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On the new visibility system

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Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, Mobile_BBQ said:

 

If sunlight reflects off of a rifle scope at a distance, the glint temporarily appears much larger than the scope lens could possibly be.  If you focus you eyes towards it, it may appear smaller.  

It's part of the way light reflects in many different directions.  You can try it with a small mirror placed far away in a place the sun will eventually hit it directly.  Are you sure it really was a glitch? 

Yes. Definitgely so. Why? Because you could literally have contacts pop in and out of existence based on how far you were zoomed in, my dear.

Have them pop in and out at will. As in visible at default view, you start zooming in for ID and they disappear. If you then did a reset back to default they would be right where they used to be.

Not normal behaviour, that.

Edited by wellenbrecher

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Just now, wellenbrecher said:

Yes. Definitgely so. Why? Because you could literally have contacts pop in and out of existence based on how far you were zoomed in, my dear.

Have them pop in and out at will. As in visible at fully zoomed out, start zoom they disappear. Keep zooming and they re-appear.

Not normal behaviour, that.

Clearly the zoom was messed up, the solution apparently was to completely disable any type of scaling at all. So now we are back to square one. My dear.

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Which, my dear, isn't a solution.

They hacked off the limb instead of pulling the splinter.

 

Wouldn't the sane solution have been to leave it as is while they work on a fix, then deploy the fix? Instead of taking it all out?

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Posted (edited)

Personally it made sense to me to have the greatest scaling at max FOV, and then back it off. In order to be able fly properly, you need max fov. I wont want to fly with my face smushed into the windscreen. Having the scaling drop off when you zoomed in was a nice feature imo because it prevented you from exploiting the effect too much and from seeing any weird gremlins from the scaling effect.

Edited by YIPPEE

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Posted (edited)
2 minutes ago, YIPPEE said:

Personally it made sense to me to have the greatest scaling at max zoom, and then back it off. In order to be able fly properly, you need max fov. I wont want to fly with my face smushed into the windscreen. Having the scaling drop off when you zoomed in was a nice feature imo because it prevented you from exploiting the effect too much and from seeing any weird gremlins from the scaling effect.

 

Out of interest, how the hell did you manage to fly on max zoom out? I can never read any of the instruments if I do it.

Been using the default zoom and head forward position for a while now. Only ever really change the height in almost all planes and move the default up and to the left in German fighters or my neck starts to hurt after a while. 

Edited by wellenbrecher

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2 minutes ago, wellenbrecher said:

Wouldn't the sane solution have been to leave it as is while they work on a fix, then deploy the fix? Instead of taking it all out?

How would they know how much was too much and how little is too little without trying it out and get some feedback?

This change to reduce distance could be the first step in finding that "fix" to get to an acceptable sweetspot between "realism" and "playability"

 

as if that would be the visibility solution to the end of days, you guys freak out waaaay too much and waaaay to fast. Relax. Breathe. it's gonne be alright

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Just now, wellenbrecher said:

 

Out of interest, how the hell did you manage to fly on max zoom out? I can never read any of the instruments if I do it.

Been using the default zoom and head forward position for a while now. Only ever really change the height in almost all planes and move the default up and to the left in German fighters or my neck starts to hurt after a while. 

I can read them just fine, but im at 1440p so i dont know if that makes a difference.  Plus most gauges dont need you to read them that precisely. Otherwise on lower zoom levels i would just zoom in.

 

For dog fighting or flight leading/formation you totally need wider Fov though. Having to zoom constantly in and out, or having to fly at like 60deg FOV is like having to manually work your eyeballs IRL.

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1 minute ago, =FC=SteelFalcon said:

How would they know how much was too much and how little is too little without trying it out and get some feedback?

This change to reduce distance could be the first step in finding that "fix" to get to an acceptable sweetspot between "realism" and "playability"

 

as if that would be the visibility solution to the end of days, you guys freak out waaaay too much and waaaay to fast. Relax. Breathe. it's gonne be alright

Funny one of your clan members was the first one on here whining about how unrealistic it was the second the patch dropped, if I remember correctly and I am of course, the complaints from a select few right after the patch came out was this is total crap I want to stay invisible. The russian forum was filled with the same crap. I am sure that complaining immediately after the patch came out was fully warranted though.

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Posted (edited)
5 minutes ago, YIPPEE said:

I can read them just fine, but im at 1440p so i dont know if that makes a difference.  Plus most gauges dont need you to read them that precisely. Otherwise on lower zoom levels i would just zoom in.

