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danielprates

The Rheinland map

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Ya Kuban is amazing map, gorgeous.  Rhineland is a disappointment to me, seriously hope the time is taken to flesh it out to the standard Kuban set.  I think what has been discovered is bigger is not better, so keep the maps smaller and segmented with much higher levels of detail.

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The landmarks, cities, roads, airfields, elevation, forrest are really nice. I also find the textures nice (bit disappointed with winter ones, tough). 

 

But the textures are just pasted plain on terrain. I do believe they'll fix this as they did with the other maps. 🙂

 

Cheers,

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8 minutes ago, PA-Sniv said:

I do believe they'll fix this as they did with the other maps. 🙂

 

 

I´m also very confident on that. My guess is that they had to meet a deadline and ressources were limited, hence priotities had to be set. The trackreckord of them shows me they will care and fill in the gaps.

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57 minutes ago, LeLv30_Redwing said:


I see people saying the map will be improved and I'm not sure what to think of it. Did I pay in advance for something that was not ready when published and now I just have to wait if it might get better and more enjoyable/usable in the future? This is like going to see Star Wars without CGI effects and a promise to see the final version with the same ticket 😊

 

 

Please keep in mind that “release” in this case does not indicate a final product, and thus is not analogous to paying for an unfinished movie.

 

As Jason indicated,  the “release” is an arbitrary thing, and simply indicates that enough work is done where they can start selling it. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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I just got the Bodenplatte campaign/ map on Steam and did some sightseeing runs. I`m especially interested in the winter map, since I`m working on a Bodenplatte short-film and I have to admit that I find it somehow underwhelming. I can understand that details have to be sacrificed to get a half-way playable map of that size, but I think particularly the Ardennes area doesn`t convey the atmosphere of being there.

Someone mentioned it here already, but for me it also feels more like russian vastness than the narrowness of the Ardennes valleys. If you fly over the "Bulge" area you can`t grasp why Kampfgruppe Peiper didn`t attack on a broad front.

I do understand that a flight sim doesn`t and can`t represent ground detail as in Red Dead Redemption 2, but is there really only one tree model that has to be used on the winter map? As someone else pointed it out already, where are the pines and spruces for example? 

Can`t there be snow covered trees or buildings? The vegetation and layout of fields does change from the eastern parts of Westphalia to the shores of the Netherlands... 

 

I think it`s really a pity that you cross the same dark (forest) patches and the same (snow) ground textures throughout the map...

 

Oh frosty hell, where are you? 😉

Landschaft 1.jpg

Landschaft 2.jpg

Edited by XShadowY
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4 hours ago, XShadowY said:

I just got the Bodenplatte campaign/ map on Steam and did some sightseeing runs. I`m especially interested in the winter map, since I`m working on a Bodenplatte short-film and I have to admit that I find it somehow underwhelming. I can understand that details have to be sacrificed to get a half-way playable map of that size, but I think particularly the Ardennes area doesn`t convey the atmosphere of being there.

Someone mentioned it here already, but for me it also feels more like russian vastness than the narrowness of the Ardennes valleys. If you fly over the "Bulge" area you can`t grasp why Kampfgruppe Peiper didn`t attack on a broad front.

I do understand that a flight sim doesn`t and can`t represent ground detail as in Red Dead Redemption 2, but is there really only one tree model that has to be used on the winter map? As someone else pointed it out already, where are the pines and spruces for example? 

Can`t there be snow covered trees or buildings? The vegetation and layout of fields does change from the eastern parts of Westphalia to the shores of the Netherlands... 

 

I think it`s really a pity that you cross the same dark (forest) patches and the same (snow) ground textures throughout the map...

 

Oh frosty hell, where are you? 😉

Landschaft 1.jpg

Landschaft 2.jpg

 

That is an interesting comment. The series certainly can do pines such as on the Moscow map. There was a note from Jason that the map team was likely to do a little more work on the Bodenplatte map so we may yet see more varieties with the trees as an example. There is precedent for that as IL-2: Battle of Moscow was launching, the initial version of the map looked a little like we have right now and then later they updated the map using real tree type data to populate the different areas of the map appropriately. Perhaps we'll see that!

