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[DBS]Browning

On the new visibility system

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With the alternative view mode enabled from a distance the aircraft are much more easy to spot in fact they look gigantic. Unfortunately, when zooming in from distance the aircraft get smaller, much smaller. (Its the reverse of what should be happening) What is even worse as you approach aircraft from a distance there is a certain point as you close with the target where they are appear smaller without zooming. This makes spotting closer contact more difficult than before. So it seems the trade off is see then from much further away but lose sight of them at a closer distance. I hope server admins using the alternative view are taking note of this because it is making aircraft harder to spot at a shorter distance. 

 

 

 

 

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Finally had a chance for some stick time, flew in different missions with settings for both.  One of the best set of lightning sorties I've ever experienced, we used plenty of altitude keeping speeds up.  Yeah, lots of spots everywhere, but pretty much useless to range anything.  We still managed to jump contacts mainly from above, and even were ambushed a time or two ourselves.  It certainly isn't godseye SA.  Contacts that do enter your bubble get pretty hard to see, you need to be wary, nothing changed there.  It's a huge issue in what folks in VR verses those on screen are seeing, it's as if my wing and I were flying in two completely different worlds.  Things we each were seeing were radically different from the same point of view and distances.  At least we were seeing things.

 

Than the mission changed, same amount of players, accidentally launching from two separate bases, enormous time wasted finding each other, the paranoia of entering a hot zone for ground attack, can't find or spot ground targets for squat, circling forever lower and lower until finally visible.  The inevitable drop, wondering how we're still alive and where did the Luftwaffe all go?  Boring ride home, time to dump the server, who needs that.

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13 minutes ago, 6./ZG26_Custard said:

With the alternative view mode enabled from a distance the aircraft are much more easy to spot in fact they look gigantic. Unfortunately, when zooming in from distance the aircraft get smaller, much smaller. (Its the reverse of what should be happening) What is even worse as you approach aircraft from a distance there is a certain point as you close with the target where they are appear smaller without zooming. This makes spotting closer contact more difficult than before. So it seems the trade off is see then from much further away but lose sight of them at a closer distance. I hope server admins using the alternative view are taking note of this because it is making aircraft harder to spot at a shorter distance. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Oh man, that's no good.

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I just tried a little test and got surprising results.

 

QMB 8 v 8 (just to help with initial spotting) no clouds, 2000m alt in pursuit with enemy 10,000m ahead.

 

Initially no problem seeing all aircraft which are dead ahead. I see them turn towards me and then after a little bit they disappear in front of me ...just vanish! Only to re-appear at a point that I would estimate at 2000m or less and given our closing speed a point where I have lost most of my tactical advantage.

 

Easy test to make if anyone would like to confirm this. I tried different distances to see if there was a magic number where the disappeared but never found it.

 

Edit; At no point did I change the stock zoom setting...I rarely ever do.

Edited by Pict
Spelling, tweaking etc.

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41 minutes ago, [CPT]Crunch said:

It's a huge issue in what folks in VR verses those on screen are seeing, it's as if my wing and I were flying in two completely different worlds.  Things we each were seeing were radically different from the same point of view and distances.  At least we were seeing things.

 

This is the biggest thing that doesn’t get discussed enough.  VR is getting way more prevalent now, and only getting better.  Some thought needs to go into the disparity.

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Guys,

 

The long running complaint was that we had no targets rendered beyond 10km and you felt like you were in a bubble. We took endless beatings on this for years. We finally changed that and many, many users were very happy and a small minority was unhappy including our Lead Engineer who is a real pilot. The science of real world vision versus rendering on a computer is very hard to reconcile, but we have tried and spent much time and effort doing so. However, those that were previously happy with our increased visibility ranges got upset, so I ordered it to be optional and reinstate the previous visibility settings as a separate option. That's the best we can do for the moment and will satisfy the large majority of users. MP operators can decide which option they want to use. 

Han and Petrovich have tried to explain the difficulties on this subject. I suggest you try to understand their position. It is impossible to please everyone.