 

For dog fighting or flight leading/formation you totally need wider Fov though. Having to zoom constantly in and out, or having to fly at like 60deg FOV is like having to manually work your eyeballs IRL.

 

I'm on a 37" at 2560x1440. so... 😋

Dunno, maybe I'm too German and want to know the values too precisely for my own good, but even ignoring that I just hate how the game looks when fully zoomed out. The fish-eye effect making me nauseous doesn't help obviously.

 

I mean good for you that it works and yeah, you're probably right about dogfights. I do mostly bombing runs and mud moving so that part ain't a real concern to me.

Edited by wellenbrecher
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Just now, JonRedcorn said:

Funny one of your clan members was the first one on here whining about how unrealistic it was the second the patch dropped, if I remember correctly and I am of course, the complaints from a select few right after the patch came out was this is total crap I want to stay invisible. The russian forum was filled with the same crap. I am sure that complaining immediately after the patch came out was fully warranted though.

Funny how i represent my own opinion and my clan member has his own, we're not a dictatorship where my word counts more than theirs. i represent my own opinion, not his. Still i like flying with him. Weird right? I myself think that 100k is overdone too. It was great from a point to see what the engine COULD handle. not that it was perfect with 100k vis. could have flown with icons on, would've been almost the same. 25k is my personal sweetspot i think.

 

Doesn't show you all the way across the map and still is a reasonable distance for aerial combat, leaving some "sneak" options for bombers and fighters.

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Would very much appreciate an additional assessment and consideration of getting back towards the visibility settings we had with 3.201.  The development team did an absolutely fantastic job on this release, and that was one of the long-awaited highlights.  

 

большое Вам спасибо

 

 

 

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Posted (edited)

So, some of the experinced guys reported that after hotfix the visibility is back to prepatch values and some of you are telling us its better but not the same as prepatch. Who is right and who is wrong? Worst thing for me is that we still dont have an official word from devs on that matter. This is not ok. In fact there isnt anything on the visibility changes in hotfix readme. Its not the first time though......

Edited by =VARP=Tvrdi

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Posted (edited)
5 minutes ago, =VARP=Tvrdi said:

So, some of the experinced guys reported that after hotfix the visibility is back to prepatch values and some of you are telling us its better but not the same as prepatch. Who is right and who is wrong? Worst thing for me is that we still dont have an official word from devs on that matter. This is not ok. In fact there isnt anything on the visibility changes in hotfix readme. Its not the first time though......

 

The patch notes do mention the changes and Jason has also said that the system has been tweaked not reverted.

 

You should try the game and come to your own conclusion.

Edited by [DBS]Browning

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4 minutes ago, =VARP=Tvrdi said:

So, some of the experinced guys reported that after hotfix the visibility is back to prepatch values and some of you are telling us its better but not the same as prepatch. Who is right and who is wrong? Worst thing for me is that we still dont have an official word from devs on that matter. This is not ok. In fact there isnt anything on the visibility changes in hotfix readme. Its not the first time though......

See for yourself..

 

tRdiAPm.png

 

 

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Going to go out on a limb here and remind everybody that we're all using a multitude of setups and configs/devices/screens/etc. etc. etc.

there's a lot of people saying "it should be this" or "it's better now than it was" and so on.

 

try to think about this differently, instead of bitching about how it is, or how it should be in your eyes consider the options, literally the options.

place a suggestion for scale settings in the options tab, zoom functions etc, get backing from the community, thus everyone can dial in their own settings to how they like and how they feel it is realistic?

 

also a reminder that this is an in development patch, this is far from final product, there will be steps forward, and steps back because that is part of the dev process. They have to test these things by distributing to the wider community and all clamouring to tell the devs how much better it is now/was then isn't helping them to fine tune it, neither is throwing your damn doll out of the pram "I'll never play this again/we've all lost interest" that really doesn't help.

 

if you want this game to be something you'll play, invest in the development process, get organised, stop assuming that because you've paid your fee you'll get what you and you alone want, instead consider the options, the abilities and time of the devs and most importantly the clients as a whole.

 

*Post applies to whomever believes it applies to them, seriously.

 

got a bit ranty but seriously, can we not just whine on the forums about these patches? get organised, come up with better ideas than "I liked it better when"

Pete

 

 

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1 hour ago, 56RAF_Talisman said:

 

Air-to-air spotting is worse than pre-patch.  Air-to-air spotting is harder than ever before in the history of the sim for me.  But I am working on it.  Also, I understand that it is all WIP.

 

P.S.  I use VR headset.

