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FS-Sturmgeist

Soviet damage model

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One thing that i have noticed is that some Soviet guns have a higher rate of fire, making deflection Pilot Kill shots more probable.  Often when I fly in a 109 for example and a Soviet flying through my sights with him managing or better yet being lucky passing between shots gets nerve racking... and then just to get splashed eventually since Yaks fly like kites 😂.

 

I know that there many things for me to work on, spotting and aiming. And of course knowing which fight to get into and not. 

 

I'm still quite curious to know what the statistics are in regards to Pilot Kills between blue and red. That's only because most of the times that I do killed is for exactly that reason. I've heard time and time again that poor ol'190 pilot who gets head shot all the time. Doesn't matter what I fly though, I'm always getting a headache through getting my head shot off 🤣

 

I guess the morning coffee is good, that's why I can laugh about this right now. Otherwise I'm often quite pissed 😉

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4 hours ago, InProgress said:

In that case he was shot by aircobra. It was first and last time when he was shot down by fighter. It was always AAA that shot him down.

 

Thanks: I had forgotten that passage. In page 148 in my English edition:  "My aircraft has been riddled by the 2cm guns and hit eight times by the 3.7cm cannon".  I assume this the passage to which you are referring?  He did get back to base though.

 

To the best of my knowledge Airacobras never carried 2cm guns (or cannons), so I assume he was talking about hits from the 50 or 30 calibre MGs. Our game gives AP as an optional loadout  for the P-39's 3.7cm  while noting that very few of these shells were shipped under lend-lease, (Wiki says that none were shipped), so I suppose it is possible that Rudel's account referred to some mix or only AP 3.7cm hits but I very much doubt it.  I suspect that he just got very lucky that nothing damaged an immediately critical component or caused structural collapse.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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25 minutes ago, unreasonable said:

To the best of my knowledge Airacobras never carried 2cm guns (or cannons), so I assume he was talking about hits from the 50 or 30 calibre MGs.

Could be, maybe also some AAA hit him. But still, 12mm and 37mm is still a great luck to survive. I am really amazed by this guy luck. Especially part when he was captured and just randomly started running away, was shot at and chased by tons of russians with dogs. And he survived all this. While you are never 100% sure, if they counted these 8 holes as 3,7cm, then they must have been pretty big. I mean it still happens in game, you can get lots of hits and survive.

 

It's only my feeling but i think engines are really fragile and wings fall off way too often. Especially in bigger planes. Also it's a bit weird when you spray full auto with 20mm HE from engine, through cockpit to the tail and pilot is not dead. Happens often... Idk, did not do any detailed tests but killing pilot with HE bullets seems really hard.

Edited by InProgress

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5 hours ago, unreasonable said:

To the best of my knowledge Airacobras never carried 2cm guns (or cannons), so I assume he was talking about hits from the 50 or 30 calibre MGs.


The earlier P-400s and P-39D-2s had 20mm Hispano cannons instead of the 37mm, though I don't know in which timeframe was his encounter.

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5 hours ago, -=PHX=-SuperEtendard said:


The earlier P-400s and P-39D-2s had 20mm Hispano cannons instead of the 37mm, though I don't know in which timeframe was his encounter.

 

Fair point: but the events described were at the end of March 1944: ie about two years after the RAF rejected the 20mm version and sent them off to the Soviets.  The text explicitly differentiates between 2cm gun hits and 3.7cm cannon hits, at least in the English version. So a combination of MG hits and 3.7cm cannon HE hits is much the most likely.  

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On 9/9/2019 at 1:35 AM, unreasonable said:

 The text explicitly differentiates between 2cm gun hits and 3.7cm cannon hits, at least in the English version. So a combination of MG hits and 3.7cm cannon HE hits is much the most likely.  

Not necessarily, the german side classified guns up to 2cm or below 3cm (as far as I know, german side didn't have anything in between), as guns, not as cannons. Therefore it is MG151/20 and MG/FF, not MK, but 3cm MK101 and 103.

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I'll shamelessly plug myself into the discussion:

 

 

 

As per the original post, I think it's time to dismiss the "German planes weak, russian planes stronk" & "Russian bias" or any similar cliches.