 

We now have other priorities to address and we will leave this subject for the foreseeable future. Making some kind of acceptable middle ground solution has not shown itself to us yet and quite frankly we have no time to chase it any more right now. Maybe later.

 

And real pilots didn't have 'zoom'. 

 

Jason

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2 hours ago, Dakpilot said:

 

Sadly the numbers say Warthunder is more popular. 

 

I truly hope as the 'game' gets more popular the majority don't get the vote, they seem to want 'easy' and 'fun' no matter how inaccurate 

 

Cheers, Dakpilot 

If alowing aditional option that is betwen full real, and full icons, alows game to get more players to enjoy playing how they wont it in MP or SP it dosent bather me what so ever how they deide to play, i still have option to play it how i wont it on server who will host it my way.

Game had icons servers from start, and you could have icons on in sp when ever you wont, it didnt bather me what so ever if players played that way.

What is clear is that there is room for option that dont have icons but makes airplanes more visable (like we had at 3.201 start, and what they added with aditional option) and if that will bring more players to game so i can get more DLC, its small price.

If there will be 3 type of servers, Full real, user frendly and icons only, no problem for me or for 95% users who play SP, and also in SP i would rather play with user frendly option then icons only, its better for imerson.

Edited by 77.CountZero

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14 minutes ago, Jason_Williams said:

 

And real pilots didn't have 'zoom'. 

 

Jason

This is precisely why the larger, scaled up silhouettes are more immersive. You can fix your eyes upon a small dot in the sky and focus on it, IRL, but we are trying to focus on pixel on pixel movement with head tracking thrown in as well. We use zoom to try to compensate for this lack of focus. Now we don't need to use it so much at all, as we can finally see the aircraft beyond doubt

 

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I did some research On the new visibility system :

 

If is very clear and no obstacles, and the jet plane cruises at 11,000m (37,000feet), from geometry results until the plane drop below horizon, is around 374km or 232 miles

 

Under ideal conditions it is limited by the angular resolution of the eye which is 0.02° and corresponds to 0.3 m at a 1 km distance.

 

If the plane has a wingspan of 15 m * Fw 190 * then the average person should just be able to see it at 45 km

 

If the plane has a wingspan of 30 m *B17* then the average person should just be able to see it at 90 km.

 

For  large contrails  then the average person should just be able to see it at 180 kms.

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This is what i see most of the time when we do pass people as the video shown.. the computer drawn stuff is never realistic enough but it comes down to the limitation of the equipment I would say.

 

 

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44 minutes ago, Jason_Williams said:

And real pilots didn't have 'zoom'. 

 

Haahaha so why your "Lead Engineer I am real pilot mode' renders the planes only visible when fully zoomed in ? If his equation for visibility is true what zoom is used there?

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1 hour ago, Jason_Williams said:

Guys,

 

The long running complaint was that we had no targets rendered beyond 10km and you felt like you were in a bubble. We took endless beatings on this for years. We finally changed that and many, many users were very happy and a small minority was unhappy including our Lead Engineer who is a real pilot. The science of real world vision versus rendering on a computer is very hard to reconcile, but we have tried and spent much time and effort doing so. However, those that were previously happy with our increased visibility ranges got upset, so I ordered it to be optional and reinstate the previous visibility settings as a separate option. That's the best we can do for the moment and will satisfy the large majority of users. MP operators can decide which option they want to use. 

Han and Petrovich have tried to explain the difficulties on this subject. I suggest you try to understand their position. It is impossible to please everyone.

 

We now have other priorities to address and we will leave this subject for the foreseeable future. Making some kind of acceptable middle ground solution has not shown itself to us yet and quite frankly we have no time to chase it any more right now. Maybe later.

 

And real pilots didn't have 'zoom'. 

 

Jason

 

Question:  Is the 'Normal' setting being put forth still an enhancement over what it was pre-Bodenplatte release, or is it essentially the same (the so called '10k bubble' when spotting airborne bogeys)?  In other words, are we still able to see things at a longer range than before, for example if sun is glinting off of them, contrailing, etc, or other particular conditions?

