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[DBS]Browning

On the new visibility system

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4 minutes ago, SCG_Wulfe said:

Is combat box running with it off again? If so I’ll be there.

Not according to their change log.

 

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I recently (3 weeks) changed from 23in 1080p to 32in 4k.  Even before the patch I noticed a huge advantage in spotting and tracking using 4k.  HUGE ADVANTAGE.  Anyone that says there is not an advantage clearly hasn't been able to compare using the two side by side.  

Someone will always have a advantage over others when we have different hardware.  That's life.  I flew for years looking through a bottle glass.  😁

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6 hours ago, LLv34_Flanker said:

S!

 

 Right. Will take a look. Are they more than 60Hz?

 

There are no cables I believe that can carry 2160p at more than 60hz. Not seen any display higher than 60hz for UHD. Or graphics cards which could do that. But I’m sure it’s coming 

6 hours ago, hrafnkolbrandr said:

 

So the new setting isn't a problem then, right?

For close combat I don’t see a reason it would make a difference. This type of visibility enhancement in DCS was a big problem because 10km is point blank range for missile combat. But in WWII it’s not really an issue. 

3 hours ago, =[TIA]=Stoopy said:

 If "Alternate Visibility" grows the MP numbers, that's a good thing. 

Bringing more War Thunder players most likely... 😶

5 hours ago, SeaSerpent said:

I can't help thinking that this represents a missed opportunity to make the most realistic depiction possible,

If a sim made “the most realistic depiction possible” lots of people would complain that they can’t see anything

I think the Expert setting in this game nails it really. And according to their engineer pilot it does. People don’t want “real” though they want “easy”

DCS tried this same direction and had to backpedal. Too bad 1CGS didn’t learn from that. A missed opportunity for sure. It’s not the first time they did something unfortunate in the attempt to quell an issue. Now with two settings this debate will go on forever...

Edited by SharpeXB
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I don't understand the big deal of this discussion, if many people asked the previous Hotfix spoting back and now you have an alternative to activate it in servers, why are you crying soo much? If servers don't want to use the expert spoting don't play on that server, and if too many servers use the easy spoting, then just quit! Majority of people were tired of 10km bubble and impossible spoting planes. I know have the motivation to join again and fight instead spending hours seeking contacts. Majority of people will dictate the destiny of this spoting system, not a bunch of players.

Edited by SJ_Butcher
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45 minutes ago, SJ_Butcher said:

I don't understand the big deal of this discussion, if many people asked the previous Hotfix spoting back and now you have an alternative to activate it in servers, why are you crying soo much? If servers don't want to use the expert spoting don't play on that server, and if too many servers use the easy spoting, then just quit! Majority of people were tired of 10km bubble and impossible spoting planes. I know have the motivation to join again and fight instead spending hours seeking contacts. Majority of people will dictate the destiny of this spoting system, not a bunch of players.

 

Right now all the main servers are using the inflated super view setting. If I had an alternative I would use it. I don’t want to quit. The reason we are so vocal about this is we love this sim and don’t want to lose it.

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4 minutes ago, SCG_Wulfe said:

 

Right now all the main servers are using the inflated super view setting. If I had an alternative I would use it. I don’t want to quit. The reason we are so vocal about this is we love this sim and don’t want to lose it.

 

Talk to the server admins then.

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37 minutes ago, SCG_Wulfe said:

Right now all the main servers are using the inflated super view setting. If I had an alternative I would use it. I don’t want to quit. The reason we are so vocal about this is we love this sim and don’t want to lose it.

Which is exactly how all the (majority) feels about going back to the extremely unrealistic "expert" spotting. You should be happy the game is fixed now.

 

Imagine this about twice as easy as you see it here with youtube compression.

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5 minutes ago, YIPPEE said:

Which is exactly how all the (majority) feels about going back to the extremely unrealistic "expert" spotting. You should be happy the game is fixed now.

 

 

Not happy about it at all.  Clearly it's the uberviz option that is the less realistic and more arcade-gamey of the two.  The developers have even said as much.  As others have stated, I don't want to quit, but i simply have no interest in playing on Icon-like servers.  I guess it's off to something else until there is at least one mainstream server that caters to those who want the more realistic option. 

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Just now, SeaSerpent said:

Clearly it's the uberviz option that is the less realistic and more arcade-gamey of the two

This is objectively false.

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1 hour ago, SeaSerpent said:

 

LoL, you wish.

Nope. Everyone who is claiming the expert option is more realistic on the whole is wrong in point of fact. What is truly incredible is that there is disagreement about this at all, considering we all have eyeballs. From the perspective of realism it matters alot less if you sometimes see a contact too far away than the reverse. The alternate option scaling feature helps with at medium ranges, and that is more important for realism than no being able to see someone 40km away. This is a case where too good is better than too little. Simple as that.

