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Bodenplatte map area

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5 hours ago, Bremspropeller said:

 

@Jaegermeister is there any chance you'll extend the P-38 campaign into the P-51D age with the 370th?

 

I thought about that and it might be a nice idea to finish up flying the P-51 for a few missions near the end of the war in Europe, but that’s a very long time frame. I guess some USAAF pilots made it from September ‘44 through April ‘45. They were limited to 50 combat missions, so it’s more likely I will start with the earlier action around Aachen and ending around January.

 

There is plenty of action left for a 2nd campaign later on. The 370th moved to Y-32 and started operations in February before they converted to P-51s in March. They weren’t happy about losing the P-38s at all.. here’s a quote.

 

“Rod Colton from his 1st mission on the P-51...

 

The only thing that really bothered me about the P-51 is that on our dive bombing, in a P-38 you’d come in, drop your bombs or strafe, and when you pulled that thing up it would zoom up to 10,000 feet in just nothing flat. When I was coming in on a P-51, the first day I ever strafed an installation when they were shooting at us, I pulled up and at about 3,000 feet here is this P-51 going 250 miles per hour. I could see the tracers coming up from the ground and I’d have to kick a right rudder and skid it and weave my way back up into the sky. You never had to do that in a P-38 because you got out of the fire zone so damn fast. It just really reached for the sky.”

 

From The 370th Fighter Group in World War II by Jay Jones.

 

There are plenty more anecdotes regarding how much they were not impressed with the Mustang for ground attack. They were told they would be doing high level escort from then on but it didn’t happen. They flew some bomber escorts and strafing missions in March with the Mustangs and still had a mixed bag of Lightnings and Mustangs until after the ground troops crossed the Rhine. I think it was somewhat anticlimactic after that but I haven’t researched it very carefully yet.

 

I’ll think I’ll start earlier on and see if I ever get to 50 missions. 😳

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For anyone interested in doing a Tempest campaign, I have the rare book 'The Wild WInds' by Paul Sortehaug. It's a detailed history of 486sqn however a lot of the history could also apply to the other Tempest squadrons.

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17 hours ago, Jaegermeister said:

“Rod Colton from his 1st mission on the P-51...

 

The only thing that really bothered me about the P-51 is that on our dive bombing, in a P-38 you’d come in, drop your bombs or strafe, and when you pulled that thing up it would zoom up to 10,000 feet in just nothing flat. When I was coming in on a P-51, the first day I ever strafed an installation when they were shooting at us, I pulled up and at about 3,000 feet here is this P-51 going 250 miles per hour. I could see the tracers coming up from the ground and I’d have to kick a right rudder and skid it and weave my way back up into the sky. You never had to do that in a P-38 because you got out of the fire zone so damn fast. It just really reached for the sky.”

 

From The 370th Fighter Group in World War II by Jay Jones.

 

I had read that anecdote, too, but I can tell you that pulling a Mustang off the deck (at roughly 350mph-400mph) will yield much more than just 3000ft.

 

I've experienced it: We were pretty much going straight up from the deck (roughly a 6g pullout) and we hammerheaded at easily 6000-7000ft. That thing goes straight up forever - it's unreal!

We never went beyond 48 inches during the entire flight, btw.

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On 9/2/2019 at 1:08 AM, jollyjack said:

 

I guess our well respected IL developer team knows what they're doing. Regarding map development it must be quite a job to recreate new 'Days of (g)Old' maps. Otherwise it might be simple as there are so many available. Modern Navigator stuff like TomTom goes back only a few months.

 

 

I like the a20, but here's it's sibling, the a25 taking off in this video: https://youtu.be/YIIBo-eiuR4?t=509

 

I always thought the A-26 looked like the A-20 had gone on a diet xD

 

Such a beautiful aircraft tho (the clip of the P-51 flyby right after was pretty damn awesome as well lol)

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7 hours ago, Bremspropeller said:

 

I had read that anecdote, too, but I can tell you that pulling a Mustang off the deck (at roughly 350mph-400mph) will yield much more than just 3000ft.