 

Happy landings,

 

Talisman

I tried VR, I paused it and there was a contact at 10k which I should have been able to see clearly, but it was on the threshold of noticing it even though I knew where to look. I would never have seen it in a live game. That said, I've never been able to spot well in VR.

 

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Just had a chance to give the new hotfix a try.  The viewing seems to be very much on a par with what we had pre-patch.  I've never been one to make a fuss over viewing distances in this or any other sim in the last 15 years, but I will offer to say that the previous version before the hotfix was the more enjoyable player experience.

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3 hours ago, 77.CountZero said:

Best would be to alow server hosts to select what ranges for contacts they wont, like it was in old il2 1946 or clod where you could go from 1-25km, and all players on server would have same settings server select as what they deamed as realistic. I dont know if that is posible here as system they use is mutch more advanced then just dots. 

+1

No.  A core gameplay feature like this shouldn’t be a server setting. It would divide players up and be really frustrating to adapt to different settings on different servers.  

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3 hours ago, =FC=SteelFalcon said:


its‘s not as limited as before the big update, but does not seem that it‘s a lot further than the pre-bodenplatte version.

however, they now have an indication of what feels like too much and also what feels like too little.

So i guess it‘s gonna be adjusted again rather sooner than later, with a result somewhere between those 2 settings, which would seem to be just about the sweetspot and a value that the majority of players can live with well.

 

That is what I would like to see. I had a feeling it was a little overdone. I was chasing a He-111 on the deck during a QMB test and it was somewhat hard to tell how far away it was because it appeared so bright and large. The zoom issue was noticeable but not as much for me as some others.

What I was honestly expecting from the vis update is what people are describing post hotfix - able to see contrails, occasional glints, but still hard to spot past around 10 km. So I was expecting my personal spotting ability to stay about the same but would have the improvement of not having disappearing contrails. My expectations were pretty low tbh. The new system made spotting easier but for me, not as much of an improvement as some people were getting. There were even some people who couldn't spot at all.

As it was, the new system was better than what we had but as long as they don't ditch work on it entirely because of people flipping out one way or another, I think you're right and we'll arrive at a good compromise.

And this is maybe a weird question, but how do people know how far away the objects they're spotting are? Against the ground, if you know your own position over the ground, and can tell their position, then you can estimate it. A lot of guys were confidently stating distances against the sky or at oblique angle, I just wonder how they were doing that. 

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Posted (edited)
20 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

No.  A core gameplay feature like this shouldn’t be a server setting. It would divide players up and be really frustrating to adapt to different settings on different servers.  

It worked with no problem in previous games, and in last few days you had 3 full servers, and 3 more with 50+ and planty more with around 20, (most without icons).

So server like wol would probably stick to 10km, others would go for 25km and so on, with amount of ppl on MP last few days no problem in spliting them to play on server settings they like, and this is work day not weekend with more ppl online then you got on peak times on weekends before on 1-2 server.

More options alove more ppl to play the way they wont to play, not oposite. You cant have 400-500ppl playing on one server at same time :) 

 

On top of that its eseyer for server host to react to complain about him having to short or to long vis range, then for devs to constantly making changes and making hotfixes to please all, and never it will be ok for all, some like it how it was before at 10km, some like it how it was after 3.2 at 50+km.

 

I would also go as far to say alowing servers modifications for icons in distance at what they show, info they show and if they show for frend or enemy only would also help to get more players.

Edited by 77.CountZero

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1 minute ago, RedKestrel said:

Against the ground, if you know your own position over the ground, and can tell their position, then you can estimate it.

That is it. You can refer to the map squares then and get a pretty accurate distance, especially if you‘re on the same altitude. 
take kuban as example. The distance from

kerch to taman. Basically you took off in bagerovo and could already see the clusterfuck over taman and even further east, pretty detailed too. No matter how they maneuvered, you could count them easily and keep track of a single plane. And not with searching for them, but it basically jumped into your eyes, almost like an icon. To me, that‘s unrealistic.

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Its different on different systems I guess, I get bounced constantly because I see nothing until they are directly behind me. Its insane, I fly on multiplayer servers where I fly for an hour and see nothing until I get back to my airfield. The new patch made it better and I could actually see other aircraft. After the last patch, its back to the same thing. I dont see  anything and am just plain frustrated.

 

Now I track a target down low and follow..  do a couple of maneuvers to get in to position and it disappears... I'll just stick to solo missions I guess.