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5 minutes ago, YIPPEE said:

Nope. Everyone who is claiming the expert option is more realistic on the whole is wrong in point of fact. What is truly incredible is that there is disagreement about this at all, considering we all have eyeballs. From the perspective of realism it matters alot less if you sometimes see a contact too far away than the reverse. The alternate option scaling feature helps with at medium ranges, and that is more important for realism than no being able to see someone 40km away. This is a case where too good is better than too little. Simple as that.

 

Is not the big issue people are having with alternate is that you CAN see everyone at 40km and that is why people say it is unrealistic 

 

Too good is too good, not better? 

 

Cheers, Dakpilot 

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33 minutes ago, YIPPEE said:

Nope. Everyone who is claiming the expert option is more realistic on the whole is wrong in point of fact. What is truly incredible is that there is disagreement about this at all, considering we all have eyeballs. From the perspective of realism it matters alot less if you sometimes see a contact too far away than the reverse. The alternate option scaling feature helps with at medium ranges, and that is more important for realism than no being able to see someone 40km away. This is a case where too good is better than too little. Simple as that.

 

Tell yourself whatever you want.  I had argued for a compromise solution that called upon the merits of both sides without being over-the-top, or in some cases, even offensive to the eye, but the answer came back definitively that such is not to be.  In lieu of that I'd be ok with the 'Expert' setting offered, if the server operators would use it.  Have fun playing your game with the radar-like vision offered by the Enhanced setting. 

 

25 minutes ago, Dakpilot said:

 

Is not the big issue people are having with alternate is that you CAN see everyone at 40km and that is why people say it is unrealistic 

 

 

 

Yes, pretty much.  And some really annoying effects like seeing the contact clearly, but having it shrink when zooming in or closing. 

Edited by SeaSerpent

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8 minutes ago, Dakpilot said:

 

Too good is too good, not better? 

It is only too good at those ranges. Without the alternate option spotting at more tactically relevant ranges becomes much worse, which is a bigger issues than not seeing people 40km away routinely. Also, I almost never see anyone 40km away with the alternate spotting. 25 is more routine.

4 minutes ago, SeaSerpent said:

Have fun playing your game with the radar-like vision offered by the Enhanced setting. 

Thanks, I will.

Edited by YIPPEE
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32 minutes ago, wumas0201 said:

Which online server is using Expert mode?? I think WOL is.

Combat Box and KOTA are last time I was on.

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3 minutes ago, Legioneod said:

Combat Box and KOTA are last time I was on.

As of 8 h ago, both Kota and CB were running alternative visibility.

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13 minutes ago, =FC=SteelFalcon said:

As of 8 h ago, both Kota and CB were running alternative visibility.

Ah ok. Wa on over 8h ago. That kinda sucks, I was getting used to the more realistic visibility.

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And yet not one word about a bigger elephant in the room, chat and radios with unlimited range and information transmission abilities.  Yup, realism at its finest.  Is that fair setting up exclusive comms and gaming an even bigger advantage by passing actual useful info.  Psst, everybody already knew where the gaggle is.

 

Personally I don't care, go for it and team game it to your hearts content, but don't be preaching realism with a laser beam pointed at the sun, hard to see any real point.

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4 minutes ago, Legioneod said:

I was getting used to the more realistic visibility.

I'm also hoping for it to be changed, i flew a good amount using the new visibility and while at closer ranges it is mostly like it has been all the time (within 10km), further ranges seem really "dumbed down". add to that, if you zoom in to ID a target at further range, it actually shrinks and you see less than without zoom... ID below 10km range is still good, although the sun reflections at times seems a bit over the top.

Edited by =FC=SteelFalcon

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6 minutes ago, [CPT]Crunch said:

And yet not one word about a bigger elephant in the room, chat and radios with unlimited range and information transmission abilities. 

 

Possibly because the thread is titled "On the new visibility system" and not "On the usage of Discord, Teamspeak, and Chat to simulate radios with unlimited range and information transmission abilities".

Edited by SeaSerpent

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9 minutes ago, Legioneod said:

Ah ok. Wa on over 8h ago. That kinda sucks, I was getting used to the more realistic visibility.

 

We've been running AV on Combat Box since it was an option. KOTA ran 1-2 missions with Expert Spotting then went back to AV.

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5 minutes ago, Talon_ said:

 

We've been running AV on Combat Box since it was an option. KOTA ran 1-2 missions with Expert Spotting then went back to AV.