 

I've experienced it: We were pretty much going straight up from the deck (roughly a 6g pullout) and we hammerheaded at easily 6000-7000ft. That thing goes straight up forever - it's unreal!

We never went beyond 48 inches during the entire flight, btw.

 

Well, we should be able to find out soon enough! it might not be a real Mustang like you were lucky enough to experience but I'm sure the physics will be close enough to demonstrate a reasonably accurate zoom climb. (2 weeks, be sure) Mostly I was trying to convey the pilots' lack of excitement for converting from the Lightning, not so much imply the Mustang was that bad. I'm sure that after 30 or 40 missions you would get attached to the machine you went through those missions in.    

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7 hours ago, Bremspropeller said:

 

I had read that anecdote, too, but I can tell you that pulling a Mustang off the deck (at roughly 350mph-400mph) will yield much more than just 3000ft.

 

I've experienced it: We were pretty much going straight up from the deck (roughly a 6g pullout) and we hammerheaded at easily 6000-7000ft. That thing goes straight up forever - it's unreal!

We never went beyond 48 inches during the entire flight, btw.

 

Interesting...I want to know more. 

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To paraphrase one of the scientists in Half-Life:

 

"It's probably not a problem, probably... but I'm seeing a small discrepancy in the Bodenplatte map." 

Wiesbaden and Idstein are swapped. I know it's a small thing but it'd be good to have it corrected before the release - assuming of course this is the same map they're using. 

 

20190904_150942.jpg.2d2751e60625d44cea177f2d096652fe.jpg

 

Edit: Wiesbaden should probably also be capitalised seeing as it's a big city, bigger than Mainz. 

(I should know, I live in between them after all.) 

Edited by Soilworker
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16 hours ago, Gambit21 said:

Interesting...I want to know more. 

 

I wish it lasted longer than just 15mins, but those 15mins were quite action-packed. We almost didn't fly straight at all - and during the straight portions, we were pushing the 250kts airspace speed-limits quite easily.

 

Sadly no stick-time. The airplane could be eqipped (it wasn't when I sat in it) with a stick in the rear seat, but it's just a pseudo "autopilot" set-up for longer cruise-flight, when the owner is ferrying the bird to airshows. No power-controls or rudder-pedals in the rear seat either.

 

The take-off was awesome - mind you it's not a *war*bird (no armor, new radios, no guns and ammo), but we also flew with the 100LL Avgas MAP-restriction (which is about 48-50 inches). A *real* P-51 would easily pull 70 inches and might be going 82 on 150octane gas.

The post-war P-51H was eventually pushing 90inches - talk about a wild ride!

The flight portion was getting to altitude and basicly getting a short trip to two close castles (one of them the famous Hohenzollern castle), doing a lag-displacement-roll and a wing-over at each corner of the tour. After getting back to the airfield, we'd dive towards the tower, do a simulated attack (quite steep) onto the tower, pull-up into a wingover and then after a high-speed pass land.

 

I didn't experience too much of the pull-up, because I was busy getting my head out of my lap, as my headset was constantly bumping against the canopy (standard canopy) and I was leaning forward a bit. Don't do that, when puling Gs...

 

I'm currently wondering if I should take my money and run - to Stallion 51 - and get checked out (which is kinda stupid if you're not Tom Cruise and own your own P-51).

 

 

16 hours ago, Jaegermeister said:

I'm sure that after 30 or 40 missions you would get attached to the machine you went through those missions in. 

 

That certainly explains it for the most part.

Pilots were used to flying the P-38 and knew it's ways inside out. The same ideas and tactics won't necessarily work out in a different airplane.

 

It's funny how nobody in the 9th wanted the Mustang - except the 354th, who couldn't get rid of their Thunderbolts quickly enough and going back to their beloved P-51s...

