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mazex

Upgrading from Vive to Index...?

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Posted (edited)

My finger has been hovering over the Index buy button many times now...

 

So - I have an original Vive and I am really happy with all the joy it has brought me in IL2, DCS and many hours of Skyrim with "natural locomotion"....

 

But, the resolution and screen door effect is really starting to annoy me when you hear good things about the Index (and to some extent the Reverb). So is there any fellow VR nerd out there that have gone from the Vive OG to the Index? Did you get a "wow - that was really worth the upgrade feeling"?

 

Is the Index working well with IL2? Jason wanted test pilots for canted VR sets and as I understand it Index is canted? Any problem in IL2 with that now?

 

And for me improved spotting and instrument readability is really what drives my finger over the buy button....

Edited by mazex

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I started on a Vive Pro and went to the Index. Love it. 
 

Tried the Pimax too. Great FOV but my eyes were strained after using it, despite lots of fiddling with IPD (it got better but never went away). 
 

If you want to save some money, the Gear VR lens mod is great. I would have kept that but my eyebrows line was cut into by the 3D printed adapter. Note that I have to move the Index lenses out a bit too (no glasses, just bone structure) but it’s way more adjustable on the Index so my FOV is close to max vs 90-100 deg on the Vive with GearVR lenses. 
 

I tried the Reverb at work in P3D as well. It’s a great unit and surprisingly comfortable for me, but definitely a slightly smaller FOV (noticeable). It would be a great option if I didn’t prefer the index and if I didn’t already have base stations. 
 

Hard to go wrong with either Reverb or Index for the next 12-18 months IMO. Anything better probably requires an appreciable leap in hardware. 
 

Oh, almost forgot: Index audio is pretty amazing. 

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Thank you, just needed that little push in the right direction. Ordered ;)

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I went Oculus Rift > Odyssey > Vive Pro (lens mod) > Pimax 5k > Vive Pro (Lens Mod) > Index   =  No regrets.

 

Bear in mind that cost wasn't a major factor in any of this.  

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3 hours ago, mazex said:

Is the Index working well with IL2? Jason wanted test pilots for canted VR sets and as I understand it Index is canted? Any problem in IL2 with that now?

 

SteamVR by default runs in parallel projection mode for the Index so no issue with IL2. The screens are only canted by five degrees so there is little to be gained by turning off parallal projections.

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When I got my Index I had a wow in terms of sweet spot and clarity over my previous headsets.

My route was:

 

Rift --> Vivepro --> Rift --> Pimax5k+ --> Index.  Now arrived the Reverb and I need to decide which one should I keep.

 

Coming from the Vive the Index is a good choice since you already have the basestations. So the price is 449$ only for the headset.

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3 hours ago, chiliwili69 said:

When I got my Index I had a wow in terms of sweet spot and clarity over my previous headsets.

My route was:

 

Rift --> Vivepro --> Rift --> Pimax5k+ --> Index.  Now arrived the Reverb and I need to decide which one should I keep.

 

Coming from the Vive the Index is a good choice since you already have the basestations. So the price is 449$ only for the headset.

 

Thanks, and as you say the price gets more reasonable keeping the base stations and hand controllers - even though the Knuckles controllers look nice the main usage is for simulators.

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Got my Index now - and holy cow! Thanks a lot guys!

 

Some first impressions:

 

I really should have done this earlier. It feels like everything is better - accept the glare that is worse than the Vive, but that is only in some menus / boot screens etc.

 

Everything is so much sharper, and even the colors are better subjectively. As the screen door effect is almost completely gone and the pixels fill all the way - the dark blue really is dark blue and not checkers and small visible RGB pixels... And you can actually read the dials. The wow effect is even more pronounced in DCS with all the small screens etc that are possible to read. And the fear I had about washed out blacks is a lot less than expected. It really looks rather nicely black. Not having blasting OLED actually feels like a relief and less of a strain - much more balanced color as the over saturated look is gone.

 

And the comfort is awesome (even with glasses and a big head). Note that I had the Deluxe Headband for my Vive that I thought was great. These just feel soo balanced...

 

One of the more surprising effects that many tone down in their reviews is the larger FOV. Especially in the vertical direction. A LOT more sky visible while seeing the whole instrument panel at the same time.

 

This really makes any thoughts about playing pancake go away. It looks much more like looking at a real screen than in the Vive with the pixels large as peas ;)

Edited by mazex
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Hah, no way, Mazex-- I got mine tonight as well (imported to Canada, took me two weeks).

 

1. I agree, I waited too long as well.

2. Yep -- glare is worse,  -- it took me a bit of time to really dial in my IPD and the headstrap (even though it's similar to the deluxe audio strap). After I realized it was just glare and got used to it, it was fine.

3. Agreed on comfort, on long missions / bombing runs (running the game in window on the desktop) I flip up the headset and browse/chat with folks on steam etc -- MUCH better for this!

4. Honestly the FOV doesn't seem huge for me, but I had a VR cover face gasket so I really had those lenses pushed up against my eyes. You're right, the vertical FOV is improved though.

5. Agreed on pancake. It's like going from 720p to 1080p.

 

Performance wise:

I run a 6700k/1080 -- I actually run it at SS100 (so 2016x2240ish) but I decided to go down to 80hz -- once I upgrade (next year maybe) I'll be able to play around 120hz with similar settings. I'm one of the lucky ones with a stomach for it so I can deal with the framerate being a little lower. 

 

All in all? I love it. Very pleased. Between IL2, Elite, NMS and H3VR I'm all set.

Edited by R3animate
Virtual->vertical
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On 9/4/2019 at 6:47 PM, R3animate said:

I run a 6700k/1080 -- I actually run it at SS100 (so 2016x2240ish) but I decided to go down to 80hz -- once I upgrade (next year maybe) I'll be able to play around 120hz with similar settings. I'm one of the lucky ones with a stomach for it so I can deal with the framerate being a little lower. 