Ah ok, must have been Kota then. It certainly wasnt the "easy" spotting.

Edited by Legioneod

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1 minute ago, Legioneod said:

Ah ok, must have been Kota then. It certainly want the "easy" spotting.

 

They last used expert spotting on October 5th

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The question I have about visibility is shouldn't we be able to see AAA tracers a lot farther out than we currently can?  I know the burn out quickly but, you have to be right at the combat area to see them at all.

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14 hours ago, II./JG77_motoadve said:

Its like flying with icons ON now.

No navigation needed anymore.

Take off and soon enough you see a bunch of planes, and just head into that direction.

No element of surprise.

 

I have not found any servers with expert mode yet, but might get bored quick with the big plane visibility, does not feel right at all.

Makes the MP combat a whole different simple unrealistic game, take off , spot the planes and fly there to fight. :(

 

Hope to see some expert servers implemented.

 

 

Agree, now the simulation is totally killed, as for the immersion. At this point, icons would be a better choice.

 

 

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S!

 

 Time for the experts to create an Expert only server then? Finnish Virtualpilots server uses AV and no-one is complaining who I have met there, even some of the posters from here ;) Fights are still over the combat zones as before, people attacking and some defending etc. I did some interdiction strikes to the rear and easily managed to sneak past prowling planes with my wingman despite the allmighty AWACS mode enabled. Was so unrealistic that it hurts :P 

 

I bet no-one would complain if the LOD / zoom issue in VA would be fixed. Spotting would be harder despite the range due contacts being smaller with corrected LOD. Adjust the dot color from white or grey to a bit darker and voilá, it works. Could even drop spotting range a bit, too. IMO would be a good balance between realism and playability. Or maybe devs should make only one FOV available(a bit wider than the default), no zoom at all..just for realism´s sake? But then would complaints of "we are on a monitor blah blah" arise. Strange how best realism is the one that suits own perception of it :P

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3 minutes ago, LLv34_Flanker said:

Adjust the dot color from white or grey to a bit darker and voilá, it works.

i second this.

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This way to spot the enemy must be removed from the sim. Another sim did the same time ago, and it was absolutely unrealistic, and not only. In this way, this IL2 is no more a simulation. I've tested it online (zoom iusse included) and i can only say that's is terrible. Personally i will give it up with IL2 if this way to play will become the standard.

 

Really i don't get the point of this spotting "update". You are confused, you don't have anymore the distance perception, you spot something that seem to be a 747 from very long distance.....ecc. ecc... really horrible, sorry to be rude.

 

 

Edited by 150GCT_Veltro

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10 minutes ago, 150GCT_Veltro said:

This way to spot the enemy must be removed from the sim. Another sim did the same time ago, and it was absolutely unrealistic, and not only. In this way, this IL2 is no more a simulation. I've tested it online (zoom iusse included) and i can only say that's is terrible. Personally i will give it up with IL2 if this way to play will become the standard.

 

Really i don't get the point of this spotting "update". You are confused, you don't have anymore the distance perception, you spot something that seem to be a 747 from very long distance.....ecc. ecc... really horrible, sorry to be rude.

 

 

We have two options now. I didn’t see you complaining when we released 3.201 update. 
 

Jason

15 minutes ago, =FC=SteelFalcon said:

i second this.

The color of the LOD depends on the lighting.

 

Jason

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27 minutes ago, LLv34_Flanker said:

 

I bet no-one would complain if the LOD / zoom issue in VA would be fixed. Spotting would be harder despite the range due contacts being smaller with corrected LOD. Adjust the dot color from white or grey to a bit darker and voilá, it works. Could even drop spotting range a bit, too. IMO would be a good balance between realism and playability. Or maybe devs should make only one FOV available(a bit wider than the default), no zoom at all..just for realism´s sake? But then would complaints of "we are on a monitor blah blah" arise. Strange how best realism is the one that suits own perception of it :P

My issue with arcade spotting (yes, I call it arcade because on my system it means that I routinely see ennemies 20+ km away as big dots, it looks kinda stupid) has nothing to do with zoom, because it appears out of zoom. The sky when zoomed out is filled with dots indicating where to go. Searching for objectives using navigation? Hahaha, far too complicated,  why would I bother? Boring! Take off, fly 30sec in approximate direction of frontline, go for the group of dots that look the most promising... that's a whole part of this game simply removed on my PC.

 

So I'll "enjoy" this "fun" of the game being one big glorified furball in MP, and keep immersion for SP and coop with friends.

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S!