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7 hours ago, Juri_JS said:

Does anyone know if the Rhineland map was build by the 1CGS team or by one of their partners (Ugra Media)? The difference in quality between Kuban and Rhineland is really striking, so for me it's hard believe that both maps were created by the same team.


I think it was Ugra Media. And they have a bit of a track record of questionable performance so far. 
 

They were behind the notoriously poor Normandy map for DCS. 
 

They were also tasked to create the Po-2 model, which we were told was a test to see if they could work on new aircraft for release as collector planes to add more types between releases. 
The Po-2 took well over a year from announcement to delivery, and since its release we’ve seen no more Ugra-built collector planes which would suggest they didn’t pass the test. 
 

They then had FC vol.1 to work on, and took slightly more than 24 months to port updated 3D models from ten existing aircraft from RoF into the BoX engine, which would not involve any work on the FMs. 
 

At the time, it was implied that FCv1 shouldn’t take long to release as all the assets were present in RoF. It also seemed likely that FC would have a career mode. 
After two years there is no singleplayer content and the devs have been openly questioning the financial viability of a second volume. 
I’d assess that 1C had to do a lot more work than expected to FC to pick up the slack for Ugra, and as a result with limited resources were not able to work on career or anything else. 
 

We’ve had BoBo released and BoN announced, but no mention of an FC vol.2 despite vol.1 being declared complete. 
This might suggest that it’s not worth contracting Ugra to work on more RoF ports, as 1C likely don’t have the manpower to work on two separate projects but they’ll inevitably have to bail Ugra out partway through. Obviously, 1C are committed to releasing a project once it is announced. 

Tank Crew is being worked on by a different studio - it will be interesting to see if a follow-up to that is announced once it is completed. That might give an indication as to whether it is the subject matter or the studio that is unprofitable. 


If Ugra have been working on the BoBo map, they will have been being supervised by 1C. However, it covers a wide area. 

A large map is presumably more difficult to quality check which could easily result in the sloppy Ugra errors listed above not being discovered. 
 

It’s likely there are contractual factors involved which mean 1C cannot just drop Ugra straight off the bat. But, with the release of BoBo and a more limited FC than was seemingly initially envisioned, and the announcement of BoN; I would imagine 1C will be evaluating their relationship with Ugra going forward. 
We know 1C is a small team and resources are said to be scarce. I don’t imagine there’s much room for passengers. 


Just my observations. 

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That is all speculation, albeit plausible.  What does bother me is that if you search for the original announcements for FC, TC or BoBP you get Error code: 2F173/O

 

They have been hidden. This is not a good look at all.  It reminds me of airbrushing out purged comrades in Stalin era May Day Parade photographs. If the team are unable to deliver on what was announced (note I do not say promised) they should just come out and say so. 

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On 10/15/2019 at 1:05 AM, ACG_Woop said:

As I have pointed out before, I find the map to be a bit empty. Many important villages and towns are missing, details in countryside, things that make the map come alive. 

 

To me it looks like the European equivalent of the Russian steppe. Towns are really nicely done, but there is nothing in between them. I imagine if a pilot would have to crash land in that area irl, he would invariably end up landing in someone's back garden. 

 

I'd like therefore to see more small towns added and farms and villages. 

 

Also the thing that started me on this was the fact that the Lion's Mound south of Brussels was missing, as well as the adjacent town of Waterloo. These are historical landmarks that can be used for orientation. 

 

As for the people saying that the war would have destroyed more things, I say 1st this is not that map but the pristine version I would think, and 2nd that villages would not have been damaged at all unless fighting on the ground had taken place in them.

For a densly populated country like germany, and with the Rheinland one of the most populated areas of germany, there are a lot of villages missing. Normally you find one every 5 km. Had a first look at the map yesterday, geographically it is spot on, but even stalingrads steppe has more villages than BoBp. . Also many of Rhein islands are just covered with generic field texture. It these little things that feel disappointing and wouldnt be that hard to implement in first place.

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My biggest problem right now is the drop of frames. I have a GeForce 970 4GB and I get down to around 30 fps what makes kind of weird when flying.