 

 

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13 minutes ago, =FC=SteelFalcon said:

That is it. You can refer to the map squares then and get a pretty accurate distance, especially if you‘re on the same altitude. 
take kuban as example. The distance from

kerch to taman. Basically you took off in bagerovo and could already see the clusterfuck over taman and even further east, pretty detailed too. No matter how they maneuvered, you could count them easily and keep track of a single plane. And not with searching for them, but it basically jumped into your eyes, almost like an icon. To me, that‘s unrealistic.

Ah, that does sound quite a bit overdone. I only had limited playtime before patch and none online, I was getting familiar with the planes and new mechanics before I went back online.
 

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I‘m sure they‘ll find a sweetspot where the majority of pilots is happy with or at least can live with. As with all new things, it will require some fine-tuning, based off of constructive criticism and feedback. We‘ll get there eventually.

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Just now, HarleyDavidson said:

Its different on different systems I guess, I get bounced constantly because I see nothing until they are directly behind me. Its insane, I fly on multiplayer servers where I fly for an hour and see nothing until I get back to my airfield. The new patch made it better and I could actually see other aircraft. After the last patch, its back to the same thing. I dont see  anything and am just plain frustrated.

 

Now I track a target down low and follow..  do a couple of maneuvers to get in to position and it disappears... I'll just stick to solo missions I guess.

 

 

Sometimes its just coincidence when you see nobody. Other times not. You should try recording your screen and then rewatch some segments. I did this, and I found that when you are just spectating you can often spot aircraft that you never knew were there. Once I counted three aircraft, perfectly visible, that I just didn't see at the time. 

There is a big difference in settings and spotting. Making sure your monitor is properly calibrated, lowering gamma a bit, and fiddling with the various settings can make contacts a little easier to see. 

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I was thinking about this fix..... this is the problems I'm having.   Does this go against the game user agreement?

 

 

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6 hours ago, Mobile_BBQ said:

I think the current post-hotfix is very good.  I think that once you experience a variety of lighting conditions (weather, time of day, relative position of the sun) it should be apparent that while it is possible for planes to show beyond 20km, they don't always.  You might even find (again, depending on conditions) they might not be seen more than 10km away.  Discounting the flexibility of the lighting system as it is in this current state is, IMO, very short sighted.  Give it some time before you go poo-pooing the whole thing and screaming for immediate changes. 

 

If sunlight reflects off of a rifle scope at a distance, the glint temporarily appears much larger than the scope lens could possibly be.  If you focus you eyes towards it, it may appear smaller.  

It's part of the way light reflects in many different directions.  You can try it with a small mirror placed far away in a place the sun will eventually hit it directly.  Are you sure it really was a glitch? 

 

This, absolutely this! I think it's as perfect as it can get post hotfix. 

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Posted (edited)
55 minutes ago, HarleyDavidson said:

I was thinking about this fix..... this is the problems I'm having.   Does this go against the game user agreement?

 

 

 

No, reshade is fine. It doesn't change any game files.

Also for the gamma thing he posted in the video, set the file to write-protected afterwards.

Edited by wellenbrecher

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Posted (edited)

Ya this example that JonRedcorn posted actually illustrates that you can see contacts at 10km. (though I know he thinks it shows the opposite) You can actually see them pretty well and larger than 1 pixel for most resolutions too. And as others have stated, this changes based on lighting with glints off the wings making them more apparent etc.... also the motion across the sky makes them stand out more than a still image. 

 

image.png.0793a97912727dedb8e1dffd59ec8968.png

 

 

Edited by SCG_Wulfe

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Inspired by the video above I decided to fiddle with my old reshade settings a bit and I came across a funny little twist:

The LOD/zoom issue is still there. Contacts popping out and in at somewhere between 6,5km and 7km distance* depending on zoom level.

 

Tested it with A20s, I-16s and 109K4s. So... fun. :)

 

 

 

*Yes, yes, I know. It's great that we can actually see things at that distance, it's better than before the big patch. It's still not good enough than what we now have seen could be. And no, before you start putting words in my mouth, not talking about a distance of 100+.

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thank you Wellenbrecher.... I'm going to give the re shade a try.. thanks for testing

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On 10/1/2019 at 11:50 AM, Gambit21 said:

Get a better monitor 

At 4K I have no issues - contacts start as a tiny 4K pixel and slowly grow.

 

Stop sniveling 

 

Hey, some people can't afford the upgrade... (of course, in which case anything that recreates actual likelihoods of seeing an enemy ought to be a good solution)

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15 hours ago, 4brkfast said:

The reason why these spotting issues need to be addressed is most people are not on VR or 2k or 4k. It's not a compromise either, this is the majority of the potential customer base. So the players that poo poo spotting issues and whom selfishly view what they have as 'standard' need to evaluate their stance.