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2 minutes ago, SeaSerpent said:

 

Question:  Is the 'Normal' setting being put forth still an enhancement over what it was pre-Bodenplatte release, or is it essentially the same (the so called '10k bubble' when spotting airborne bogeys)?  In other words, are we still able to see things at a longer range than before, for example if sun is glinting off of them, contrailing, etc, or other particular conditions?

 

The normal setting is the EXACT same setting we had before Hotfix B. I'm not sure why you are confused.

 

Also, those saying the visibility in 'more real' setting in Hotfix C somehow is the old '10km bubble' is purely wrong and just trying to cause trouble. Planes are still drawn out way past 10km with all the same properties, but their LODs are the 'correct' size, but with the limitations of our monitors they only seem to disappear. There was no roll-back to pre-3.201 as some have said. 

 

Regardless, we can NEVER match true life visibility, we can only approximate. Making a so called 'in between' will still be imperfect and you'll still complain and we do not have a technical solution to what you call 'in between' as I have said above. I've discussed this with the team since I arrived in Moscow. There is no easy answer. 

 

Jason

34 minutes ago, JG700_Benek said:

 

Haahaha so why your "Lead Engineer I am real pilot mode' renders the planes only visible when fully zoomed in ? If his equation for visibility is true what zoom is used there?

 

His opinion based on his flying experience is that real-life visibility is about 10km or shorter with typical haze and lighting. There are a million factors that we can't model though unfortunately.
 

We've survived with the 10km limit for many years and now we have improved the long-range view system and the vast majority of users like it better. However, we have given you another option if you feel it's too generous.

 

Jason

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Overall its a knockout, us yanks and our isle allies are in for the long haul.  You don't like it, flip the switch.  Thanks for the option Big J, enjoy your stay in Moscow, tell the fella's us unionized 38 drivers are throwing them a big old salute.  Thinking we can spare a few for lend lease in a while.

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34 minutes ago, Jason_Williams said:

 

The normal setting is the EXACT same setting we had before Hotfix B. I'm not sure why you are confused.

 

Also, those saying the visibility in 'more real' setting in Hotfix C somehow is the old '10km bubble' is purely wrong and just trying to cause trouble. Planes are still drawn out way past 10km with all the same properties, but their LODs are the 'correct' size, but with the limitations of our monitors they only seem to disappear. There was no roll-back to pre-3.201 as some have said. 

 

 

 

My mistake, I meant to ask if the 'Expert' settings were an enhancement, not the 'Normal' settings, but you've answered my main question, nevertheless:  In Expert setting, planes are still drawn out way past 10km but with correct LOD's and it isn't a rollback pre-3.201.  Cool.

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The spotting distance without the alternative visibility checked is now definitely much further than a 10 km bubble.  Even though real pilots don't have "zoom" without the "alternative visibility" checked the zoom function works as intended. 

 

This view is about 25 km away (without any zoom)

 

2030502978_Normalview.thumb.png.03e2bdb6540c21bc4e0f2e9ebf33f4e7.png

 

I am very grateful and definitely appreciate all the work that the Devs are doing to have given us 2 options but purely from a personal viewpoint, I can't see myself ever wanting to use the alternative setting.

Edit: On that note, I evoke LukeFF to bring forth the dead Equidae and hit it with a big stick.

Edited by 6./ZG26_Custard
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1 minute ago, [CPT]CptJackSparrow said:

Some guys are ass men, some are leg men and some are tit men. Who's to say they are wrong?

Some like all 3 ;)

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2 hours ago, Jason_Williams said:

And real pilots didn't have 'zoom'. 

 

Jason

Hope, this is kind of joke (very good one actually), otherwise, it is absolute non-understanding of the issue...

Edited by CSW_Hot_Dog

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36 minutes ago, [CPT]CptJackSparrow said:

Options are a good thing in my opinion. Some guys are ass men, some are leg men and some are tit men. Who's to say they are wrong?