 

I'd be quite interested to hear the difference between 80hz non-interpolated and 120hz interpolated from 60 (since I doubt IL2 is ever going to manage 120 FPS just because it's so CPU bound). I find the ghosting on the Oculus ASW from 40 to 80hz and 45 to 90hz was quite noticeable, but maybe 60 interpolated to 120 is less noticeable? Or even 72 interpolated to 144?

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6 hours ago, Alonzo said:

 

I'd be quite interested to hear the difference between 80hz non-interpolated and 120hz interpolated from 60 (since I doubt IL2 is ever going to manage 120 FPS just because it's so CPU bound). I find the ghosting on the Oculus ASW from 40 to 80hz and 45 to 90hz was quite noticeable, but maybe 60 interpolated to 120 is less noticeable? Or even 72 interpolated to 144?

 

I'll do some more testing and get back to you. The strange thing is, 80fps with no reprojection feels better than 60fps interpolated. I still saw the ghosting when I did my initial setup on tuesday.. I haven't tried 144 as I suspect it's pretty bad.

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After some testing I'm running mine at 120 Hz (no motiong smoothing and 148% SS). That results in 60 FPS most of the time but very stable... Sometimes with clouds that are troublesome in VR i kick down to low blower of 40 FPS...

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9 hours ago, mazex said:

120 Hz (no motiong smoothing and 148% SS). That results in 60 FPS most of the time but very stable

 

If you don´t use "Motion Smoothing"  (the Valve equivalent to Oculus ASW technique to interpolate missing frames),  what is the point to run at 120Hz if your PC only reach 60fps?

 

In fact, this is counter productive since your CPU is forced to try to produce 120 scenes per second, so there is little time for the GPU to render them.

 

You have a very similar PC than me, I found that running at 80Hz with not "Motion Smoothing" delivers the highest fps rate.

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3 hours ago, chiliwili69 said:

 

If you don´t use "Motion Smoothing"  (the Valve equivalent to Oculus ASW technique to interpolate missing frames),  what is the point to run at 120Hz if your PC only reach 60fps?

 

In fact, this is counter productive since your CPU is forced to try to produce 120 scenes per second, so there is little time for the GPU to render them.

 

You have a very similar PC than me, I found that running at 80Hz with not "Motion Smoothing" delivers the highest fps rate.

 

Well - I have never got to grips with how Steam VR really works - and what is the difference regarding reprojection vs motion smoothing. So if anyone can explain I would be very happy :)

 

Still, with motion smoothing off (that craps everyting out) using my Vive before, set to 90 Hz, I would almost all the time get 45 FPS in both BoX and DCS. Sometimes in DCS while over water or sparsely populated areas it would start soaring up to 70-90. But it normally jumps from "locked" at 45 to variable 70-90. And the same with my Index set to 90 Hz. Mostly it will be locked at 45 FPS but feels very stable and smooth. And this would mean that I am in reprojection... One thing I have noticed though is that the Index more often is going to 50-60 that almost never happended with the Vive that felt more "locked" to 45 - or high close to 80-90.

 

So - If I switch to 120 Hz it will insted go down to most of the time beeing "locked" to 60 FPS most of the time, somtimes going down to 40 FPS with those pesky coulds. But with 120 Hz it will almost never leave 60 FPS and go to variating 100-120 FPS.

 

So my conclusion (not having understood this completely) is that the reprojection functionality that you can not turn off (unless using config hacks or what not) will notice that my frame rate is not hitting 90 FPS, but it will accept some leway so if I get 70-90 it will not interfere. But if my FPS would be below 70-ish it will go into reprojection low blower of 45 FPS with 90 FPS sent to the HMD with Steam VR filling every other frame. So with 120 Hz it will never hit the 100-120 that would leave it without reprojection kicking in that now will be enabled almost all the time instead of 90 Hz mode. but goes to reprojected 60 FPS instead (and sometimes down to 40 FPS that is the next level). But the end result is that the 60 FPS feels super smooth. And rather 60 than 45...

 

If I would have a better CPU I guess that using 90 Hz would not bring me out of the reprojected 45 a lot of the time as IL2 is CPU bound (my RTX 2080 should not be the bottle neck).

 

But - I am only guessing here. So any help in the optimal settings would be appreciated as I mainly end up locked at 45 (with 90 Hz) or 60 with 120. I guess my rig is able to produce around 60-70 most of the time that caps me at 45 for 90 and 60 for 120... But the end result is very nice so I am happy anyway. The Index truly is awesome - the clarity, resolution and FOV compared to the Vive (OG) really is a big leap... I am running with rather high graphics settings (that I like) so going down on them would probably get me out of reprojection more of the time.

 

AND - I have not tried 80 Hz that you use, and that might be a good choice if it then avoids the reprojection and let's it do 60-70 FPS without reprojection....

Edited by mazex

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6 hours ago, mazex said:

and what is the difference regarding reprojection vs motion smoothing. So if anyone can explain I would be very happy

 

There are two independent things here:

 

1. Techniques equivalent to Oculus ATW: Also called "Reprojection" in SteamVR enviroment. They are always on. They reproject the scene based on the latest rotational tracking data.

 

2. Techniques equivalent to Oculus ASW: It is called "Motion Smoothing" in SteamVR (only for Index), called "Smart Smoothing" in Pitool (only for Pimax), called "Motion Reprojection" for WMR devices (you have to edit default.versettings file). This technique produce synthetic frames (invented) based in the trajectories of objects of previous frames. 

 

More explanations here:

https://uploadvr.com/reprojection-explained/

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