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On the new visibility system

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35 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

This is the problem with having two settings. It will effective kill MP by dividing up or just eliminating the choice. There aren’t enough active servers in this game to permit so many options. 

 

The “Expert” visibility on a 4K screen is really superb. Not overdone but possible to see in a realistic way. No oddities with LODs or zoom effects. 

Combined with the new Physiology effect its a whole new game. Very cool! And very difficult. 

 

Didn't you know? MP is barely played, everyone is involved in offline play these days!

Edited by Leifr

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12 minutes ago, Leifr said:

 

Didn't you know? MP is barely played, everyone is involved in offline play these days!

I think many people want to play both modes with the same settings. 

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2 hours ago, II./JG77_motoadve said:

 

No element of surprise.

 

I'm going to have to disagree with this one whole heartedly.

I have bounced unsuspecting enemies, and the same has happened to me.

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24 minutes ago, =362nd_FS=RoflSeal said:

I'm going to have to disagree with this one whole heartedly.

I have bounced unsuspecting enemies, and the same has happened to me.

 

Agreed.  You shouldn't need to be effectively invisible in order to ambush people.

 

Some people were using the poor visibility of the old system as a crutch.

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I currently have this issue with visibilitiy, I don't remember now if it was with alternate mode or not, it was in one of the MP servers. Targets at close ranges can fade against the background, specially through armored glass windshields. For example this P-51 at just 1.2km distance, I should be able to see it pretty easily, but you can see it is rather small and if you take your view away to check your six during an attack run you can lose it once you look back at the front, plenty of times when I was closing in on a bandit I had to call off the attack and climb away to reset, just because I lost sight of him at close ranges in front of my nose at the last moment.

unknown.png
 

Edited by -=PHX=-SuperEtendard

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14 minutes ago, -=PHX=-SuperEtendard said:

I currently have this issue with visibilitiy, I don't remember now if it was with alternate mode or not, it was in one of the MP servers. Targets at close ranges can fade against the background, specially through armored glass windshields. For example this P-51 at just 1.2km distance, I should be able to see it pretty easily, but you can see it is rather small and if you take your view away to check your six during an attack run you can lose it once you look back at the front, plenty of times when I'm closing in on a bandit I had to call off the attack and climbing away to reset, just because I lost sight of him at close ranges in front of my nose at the last moment.

unknown.png
 

 

This has been happening to me, specifically with the armor glass, for years.

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I prefer "expert" and that's going to be my settings of choice in SP, but if people REALLY think they need "normal" settings in MP, go for it, in VR it makes everything stand out so much you can't miss anything.... Win for me, I guess ...

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38 minutes ago, hrafnkolbrandr said:

 

Agreed.  You shouldn't need to be effectively invisible in order to ambush people.

 

Some people were using the poor visibility of the old system as a crutch.

Get real. None of the weapons in this sim have a range of 10km. Your opponents are shooting at you from a few hundred yards. In the old system they were plenty visible before they were any threat to you. 

 

In DCS is where this long range blob stuff was a real problem. Because it replaced radar and those weapons can shoot that far. 

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9 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

In the old system they were plenty visible before they were any threat to you. 

 

To *you*.

 

All the more reason it was nice for people not to be able to see you until the last moment.

 

Plenty of other people in this thread don't seem to have had the same clarity you seem to have enjoyed under the old system.

 

Don't take it from me.  Take it from the dozens who have commented here, and the many more who had decided not to play this game as a result.

Edited by hrafnkolbrandr

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S!

 

 So according to SharpeXB everyone must get a 4K display so they would see the light and be able to play with the only setting accepted, Expert? Sorry, but 4K users are still a minority. 1080p is the most used while some are gravitating to 1440p. 4K requires too much money invested in hardware to run well, especially in a flight sim. A FPS usually is less taxing on the system than a flight sim with far more going on. You do not buy a fancy pants 4K display to run it with a potato CPU and a steam GPU. IL-2 would require an Intel 9900K or 3K-series AMD and a 2080 Super/Ti to get the most out of 4K. I would not settle for 60fps in 4K with medicore settings, has to be 100fps or more with at least high settings. Now a potential average customer must have abundance of moolah to invest in a computer just to use 4K and the one and only EXPERT setting in a game? 