 

 

 

Edited by Bremspropeller
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40 minutes ago, Bremspropeller said:

I'm currently wondering if I should take my money and run - to Stallion 51 - and get checked out (which is kinda stupid if you're not Tom Cruise and own your own P-51).

1. You absolutely should

2. It's never stupid.

 

I certainly plan on doing it. The only problem is that it is rather straightforward asking one's better half what she thought of an easy day in London but much less so asking her spending a day at some malls in Orlando. Especially coming from Europe...

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5 hours ago, Soilworker said:

To paraphrase one of the scientists in Half-Life:

 

"It's probably not a problem, probably... but I'm seeing a small discrepancy in the Bodenplatte map." 

Wiesbaden and Idstein are swapped. I know it's a small thing but it'd be good to have it corrected before the release - assuming of course this is the same map they're using. 

 

20190904_150942.jpg.2d2751e60625d44cea177f2d096652fe.jpg

 

Edit: Wiesbaden should probably also be capitalised seeing as it's a big city, bigger than Mainz. 

(I should know, I live in between them after all.) 

Was Wiesbaden a bigger city than Mainz back in 44-45 though, or did it just get bigger post-war? Always interesting to look at historical maps and see what areas stayed the same and what changed.

The city I grew up in basically doubled in size over my lifetime while the area I live in now has had almost exactly the same population for 40 years.
 

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12 minutes ago, RedKestrel said:

Was Wiesbaden a bigger city than Mainz back in 44-45 though, or did it just get bigger post-war? Always interesting to look at historical maps and see what areas stayed the same and what changed.

The city I grew up in basically doubled in size over my lifetime while the area I live in now has had almost exactly the same population for 40 years.
 

 

Roughly the same for both towns:

 

Wiesbaden

31. Dezember 1940     171.700

 

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/14/Einwohnerentwicklung_von_Wiesbaden_-_ab_1871.svg/1920px-Einwohnerentwicklung_von_Wiesbaden_-_ab_1871.svg.png

 

Mainz

31. Dezember 1940     158.000

 

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/b/bd/Einwohnerentwicklung_von_Mainz.svg/1920px-Einwohnerentwicklung_von_Mainz.svg.png

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Not sure if it’s already been asked, but are we to get the Ludendorff bridge?

 

It’s location is well within the map boundaries, but mainly because I’ve been waiting to relive the moment captured in the Aces Over Europe’s box cover art for such a very long time......

 

4DF03D0C-6FE5-44BC-BBD8-409E49A8C9AD.thumb.png.b5b3628de6830075d0d52067f830e43a.png

 

Oh the Ar234 (as a collectors plane) would be nice as well, until then the Me262 will just have to face up to the Tempests all on their own!

 

Flying Axis and trying to knock out the bridge as did happen historically, would be cool, as would be defending it, if I recall correctly at least one Ar234 was downed attempting to do so.

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Oops should have really had a better look around the forum before posting as I now know the subject of the Bridge (and the Blitz) was already raised and discussed here previously: 

 

Edited by spudkopf

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7 hours ago, spudkopf said:

Not sure if it’s already been asked, but are we to get the Ludendorff bridge?

 

It’s location is well within the map boundaries...

 

Bridges are scenery objects. The images of the map that have been posted probably don’t include scenery objects yet. If it was hard coded into the map, you would not be able to damage or destroy it. 

 

I am speculating, but I would guess they will include a bridge object with a damage model in the final release to place where it should be.

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At present neither the bridge nor Remagen are on the map.

 

 

Unbenannt.jpg

 

The same is true for the point of Rhine crossing of the british troops at Rees. Neither Rees nor Xanten are on the map.

 

 

Unbenannt.jpg.a725897cc2dec623a5010aadbb768bc7.jpg

Edited by sevenless

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8 hours ago, sevenless said:

At present neither the bridge nor Remagen are on the map....

The same is true for the point of Rhine crossing of the british troops at Rees. Neither Rees nor Xanten are on the map.

