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Game version 3.201 discussion: Rhineland and Arras maps, Tempest Mk.V, P-51D-15, P-38J-25

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On 10/10/2019 at 3:57 PM, Voidhunger said:

I still have some sound anomalies, for now in Me262 and Tempest.ūüėē

 

Me too, since the 3.201b hotfix; the Tempest has a very weird and sadly extremely noticable digitised-like 'droning' especially on flyby, for example when a third-person tempest flies overhead, the engine sound is replaced with this strange noise as it flies 'away' from you, leaving just this strange noise.

 

Edited by GSHWK_Houndstone_Hawk
Fix spelling error
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8 hours ago, HappyHaddock said:

 

I've noticed similar "erratic" issues with mods-on mode even when I don't actually have any mods enabled and whilst I am far from sure of the cause I'm starting to suspect some sort of memory or cache clearing issue. There are occasions it seems that JSGME is not wholly removing all of a mods files when you disable that mod within JSGME.

 

using the game to turn all mods off seems to avoid the issues but makes it impossible to clear one mod whilst still using another, other than disabling all mods then turning mods off to clear the memory and then re-enabling mods and applying only those you do want.

 

If this is the case it might be said that the problem isn't directly the fault of IL-2 but the way a third party mod enabler interacts with IL-2

Good point.  I hadn't considered that.  JSGME has always seemed so benign. 

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On 10/12/2019 at 8:06 PM, Jason_Williams said:


Folks who are complaining about stutters need to also understand that it may not be graphics related.

 

1. Try flying on one of our older maps.

2. Try flying with no AI or less AI. 
3. And when making such statements we really need to know what update are you referring too exactly. Main update or hotfix.

 

Jason

 

Ad. 1.

Stuttering occurs in MP and does not depend on the map (observed on Stalingrad, Kuban and Rheinland). Animations are fluid, changing graphic settings does not eliminate the problem, frames per second (though lower with latest patch) are not likely to be the culprit. Stuttering can be observed whenever the view angle / FoV changes (which is basically a constant process in flight). These negative effects vary between servers and seem to be consistent for most populated ones (thus might be related to connection delay or server hardware).

Ad. 2.

Number of units/objects in singleplayer does not introduce (significant) stuttering. The only problem there (in SP) is lower framerate, which gets worse in more populated areas, and more acceptable in empty ones. This carries over also to multiplayer of course.

Ad. 3.

In my case average fps dropped by about 30 after the latest main update, and this persists after hotfixes.

 

Platform:

RTX2060, i5 6600, GSync 2560x1440

 

Edited by RavN_Sone
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12 hours ago, Beebop said:

Good point.  I hadn't considered that.  JSGME has always seemed so benign. 

In my particular case however there's been no JSGME involved at all.

As mentioned earlier, I tried a full clean reinstall (which is easy peasy thanks to Steam) and started right there.

 

:drinks:

Mike

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very stutters after up date in MP.I already tried everything please devs work in this part, it's not just me that I'm reporting this

Edited by 9./JG54_GERMANWOLF
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23 minutes ago, 9./JG54_GERMANWOLF said:

very stutters after up date in MP.I already tried everything please devs work in this part, it's not just me that I'm reporting this

 

Take a look at this, it has helped me a lot:

 

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I don't think that blurred pictures, general FPS issues and stutters are related to each other at all.

 

:drinks:

Mike

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Last year jumped same problem after a big patch (sorrry don't remember what was..) studders with A.I. or online other players in the visual.

I solved re-installing the whole game.

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Yep, we've been there before¬†ūüėČ

 

On a sidenote, we've had a short session with some friends on sunday and when we've been over an (AI-) crowded airfield, the stuttering was rather bad for all of us.

Today I thought I'd play back the track which I've recorded on that sortie (wanted to see what exactly got me there) and much to my surprise, in playing back the untouched recording, without touching any controls, so I saw exactly what I saw while flying the sortie, including head movement from TrackIR, zoom in/out etc... guess what? No stutters.

Not at all. Smooth as silk. Same settings, same sortie, same PC, everything's the same.

MP Online: Severe stuttering. Track Playback: Smooth as silk.