 

Well for my part I had no idea there had been a hotfix until I saw Strat's protest thread link. Post-patch visibility had definitely improved massively in VR thanks to the changes. If they really have nerfed it back to near pre-patch levels with the hotfix, then it sounds like it will be near useless for VR... just like it was before. I really hope not because I don't want to have to turn that horrible HUD with it's horrible arrows back on. :mellow:

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, HarleyDavidson said:

I was thinking about this fix..... this is the problems I'm having.   Does this go against the game user agreement?

 

 

Ah, this is where the views were coming from 😄

Well, to be honest, the bad spotting was the reason why I almost completely stopped playing the game. I would consider myself a sim veteran, I piled up thousands of hours in all kinds of sims since my childhood, but this game engine behavior is just crap as said in the video and Ive never encountered it THAT BAD in ANY other sim. Next in the difficulty-list regarding spotting would be DCS, but at least there server owners can get around that by allowing custom labels (littel grey dots at certain distances). 

Then, after the big patch I couldnt believe my eyes. Finally I could see anything! I was excited and happy because devs finally figured out a way to adress this problem. Finally the air was full of planes, my SA could develop and I could plan my actions accordingly. 
Now I learned they put it basically back to where it was pre-patch. So Ive had just one ride in my Mustang with a good spotting system. It lasted for an hour or so. 
*insert "aaand its gone" meme*



Devs be like:
Boss "Hey lets increase spotting to 100km!"
Employee: "But isnt that a bit .. extreme Sir?"
Boss: "I dont care!"
2 days later
Boss: "Hey the 100km spotting is too extreme!"
Employee:" Yea ... riiight. So what should we do?"
Boss: Put it effectively back to where it was before!"
Employee: "....."
Players: "............................" 

I will see you all again in a few years or so when devs decide to overhaul the complete engine. 

Edited by Spicysauced
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Posted (edited)

I always had icons on in VR because I couldn’t make out targets. After the latest update, pre patch, I actually turned them off because I could id targets without icons, revelation! This is all offline, never got into the online game because I could barely spot other aircraft, let alone id friend or foe. Last night I figured lets give online another go, with the better visibility online might work. And then there was the patch, bummer. Staying offline with icons on until a middle ground is found. This is an air combat simulation, not bogies or bandits until you’re at knife fight range. I know it’s still a work in progress. Keeping my fingers crossed this gets resolved by the time the game is released. This game with icons on reminds me of a slightly better looking and flying War Thunder (the Horror!). With pre hotfix and icons off it actually came very close to actual air combat and flying out there for real.  It was acceptable not knowing what the game engine could do but now the cat is out of the bag. Don’t put it back and drown the poor thing.

Edited by BigC208
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I use a Rift CV1 and in the 30 minute flight I had mentioned that I did yesterday was on Combat Box - I was in P51 and had a FW190 D9 (id'ed quite a bit later) coming toward me from my very long 1 o'clock low. Due to the time it took for us to close and the amount lower the FW190 was (many thounds of feet), it was well beyond 10k line of sight from me when I first spotted it. Pre-update it would have been beyond the 10k bubble and wouldn't have had a chance to see it until later. Based on closure time comapared to closure in a quick mission starting at 10k separation, I think it was much closer to 20k than 15k - and no I don't know for certain but we were both clipping along fairly fast and took noticeably longer to close than if we were starting 10k apart. I glancing back to it and keep thinking how long before this plane merges/passes below so I can ID and drop in behind him. It took me too many passes than it should have but I got him. I saw several other aircraft that were distant but didn't engage/merge with so I'm not willing to try to say just how far those others were (nothing to compare to) - can only say they weren't real close.

 

I agree with some above posts that lighting and such are making a difference as it should.

 

Just because we can see stuff farther now doesn't mean we should see every single distant contact visually every time - as well as if it was on an AWACS radar sceen, which is how it felt to me pre-patch.

 

 

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Posted (edited)

2. This forum is provided by 1C-777 Ltd. as a courtesy and its usage is a privilege and 1C-777 Ltd. reserves the right to ban any member temporarily or permanently for any reason at any time. Any penalties listed below for violations of the rules are guidelines only and forum administration may take additional action if they feel it is warranted. Use of the forum is not connected to usage of the game and access to this forum is not guaranteed to users as a consequence of purchasing the game.

Edited by SYN_Haashashin
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Just now, HansBlitz said:

Its rumored that Donkey Kong doesn't have visibility issues.

He just drinks a lot. :( 

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