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28 minutes ago, ironk79 said:

 

For a densly populated country like germany, and with the Rheinland one of the most populated areas of germany, there are a lot of villages missing. Normally you find one every 5 km. Had a first look at the map yesterday, geographically it is spot on, but even stalingrads steppe has more villages than BoBp. . Also many of Rhein islands are just covered with generic field texture. It these little things that feel disappointing and wouldnt be that hard to implement in first place.

 

I have to agree: the more you examine it, the worse it looks. If the team cannot deliver these large maps without losing such a large proportion of the relevant content they would be better off either a) sticking to smaller maps, 2) finding a way to load the map in pieces so that all of the objects do not have to be loaded at once or 3) finding systematic way to get the community to fill in the gaps or 4) drastically reduce the load per object.  I expect that the team is thinking hard about this problem. 

 

I have no idea what is the best solution, but if the BoBP map is sufficiently disappointing to put hardened supporters off the series, the team needs a rethink.

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4 hours ago, unreasonable said:

That is all speculation, albeit plausible.  What does bother me is that if you search for the original announcements for FC, TC or BoBP you get Error code: 2F173/O

 

They have been hidden. This is not a good look at all.  It reminds me of airbrushing out purged comrades in Stalin era May Day Parade photographs. If the team are unable to deliver on what was announced (note I do not say promised) they should just come out and say so. 

 

Still there for everyone to see:

 

https://il2sturmovik.com/news/360/announcing-battle-bodenplatte-flying-circus-tank-c/

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7 hours ago, Royal_Flight said:


I think it was Ugra Media. And they have a bit of a track record of questionable performance so far. 
 

They were behind the notoriously poor Normandy map for DCS. 
 

They were also tasked to create the Po-2 model, which we were told was a test to see if they could work on new aircraft for release as collector planes to add more types between releases. 
The Po-2 took well over a year from announcement to delivery, and since its release we’ve seen no more Ugra-built collector planes which would suggest they didn’t pass the test. 
 

They then had FC vol.1 to work on, and took slightly more than 24 months to port updated 3D models from ten existing aircraft from RoF into the BoX engine, which would not involve any work on the FMs. 
 

At the time, it was implied that FCv1 shouldn’t take long to release as all the assets were present in RoF. It also seemed likely that FC would have a career mode. 
After two years there is no singleplayer content and the devs have been openly questioning the financial viability of a second volume. 
I’d assess that 1C had to do a lot more work than expected to FC to pick up the slack for Ugra, and as a result with limited resources were not able to work on career or anything else. 
 

We’ve had BoBo released and BoN announced, but no mention of an FC vol.2 despite vol.1 being declared complete. 
This might suggest that it’s not worth contracting Ugra to work on more RoF ports, as 1C likely don’t have the manpower to work on two separate projects but they’ll inevitably have to bail Ugra out partway through. Obviously, 1C are committed to releasing a project once it is announced. 

Tank Crew is being worked on by a different studio - it will be interesting to see if a follow-up to that is announced once it is completed. That might give an indication as to whether it is the subject matter or the studio that is unprofitable. 


If Ugra have been working on the BoBo map, they will have been being supervised by 1C. However, it covers a wide area. 

A large map is presumably more difficult to quality check which could easily result in the sloppy Ugra errors listed above not being discovered. 
 

It’s likely there are contractual factors involved which mean 1C cannot just drop Ugra straight off the bat. But, with the release of BoBo and a more limited FC than was seemingly initially envisioned, and the announcement of BoN; I would imagine 1C will be evaluating their relationship with Ugra going forward. 
We know 1C is a small team and resources are said to be scarce. I don’t imagine there’s much room for passengers. 


Just my observations. 

Another interesting thing about Ugra is: DCS was planning to update Normandy map in November(see announcement june 14th), there's no release date now.

Edited by Oyster_KAI

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Sounds more like gossip and speculation at the ladies knitting club

 

😀

 

Cheers, Dakpilot 

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54 minutes ago, Oyster_KAI said:

Another interesting thing about Ugra is: DCS was planning to update Normandy map in November(see announcement june 14th), there's no release date now.

DCS Normandy map is complete ripp off, terrible map plus ww2 assets for 60$. I regreted buying that!

But again PG map is no better, plastic terrain and textures.

 

1C devs said they will continue work on Rheinland map and if above said by others is true about Urga media i hope BoN map will be made by 1C cos that map alone is the reason i'll buy BoN.

