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On the new visibility system

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2 hours ago, III./SG77-G_Boelcke said:

People talking about fun remember about ground attackers or bombers that go stealth. Long range unrealistic visibility is not fun for bombers. And remember that i am not asking for unreal low visibility only for more realism.The better equilibrium is more realism. Unrealistic visibility will fuck the fun of ones that like to draw tactics and plan their flight.

The tactic was to get an escort, they can see, they can respond, and fly in mass with defensive armament.  What realism was there in solo bombers flying in an invisible fish bowl again?

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Posted (edited)

 

These are from 38,000ft. all small aircraft. Two of them close tot he deck and over trees. They are very easy to spot, despite youtube compression and a shitty window.

 

that being said, the new changes I think are good. I tested both and unless placebo even the expert mode is better than it was last patch. Will need to test more extensively though. Anyways I appreciate the new options.

Edited by YIPPEE

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Posted (edited)
Spoiler

Years ago, the medical community warned television consumers about the dangers of x-radiation from TV sets. While the concern was legitimate, the danger is not an issue today because of the inventions of LCD and plasma televisions. These modern flat panel screens do not emit radiation.

 

However, many people still worry that they may injure their eyes by sitting too close to the TV. While sitting close to the television will not cause injury to your eyes or vision, close viewing may cause temporary eye strain or eye fatigue.

 

So how close is too close? What is the ideal distance for watching television? The answer may be surprising to some, but there really is no magic formula for calculating the precise distance.

 

Ideal TV Viewing Distance and Position

Eye care professionals recommend sitting approximately eight to ten feet away from the TV screen. The general rule of thumb is to be at least 5 times the distance from the screen as the screen is wide. For example, if your television is 32 inches wide, the optimal viewing distance is 160 inches or about 13 feet.

 

However, most optometrists and ophthalmologists agree that the best distance for television viewing is the distance that feels most comfortable for you. As long as you can see the screen clearly without experiencing discomfort, the distance is probably correct.

 

Besides viewing distance, the position of your television in relation to where you are sitting is also important for preventing eye strain. Whether you hang your TV on the wall or set it on a tabletop, try to position it at eye level or lower to prevent straining your vertical eye muscles or your neck. Constantly forcing your eyes to look up will eventually cause the eye muscles to fatigue.

 

Well if you have a 32 Inches screen your doctor  recomend you being able to spot  ( a 6 pixel ) planes at 13 feet away. 👁️

 

image.jpeg.a9c918046ebf98f7b80aaeff5267e027.jpeg

 

 

 

Edited by [LAS]URU-Panzer

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What's the word on Contrail visibility now in the new "Expert" Setting?  I haven't had a situation yet to check this out, but I assume contrails should be easily visible from -long- distances, just like in real life, or is it back to some very low distance? 

 

(Also. what about smoking aircraft, leaking aircraft, etc..)

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1 hour ago, SeaSerpent said:

 

Its entirely possible that I've been doing flight sims before you were born, have several thousand multiplayer hours in 777 Studios products alone, am familiar with past decision making regarding design issues that have divided the community, and I can also read the somewhat finalized, done-deal tone in Han's words ( "there are no counter-arguments were provided which may dissuade me. . ") Personally, I hope you are right and continued tweaking is something that happens.  But I don't appreciate you calling me "naive", pal. 

 

Try reading my post again. I didn't call you anything whatsoever. I said that believing that the feature was set in stone would be naive, meaning me, hence why I won't do that. Try using your apparently vast "experience" in this world to not be so damned salty, and to not make assumptions about the age and experience of someone you know precisely nothing about, "pal".

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3 hours ago, Tasmanaut said:

exactly. And there are those that will look down upon this 'normal' setting as using noob easy mode ala icons... When all it does is make the game more playable. Something in between would be great

I don`t care. Have your 4K acreen with expert setting and choke on it. I pick normal visibility and game is finally playable for me.

Thank you developers!

3 hours ago, SeaSerpent said:

It seems like continued tuning of the existing system would have been the better choice to me, instead of forcing users to make a binary choice between two divisive extremes. 

 

At least a choice is created when there was none. How obtuse you have to be not to understand it?

3 hours ago, RedKestrel said:

I spotted it right away too...but in-game I'm much worse.