 

Kalbuth, you cited the reason why AV is a bit wonky: targets/dots appear too big without zoom and with zoom they get smaller. Fixing that would help a lot, agree? And have to wonder how the testers did not see this feature?

Edited by LLv34_Flanker

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22 minutes ago, Jason_Williams said:

We have two options now.

It would be good if the server-browser was able to display the difficulty settings in a small box when highlighting the server. This way you would not have to connect to see what you are up to.

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19 minutes ago, LLv34_Flanker said:

S!

 

Kalbuth, you cited the reason why AV is a bit wonky: targets/dots appear too big without zoom and with zoom they get smaller. Fixing that would help a lot, agree? And have to wonder how the testers did not see this feature?

Who have told you the testers did not see it? I wouldn't wonder things you know nothing about 😉

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15 minutes ago, LLv34_Flanker said:

S!

 

Kalbuth, you cited the reason why AV is a bit wonky: targets/dots appear too big without zoom and with zoom they get smaller. Fixing that would help a lot, agree? And have to wonder how the testers did not see this feature?

Perhaps. But they stated they won't go back to the drawing board on this, there's probably more complex things under the hood.

So we're left with these 2 options for the foreseeable future. I fear a good proportion of people have not given "expert " setting a fair, long enough test, and immediately associated it with old spotting mechanism, which it is not. Reactions have been pretty clear about that : "why did they remove new spotting?"

 

In the long run, the so vaulted "fun" experience is gonna bite back, I'm afraid.

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I don't want people to have have less choice. However, I would just like to have frustration and confusion removed from online servers. I cannot stand the alternative visibility (for me, on a personal level its awful)  but I don't want to stop others enjoying it.

 

It is unclear when entering a server what settings are being used (unless admin indicate it ) and it seems as though server admin are switching between the two settings regularly which isn't great and causes yet more frustration .

 

With regards to "realism" we are never going to get 100% realism, its a game after all.

 

What I have experienced while flying about on servers with the Alt Vis on is 1000 times away from even a semblance of realism. Aircraft look huge from a distance but get small as you close with them, if you dare to use zoom (because it isn't real) it is inverted and aircraft can disappear at times and there are anomalies with LOD. 

 

With normal visibility, aircraft are harder to spot at distance but the 10 km bubble is gone, aircraft don't get smaller as you approach, zoom works as intended (to compensate for the human eye attributes that a 2D monitor lacks)  and I haven't noticed the strange LOD anomalies that I have seen with the Alt setting. Is it 100% real? Of course not. However, It is more "real" for me than the alternative. I'm sure the experience is different for others.

 

It would be nice to choose to fly online in a server where I know Alt Vis is off before I enter.  I wouldn't care what the setting is called, "expert" real visibility, normal visibility, or Uncle Tom Cobley's visibility setting. 

 

Would it not be better if we had a server side setting or Icon that indicated that when set to "expert" turns off/disables alternative visibility. Other than messaging every server admin saying "hey what are your settings?" wouldn't that make more sense? 

 

Edit:

18 minutes ago, kalbuth said:

fear a good proportion of people have not given "expert " setting a fair, long enough test, and immediately associated it with old spotting mechanism, which it is not. Reactions have been pretty clear about that : "why did they remove new spotting?"

 

In the long run, the so vaulted "fun" experience is gonna bite back, I'm afraid

Indeed.

Edited by 6./ZG26_Custard
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3 hours ago, Jason_Williams said:

We have two options now. I didn’t see you complaining when we released 3.201 update. 
 

Jason

The color of the LOD depends on the lighting.

 

Jason

 

Sorry, no time to play it.

 

I'm not trolling if you mean this. Question is not 3.201 update or not, but why you did choice for this solution even if (now) optional. Is a totally nonsense considering the new hardcore features we have in the last update, pilot fatigue first of all. The giant static dots, frozen in the sky and visible from long distance, are really not an improvement at all but just only an immersion killer.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by 150GCT_Veltro

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1 hour ago, LLv34_Flanker said:

S!

 

Kalbuth, you cited the reason why AV is a bit wonky: targets/dots appear too big without zoom and with zoom they get smaller. Fixing that would help a lot, agree? And have to wonder how the testers did not see this feature?

 

Regarding the contacts getting smaller with zoom: it happens only when using the default zoom mode.

With the zoom provided by Lefuneste mod, which can be used in VR or 2D regardless, and is MP compatible, there are no inconsistencies whatsoever.

In other words LOD doesn't change while using Lefuneste zoom.

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For me alternative visibility is something like icons on. I can finally spot something in the distant sometimes, even its not realistic. I dont want to use icons and zoom cheat. A.I use unrealistic spotting so now i have slight chance to see them too.

 

 

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