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3 hours ago, sevenless said:

 

Yes that is true: I should have specified that only the original, dated, announcements are missing from the forum, giving an Error code: 2F173/O when you search for them via Google or any other page that linked to them, although other pages going back to 2012 are still there. No doubt the current store page listing is identical in every respect to the original forum announcement, and this is some purely technical glitch.  

 

 

 

 

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7 minutes ago, EAF_Ribbon said:

DCS Normandy map is complete ripp off, terrible map plus ww2 assets for 60$. I regreted buying that!

But again PG map is no better, plastic terrain and textures.

 

1C devs said they will continue work on Rheinland map and if above said by others is true about Urga media i hope BoN map will be made by 1C cos that map alone is the reason i'll buy BoN.

Yeah, I can't imagine that Omaha beach without grit :lol:
BON plane set is good, but I have a pessimistic view of map.

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8 hours ago, Royal_Flight said:


I think it was Ugra Media. And they have a bit of a track record of questionable performance so far. 
 

They were behind the notoriously poor Normandy map for DCS. 
 

 

 

 

Bought it and returned it the same day. A dog's breakfast of a map. Maybe it's better now. (The Nevada and Persian Gulf maps are great! Just saying.)

 

 

 

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36 minutes ago, EAF_Ribbon said:

...I hope BoN map will be made by 1C cos that map alone is the reason i'll buy BoN.

That map alone, as anounced/presented, is the reason I will not buy BoN yet.

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It's always the same with outsourcing work or jobs - just look at all the failed projects, when quality standards are not supervised correctly.

Outsourcing causes more trouble than anything else - you may be fast in delivering, but at the cost of quality.

And this outsourcing is meant to save costs, but at the end it gets always more expensive because you have to rectify / improve / optimize!

 

I will spend money for the collector planes for sure, but BoN is out of question for me at the moment! I like to spend money to have a good

time for my hobby, no matter what it costs. But only if the quality is high. The older you get, the more you care about your time you may have

left - so, no time for anger, no time for frustration in my hobby. Hobby is one of my quality time.

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PROKHOROVKA is the most convincing map to fly over for me, Kuban its also great, specially Autumn textures.

Every map is much better than Rhineland IMHO, was thinking that while flying in Moscow map yesterday in TAW.

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On 12/4/2019 at 4:07 PM, Oyster_KAI said:

472183150_Il-22019-12-0422-52-58.thumb.jpg.69f800352d5c152fd5beab35e8a4f8cb.jpg
I hope we can get sandy beach and remove the strange farm or roads on the sandbank.
Kuban map was done well, could we own the same quality on rheinland map? 
I go to check north coast everytime when game update, maybe someday I will be happy.

 

This screenshot of Zeeland represents the  Bodenplatte map more than the juicy Köln + Dom tower sunset images of the official DD's: empty, bland and generic textures, geographically and historically incorrect.

Perhaps that's what happens if you outsource the job to a Russian company without likely not so much affinity with Western Europe. As if they based the map on a few sources and all informations supplied here by members being ignored. I have the feeling the map was more like homework for Ugra-Media rather than the challenge of creating a 1944 area come to life.

 

Jason commented that maybe they improve the map further, but time will tell and a few weeks later Han stated in DD #234  they will continue to improve the Rheinland map after the release.

What Han said sounds a bit more hopeful to me but to what extend it will be improved is unknown.

To make it convincing and lifelike it needs a complete overhaul.

 

Have a look to good old IL2:1946  Battle of France/Western Front map. Very atmospheric and convincing despite it is an old game with its many limitations.

Everything BOBP is missing is present like industrial and mining areas, cities, villages, marshalling yards, harbours, dams ánd yes, a populated Zeeland.

https://www.sas1946.com/main/index.php/topic,44070.msg676384.html#msg676384

 

17-04-2018-21-10-59.jpg

 

Oignies-4.jpg

 

Ostende.jpg

 

Edited by Uufflakke
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Well i'm pretty sure they'll fix/improve it, this thread and comments guarantee that.

So far devs listened and reacted for even less fuss!

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1 hour ago, Uufflakke said:

Have a look to good old IL2:1946  Battle of France/Western Front map. Very atmospheric and convincing despite it is an old game with its many limitations.

