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On the new visibility system

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It seems like continued tuning of the existing system would have been the better choice to me, instead of forcing users to make a binary choice between two divisive extremes. 

 

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Is the "expert" mode going to be the exact same as hotfix #1?   That's the one I really liked.  

If so, then I hope the servers I like agree.   

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1 minute ago, Tasmanaut said:

exactly. And there are those that will look down upon this 'normal' setting as using noob easy mode ala icons... When all it does is make the game more playable. Something in between would be great

 

As Han wrote the realistic setting is considered realistic. I do so too and I have private flying experience that proves the Il-2 implementation to be very close to my experiences. 

 

Tweak down the 'unrealistic' (alternative) setting in the future? Maybe - but I like my realistic option the way it is and I will probably sometimes like to fly the unrealistic one - there's no shame in that. 

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3 minutes ago, SeaSerpent said:

It seems like continued tuning of the existing system would have been the better choice to me, instead of forcing users to make a binary choice between two divisive extremes. 

 

 

Who's to say that won't happen? This addition is their immediate reaction to try and stop people getting upset about being given something and then having it taken away. Now that people are able to play whichever way they want and remain happy, the devs have given themselves time to properly refine the system. Seems like a good call to me, or at least the best one they can make right now.

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2 minutes ago, 216th_Jordan said:

 

As Han wrote the realistic setting is considered realistic. I do so too and I have private flying experience that proves the Il-2 implementation to be very close to my experiences. 

 

Tweak down the 'unrealistic' (alternative) setting in the future? Maybe - but I like my realistic option the way it is and I will probably sometimes like to fly the unrealistic one - there's no shame in that. 

 

Yes to this.  If the devs want to take more liberty with the "non-expert" setting, I'm ok with that.   I just hope that they are a lot more "delicate" with further fine tuning of the expert mode.

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Is the option to turn off/on still having the increased distance turning off/on just the larger LOD size if set to Normal? As long as we still have increased distances for expert - guess that would have some servers that would be like having ICONs on. I dont fly those ICONs on servers anymore. Am hoping the expert servers are like the hotfix.

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People talking about fun remember about ground attackers or bombers that go stealth. Long range unrealistic visibility is not fun for bombers. And remember that i am not asking for unreal low visibility only for more realism.The better equilibrium is more realism. Unrealistic visibility will fuck the fun of ones that like to draw tactics and plan their flight.

Edited by III./SG77-G_Boelcke
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Just now, III./SG77-G_Boelcke said:

People talking about fun remember about ground attackers or bombers that go stealth. Long range unrealistic visibility is not Fun for bombers. And remember that i am not asking for unreal low visibility only for more realístico possible. The better equilibrium is more realistic visibility.

and you have that now with expert setting, and if server wonts to host for example full realistic they will have that option, as like you see devs think what was done with yesterdays hot fix is most realistic.

And for servers that wont to have user frendlyer option they can run same settings like expert but with alternate visability on.

 

With time you will see by server choices what is better option for players, or even if both are equaly popular and fit for what servers offer.

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Definitely not going to be flying on a server that uses "Normal" settings if that is exactly the same as it was at Bodenplatte release.  Might as well just fly on an Icon Server.  I was awed by finally being able to see things easily, but with some reflection, realized it was totally unrealistic.  As for "Expert" settings, well, my initial impression from last night of the B hotfix was that it was only slightly improved from the 10k bubble, better, but a little too much of a step back considering what is apparently possible now...So basically, it's back to that I guess.  I'm not very happy about that, but apparently we don't have much choice.  I had been hoping for some kind of compromise.

11 minutes ago, Goffik said:

 

Who's to say that won't happen? This addition is their immediate reaction to try and stop people getting upset about being given something and then having it taken away. Now that people are able to play whichever way they want and remain happy, the devs have given themselves time to properly refine the system. Seems like a good call to me, or at least the best one they can make right now.

Did you read Han's post?

Edited by SeaSerpent
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I Must bought a 43 inch TV  4K   because the planes were 4 to 6 very small pixels on screen, in my old monitor was very painfull gameplay  . 

My gamer chair and joystick is at 1,50 metres from my screen  Now I play 1920x1080 on Nvidia 1660.