 

:drinks:

Mike

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2 hours ago, SAS_Storebror said:

Yep, we've been there before¬†ūüėČ

 

On a sidenote, we've had a short session with some friends on sunday and when we've been over an (AI-) crowded airfield, the stuttering was rather bad for all of us.

Today I thought I'd play back the track which I've recorded on that sortie (wanted to see what exactly got me there) and much to my surprise, in playing back the untouched recording, without touching any controls, so I saw exactly what I saw while flying the sortie, including head movement from TrackIR, zoom in/out etc... guess what? No stutters.

Not at all. Smooth as silk. Same settings, same sortie, same PC, everything's the same.

MP Online: Severe stuttering. Track Playback: Smooth as silk.

 

:drinks:

Mike


This is a clue possibly. Thanks for doing that test. I’m traveling back home from Moscow. Will do my own testing on my home machines and fly MP with my usual setup. It’s really hard to get a feel from my hotel or the office on a laptop. Our testing I’m the office did not show what some of you are reporting. So it’s strange. We didn’t make any changes to MP. We only allowed users to limit frames with Vsync On.
 

Jason

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On 10/13/2019 at 10:17 AM, Field-Ops said:

I started capping my FPS to 80 instead of letting the game go as high as possible so the variation between fast and slow rendered frames isnt as severe. Works like a charm. I dont get dips in fps as much and when I do they go by just about unnoticed. 

 

Same here! I have a 7700K @ 4,8 ghz, RTX 2080 and 32 gb of ram and was getting stuttering with the new patch (before it was perfect). I've read around that capping the FPS at 80 will do the trick and it really did, I don't have stuttering anymore. However, I have a 144 hz screen and I am not taking advantage of it in IL2 now so despite the 80 fps cap did the trick, I think that there are things to be fixed by the devs.

Edited by III/JG52_Al-Azraq

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2 minutes ago, III/JG52_Al-Azraq said:

 

Same here! I have a 7700K @ 4,8 ghz, RTX 2080 and 32 gb of ram and was getting stuttering with the new patch (before it was perfect). I've read around that capping the FPS at 80 will do the trick and it really did, I don't have stuttering anymore. However, I have a 144 hz screen and I am not taking advantage of it in IL2 now so despite the 80 fps cap did the trick, I think that there are things to be fixed by the devs.

I have a lowly I7-3770..GTX1060, set to 80 fps cap, and I'm still pulling 40 fps and never had stutter, with no clouds, but if I add clouds, it's a different story,.. I drop to 25 fps, so I'm really looking forward to the cloud update.

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Same here. While locking frames helps a little, I'm not getting stable 60 fps in contested areas now, so there's not really much to lock to. 

Lower framerate might not be connected directly to the stuttering issue, but it does affect it.

 

Do the far away clouds affect distant contact rendering? I can't stop thinking it must somehow be connected to the spotting overhaul. 

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Hello Dev’s 

 

My PC specs:

 

EDIT: 2018-08-16, Since I made this video I am on High Sierra 10.13.6 and  I modified an existing  Clover Boot Screen based on the Carbon theme. The best Guides I have found are from hackintosher.com

 

Phantek Enthoo Evolv ATX Glass (Anthracite Grey)

be quiet! STRAIGHT POWER 10 800W PSU

Gigabyte GA-270X Ultra Gaming Mobo

Intel i7 7700k Kaby Lake 4.2 Ghz processor

NZXT - Kraken X62 Rev 2 98.2 CFM Liquid CPU Cooler

G.Skill - Trident Z RGB 16GB (2 x 8GB) DDR4-3866 Memory

MSI GTX 970 Gaming 4G

Samsung 840 PRO SSD for WIndows 10 latest version. 

 

I locked my medium settings to 60FPS and never experienced stutters in multiplayer Kuban Map

 

I had to tweak and lower my settings ever since the update.

 

I hope this is enough information.

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6 hours ago, III/JG52_Al-Azraq said:

I have a 144 hz screen and I am not taking advantage of it in IL2 now so despite the 80 fps cap did the trick, I think that there are things to be fixed by the devs.

 

That's about the same situation I'm facing, but to be brutally honest, there's so many things contributing to stutters that not necessarily IL-2 is to blame at all, at least not always and everywhere.