 

There are a whopping 2 options now to choose from, should not blow anyone´s brains to comprehend. If server has "Alternate visibility" on, just leave and make no fuss about it and move to the Expert one. No-one forces to play there if it causes the ego to explode in a "n00b setting environment". Put up your own servers and advertise them accordingly: "4K Expert users only. No n00by 1080p peasants allowed!" or ask server admins to add the used setting in server name. Problem solved. To me it seems that those who demand use of Expert as the only way to play are dividing the "MP community", not those who just play no matter what the setting is. 

 

 

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1 hour ago, hrafnkolbrandr said:

 

To *you*.

 

All the more reason it was nice for people not to be able to see you until the last moment.

 

Plenty of other people in this thread don't seem to have had the same clarity you seem to have enjoyed under the old system.

 

Don't take it from me.  Take it from the dozens who have commented here, and the many more who had decided not to play this game as a result.

The new visibility setting affect targets more than 10k away from you. How is that changing the game at the range of a few hundred yards?

I get zapped pretty good under the Alternate Visibility as well. In either mode I never saw the attack coming. That has nothing to do with graphic settings and more to do with my lack of awareness or a really good bounce by my opponent. 

17 minutes ago, LLv34_Flanker said:

So according to SharpeXB everyone must get a 4K display so they would see the light and be able to play with the only setting accepted,

In this discussion I think it’s important to point out your display hardware. Otherwise it’s hard to compare. 

4K isn’t very fancy anymore, you can get a 4K TV for less than the price of an Xbox 

PC gamers are the only ones stuck on 1080p. Every console kiddie has got a big UHDTV hooked up. 

 

Play whichever setting you prefer, again just posting my observations on it. I’m curious in those running 2160p see less oddities. I’m still experimenting. 

I’ve tried some of the servers but I’m not sure what setting, I understand they are all running Alternate. So far I haven’t actually noticed much of a difference. 

Edited by SharpeXB

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S!

 

 Well, I use an AOC Agon 200Hz 2560x1080 wide screen monitor connected to the DisplayPort. A TV would be a no-go for me, too big and heavy. I rather take a good monitor than a TV. I have a good Sony Bravia 4K HDR TV in the living room, but plugging my computer to it? Maybe not :P

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1 minute ago, LLv34_Flanker said:

S!

 

 Well, I use an AOC Agon 200Hz 2560x1080 wide screen monitor connected to the DisplayPort. A TV would be a no-go for me, too big and heavy. I rather take a good monitor than a TV. I have a good Sony Bravia 4K HDR TV in the living room, but plugging my computer to it? Maybe not :P

Samsung makes low lag Free Sync compatible gaming TVs. Looks very nice. 

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17 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

The new visibility setting affect targets more than 10k away from you. How is that changing the game at the range of a few hundred yards?

 

So the new setting isn't a problem then, right?

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23 hours ago, Spicysauced said:

The natural beauty of a nearly 10 year old graphics engine designed initially for RoF, a game with closing speeds of 300 km/h, yes. 
I'd rather prefer some makeup on this old lady then. 

 

THIS

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2 hours ago, hrafnkolbrandr said:

Some people were using the poor visibility of the old system as a crutch.

A lot more people are now using the unrealistic alternate visibility system as a crutch.

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2 minutes ago, hrafnkolbrandr said:

 

So the new setting isn't a problem then, right?

Well, for me the sky is now full of long distance dots. I take off, look around, go toward the fight.... Ez... If that's how IL2 MP is supposed to be, so be it...

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28 minutes ago, LLv34_Flanker said:

S!

 

 So according to SharpeXB everyone must get a 4K display so they would see the light and be able to play with the only setting accepted, Expert? Sorry, but 4K users are still a minority. 1080p is the most used while some are gravitating to 1440p. 4K requires too much money invested in hardware to run well, especially in a flight sim. A FPS usually is less taxing on the system than a flight sim with far more going on. You do not buy a fancy pants 4K display to run it with a potato CPU and a steam GPU. IL-2 would require an Intel 9900K or 3K-series AMD and a 2080 Super/Ti to get the most out of 4K. I would not settle for 60fps in 4K with medicore settings, has to be 100fps or more with at least high settings. Now a potential average customer must have abundance of moolah to invest in a computer just to use 4K and the one and only EXPERT setting in a game? 