I believe his point was that the hotfix spotting over the forest was actually pretty reasonable given the distance and the background.

Who cares, there is no realism in one losing sight of an object he was closely tracing anyway.  Which is what happened before 3.201.

1 hour ago, LLv34_Flanker said:

S!

 

 Han´s picture of that Su-25 just has one flaw. It is a STATIC picture. Human eye picks up MOVEMENT against background. Sure the new visibility can be a bit over the top in certain situations, but if tweaked it could be a very good compromise between playability and realism. If people complain that they can not sneak with impunity on targets anymore and rack up their virtual score..tough luck. Get an escort or use clouds etc. Even with the "alternate visibility" enabled and server full of people the fights were not in one big cluster feck. We could still engage targets and sneak past prowling planes. Clouds played a role concealing planes. Why does everyone claim that harder = realism? I can see better stuff around me in a real plane than in this game with pre-patch settings or the hotfix..and I use glasses. In game it feels like "flying with binoculars" as someone pointed out earlier.

Yes, movement plus actual real eyesight, not watching at 2D 24`  screen.

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10 minutes ago, Mac_Messer said:

At least a choice is created when there was none. How obtuse you have to be not to understand it?

 

 

I understand the choice, but it isn't the decision that I would have preferred.  The question is, do you understand that sometimes the most correct answer is sometimes found in between two extremes, and that reasonable people, who see airplanes close and afar with their own eyes, might disagree with a design decision that forces one to make a hard choice between those two poles?

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Ofcourse I understand, but this is not the way of critique of creating a choice. We can always tune it, but two separate solution options of the same issue is the brst possible start.

 

On pc there are thousands of different setups. Any choice created that lets the most possible user configs enjoy the game deserves applause.  

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Posted (edited)
10 minutes ago, Mac_Messer said:

Ofcourse I understand, but this is not the way of critique of creating a choice. We can always tune it, but two separate solution options of the same issue is the brst possible start.

 

On pc there are thousands of different setups. Any choice created that lets the most possible user configs enjoy the game deserves applause.  

 

So say you.  And like I said to Goffik, I -hope- that they do continue to tune and optimize, because I think that despite being almost airquake-like, there were actually some promising things going on in the initial 100k interpretation, that simply do not appear to be the case now after the hotfix.  But as I also noted, the tone of Han's post indicated a certain finality to it, which doesn't lead me to believe that you should get too hopeful about that happening. 

Edited by SeaSerpent

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Posted (edited)

 

I much prefer the hotfix version rather than 3.201 - it looks more real to me.  Yes contacts were easier to see in 3.201 but more gamey.  It all depends on the player though, so more options is ok.  My real hope is that the "expert" servers don't enable easy spotting.

 

Still fun though.

 

von Tom

Edited by von_Tom
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Posted (edited)

I respect Han`s opinion on one setting being more realistic than the other. Fine, I can live with reverting to unrealistic setting if that lets me play the game the way  I want. TBH I did think the devs will leave it at hotfix stance and just brush away the feedback, but they didnt`, to their proffesionalism.

Edited by Mac_Messer

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Posted (edited)
18 minutes ago, von_Tom said:

I much prefer the hotfix version rather than 3.201

I completely agree. With alternative visibility setting enabled the aircraft look huge at a distance but when zooming in they get smaller or in some cases disappear (on my setup anyway). I really appreciate that the Devs have tried to give the community a choice. I like you will be looking for servers with the alternative option switched off.    

 

Edit: I flew online tonight and the server I was on had it enabled, unfortunately.  

Edited by 6./ZG26_Custard
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Posted (edited)

Did any of you guys get 3.201 version of visability, my understanding is that when option is on (normal settings) its what we got with 3.201, and when option is off (expert) we get 3.201b ranges. 

But in my test i get only 3.201b visability ranges and lod on any settings, and even when i try costum with aditional option on and off, im not able to see any change.

 

So like Sticks post im not able to see visibility per 3.201

 

im on steam (my hotfix was around 200mb, 27" monitor 1920x1080 res) maybe game didnt properly updated if others see 3.201 larg contacts as when option is turned on.