Everything BOBP is missing is present like industrial and mining areas, cities, villages, marshalling yards, harbours, dams ánd yes, a populated Zeeland.

https://www.sas1946.com/main/index.php/topic,44070.msg676384.html#msg676384

 

Wow!!!

I wish we have such neat details on Rheinland map...

 

Anvers-1.jpg

Rotterdam-1.jpg

Rotterdam-3.jpg

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Ugra is tied up with Syria map for dcs, then they are also currently working on fixing the Normandy map in dcs.  So if they did Rhineland here which I think they didn’t as it doesn’t show up on their website...  on dcs side people are certainly not happy with their performance thus shown.  If they did do this Rhineland map then it’s no surprise it’s lacking allot of the hate to call it small details but ya small details.

  For me the maps are the most important outside the  Fm and DM,  the ground battle and air to ground needs the proper representation and fidelity just as much as the quake cloud dancing stuff.

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I am also very disappointed with the Rheinland map.  I will not rehash the reasons since they are clearly stated in this post.  For me map quality and detail are right up there with aircraft modeling (which is excellent) and career missions (which have a good foundation but need much more variety).  I did pre order BON since the devs have a good track record of continuing to enhance maps after release and have indicated they will do so for Rheinland.  

 

However if Rheinland  is not brought up to at least the standard of Kuban this will be my last map pre purchase.  I will have to make purchasing decisions based on final release quality.  I am confident improvements will be made but question the extent since this map needs substantial enhancement requiring a lot of resources.  We will just have to wait and see.

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6 hours ago, Dakpilot said:

Sounds more like gossip and speculation at the ladies knitting club

 

😀

 

Cheers, Dakpilot 

 

I'll say no more on the subject but truly intriguing that you have the experience to be able to make that parallell. 😉

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2 hours ago, Tapi said:

Wow!!!

I wish we have such neat details on Rheinland map...

 

Rotterdam-1.jpg

 

Wow indeed. I wish they would hire more people and fix the BOBP map to look like this. I'd rather have 5-10 big cities and some villages in between on s smaller map than what we have now.

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S!

 

Least flown map for me is the Rheinland. Those repetitive tiles and emptiness everywhere. Even those old IL-2 shots above look better. Ugra Media dropped the ball with DCS Normandy map already, a hideous map with awful colors and shore lines like done with a ruler..Best looking maps now are Kuban and Prokhorovka.

Edited by LLv34_Flanker
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14 minutes ago, LLv34_Flanker said:

S!

 

Least flown map for me is the Rheinland. Those repetitive tiles and emptiness everywhere. Even those old IL-2 shots above look better. Ugra Media dropped the bal with DCS Normandy map already, a hideous map with awful colors and shore lines like done with a ruler..Best looking maps now are Kuban and Prokhorovka.

My 2nd time in BoBp, Just finished a few 4vs4 QMB dogfights, the inconsistend and unfinished look is even distracting while dogfighting. The shorelines of BOS look miles better than the ones in BoBp, and dont get me started on the textures that were slapped on top of each other. At the end the map looks more like some dudes spare time mod, than a product that is on sale. I am gratefull for the new planes, but the map needs some serious attention. I dont see me playing this map anytime soon.

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I don’t imagine Ugra Media would be doing any rework of the map for free. Perhaps releasing map editor tools would be cheaper.  

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First I noticed of this emptiness in the Rhineland map, was when looking at a map of the area, I thought Hey I've been there! Lets see how it looks in the game! Finds only fields for miles around when the area is full of important landmarks irl. Disappointing indeed.

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From re-reading the dev diaries it seems to me that Ugra Media were responsible for the Arras map, while the Bodenplatte map was done in-house by the dev team.

 

Can't be 100% definitve on that, but it's certainly the impression gained if you read through what is published in the DDs.

 

Just to say, before the various speculations here harden into established fact...

 

edit: Also, maybe we should hold fire just a bit until we see what difference the promised updates make

 

 

Edited by kendo
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1 hour ago, kendo said:

From re-reading the dev diaries it seems to me that Ugra Media were responsible for the Arras map, while the Bodenplatte map was done in-house by the dev team.