 

There are a whopping 2 options now to choose from, should not blow anyone´s brains to comprehend. If server has "Alternate visibility" on, just leave and make no fuss about it and move to the Expert one. No-one forces to play there if it causes the ego to explode in a "n00b setting environment". Put up your own servers and advertise them accordingly: "4K Expert users only. No n00by 1080p peasants allowed!" or ask server admins to add the used setting in server name. Problem solved. To me it seems that those who demand use of Expert as the only way to play are dividing the "MP community", not those who just play no matter what the setting is. 

 

 

 

This is a perfect example of how confused most people are on the issue... having 4k makes things less visible for spotting not more.... 

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S!

 

 How so confused? It was clearly stated that contacts are easily seen on 4K while using Expert. SharpeXB seems to use a 4K TV. Say it is a size of 50" or more, the pic is different than on a 30" or so 4K monitor. Play on a 1080p monitor and then slap game on a 1080p TV. Quite a difference ;) Same applies to 4K. Nothing confusing there. And if people complain about distant contacts, do you ever fly on servers with CLOUDS? They make quite a difference on how you spot the planes as you do not see the contacts thru the clouds. A perfect way to avoid being seen, use them to conceal yourself. And as a bonus the almost invisible pixel mush you become against the clouds helps you even more. 

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Currently using a 27 inch 1080p monitor that I picked up for around $100 bucks on Ebay that was being sold as scratch and dent.  I do not feel like I'm at a disadvantage to those with a fancy high speed low drag gaming monitor.

 

Edited by -332FG-Garven

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This whole issue is a major dissapointment.  Like everyone else, I waited for 2 years for Bodenplatte and it could have been complety awesome, but then this.  I was away from IL-2 for several months doing other things and was really excited to come back, but now there are these two strange worlds of visibility dividing an already small MP community.  I like the Normal (the lower visibility option?) better than the Alternate (the one where you can see things a million miles).  The latter is too gamey, and if I wanted to play with something like that, I would probably just as well be on an Icon server, something I despise.  The former is better than the 10k bubble we had before, but I can't help thinking that this represents a missed opportunity to make the most realistic depiction possible, while also taking advantage of the new tools available to better compensate for some of the limitations of viewing the world on a 2D monitor in order to better simulate human vision...I think there was more that could have been done to tweak it instead of making people choose between these extremes.  I hope I'm wrong, but on it's face this seems like it could be really bad for MP numbers in any given server..  I don't care one bit about SP,  because i'm not interested in fighting inept AI airplanes.

 

Can anyone tell me which servers (like WoL, Combat Box, KoTA) are using which visibility system now?

 

 

Edited by SeaSerpent

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24 minutes ago, kalbuth said:

Well, for me the sky is now full of long distance dots. I take off, look around, go toward the fight.... Ez... If that's how IL2 MP is supposed to be, so be it...

Hopefully it's not.

 

4 hours ago, SCG_Wulfe said:

Once again, can we get one decent server to try expert visibility so that we can vote with our numbers by leaving and going to that server. Right now it’s pretty frustrating that “having options” is not resulting in that online.

I agree. It would make more sense to have a server side setting that would "lock" the alternative view in servers set up as "expert". Then if people want to fly in them they know what they are getting.

 

This is what is happening with servers set to alternative view from this evening. People can judge for themselves if this is better or worse than before. 

 

Edit: There is a point at around 7 seconds where an aircraft is visible but as zoom is used more or less disappears.  (yes, I know real pilots didn't use zoom) 

 

27 minutes ago, hrafnkolbrandr said:

So the new setting isn't a problem then, right?

 

It depends what people think is a problem I suppose. If aircraft look larger when further away than when they are closer, or the zoom is inverted or there are problems with LOD, I think that might be a problem.  What do you think?

8 minutes ago, SeaSerpent said:

Can anyone tell me servers (like WoL, Combat Box, KoTA) are using which visibility system now?

Most seem to be using alternative view I'm afraid to say. 

Edited by 6./ZG26_Custard

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4 minutes ago, 6./ZG26_Custard said:

Most seem to be using alternative view I'm afraid to say. 

 

That sucks. 