 

 

 

The airplanes are like small insects on the screen  🦗, if you fly as a fighter pilot you stay with your eyes tired   👓 after a few hours, looking at the horizon  trying to see 6 blurred pixels that are a plane, A PLANE OMG !!  . If you have your chair at 1,40 meters from the screen  ...

 

I really liked the initial state of the launch on new visibility system 

 

I must check tonight  the Hot Fixes . 👁️‍🗨️

 

 

 

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2 minutes ago, stalled said:

That's why missions with better cloud cover would work. I still had fun bombing with before hotfix

 

Well, I guess clear weather will never be a thing again on servers if that's the case.

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Panzer im not givin you advice because sometimes i play several hours, more than i should hehehe but the right thing is to take an eyes rest.

Edited by III./SG77-G_Boelcke
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3 minutes ago, III./SG77-G_Boelcke said:

If you want more visibility prove that It is more real.

its not neccesary i belive devs when they say that what they hotfix yesterday is how real visability is (this is on on expert now)

but for ppl how liked pre hotfix 3.201 visability (altarnate option now) they can play on servers that have this now and also enjoy this game.

So i can just look at servers realisam settings before i join and pick where i belong, like you go where you like per your preferance. Win Win. There is room for both camps to enjoy game.

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2 hours ago, 6./ZG26_Custard said:

Fair enough, lets try that over the Moscow map.

 

 

 

 

 

Forest background - one of hardest backgrounds to spot contacts over it because of it's diversity/jazzy.

Plus - it's in the shadow of the cloud. Lack of sun glistening and much less contrast.

 

All these aspects are affecting target spotting in our simulator. And this affecting should be presented to keep realism.

 

Here is a good example. There is a Su-25 on this image:

 

49KW6qAQ-8s.jpg

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37 minutes ago, Tasmanaut said:

right? I mean, c'mon... Now there will be a further divide. Those that use mega spotting will likely be considered noobs who fly easy mode or something... 


Not a lot of difference between those and snap-views/TrackIR/VR I guess. TrackIR, the new arcade. Which is what makes the thread truly bizarre, people complaining about being able to see planes too far away but thinking nothing of doing The Exorcist in their cockpits. Lol.

Edited by J3Hetzer
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su-25 is in that hangar on the top right 😄

Edited by 77.CountZero
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Saw it right away, just goes to show, it sometimes simply depends on where your eye lands. And Han, Custards point with that video was that you could still just barely see the planes over the woods at extreme distances which is perfectly realistic. You guys have it bang-on with the hotfix (expert mode) visibility. 

Edited by SCG_Wulfe

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2 minutes ago, SCG_Wulfe said:

Saw it right away, just goes to show, it sometimes simply depends on where your eye lands. And Han, Custards point with that video was that you could still just barely see the planes over the woods at extreme distances which is perfectly realistic. You guys have it bang-on with the hotfix (expert mode) visibility. 

I spotted it right away too...but in-game I'm much worse.

12 minutes ago, Han said:

 

Forest background - one of hardest backgrounds to spot contacts over it because of it's diversity/jazzy.

Plus - it's in the shadow of the cloud. Lack of sun glistening and much less contrast.

 

All these aspects are affecting target spotting in our simulator. And this affecting should be presented to keep realism.

 

Here is a good example. There is a Su-25 on this image:

 

49KW6qAQ-8s.jpg

I believe his point was that the hotfix spotting over the forest was actually pretty reasonable given the distance and the background.

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Anyway, now there's a choice, and not everybody flies online in this sim...

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14 minutes ago, Han said:

 

Forest background - one of hardest backgrounds to spot contacts over it because of it's diversity/jazzy.

Plus - it's in the shadow of the cloud. Lack of sun glistening and much less contrast.

 

All these aspects are affecting target spotting in our simulator. And this affecting should be presented to keep realism.

 

Here is a good example. There is a Su-25 on this image:

 

 

Su-25 for Il-2: Great Battles series confirmed.

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3 minutes ago, RedKestrel said:

I spotted it right away too...but in-game I'm much worse.

 

Well, in game it's the same, it's often simply where the eye lands.