For instance, with my old rig (same GTX 970 GPU, but i5-2500K CPU) I've had no stuttering at all in IL-2 GB.

After upgrading to an i5-9600K the stuttering began, but not just with IL-2 Great Battles. The same thing happened in IL-2 1946. Odd enough, it doesn't happen in any other games I play or tried to play for comparison (e.g. MS Flight Simulator X, an old copy of MS Flight! which I kept on my HDD, Dovetail Games' Flight Sim World, Red Orchestra 1+2 etc. pp.).

But again, it wasn't IL-2 Great Battles alone, IL-2 1946 was affected by those pesky micro-stutters to the very same extent.

Those general Micro-Stutters I've observed went away for me completely after applying the FPS cap - both in IL-2 Great Battles and IL-2 1946.

I'm left with the multiplayer stuttering happening on odd occasions only, which to me isn't a show stopper, it's just a bit nasty and I trust in the devs that they'll find a way to solve it, even if only in the long run.

 

But: What I want to tell is that reasons for stuttering can vary a lot.

I've read endless "expert" comments on the matter because I couldn't believe that my new, more powerful rig, would perform worse than the old one.

The preliminary conclusion is that some users report frame spikes on i5 CPUs like mine causing such kind of stuttering.

Maybe that's the cause, maybe not, but bums feeling tells me that parts of the stuttering issues might be outside the sphere of influence of the IL-2 devs.

 

:drinks:

Mike

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When I bind my my coolie switch of my warthog Hotas located on my right throttle to control the oil and water radiators since it is a hat switch the bind is accepted but does not work in the Mustang when putting both rads on manual. 
 

I have no hardware issues as they work for other buttons
 

I don’t use Target Software

 

DAB97036-DE9C-4E41-B560-E07035EE79CF.jpeg

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@BSS_Ripper*

Guessing from memory, but maybe these planes radiators use different control methods? Check in options, the engine controls are often split into button set and separate axis, depending on specific plane. 

As do trims now, some of this stuff was redesigned with latest patch. 

Edited by RavN_Sone

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On 10/13/2019 at 2:06 AM, Jason_Williams said:


Folks who are complaining about stutters need to also understand that it may not be graphics related.

 

1. Try flying on one of our older maps.

2. Try flying with no AI or less AI. 
3. And when making such statements we really need to know what update are you referring too exactly. Main update or hotfix.

 

Jason

 

My findings.

 

For reference here are my graphics settings in the spoiler tags. Machine specs are in my sig.

Supersampling is set to 200% in the SteamVR tool.

I run VR, a HTC Vive.

 

 

Spoiler

[KEY = graphics]
    3dhud = 0
    adapter = 0
    bloom_enable = 0
    desktop_center = 1
    detail_rt_res = 1024
    draw_distance = 0.27400
    far_blocks = 1
    fps_counter = 1
    fps_limit = 0
    full_height = 1080
    full_width = 1920
    fullscreen = 1
    gamma = 0.70000
    grass_distance = 100.00000
    hdr_enable = 1
    land_anisotropy = 1
    land_tex_lods = 2
    max_cache_res = 1
    max_clouds_quality = 2
    mgpu_compatible = 0
    mirrors = 0
    multisampling = 1
    or_ca = 0.00000
    or_enable = 1
    or_height = 2376
    or_hud_rad = 1.50000
    or_hud_size = 0.75000
    or_ipd = 0.06400
    or_sipdc = 0.00000
    or_width = 2136
    post_sharpen = 1
    preset = 2
    rescale_target = 1.00000
    shadows_quality = 2
    ssao_enable = 0
    stereo_dof = 5.00000
    vsync = 0
    win_height = 768
    win_width = 1360
[END]

 

Offline -

Map - Moscow Autumn 1941, 109G14, default load-out, northwestern single plane spawn.

QMB, single plane only - clouds vs no clouds is a significant FPS difference.

QMB, single plane only + cloudy - clouds set to high results in FPS much lower than on previous releases.

There is no stuttering in QMB with only my plane in the sky when viewing from the cockpit. Just reduced FPS due to clouds.