 

How long ago was that map posted? Maybe they have updated it. It looks like there is a train line running up to the river from both sides very near your Remagen Point.

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53 minutes ago, BlackSix said:

The Ludendorff Bridge will be there.

 

Nice to know, thanks for the clarification. 

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1 hour ago, Jaegermeister said:

How long ago was that map posted? Maybe they have updated it. It looks like there is a train line running up to the river from both sides very near your Remagen Point.

 

The map is from Jasons post of 20th April below. Anyways Blacksix answered it. They are aware of the issue.

 

 

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14 hours ago, Jaegermeister said:

 

Bridges are scenery objects. The images of the map that have been posted probably don’t include scenery objects yet. If it was hard coded into the map, you would not be able to damage or destroy it. 

 

I am speculating, but I would guess they will include a bridge object with a damage model in the final release to place where it should be.

All the bridge can be destroyed. If you don't turn them into Entity, you will have no point, but you can destroy them.

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On ‎9‎/‎3‎/‎2019 at 4:10 AM, HBPencil said:

I have the rare book 'The Wild WInds' by Paul Sortehaug

 

😲

 

I had a look but they are about £250 a copy or I would have bought ti stright up. I loved Sheddan´s work - like CLostermann but with less melodrama.

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On 9/4/2019 at 1:15 PM, Soilworker said:

To paraphrase one of the scientists in Half-Life:

 

"It's probably not a problem, probably... but I'm seeing a small discrepancy in the Bodenplatte map." 

Wiesbaden and Idstein are swapped. I know it's a small thing but it'd be good to have it corrected before the release - assuming of course this is the same map they're using. 

 

20190904_150942.jpg.2d2751e60625d44cea177f2d096652fe.jpg

 

Edit: Wiesbaden should probably also be capitalised seeing as it's a big city, bigger than Mainz. 

(I should know, I live in between them after all.) 

 

I can confirm that Wiesbaden and Idstein are swapped…...I live in the area too.

 

AND City of "HOCHST" next to the Main River close to Frankfurt am Main is HÖCHST with an ÖÖÖÖÖ.

I am born in Höchst, which was during the second WW an own Independent town, which belongs nowadays to Frankfurt.  

 

By the way…...THIS map is really huge and I love it......I am sure that it will be a master piece. Thanks to the Devs already for your great work and bringing this nice Bodenplatte map to us soon.

Edited by spitfirejoe
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I'm really looking forward to flying along the rhine river starting at Mainz, buzzing Weisbaden (will the palace be there?).  I did a small bicycle trek near The Rock, it's pretty and it'll be fun to dip below the hills and follow the water the whole way..

I'm hoping they added castles too, or at least a few, as they're all over the place in that area.  The entrances of railway tunnels should be appropriately disguised as well.  Cathedrals as well.

I visited Metz and Verdun on the same trip as well but it looks like they're sightly south of the map, oh well.  The Battle of Metz would have fit into the time period for Bodenplatte too, would have been fun fly assaults against the fortress there.  Sort of wonder why the map stops where it does at the southern border (Paris or some other large city they didn't want to bother with?)

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“P.S. please don't post about the map in general. Let's focus on the airfields. The map itself is very much a Work in Progress.

 

Thanks,

Jason”

 

Since this is a quote from the original map post in April, maybe we should wait until we get a real look at it to make corrections.....

 

 

Edited by Jaegermeister

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On 9/5/2019 at 11:11 AM, Jaegermeister said:

How long ago was that map posted? Maybe they have updated it. It looks like there is a train line running up to the river from both sides very near your Remagen Point.

Ages ago. 6 months ago perhaps?

 

It gives us great insight into the map area and I wouldn't sweat the details.

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14 hours ago, spitfirejoe said:

AND City of "HOCHST" next to the Main River close to Frankfurt am Main is HÖCHST with an ÖÖÖÖÖ.