 

34 minutes ago, VBF-12_Stick-95 said:

I've done some testing of "Normal" (new visibility per v3.201b) and "Expert" (old visibility per v3.102). Please note that neither of these modes is per v3.201.

I find only a slight difference between Normal and Expert. With Normal mode the planes appear a little larger and can be seen a little longer beyond the 9.5km range that registers with object markers than can the Expert size and range.

 

Considering anecdotal evidence from WWII pilots (who spoke of seeing aircraft at 30+km), to me the Normal view distance would be a better choice for the server and, IMO,  even that seems short of what it should be.

Edited by 77.CountZero

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Asking again:  What of the Contrail distances now in the Expert view setting?

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Posted (edited)
1 minute ago, SeaSerpent said:

Asking again:  What of the Contrail distances now in the Expert view setting?

I could see them from distances as of 3.201b, as far as posible ( i dont think contarils distanc visibility changes with normal or expert as it didnt change with any hotfix )

Edited by 77.CountZero
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Server settings are a good enough solution I'd say. Gives people choice - insofar as there are like three servers to pick from that have any players... - and offers something to both sides. Those wishing for a 25km bubble or somrthing are of course left out, but hey... it's something?

 

 

Anyway, kinda wish they had also tackled the LOD/zoom issue, but here's hoping for further quick hotfixes for that.

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Ok i re-read Han post and i think i see why in my QM tests i dont see any differance:

 

"So to solve this dilemma at least somehow and not do LODs size changes forward and back under pressure of claims – we have decided to add a specific game (server) difficulty setting for it. It is turned on in “Normal” and turned off in “Expert”, also it can be turned on and off separately in “Custom”. So, you may get it in the new update right now (Andrew sneaksie have posted more details on the update).""

 

It seams from this that differance is active only in multiplayer. And thats why when testing it in SP i cant see any differance.

 

Ca anyone els confirm this, thanks

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No it's in QM as well. If you click on Custom you can turn it on/off at will otherwise it's enabled and disabled as Han said above.

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4 minutes ago, wellenbrecher said:

No it's in QM as well. If you click on Custom you can turn it on/off at will otherwise it's enabled and disabled as Han said above.

Yes i try it but i dont see any differance when i spawn, both option look like they are 3.201b vis range, can you try it and see if it works for you , so normal is bigger load and longer ranges then expert, thanks

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2 hours ago, 77.CountZero said:

Yes i try it but i dont see any differance when i spawn, both option look like they are 3.201b vis range, can you try it and see if it works for you , so normal is bigger load and longer ranges then expert, thanks

Ah gotcha. Sorry I misunderstood you completely.

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Did a mission in the scripted campaign for ten days of autumn, mission #7, comparison with alternate on vs off... 

when you take off and see the fireball over the city in alternate... you see the blobs...  

when off, it’s almost like dots... better.

above the clouds youll see the inbound bombers as blobs in alternate...

off, you see dots.. some flicker of sun if it catches.. I like it

alternate on is much like the update before the hot fix.  Alternate off, actually feels a lot better.. no blobbyness, aircraft aren’t huge then when you zoom in the get tiny... 

i feel this was a good measure between what was ‘fixed’ 

 

Just my two sense... we’ll see in no when I get a go at it :) 

 

thanks devs.

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Posted (edited)
6 hours ago, III./SG77-G_Boelcke said:

I see SU25 flying over the middle road. See it after zooming the Photo (im smartphone)

 

Interesting, knowing where look (be read your post) I see immediately having give up after some attempts. :)

 

5 hours ago, [CPT]Crunch said:

The tactic was to get an escort, 

 

 

IRL this advice don't work well in Battle of Britain, LW bombers have escort, and even so the outnumbered British fighters shoot down a lot of them. 😜

 

Precisely because the fighters knew where await for them, due the "vision beyond reach"  (Radar), like the game "alternate... reality". 😀

 

Edited by Sokol1

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Well tried a couple of career missions in VR, and the enhanced visibility is a marked improvement, really really good, at least flying in VR.

Ground targets are also much more visible, and I found no jarring inconsistencies even when zooming in, probably due to the fact that zoom in VR is very underpowered compared to 2D pancake zoom.

 

 

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Had a chance to play some QMBs. In VR, the difference is subtle but noticeable.