 

I think something else that should be mentioned, is that proper tactics would dictate flying in a group of planes with the ability for any one person to be the one to spot a contact. This shared responsibility for scanning greatly increases the odds of a plane being spotted. Those who only ever fly alone are really missing out on this advantage.

Edited by SCG_Wulfe
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29 minutes ago, SeaSerpent said:

Did you read Han's post?

 

Yes I did, in full. However, thinking that something is a done deal and completely set in stone, never to be changed ever again just because one person says so on a forum, is a bit naive. 

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I don't understand why anyone would be upset by this unless I'm grossly misunderstanding the post... 

 

They're saying the server can either turn in a cheat to make planes artificially larger at distance or you can leave planes their realistic size of being super tiny and unspottable unless you know where they are... Because they would be. 

 

The system seems to work perfectly well, especially for those with higher pixel density screens. 

 

Flying with a small PPI screen is essentially the same as flying with a bad combat stick. If you're flying any of the ,3 major servers, I imagine they'll turn the spotting cheat off. Flying on Knights last night and I can see people fighting across the map at a different objective. 1440p. No spotting cheat. 

 

Is this not what people wanted?

Edited by GridiroN
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25 minutes ago, Goffik said:

 

Yes I did, in full. However, thinking that something is a done deal and completely set in stone, never to be changed ever again just because one person says so on a forum, is a bit naive. 

 

Its entirely possible that I've been doing flight sims before you were born, have several thousand multiplayer hours in 777 Studios products alone, am familiar with past decision making regarding design issues that have divided the community, and I can also read the somewhat finalized, done-deal tone in Han's words ( "there are no counter-arguments were provided which may dissuade me. . ") Personally, I hope you are right and continued tweaking is something that happens.  But I don't appreciate you calling me "naive", pal. 

Edited by SeaSerpent

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The only issue I have with the patch vs hot fix is that VR users finally felt like their handicap in long range spotting was diminished.  I never really had much of an issue spotting with a 4K tv I used, but went to VR and it was a real issue.

 

Only fix for this is to increase LOD for VR only, but to do side-by-side testing for same distance detection to ensure there is no advantage gained.  But, yes I know the LOD will change so much based on VR setup and settings.  Just talking hypothetical ideas.

 

In the end, I liked the patch version, selfishly. But can 100% see how monitor users detecting contacts at 40+km is an issue.  Glad I’m not a dev right now lol.

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5 minutes ago, SeaSerpent said:

 

Can you summarize this for people who don't speak Russian, please?

User ask them do they ever rest , and then answer is: nation needs coal! and picture:

 

Spoiler

1536155702-8327.JPG?0.3083618576176437

 

Edited by 77.CountZero

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"VR users finally felt like their handicap in long range spotting was diminished"

 

I don't get the ones using VR having so much issue spotting. People I've flown with had me switch to leading as I spotted aircraft sooner than they did. I fly VR and they weren't. They did ID sooner more often than I did.

 

Some say not having the larger LOD isn't fun. I disagree - it is fun bouncing someone who doesn't spot well.

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Its not like before patch. Before patch it does not render after 10k. It should render longer than 10k but this not implies easy to see. 20-25k can be considered absolute BVR IRL (at least for small aircraft).

 

One thing is rendering at long distance, another is visibility.

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8 minutes ago, III./SG77-G_Boelcke said:

 

One thing is rendering at long distance, another is visibility.

 

Exactly. Ground (and sea) targets needed to render at a realistic range so that bombers can line up properly at altitude. If we get to the Pacific, seeing ships and wakes at long range is essential for finding targets and on returning to the home carrier .  So increasing the rendering beyond 10k was a necessary step for SP and MP alike - congrats to the team for finding a way to do it that has not crashed our systems!   

 

As for visibility: now we have options. I always find it odd that people complain that there are options. 

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2 hours ago, SeaSerpent said:

So it's either back to very short range (10k-ish) that will continue to annoy many people, on the one hand, or else the extreme, bionic-man vision we had at Bodenplatte release, with no option for anything in between?   Why is there no consideration for a middle ground that will help satisfy both camps, instead of splitting them now along the lines of different server options?