 

Clouds high/cloudy = 12.5ms

med/cloudy 9.5ms

med/clear 7.0ms

high/clear 7.0ms

 

7ms = 142 fps.

9.5ms = 105fps

12.5ms = 80fps.

 

 

Multiplayer - Amount of stutters significantly increases with increased player counts. When the map first loads, if you get in early with a low player count there is still some stuttering, but it is reduced.

 

As an example - Berloga was running no clouds yet there was still significant FPS impact and stuttering.

Looking again at frametimes  in Berloga MP server -

Clouds set to high but the map weather is clear, I am seeing the majority of frame times at 7.0ms which matches QMB, but there is significant spikes well over the 11.1ms/90fps limit which is the stuttering visible in the display. As I flew around, it was not consistent, on rare occasions, I could look at a relatively close furball and frametimes stayed at ~7.0ms. Looking back at a contact further away and the stuttering starts, but the stutters were typically always occurring.

 

The hotfixes were in relatively quick succession, but I don't think they were the cause. I recall seeing performance impact right from the main release of the new planes.

 

Edited by =EXPEND=Tripwire
Added QMB map

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Re: stutters

 

My observations: since the hotfix was introduced I have noted stutters when moving my head with TrackIR making spotting difficult.

 

Symptoms occur on MP servers using both visibility settings i.e. KOTA and Combat Box but not in QMB. 

 

My rig: i7-4xxx, 24gb ram, GTX1070 8 GB VRam BoX installed on 1T SSD. Win 10 on separate SSD.

 

Hypothesis: high object count was causing stutters or . mission vs .msnbn issue

 

Test: built mission with high object count and AI (12453k as .mission and ~2300k as .msnbn). Mission ran on DServer with a Gigabit fibre connection. Server located in my basement near Ottawa.  Two testers were located in the Dallas area and had ping of 30 & 32

 

Result: all testers agreed that performance was smooth and stutters did not occur under any conditions. Combat with large number of AI, high flak concentration, clouds, low level near cities and airfields with large numbers of ground objects had no apparent effect on stutters.

 

Conclusion: stutters are most likely not related to mission size, object count, presence of AI or type (. mission vs .msnbn)

 

Supposition: stutters are related to player count. I will attempt to run the same mission and increase player count.

 

 

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Just for reference, this is the kind of "micro stuttering" I'm talking about on multiplayer.

It's been recorded by @DerSheriff lately, at 11:30 stuttering is imminent:

 

I've seen the same effect, just much worse, with just 3 players on our Server with 1GBit/s connection, ping times below 30ms, and the Server is well within limits (Tick Delay ~13).

To me it looked like it depended on the presence of Aircraft nearby, regardless whether they were player or AI controlled.

 

:drinks:

Mike

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8 hours ago, RavN_Sone said:

@BSS_Ripper*

Guessing from memory, but maybe these planes radiators use different control methods? Check in options, the engine controls are often split into button set and separate axis, depending on specific plane. 

As do trims now, some of this stuff was redesigned with latest patch. 

@RavN_Sone

 

Tanks!, Ok I confirm that the P-51 is not using the oil nor water radiators shutter control axis. It is either using the Bf 109/110 Spit or He-111 BF 110!  I binded them all!  It would be nice to see the P-51 identified.

 

 

 

InkedIL-2  Sturmovik  Battle of Stalingrad Screenshot 2019.10.15 - 18.52.53.79_LI.jpg

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15 hours ago, SAS_Storebror said:

 

That's about the same situation I'm facing, but to be brutally honest, there's so many things contributing to stutters that not necessarily IL-2 is to blame at all, at least not always and everywhere.

For instance, with my old rig (same GTX 970 GPU, but i5-2500K CPU) I've had no stuttering at all in IL-2 GB.

After upgrading to an i5-9600K the stuttering began, but not just with IL-2 Great Battles. The same thing happened in IL-2 1946. Odd enough, it doesn't happen in any other games I play or tried to play for comparison (e.g. MS Flight Simulator X, an old copy of MS Flight! which I kept on my HDD, Dovetail Games' Flight Sim World, Red Orchestra 1+2 etc. pp.).