Yes it looks like they are not familiar with the international writing of 'ä', 'ö', and 'ü', which is 'ae', 'oe', and 'ue'. My hometown for example is Wuerzburg, not Wurzburg, like in the curriculum vitae of the former Lufthansa pilot in the career, and my first name is Juergen not Jurgen. 

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6 hours ago, Yogiflight said:

Yes it looks like they are not familiar with the international writing of 'ä', 'ö', and 'ü', which is 'ae', 'oe', and 'ue'. My hometown for example is Wuerzburg, not Wurzburg, like in the curriculum vitae of the former Lufthansa pilot in the career, and my first name is Juergen not Jurgen. 

 

NOT correct what you wrote..…"They" know About Ü Ö and so on.....the map shows KÖLN and Düsseldorf correctly with Ö and Ü.

That´s why I suggested to make HÖCHST  out of HOCHST.

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On 9/4/2019 at 11:30 PM, ZachariasX said:

1. You absolutely should

2. It's never stupid.

 

I certainly plan on doing it. The only problem is that it is rather straightforward asking one's better half what she thought of an easy day in London but much less so asking her spending a day at some malls in Orlando. Especially coming from Europe...

 

This would probably do the trick:

 

https://www.ritzcarlton.com/en/hotels/florida/orlando/spa?scid=bb1a189a-fec3-4d19-a255-54ba596febe2

Edited by unreasonable
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7 hours ago, Yogiflight said:

Yes it looks like they are not familiar with the international writing of 'ä', 'ö', and 'ü', which is 'ae', 'oe', and 'ue'. My hometown for example is Wuerzburg, not Wurzburg, like in the curriculum vitae of the former Lufthansa pilot in the career, and my first name is Juergen not Jurgen. 

 

18 minutes ago, spitfirejoe said:

 

NOT correct what you wrote..…"They" know About Ü Ö and so on.....the map shows KÖLN and Düsseldorf correctly with Ö and Ü.

That´s why I suggested to make HÖCHST  out of HOCHST.

 

Besides the right spelling of cities, what to think of Belgium? Will they get Dutch or French names or both?

Antwerpen - Anvers, Brussel - Bruxelles, Gent - Ghent, Brugge - Bruges, Kortrijk - Courtrai, Doornik - Tournai, Luik - Liège.

And so forth.

 

Or perhaps cities in Flanders will be written in Dutch and Wallonia in French language.

That would make sense I think.

 

 

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IMHO city names should be written in two languages. In English and in the language of localization of the game. And ideally in German + in the localization language, if you play as the Luftwaffe.

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A couple remarks on the map:

- The cities of Deventer and Apeldoorn are swapped (see attached pic)

- The city of "s-Hertogenbosch" should be written as 's-Hertogenbosch; so that's with an apostrophe before the s (due to 's being a contraction of des)

- Scheveningen is all-caps, while Den Haag is not. This should be the other way around, as Scheveningen is a neighbourhood of Den Haag (and with Den Haag being the seat of government and de facto capital)

deventer-apeldoorn.png

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1 minute ago, AEthelraedUnraed said:

A couple remarks on the map:

- The cities of Deventer and Apeldoorn are swapped (see attached pic)

- The city of "s-Hertogenbosch" should be written as 's-Hertogenbosch; so that's with an apostrophe before the s (due to 's being a contraction of des)

- Scheveningen is all-caps, while Den Haag is not. This should be the other way around, as Scheveningen is a neighbourhood of Den Haag (and with Den Haag being the seat of government and de facto capital)

deventer-apeldoorn.png

Was Scheveningen a neighbourhood of Den Haag in 1944-1945?

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22 minutes ago, Sharpe43 said:

Was Scheveningen a neighbourhood of Den Haag in 1944-1945?

Good point - it seems to have originally been a separate fishing village, although having belonged to Den Haag since at least the late middle ages. Not sure if it still was a separate village during the war, but it was certainly part of the Den Haag municipality.