With "alternate", you can see a noticeable black dot at 8-10 km. With "regular", it is smaller and hard to spot farther than around 5 km. In the 0-5 km range though, it looks the same.

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13 hours ago, LLv34_Flanker said:

Human eye picks up MOVEMENT against background.

Exactly. But this shows us that devs stance isSpotting has to be as hard as possible in this game engine. 
 

 

13 hours ago, LLv34_Flanker said:

Why does everyone claim that harder = realism?

Because if its harder they feel closer to a real Hartmann etc. Its a psychological thing. 

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Posted (edited)

It's definitely working in SP and i wouldn't call the difference subtle. Same 16 planes at 10 km distance in these screenshots, one time with "realistic" mode and one time with alternate mode.

2019_10_5__11_42_50.thumb.jpg.dedc62b5ff6d6ea750dc8114527cfb87.jpg2019_10_5__11_43_35.thumb.jpg.89bb8ec9a54f98e2dc8a1eae819f35ad.jpg

Edited by Matt
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Posted (edited)

Thanks, i was doing more tests and i could see only big differance betwen option on or off at distances abow 9-10km. for distances below that to me contacts seam to behave same on both options, on bigger distances on alternate on i could see contacts as bigger and track them easyer, then on alternate off where they were there but mutch smaller. At distances 0 to ~9 they seam almost same and not big differance betwen options.

Edited by 77.CountZero

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42 minutes ago, Matt said:

It's definitely working in SP and i wouldn't call the difference subtle. Same 16 planes at 10 km distance in these screenshots, one time with "realistic" mode and one time with alternate mode.

2019_10_5__11_42_50.thumb.jpg.dedc62b5ff6d6ea750dc8114527cfb87.jpg2019_10_5__11_43_35.thumb.jpg.89bb8ec9a54f98e2dc8a1eae819f35ad.jpg

Great example mate. 
That we even have a discussion about this here is beyond me actually. 
see more from farther away = better

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Posted (edited)

I still dont get it. Why they didnt went with "compromise middle range visibility solution". This way ppl will be confused, a different spotting mechanism in each server. Basicaly a different game. 40km was too much, 10km is too short....40km was on top of that, super odd, because when using zoom plane shapes are smaller.

Edited by =VARP=Tvrdi
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4 minutes ago, =VARP=Tvrdi said:

I still dont get it. Why they didnt went with "compromise middle range visibility solution". This way ppl will be confused, a different spotting mechanism in each server. Basicaly a different game. 40km was too much, 10km is too short....40km was on top of that, super odd, because when using zoom plane shapes are smaller.

 

I'm happy with the two options, but I do recognise that it leaves little room for change.

 

If you want Expert spotting to be easier, you will now simply be told "Use Alternate Spotting!".

If you want Alternate Spotting to be harder, you will now be told "Use Expert Spotting".

 

Neither spotting system is likely to be tweaked towards the other now, even though so many wish for a middle ground.

 

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Posted (edited)

I have tested in single player with alternate on and at 8km a plane actually appears smaller than it does at 12km... how servers and people like this mode is beyond me. 

 

The 3.102b expert mode on the other hand has a nice gradual decrease in plane size and contrast up until around 20km view range. It is around here that you will simply be unable to see the plane against the sky anymore as it becomes more transparent as a pixel (it still renders out to 100km). Contrails and ships can still be seen at much greater view out to around 50km. This was the perfect compromise setting already.

 

I just hope some servers clue into that... as right now there are no ‘options’ for those of us that want the more realistic setting.

 

I use only VR

Edited by SCG_Wulfe
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Posted (edited)

I dont agree with forcing one view system only, not everything revolves around MP players.

 

I only play VR and SP. More options are good for us SP players. With "alternate", I can actually see planes at a reasonable distance.

Edited by Sgt_Joch

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Posted (edited)
26 minutes ago, SCG_Wulfe said:

I have tested in single player with alternate on and at 8km a plane actually appears smaller than it does at 12km... how servers and people like this mode is beyond me. 

 

The 3.102b expert mode on the other hand has a nice gradual decrease in plane size and contrast up until around 20km view range. It is around here that you will simply be unable to see the plane against the sky anymore as it becomes more transparent as a pixel (it still renders out to 100km). Contrails and ships can still be seen at much greater view out to around 50km. This was the perfect compromise setting already.