32 minutes ago, hrafnkolbrandr said:

 

Guess we'll just have to choose to fly on different servers or something.  Oh well.  Better than different games.

 

If numbers suck and there aren't enough people on a server with the visibility option that they like, some people might very well be choosing different games.

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20 minutes ago, SeaSerpent said:

 

That sucks. 

 

If numbers suck and there aren't enough people on a server with the visibility option that they like, some people might very well be choosing different games.

 

Seeing as a lot were already doing that before this happened, I think we'll be okay.

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The strange thing about the alternate visibility is that staying fully zoomed out is the best way I can ID targets up close.  Admittedly, that does suit me as, for some reason, I shoot better fully zoomed out.  The main difference I see is that with expert mode is that I can still spot at a distance. The objects just don't glow like UFOs.  Up close full zoomed-out, or zoomed in for that matter, target ID seems more defined.  

 

(I currently fly full-zoom-out with zoom-in only to ID close targets I'm unsure of.  I physically lean forward or backward with the Track-IR with zoom-out most other times.)

 

If the default in cockpit zoom that is preset by the devs is supposed to be the closest approximation of what one might see actually sitting in the model's cockpit and zoom is used sparingly (to more closely resemble focusing one's eyes rather than having binocular goggles), or not at all, how does each mode effect players that fly that way?   Are there any players that fly that way?  If so, what do they think about it?  

 

 

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8 minutes ago, hrafnkolbrandr said:

 

Seeing as a lot were already doing that before this happened, I think we'll be okay.

 

Who is "we"?  Having just asked what servers are running what, the answer came back that they are almost all running the unrealistic Super Viz setting.  As I type this post, I'm sitting here thinking that I don't want to bother with gamey settings like that, and that this is a dealbreaker if it doesn't change.

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8 minutes ago, Mobile_BBQ said:

Are there any players that fly that way?  If so, what do they think about it?  

I try not to zoom too much but I do use it. Its that old debate again but I believe it is implemented in game because a 2D monitor doesn't behave like a human eye, with its natural  field of view, pursuit movement, dynamic range and a host of other attributes that a monitor cannot replicate. I'm would assume that zooming more than halfway in would be an accurate representation of where a pilots head position should be dependent on monitor size used.     

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Being able to see stuff way across the world sucks. It ruins the hunt which for me can be as rewarding as the trigger pulling part.

 

Took off from rear field and could see every friendly taking off from the forward field over 30km way. Just because it is theoretically possible to see a contact that far, doesn't mean you should see every stinking one of them. That far away I would think on a good day maybe see a single or a couple but hell I could see 10 or so on the still on the ground and in the air around the forward airfield -- simply insane. All of those from that far away stand out for me as white and look like a flock of zeppelins.

 

The patch that allowed beyond 10km but didn't enlarge the distant contacts seemed really good to me. Or as SeaSerpent had mentioned -- would be nice they used a smaller enlargement of those far contacts -- something between no enlargement and what the alternate view is now -- I believe I would be more ok with that over what is being used.

 

Ones that want to see everything so that they can get in a fight more, ought to stick to dogfight furball servers or ones with ICONs on. For me flying VR, that's what the alternate visibility seems like -- might as well have ICONs on (maybe VR sees things more easily than a low res screen but I don't know about that). VR was a big plus for this -- the alternate visibility took a crap on that from what I'm experiencing.

 

I sure wish the "expert" servers would use the expert visibility settings.

Edited by HansBlitz
typo

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48 minutes ago, SeaSerpent said:

 

Who is "we"?  Having just asked what servers are running what, the answer came back that they are almost all running the unrealistic Super Viz setting.  As I type this post, I'm sitting here thinking that I don't want to bother with gamey settings like that, and that this is a dealbreaker if it doesn't change.

 

Where are you going to go then?

 

I play a few other games, and the thing that I noticed is that an awful lot of players knew about BoX or had played it before.  This is great for BoX because people know about it, and people talk about it.  However a lot of the people I talked to were staying away from it because they couldn't see a damn thing, and it wasn't as bad for them in whatever game we were playing at the moment.

 

I love the feel of flight in this game, and how well the aircraft are modelled; but I only play it sparingly online because up until now this was the only game that would leave me with eyestrain after an hour of flying around.