 

Anyhow, Den Haag is definitely the name that should be spelled in all-caps, not Scheveningen :)

Edited by AEthelraedUnraed

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50 minutes ago, AEthelraedUnraed said:

A couple remarks on the map:

- The cities of Deventer and Apeldoorn are swapped (see attached pic)

- The city of "s-Hertogenbosch" should be written as 's-Hertogenbosch; so that's with an apostrophe before the s (due to 's being a contraction of des)

- Scheveningen is all-caps, while Den Haag is not. This should be the other way around, as Scheveningen is a neighbourhood of Den Haag (and with Den Haag being the seat of government and de facto capital)

 

 

A minor thingy to be consistent for this matter:

 if it is 's Hertogenbosch then Den Haag should be  's-Gravenhage.

Or Den Bosch and Den Haag, or 's-Hertogenbosch and 's-Gravenhage.

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3 minutes ago, Uufflakke said:

 

A minor thingy to be consistent for this matter:

 if it is 's Hertogenbosch then Den Haag should be  's-Gravenhage.

Or Den Bosch and Den Haag, or 's-Hertogenbosch and 's-Gravenhage.

I don't agree - I think the full name 's-Hertogenbosch is more common than 's-Gravenhage (even the Dutch wikipedia page has Den Haag but 's-Hertogenbosch as their respective page titles. Maps - including Google Maps - also often make this difference).

 

Den Bosch just sounds a bit too unofficial to me to use in a map. On the other hand, Den Haag nicely corresponds to its English name The Hague, which 's-Gravenhage just doesn't. So IMHO, the Devs are right to do it this way (besides the small spelling error of course).

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3 minutes ago, AEthelraedUnraed said:

I don't agree - I think the full name 's-Hertogenbosch is more common than 's-Gravenhage (even the Dutch wikipedia page has Den Haag but 's-Hertogenbosch as their respective page titles. Maps - including Google Maps - also often make this difference).

 

Den Bosch just sounds a bit too unofficial to me to use in a map. On the other hand, Den Haag nicely corresponds to its English name The Hague, which 's-Gravenhage just doesn't. So IMHO, the Devs are right to do it this way (besides the small spelling error of course).

 

It is not what we like, want or think it is was, but what it really was during that period on the respective maps.

On this website https://www.topotijdreis.nl/  you will see on the scanned maps of 1944 it is 's-Hertogenbosch and 's-Gravenhage.

 

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4 minutes ago, Uufflakke said:

 

It is not what we like, want or think it is was, but what it really was during that period on the respective maps.

On this website https://www.topotijdreis.nl/  you will see on the scanned maps of 1944 it is 's-Hertogenbosch and 's-Gravenhage.

 

On maps it may have been, but the name Den Haag has long been in common use. I agree that on period maps 's-Gravenhage looks a bit more appropriate; however as I said Den Haag is much easier to relate to the English name The Hague. Given that the vast majority of players of IL2 aren't from the Netherlands, that should score some points too.

 

Regardless, I think that both 's-Gravenhage and Den Haag are perfectly acceptable. I just don't agree with your statement that consistency should be used between Den Bosch and Den Haag.

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As BOBP is about American and Commonwealth troops supported by some other troops versus German troops, it should be for each side the way it was written in english/german, not like netherland people would write it.

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2 hours ago, Yogiflight said:

As BOBP is about American and Commonwealth troops supported by some other troops versus German troops, it should be for each side the way it was written in english/german, not like netherland people would write it.

...who both generally use native Dutch names, disregarding a few exceptions (The Hague, Arnheim, ...). To make matters worse, this American map from 1944 has 's-Gravenhage, while this German map from the same year uses Haag (without Den though) (both use 's-Hertogenbosch). Which leads us right back to the original problem.

 

Anyway, I think the BOBP map as shown is fine, as long as the small spelling error in 's-Hertogenbosch is corrected.

Edited by AEthelraedUnraed

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