 

But the fake tit men are still wrong, not as much as the fake ass men, but the fake leg men are just a bit weird. 

 

Fortunately the lead engineer preferes natural beauty so there is hope

 

Cheers, Dakpilot 

 

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4 minutes ago, Dakpilot said:

Fortunately the lead engineer preferes natural beauty so there is hope

The natural beauty of a nearly 10 year old graphics engine designed initially for RoF, a game with closing speeds of 300 km/h, yes. 
I'd rather prefer some makeup on this old lady then. 

Edited by Spicysauced
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1 minute ago, Spicysauced said:

The natural beauty of a nearly 10 year old graphics engine designed initially for RoF, a game with closing speeds of 300 km/h, yes. 
I'd rather prefer some makeup on this old lady then. 

 

'Facepalm' 

 

Did it just not get updated with increased render distance

 

Cheers, Dakpilot 

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1 minute ago, Dakpilot said:

Did it just not get updated with increased render distance

Yes, it appeared to me you were opposing the new system, this was my answer. 

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Just now, Spicysauced said:

Yes, it appeared to me you were opposing the new system, this was my answer. 

 

I was referring to AnPetrovich lead engineer preference for realistic (natural) spotting distance.. 

 

His experience aligns with mine

 

I was probably trying to be too clever, don't worry about it

 

Cheers, Dakpilot 

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3 hours ago, Jason_Williams said:

 

 

And real pilots didn't have 'zoom'. 

 

Jason


And there's the nail on the head. Complaining about contacts becoming unrealistically smaller when using unrealistic zoom. Simple solution...avoid the unrealistic scaling by not using the unrealistic zoom. :)

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19 minutes ago, J3Hetzer said:


And there's the nail on the head. Complaining about contacts becoming unrealistically smaller when using unrealistic zoom. Simple solution...avoid the unrealistic scaling by not using the unrealistic zoom. :)

 

Next example of non-understanding of "zoom issue". Its like beating dead horse, someone will never understand, why we have zoom in game no matter how hard and exactly you try to explain them. If you are just a little bit interested in the topic, i will explain it in 3 points.

 

1) The better FOV and the better resolution, both is better for pilot.

2) Real pilot have real FOV and real resolution at the same time

3) In game, on LCD screen, you can choose between:

     -real-like resolution and very poor FOV at the same time

     -real-like FOV and very poor resolution at the same time

     -anything in-between, so some kind of poor resolution a and poor FOV at the same time

 

So in any case, you are in all possible options (zoomed in, zoomed out, anything between) in worse situation, then real pilot. If you dont understand that think, or you dont want to, there is nothink to say about.

Edited by CSW_Hot_Dog
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Just now, CSW_Hot_Dog said:

 

Next example of non-understanding of "zoom issue". Its like beating dead horse, someone will never understand, why we have zoom in game no matter how hard and exactly you try to explain them. If you are just a little interested in topic, i will explain it in 3 points.

 

1) The better FOV and the better resolution, both is better for pilot.

2) Real pilot have real FOV and real resolution at the same time

3) In game, on LCD screen, you can choose between:

     -real-like resolution and very poor FOV at the same time

     -real-like FOV and very poor resolution at the same time

     -anything in-between, so some kind of poor resolution a and poor FOV at the same time

 

So in any case, you are in all possible options (zoomed in, zoomed out, anything between) in worse situation, then real pilot. If you dont understand that think, or you dont want to, there is nothink to say about.


I understand perfectly the reasons why zoom is implemented in flight sims. My subjective stance is I don't give a hoot for it. All I need is to be able to see *something* at a realistic range in VR and the "Expert" setting does that. Online I'd prefer the non-expert alternative, to reduce the huge advantage non-VR players have.