 

I would suggest heading over to the servers forum and talking with the server admins.  We have a list of 30+ servers under the 'dogfight' classification.  If everybody that has commented here in favor of "classic" BoX spotting leaned on them, certainly a few would give it a go.

 

Personally I am a little disappointed by the admission of no further development on this front, because I think the concept was good.  Just dial it back a little- Although I recognize that is easier said than done, and that there are time constraints as well.

Edited by hrafnkolbrandr
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I only knew the distance in my above example due to those contacts were friendlies at the forward airfield. Most of the time you don't know and often head off toward some to then realized due to the amount of time, those were ones you wouldn't have bothered with -- due to the distance.

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Some of the more popular servers seemed chock-full this weekend, tough to squeeze into Combat Box or KOTA, standing room only.  If "Alternate Visibility" grows the MP numbers, that's a good thing. 

 

Heck you could almost argue that this new feature improves aircraft visibility just by nature of there being much more of them to see... as opposed the other visibility setting where it's even more difficult to see other players because they're simply not present.

 

 

 

 

 

 

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12 minutes ago, =[TIA]=Stoopy said:

Some of the more popular servers seemed chock-full this weekend, tough to squeeze into Combat Box or KOTA, standing room only.  If "Alternate Visibility" grows the MP numbers, that's a good thing. 

 

Heck you could almost argue that this new feature improves aircraft visibility just by nature of there being much more of them to see... as opposed the other visibility setting where it's even more difficult to see other players because they're simply not present.

 

 

 

 

According to Mobile_BBQ, Combat Box is running the Normal (reduced) visibility.   If true, I plan to stick with that one.  That option isn't perfect, but it definitely is more realistic than the alternate setting, and not interested in selling out the realism just because it's more popular.  Hopefully it doesn't turn out to be the case in the long run, but I'd rather fly and fight on a less, but adequately populated server, than one that has more people in it, but the other option.  The 100k thing had some good aspects to it, but ultimately when all is said and done, I think it is just another way of doing Icons, without calling them Icons.

Edited by SeaSerpent
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12 minutes ago, SeaSerpent said:

 

According to Mobile_BBQ, Combat Box is running the Normal (reduced) visibility.   If true, I plan to stick with that one.  That option isn't perfect, but it definitely is more realistic than the alternate setting, and not interested in selling out the realism just because it's more popular.  Hopefully it doesn't turn out to be the case in the long run, but I'd rather fly and fight on a less, but adequately populated server, than one that has more people in it, but the other option.  The 100k thing had some good aspects to it, but ultimately when all is said and done, I think it is just another way of doing Icons, without calling them Icons.

 

Actually not being a smart @$$ but you should probably call that Expert (reduced) visibility or it further confuses the discussion.

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42 minutes ago, hrafnkolbrandr said:

"classic" BoX spotting 

The 10km bubble no longer exists at all in this game and I've seen no one ask for it to return.  

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Just now, -332FG-Garven said:

The 10km bubble no longer exists at all in this game and I've seen no one ask for it to return.  

 

You know what I'm talking about.  Nobody is asking for the bubble.

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6 minutes ago, hrafnkolbrandr said:

 

You know what I'm talking about

Wasn't sure.  Point is you can still see beyond 10km so one does no longer have to worry about having someone pop into existence inside your bubble and be in a merge with you in less than 40 seconds which is what classic spotting was before the patch.

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I wonder if the long contact could be some other color than white? White stands out too much. I think a darker color would be better.

 

The attached is what I see in VR. That is just the right eye, zoomed in, and I re-sampled it up some so it would be large enough to see on a monitor.

 

The VR is smoother looking for me than this zoomed in image.

White long distance contacts.jpg

Edited by HansBlitz

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16 minutes ago, HansBlitz said:

I wonder if the long contact could be some other color than white? White stands out too much. I think a darker color would be better.

 

 

The "alternative" spotting mode turned off in a nutshell.   

 

Alternative off takes into account the color of the plane, whether or not it has a flat or gloss finish - flat black, flat white, camouflage, green, chrome for example.  I don't think actual render distances are any different.  At least that's the way it seems to me. 

Edited by Mobile_BBQ

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Is combat box running with it off again? If so I’ll be there.

 

 

nope, still has it turned on. :(

Edited by SCG_Wulfe

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