There's no bias, there's just wacko damage model, that's it. You can tear wings off with just a few machine gun hits, but at the same time, the same wing will remain firmly attached even after receiving many cannon hits to the wingroot. You can lose a pilot to a machinegun round penetrating the entire tail section and armour plating, but the same pilot will survive a HE cannon hit straight to the cockpit and will not even suffer wounds. Similarly, gunners which on paper should be really easy to kill, will somehow manage to withstand salvos upon salvos of shots and will maintain their accuracy. 

At the same time, according to my rather vast online experience, if you can actually consistently land good shots, you will shoot down aircraft, in either one or two passes. 99% of the time a good, centre mass burst will kill an enemy no matter what, regarding of what planes are involved.

 

Now, if you want damage model to be improved, don't make posts that start with "soviet too stronk" or "this gun is so weak but i saw on history channel it stronk", because no-one will treat that seriously. I think that DM can be improved a lot, and I still can't take these posts seriously. 

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Here is something interesting, still flying.

45157461_810(1).jpg.7604346937d89a23f1ac

 

Edited by InProgress

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8 hours ago, InProgress said:

Here is something interesting, still flying.

 

Except that's not IL2 BoS.

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11 hours ago, 4./JG26_Onebad said:

I'll shamelessly plug myself into the discussion:

 

 

 

As per the original post, I think it's time to dismiss the "German planes weak, russian planes stronk" & "Russian bias" or any similar cliches.

There's no bias, there's just wacko damage model, that's it. You can tear wings off with just a few machine gun hits, but at the same time, the same wing will remain firmly attached even after receiving many cannon hits to the wingroot. You can lose a pilot to a machinegun round penetrating the entire tail section and armour plating, but the same pilot will survive a HE cannon hit straight to the cockpit and will not even suffer wounds. Similarly, gunners which on paper should be really easy to kill, will somehow manage to withstand salvos upon salvos of shots and will maintain their accuracy. 

At the same time, according to my rather vast online experience, if you can actually consistently land good shots, you will shoot down aircraft, in either one or two passes. 99% of the time a good, centre mass burst will kill an enemy no matter what, regarding of what planes are involved.

 

Now, if you want damage model to be improved, don't make posts that start with "soviet too stronk" or "this gun is so weak but i saw on history channel it stronk", because no-one will treat that seriously. I think that DM can be improved a lot, and I still can't take these posts seriously. 

Pretty much the only post worth reading in here.

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A). It only takes 1 bullet or shrapnel bit to kill.  Yes, even in this sim.  

There may be design elements that make it more accessible but, it is a simulator first, game second. 

 

B). Sometimes, things that absolutely should be a killer leave the pilot/target unscathed - even on hits that certainly look "guaranteed".    Ask any infantry man who's been in combat with close quarters weapons and explosives.  I'm sure many have "How did I or, how did that other guy, live?" stories. 

 

C). Balancing this with the fact that there are moments when it's 100% certain to be a kill has got to be a monumental task.    

 

 

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On 9/10/2019 at 6:00 AM, 4./JG26_Onebad said:

. You can tear wings off with just a few machine gun hits


That video is from the old damage model though. And back then I replicated the test in the WoL server that counts how many impacts do you connect on the enemy, and in the end it took slightly over 100 7.92mm hits to take off a wing from a LaGG.

I think now it would take a good bit more hits.

Edited by -=PHX=-SuperEtendard

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You know what's hilarious? On the Russian speaking forum there's a huge thread about the 109 damage model and how it's completely overpowered and unfair. LMAO Can't make this stuff up.

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4 minutes ago, Bilbo_Baggins said:

 

I understand your point, but bear in mind that the vast majority of Slavs play this with their hearts on their sleeves, fighting their ‘Great Patriotic War’, which is understandable. However, you will only get a red viewpoint like that.

 

Regards

Says the guy who only flew German for months no matter how stacked the sides were.

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22 hours ago, JonRedcorn said:

You know what's hilarious? On the Russian speaking forum there's a huge thread about the 109 damage model and how it's completely overpowered and unfair. LMAO Can't make this stuff up.

 

Sometimes Red guns just aren't enough and that's historical.  Get your hits and leave them to crawl off and die.  

 

I wish I had video to back it up but, I have seen 109s with both aileron and elevator shot off on the same (left or right) side and keep fighting with zero reduction of performance (turning/vertical/speed) for another 10 - 15 minutes.  This was in single player.  

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