But again, it wasn't IL-2 Great Battles alone, IL-2 1946 was affected by those pesky micro-stutters to the very same extent.

Those general Micro-Stutters I've observed went away for me completely after applying the FPS cap - both in IL-2 Great Battles and IL-2 1946.

I'm left with the multiplayer stuttering happening on odd occasions only, which to me isn't a show stopper, it's just a bit nasty and I trust in the devs that they'll find a way to solve it, even if only in the long run.

 

But: What I want to tell is that reasons for stuttering can vary a lot.

I've read endless "expert" comments on the matter because I couldn't believe that my new, more powerful rig, would perform worse than the old one.

The preliminary conclusion is that some users report frame spikes on i5 CPUs like mine causing such kind of stuttering.

Maybe that's the cause, maybe not, but bums feeling tells me that parts of the stuttering issues might be outside the sphere of influence of the IL-2 devs.

 

:drinks:

Mike

 

Same experience here mate.

 

I think that this is a problem with servers tickrate and performance. I have always had some stuttering in MP matches specially with plane populated areas furthermore, I even took advantage of these stutters and I knew that when they hapened, someone was around. I suspect that now with the increased rendering distance the netcode and the servers are struggling even more so the stuttering became worse.

 

Capping the FPS works because I assume that the computer is rendering future frames (other games have an option in the settings to enable this usually called 'Future Frame Rendering') and storing them in a buffer so it has enough room to correct this stuttering. With uncapped frames or frames capped above your system capabilities, the system lags behind and can't render frames on time thus causing frame time issues (do not get mistaken by FPS, they are different things). It doesn't happen in other games or SP so I think it is an issue to be corrected both in the netcode side, and how the engine renders it so it can save resources to the servers.

 

This is my opinion from my experience in many PC games, not a universal truth.

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At very low settings:

Il-2_2019-10-17_03-36-24.thumb.png.cbc45b625b508c32fde9d637ca253bfa.png

 

There are periodic stutters online:

FrafsBenchViewer_2019-10-17_01-25-47.thumb.png.aa5aa1f5c6cef43c54b439723d633e6b.png

 

Offline for comparison:

FrafsBenchViewer_2019-10-17_01-27-34.thumb.png.6f0b49080e4df0a2bfa2e789db716c38.png

 

Hardware: GTX1070 + 3770k@4.6GHz

It does not depend on server and players count. You can spawn on the empty server and look at the sky and you get stutters anyway.

Someone who knows how to use fraps please confirm this.

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1 hour ago, TUS_Samuel said:

At very low settings:

Il-2_2019-10-17_03-36-24.thumb.png.cbc45b625b508c32fde9d637ca253bfa.png

 

There are periodic stutters online:

FrafsBenchViewer_2019-10-17_01-25-47.thumb.png.aa5aa1f5c6cef43c54b439723d633e6b.png

 

Offline for comparison:

FrafsBenchViewer_2019-10-17_01-27-34.thumb.png.6f0b49080e4df0a2bfa2e789db716c38.png

 

Hardware: GTX1070 + 3770k@4.6GHz

It does not depend on server and players count. You can spawn on the empty server and look at the sky and you get stutters anyway.

Someone who knows how to use fraps please confirm this.

Try turn on - Use 4k textures, Vsync

if dont help, try full screen ON also

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1 hour ago, TUS_Samuel said:

Hardware: GTX1070 + 3770k@4.6GHz

It does not depend on server and players count. You can spawn on the empty server and look at the sky and you get stutters anyway.

 

I don`t know, WoL is the most stuttery for me. Others seem to run much better. 

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Fantastic Patch!

 

IL2- GB is by far the best WW2 combat flight simulator on the market.

I am confident that all minor issues will be sorted out with the time.

 

My congratulations to the dev team!

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19 hours ago, LLv24_Zami said:

WoL is the most stuttery for me

 

Captured at WoL:

FrafsBenchViewer_2019-10-17_22-36-33.thumb.png.6577ce3bd5ce6d81d9867e2789a2e983.png

 

Frametimes from 7 ms (144 FPS) to 80 ms (12 FPS) in subsequent frames in slowly changing scene (on route without fights nearby). Real-time is just terrible.