 

Can't be 100% definitve on that, but it's certainly the impression gained if you read through what is published in the DDs.

 

Just to say, before the various speculations here harden into established fact...

 

edit: Also, maybe we should hold fire just a bit until we see what difference the promised updates make

 

 

 

Finally it doesn't matter who did the map - the responsibility is yet alone the job of the publisher/producer. They are responsible for the content and the quality.

Even if this project was partially outsourced or not - they have to find a way to fix and improve it.

 

We very often read or hear that flight sims are a niche and especially combat flight sims, so for this very same reason a producer should be well aware of how

a product is accepted (or the quality of it) by the small community. And that being said, it is important for such a small team having the chance to raise money

with pre-order promotions to continue their work. On the other hand this means that the released work should meet the expectations of this small customer group.

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1 hour ago, -=-THERION said:

 

On the other hand this means that the released work should meet the expectations of this small customer group.

 

Even if the expense of doing that puts them out of business?

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I have given some thought to how to enhance the Rheinland map to be more reflective of the actual feel of the area during the war with what would seem to be a reasonable level of effort (a lot of cut and paste type enhancements). I am not a programmer so I could be completely wrong about the effort involved if so fine.

 

I am a huge fan of BOX and would really like to see this map filled out to reflect the level of quality evident in the Kuban map.  Perhaps these enhancements could be added overtime as BON is developed as well as being used for that map.

 

This post is presented in the spirt of positive feedback for improvement not criticism.  I know the devs did the best they could based on time and resource constraints and much of the work already done is very nice.

 

I realize some of you don’t care that much about the level of detail in the map, which is fine, but many people do and for those people this could mean additional sales for this project as well as future projects.  Even implementing a few of these suggestions could make a huge difference in the quality of the map.

 

1) Add a few additional farm field textures to vary the look between coastal areas (Netherlands/Belgium) and further inland (Germany).  Also add grass texture (reuse from other maps) where farm fields should not be, such as islands in rivers and areas along shorelines.

 

2) Add more of the existing suburb presets around cities so they blend more smoothly into the countryside.  Currently the transition from many of the cities to farm fields is to abrupt.

 

3) Build some generic small town/village presets with 5 or 10 variations.  Could use those already built for FC as a starting point and paste them where small towns and villages existed at the time.  No need to add all the small towns and villages that existed (would be too time consuming and possibly cause performance issues) but at least fill in some of the empty rural areas and around cities.

 

4) Same as # 2 above but generic farms.  Paste a few around suburbs/towns/villages (can be random placement).  Again, no need to go crazy to balance performance.   FYI - this was done back in the 90s in European Air War.

 

5) Add a few more roads or at least make the existing roads stand out a bit more.  This would really help with high altitude navigation across the map.  This is done very well in parts of the Kuban map between some of the larger towns.  Also add divided highways where the autobahns existed

.

6) Add evergreen trees into the forests particularly in the inland hilly areas.   Use existing assets from BOM.

 

7) Improve river and shoreline transitions same as on the Kuban map reusing the same assets.

 

8 Add in some railyards (can be generic) and increase at least the main rail routes to two tracks so they will be more consistent with the actual rail system and more visible from high altitude, making navigation easier.

 

9) Add some static ships in ports.  Could use existing Kuban cargo ships.

 

10) As in the Stalingrad map, include some barge traffic and integrate into future missions.  Could reuse the same assets and modify them to make more consistent with European river traffic.  Don’t need to add huge numbers – just a few here and there would be fine.

 

11) Where it makes sense backfill new assets built for BON into the Rhineland map – especially target assets.

 

12)  I know there are thousands of unique landmarks that could be added in, but I understand this would be way too time consuming and expensive.  Perhaps a small number could be added overtime if relevant to missions or historical events.

 

The plane set that comes with the Rhineland map is outstanding and I would like the map to be of equal quality.

Edited by S10jleffert
typo correction.
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The only things that really disappoint me with the map are the lack of small towns/villages, and lack of freight yards/industry (I haven't found any) it makes the world feel a bit empty/fake.

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15 minutes ago, BraveSirRobin said:

 

Even if the expense of doing that puts them out of business?

 

Ridiculous - it's like saying: "Produce low/medium quality and stay in business?" Pft...

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