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A quick QMB test of both settings (non-VR, 1920x1080, 50", LED TV, HDMI, GTX 1660 Ti - 6GB, settings Ultra with HDR and SSAO off, all other boxes checked, landcape detail: Sharp, VSync + 60fps frame limiter) appeared to me that:

 

Alternate mode makes the plane easier to see at co-alt or above but, makes the planes blend into the ground to the point I barely can reacquire visual if I lose them. It seems worse than before the major patch release.

Non-Alternate mode makes the planes still spot-able at distances greater than 15km but they don't "stand out" at co-alt or above.  The plane models are a bit easier to see over trees/town clutter but, it's not excessive. It does seem like a very reasonable improvement over the previous 10km over-ground spotting.  

 

These are just my observations, nothing more.  Plz no crucify. 

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15 minutes ago, Mobile_BBQ said:

Alternate mode makes the plane easier to see at co-alt or above but, makes the planes blend into the ground to the point I barely can reacquire visual if I lose them. It seems worse than before the major patch release.

Non-Alternate mode makes the planes still spot-able at distances greater than 15km but they don't "stand out" at co-alt or above.  The plane models are a bit easier to see over trees/town clutter but, it's not excessive. It does seem like a very reasonable improvement over the previous 10km over-ground spotting.  

 

I was happy to talk more about boobs butts and legs but this is spot on. +1

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21 minutes ago, Mobile_BBQ said:

These are just my observations, nothing more.  Plz no crucify. 

 

 

 What we really need to know is at what distance can a pilot see a naked woman sunbathing in her garden when the plane is two miles from the runway threshold.:) 

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I do have a bit of a technical question:   

 

I am interested in making a no-commentary gameplay demonstration video of the 2 modes.  Is it possible to record a track then switch the between the effects on a single recorded track?

That way the action for both tracks will be identical.  It will only be the visual effects that are different.   

1 minute ago, DD_Arthur said:

 

 

 What we really need to know is at what distance can a pilot see a naked woman sunbathing in her garden when the plane is two miles from the runway threshold.:) 

 

Depends on if she has one of those reflective panel thingys.    

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7 hours ago, 6./ZG26_Custard said:

I hope server admins using the alternative view are taking note of this because it is making aircraft harder to spot at a shorter distance. 

 

 

 

 

 

It isn't making them more difficult to spot at that distance.

 

It's making them *as* difficult as it always was.  But taken on the whole, it's better overall.

Edited by hrafnkolbrandr

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6 hours ago, Jason_Williams said:

Han and Petrovich have tried to explain the difficulties on this subject. I suggest you try to understand their position. It is impossible to please everyone.

Anyone have a link to this explanation?

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2 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

Anyone have a link to this explanation?

 

Lol.  Look straight above your post.;)

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Yep, earlier I put random numbers to it saying the old version was like 50% of what you'd expect to see. The big patch was like 160%. Less realistic but really nice to have a step in the right direction. The new version feels like (I said 60% previously) 75%. 

Spotting is much better than it used to be.  

 

Flying more with the new system has eased my concerns over the rollback - I'd go so far as to say the optional "easier spotting" setting should not be in the game as it could lead to confusion, particularly on multiplayer.  
 

Thank you to the devs for putting some work in on this, it is greatly appreciated. And yeah I'll nitpick still but please don't take it as an insult. Spotting was one of the biggest issues in the game and it makes a huge difference seeing it fixed (or at least, alleviated).  


Finally, if you flew a bit on the easy spotting system, give yourself some time to adjust back. If you switch between easy and realistic spotting you will feel blind and it will frustrate you more than just learning the new system.

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1 hour ago, peregrine7 said:

Finally, if you flew a bit on the easy spotting system, give yourself some time to adjust back. If you switch between easy and realistic spotting you will feel blind and it will frustrate you more than just learning the new system.

Yeah the reason I will stay away from this enhancement is that I play other sims that don’t have this feature. That’s the trouble with getting hooked on “features” in sims instead of straight realism. All realism is the same generally. All “features” like icons etc are different. If you want the experience and practice to be the same across sims the best thing to do for yourself is to disable features and gameplay aids. 

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