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Just flied at WOL and then at KOTA and stuttering at WOL was noticeably worse.

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For those of you on Windows 10, be advised that one of the windows updates that came for me around the same time as the patch reverted a lot of my audio settings, and also changed my power consumption to "balanced" instead of high performance and screwed up several other things. Resolving that, and some other tweaks, have brought my stuttering down even further. 2 hours on combat box last night, and only a few stutters, about the same as before the patch for me. I posted in the topic below. Your mileage may vary of course, but I hope this helps some people.
 

 

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Guys,

 

This is NOT the thread to discuss such technical issues. Do so in the Technical Issue section of the forum. I've made a special thread just for this issue. Not all users and even the team are experiencing such MP stuttering. This is not an easy issue to pin down. Any more posts in this thread on the topic of stutters will be deleted. Post in the special thread and be concise, work to help us pin down a possible cause of scenario that causes such stutters. 

 

 

Jason

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On 10/9/2019 at 7:36 PM, Panp said:

Go here for his interview 

https://www.historynet.com/world-war-ii-interview-with-ace-pilot-robert-s-johnson.htm

 

from the interview 

(Also, none of the German fighters were as rugged as a P-47. When I was badly shot up on June 26, 1943, I had 21 20mm cannon shells in that airplane, and more than 200 7.92mm machine-gun bullets. One nicked my nose and another entered my right leg, where the bullet split in half. I still have those two little pieces,

 

I have his book. There is a big disservice about this occurrence that it's Discovery channel's "documentary" taking the P47 ruggedness to mythic levels.  The real evidence are these pictures and tell a different history. Especially the last one.  If someone have more pictures to share. ..

halfpint4.jpg.e12021c5e46b21ae225b35a7339e789c.jpghalfpint3.jpg.ae0cea84222384f1cf6e2a4ed54fde4b.jpghalfpint2.jpg.2bb6f9e953e86f718f216e907868408d.jpghalfpint1.jpg.5d0e9a0adcc524f4fb381a2a2c46a7a4.jpg

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1 minute ago, 6./ZG26_Gielow said:

I have his book. There is a big disservice about this occurrence that it's Discovery channel's "documentary" taking the P47 ruggedness to mythic levels.  The real evidence are these pictures and tell a different history. Especially the last one.  If someone have more pictures to share. ..

halfpint1.jpg.5d0e9a0adcc524f4fb381a2a2c46a7a4.jpg

 

What was your point about this, the last picture?

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14 hours ago, mpdugas said:

 

What was your point about this, the last picture?

Where are the other 19 hits of 20mm and the 200 MG holes?? All in the wings and engine??

 

I am pilot and I know some pilots exaggerate a lot. 

 

The other day I entered this store looking for aviation stuff... :rofl::hunter:

IMG_20191005_155858.thumb.jpg.70cbce5fd92c3e132608569979f26dd5.jpg

Edited by 6./ZG26_Gielow
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@Han

I thought this might be useful as an example. Server was set to expert visibility.

 

Edited by RavN_Sone

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12 hours ago, 6./ZG26_Gielow said:

Where are the other 19 hits of 20mm and the 200 MG holes?? All in the wings and engine??

 

I am pilot and I know some pilots exaggerate a lot. 

 

 I've  read the original book, and I suspect that he was able to count the penetrations and hits fairly well after he landed and examined the plane.  No one who was a historical contemporary of Johnson has asserted otherwise.  Here is where some of the revisionists enter the realm of conspiracy, suggesting that no one would contradict an excellent story to preserve wartime morale.

 

Conjecture is not evidence.  Words are not facts.  Conspiracy theories are just that: theories.  However, historical revisionism is alive and well these days, and, despite the difficulty in disproving his account, it appears that they continue to berate him and the P-47.

 

Without evidence to support their claims, revisionists continue to mount an effort to persuade by attempting to prove a negative, suggesting, without any evidence, that the account is "improbable".  Which is somewhat hard to do and unconvincing.  There are many other anecdotal stories about the strong construction of the P-47; Johnson's does not stand alone as a factual outlier.

 

Without a direct refutation from someone who was in a position, historically, to know otherwise, I won't impugn his "fish story"; slander and libel, particularly of the dead, is an ugly affair, disrespectful and unworthy.  It's why similar stories aren't allowed in a courtroom; the dead cannot defend themselves.