 

I just hope some servers clue into that... as right now there are no ‘options’ for those of us that want the more realistic setting.

 

I use only VR

I'm pretty sure the alternate mode is not what the original BP release did.I've followed planes from a runway and lost them after 2k. what i wanted was being able to see without having to zoom in like it was. planes would just stand out flying over an airfield. they've toned it down for short range which is where the problem lay. I didn't care about longer range.

This is annoying as there's 2 options now so what was the point of making it weaker? hopefully it's going to get a bit better with updates. 

 

 

Edited by stalled

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1 minute ago, SCG_Wulfe said:

I just hope some servers clue into that as right now there are no ‘options’ for those of us that want the more realistic setting.

^^^ This right here.  I'm going to take a break from Il-2 if the current server trend continues as I don't want to form bad habits and get lazy using the easy setting.  The wait for the next TAW is going to be even more agonizing.

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34 minutes ago, =VARP=Tvrdi said:

I still dont get it. Why they didnt went with "compromise middle range visibility solution". This way ppl will be confused, a different spotting mechanism in each server. Basicaly a different game. 40km was too much, 10km is too short....40km was on top of that, super odd, because when using zoom plane shapes are smaller.

Because what you get with expert mode ( alternative off) is what devs belive is most realistic.

And some ppl dont wont that, they wont more user frendly version that others dont wont, so to please both camps there is option. Play on server that hase your one.

There cant be mddle one option for all, as its not realistic enought for purists, and not user frendly enought for others.

Now if they wont to tweek anything they can do that on version where alternative on is used to get it how user frendly crowd wonts it, and you have realistic one for purists untuched.

 

Any setting in realisam can be considered as divider , GPS on GPS off  its like differant game if servers have option to have it on or off, how can i play like that 😄

More option is good and make it easy for devs as it would never happend that they could make vis ranges for all, now you just bather server hosts to get it how you like or play on server that has it how you like, mutch better then bathering devs after 10th hotfix on vis ranges when it still dont get it right for all.

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3 minutes ago, 77.CountZero said:

Because what you get with expert mode ( alternative off) is what devs belive is most realistic.

And some ppl dont wont that, they wont more user frendly version that others dont wont, so to please both camps there is option. Play on server that hase your one.

There cant be mddle one option for all, as its not realistic enought for purists, and not user frendly enought for others.

Now if they wont to tweek anything they can do that on version where alternative on is used to get it how user frendly crowd wonts it, and you have realistic one for purists untuched.

 

Any setting in realisam can be considered as divider , GPS on GPS off  its like differant game if servers have option to have it on or off, how can i play like that 😄

More option is good and make it easy for devs as it would never happend that they could make vis ranges for all, now you just bather server hosts to get it how you like or play on server that has it how you like, mutch better then bathering devs after 10th hotfix on vis ranges when it still dont get it right for all.

considering I nearly quit all together over spotting and people probably have, giving people choice is good like you say. The "Hardcores" will always have a hardcore server. They're the ones the devs don't have to worry about losing. Making the sim accessible and enjoyable to everyone should be the goal. A bigger user base is better for everyone 

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Posted (edited)
10 minutes ago, 77.CountZero said:

Because what you get with expert mode ( alternative off) is what devs belive is most realistic.

And some ppl dont wont that, they wont more user frendly version that others dont wont, so to please both camps there is option. Play on server that hase your one.

There cant be mddle one option for all, as its not realistic enought for purists, and not user frendly enought for others.

Now if they wont to tweek anything they can do that on version where alternative on is used to get it how user frendly crowd wonts it, and you have realistic one for purists untuched.

 

Any setting in realisam can be considered as divider , GPS on GPS off  its like differant game if servers have option to have it on or off, how can i play like that 😄

More option is good and make it easy for devs as it would never happend that they could make vis ranges for all, now you just bather server hosts to get it how you like or play on server that has it how you like, mutch better then bathering devs after 10th hotfix on vis ranges when it still dont get it right for all.

 

True, just wish there was just one solid option for those of us that want it off. Right now, all the servers have switched on alternate which isn’t even allowing us to vote with our numbers in a server that has the alternate turned off.

Edited by SCG_Wulfe

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