In both cases we will be able to spot aircraft over 10k distance, it's just harder in the realistic settings. In both settings the view distances are increased over 10k like Han said in his post.

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had chance to try this new hotfix, and i try to see how big is differace betwen alternate visibility option turned on and off in costum setings, but i could not see any differance, did any one els try this on new hot fix ? can you see differance betwen option on and off ? 

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1 hour ago, Han said:

 

Forest background - one of hardest backgrounds to spot contacts over it because of it's diversity/jazzy.

Plus - it's in the shadow of the cloud. Lack of sun glistening and much less contrast.

 

All these aspects are affecting target spotting in our simulator. And this affecting should be presented to keep realism.

 

Here is a good example. There is a Su-25 on this image:

 

49KW6qAQ-8s.jpg

 

I actually saw the Su-25 immediately, despite it being a static image

Edited by =362nd_FS=RoflSeal

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S!

 

 Han´s picture of that Su-25 just has one flaw. It is a STATIC picture. Human eye picks up MOVEMENT against background. Sure the new visibility can be a bit over the top in certain situations, but if tweaked it could be a very good compromise between playability and realism. If people complain that they can not sneak with impunity on targets anymore and rack up their virtual score..tough luck. Get an escort or use clouds etc. Even with the "alternate visibility" enabled and server full of people the fights were not in one big cluster feck. We could still engage targets and sneak past prowling planes. Clouds played a role concealing planes. Why does everyone claim that harder = realism? I can see better stuff around me in a real plane than in this game with pre-patch settings or the hotfix..and I use glasses. In game it feels like "flying with binoculars" as someone pointed out earlier.

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2 hours ago, III./SG77-G_Boelcke said:

People talking about fun remember about ground attackers or bombers that go stealth. Long range unrealistic visibility is not fun for bombers. And remember that i am not asking for unreal low visibility only for more realism.The better equilibrium is more realism. Unrealistic visibility will fuck the fun of ones that like to draw tactics and plan their flight.

The tactic was to get an escort, they can see, they can respond, and fly in mass with defensive armament.  What realism was there in solo bombers flying in an invisible fish bowl again?

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These are from 38,000ft. all small aircraft. Two of them close tot he deck and over trees. They are very easy to spot, despite youtube compression and a shitty window.

 

that being said, the new changes I think are good. I tested both and unless placebo even the expert mode is better than it was last patch. Will need to test more extensively though. Anyways I appreciate the new options.

Edited by YIPPEE

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Spoiler

Years ago, the medical community warned television consumers about the dangers of x-radiation from TV sets. While the concern was legitimate, the danger is not an issue today because of the inventions of LCD and plasma televisions. These modern flat panel screens do not emit radiation.

 

However, many people still worry that they may injure their eyes by sitting too close to the TV. While sitting close to the television will not cause injury to your eyes or vision, close viewing may cause temporary eye strain or eye fatigue.

 

So how close is too close? What is the ideal distance for watching television? The answer may be surprising to some, but there really is no magic formula for calculating the precise distance.

 

Ideal TV Viewing Distance and Position

Eye care professionals recommend sitting approximately eight to ten feet away from the TV screen. The general rule of thumb is to be at least 5 times the distance from the screen as the screen is wide. For example, if your television is 32 inches wide, the optimal viewing distance is 160 inches or about 13 feet.

 

However, most optometrists and ophthalmologists agree that the best distance for television viewing is the distance that feels most comfortable for you. As long as you can see the screen clearly without experiencing discomfort, the distance is probably correct.

 

Besides viewing distance, the position of your television in relation to where you are sitting is also important for preventing eye strain. Whether you hang your TV on the wall or set it on a tabletop, try to position it at eye level or lower to prevent straining your vertical eye muscles or your neck. Constantly forcing your eyes to look up will eventually cause the eye muscles to fatigue.

 

Well if you have a 32 Inches screen your doctor  recomend you being able to spot  ( a 6 pixel ) planes at 13 feet away. 👁️

 

image.jpeg.a9c918046ebf98f7b80aaeff5267e027.jpeg

 

 

 

Edited by [LAS]URU-Panzer

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