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1 hour ago, mpdugas said:

 I've  read the original book, and I suspect that he was able to count the penetrations and hits fairly well after he landed and examined the plane.  No one who was a historical contemporary of Johnson has asserted otherwise.  Here is where some of the revisionists enter the realm of conspiracy, suggesting that no one would contradict an excellent story to preserve wartime morale.

 

Conjecture is not evidence.  Words are not facts.  Conspiracy theories are just that: theories.  However, historical revisionism is alive and well these days, and, despite the difficulty in disproving his account, it appears that they continue to berate him and the P-47.

 

Without evidence to support their claims, revisionists continue to mount an effort to persuade by attempting to prove a negative, suggesting, without any evidence, that the account is "improbable".  Which is somewhat hard to do and unconvincing.  There are many other anecdotal stories about the strong construction of the P-47; Johnson's does not stand alone as a factual outlier.

 

Without a direct refutation from someone who was in a position, historically, to know otherwise, I won't impugn his "fish story"; slander and libel, particularly of the dead, is an ugly affair, disrespectful and unworthy.  It's why similar stories aren't allowed in a courtroom; the dead cannot defend themselves.

 

Those pictures ARE evidence and very good ones. Those pictures really tell another story. 

 

To say that the dead cannot defend themselves is only emotional appeal and will not work for me.

 

9 in 10 that he exaggerated a lot about that day.

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We don't need anecdotal evidence of how "strong" the P-47 was there is really only the science of materials and construction methods all of which are available. 

 

We also have many anecdotes of R2800's legendary strength and damage resistance but few people can answer me what the difference is between an R2600 or even an R1830,¬† ASh M82 or BMW 801, was it the 18 cylinder config vs 14 or 9 or the larger capacity better? some other 18 cylinder radials don't have the same reputation or is it just that there are more R2800 anecdotes¬†ūüėé

 

Perhaps we should look at why the P-47/Double Wasp should have their reputation with facts rather than anecdotes 

 

Cheers, Dakpilot 

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9 hours ago, 6./ZG26_Gielow said:

 

Those pictures ARE evidence and very good ones. Those pictures really tell another story. 

 

To say that the dead cannot defend themselves is only emotional appeal and will not work for me.

 

9 in 10 that he exaggerated a lot about that day.

 

As I said earlier, your just guessing without evidence (no contemporaneous contradictions is also evidence) is just pure conjecture: should'a, would'a, could'a theorizing.  The pictures aren't the only evidence, but you don't credit that.  That the dead can't be contradicted on hearsay is not just emotional appeal, it's also law.  Pictures + first-hand testimony support the incident.

4 hours ago, Dakpilot said:

We don't need anecdotal evidence of how "strong" the P-47 was there is really only the science of materials and construction methods all of which are available. 

 

We also have many anecdotes of R2800's legendary strength and damage resistance but few people can answer me what the difference is between an R2600 or even an R1830,¬† ASh M82 or BMW 801, was it the 18 cylinder config vs 14 or 9 or the larger capacity better? some other 18 cylinder radials don't have the same reputation or is it just that there are more R2800 anecdotes¬†ūüėé

 

Perhaps we should look at why the P-47/Double Wasp should have their reputation with facts rather than anecdotes 

 

Cheers, Dakpilot 

 

The anecdotal evidence, which means other, supporting stories of a similar nature, are also about the substantial construction of the plane itself and the engine.

 

However, I've also heard anecdotal stories that the Russians liked their radials, as did the Germans, for similar robust and protective reasons.  I guess we should dismiss those stories, too?

 

Saluté!

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This is a great work and thanks for it

just one question:

French pilots and planes  are one of the most important part of the the WWI aerial battles, for WWII French squadron Normandie fought from Russia between 1942 to Berlin in 1945 on Russia airplanes, and the French Air Force reorganized at the end of 1942 participated to all the aerial battles with US and UK planes until 1945. now we have some free french plane’s skins (yak, u2, spitfire, spad XIII), the maps Arras, Rhineland... could we expect to have soon France as new faction ?

 

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