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Sybreed

[Fixed. Thank you devs!] Sorry if I'm harsh, but fighter/bomber careers suck

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I'm on my 3rd mission in my FW-190 A5 career in BoK. As people know, the FW 190 A5 in BoK is stricly a ground attacker, or a fighter/bomber as some prefer to say it. Well, I haven't been able to drop a single bomb on target because of how the AI isn't scripted correctly for these kind of missions:

 

1. The FW190 is supposed to be a fast craft, so why is it going at 290km/h to reach its destination? Even the waypoints on the map mention that we're supposed to cruise at 450km/h. AI seems to believe it's piloting a HS-111, so is going to a speed accordingly. You can't believe how frustrating it is to see the mission briefing sending you to the other side of the map and knowing it will take 45 minutes just making the trip back and forth.

 

2. AI ditching its bombs because of enemy AI. Because we need to cross the front line, we're getting engaged everytime by a bunch of Yak-1s. As soon as the AI see them, they drop their bombs and engage in a losing battle because we were only going at 290km/h. So, I have to ditch my bombs and fight as well, otherwise I'll be reaching the target alone and all the AA will focus me down.

 

The AI should first go high and above 1km of altitude. Then, it needs to ignore enemy planes as much as possible and focus on reaching its target with its payload.

 

And, make the FW go faster! Why are we just going at 290km/h!?!

 

So far, I must say that I am pretty displeased with how the career is handled for the FW-190, but I woudln't be surprised if other aircrafts with fighter/bomber roles have the same problem. I might even ditch the career altogether and just do fighters career instead. I didn't mind doing ground attack stuff, but this is just stupid and uninteresting.

Edited by Sybreed
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Honestly careers are much better when your squadron CO as you get to set the speed, altitude and direction of the flight. But you are right in that strike missions get intercepted far too often and the ai gets dragged into fights it should be avoiding.

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13 minutes ago, ShadowStalker887 said:

Honestly careers are much better when your squadron CO as you get to set the speed, altitude and direction of the flight. But you are right in that strike missions get intercepted far too often and the ai gets dragged into fights it should be avoiding.

that'S the thing. The generated mission says we should be going much faster. Why isn't the AI at least respecting that?

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If you post a generated mission I can open it up, take a look and make necessary suggestions to the Devs.

This would be much more productive than a tantrum.

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I made a Bug Report some time ago, as the very same thing happens in PWCG, too. And not only in ground attack missions, but in fighter missions, as well. Quite frustrating, when you fly a patrol or intercept mission at speeds between 250 and 300km/h. You should see the AI, they are waving around all the time, because they are not able to hold their planes stable with that low speed.

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Perhaps this is a result of the AI ‘improvements’ that came with the last update.   There was something about them being better able to keep formation.  Slowing the cruise speed down may well have been a large part of that.  

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I just carry on while they get involved in teh furball and attack the ground target. have yet to be shot down. I only go over once though and I`m out of there.

5 hours ago, Sybreed said:

So, I have to ditch my bombs and fight as well, otherwise I'll be reaching the target alone and all the AA will focus me down.

 

I let them drop their bombs and get into a furball while I speed up to the bomb target and drop my bombs on it. I`m in and out fast- Not been shot down yet.

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The biggest problem i have is that every mission is swarmed with fighters. I get that there is lots of people who want action and every mission with something to shoot at. But there should be option to pick with more realistic (boring) missions. If you in hs129 get send to support some infantry units most of the time, or attack train. Why there is always bunch of soviets flying around. They cover every single tank on the front line? It's just annoying. Not every mission should end up with bunch of contacts everywhere. Just make this as option in career setting so everyone can be happy.

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Problem before was that in some aircraft, when loaded with bombs in fighter-bomber configuration, it was impossible to fly at the waypoint speed in max continuous power settings, let alone catch up with an AI leader. (Vanilla IL-2 had this problem as well). So I understand that some default cruise speeds were lowered.  Looks like they may have overdone it a bit.....

 

Ideally the waypoint speed setting would take into account not just the plane type, but also the loadout, or even work off a power setting rather than a speed target. 

 

 

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I find the career mode pretty good in general. But exactly in the example of  "fighter bomber II. / Sch. G 1" in BoK the weaknesses of this mode come more clearly to the fore . I can confirm all the points listed here by @Sybreed. The excessive intercept missions of the defenders, the slow cruise and the unrealistic AI behavior are very annoying.

Yes @Gambit21, please take a look at the fighter bomber career in BoK and report these obvious mistakes to the developers. And thank you for volunteering to help.

Edited by hirondo

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Cruise speed is Def messed up. It's either a 109 climbing at full emergency power or then cruising at 250kph. Planes are also now wobbling while trying to fly in formation. 

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4 minutes ago, -[HRAF]BubiHUN said:

In my opinion, SP is like a very long tutorial.

 

For me it’s more like a string of placeholders.  Each feature is there, but ultimately a swing and a miss.  

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SP isn't just there yet. Especially Fighter Bomber Career is no pleasure to fly due to severals issues, most of them has to do with the AI.

 

Too many losses on both sides, false speeds for waypoints, waypoints going directly over enemy AAA (and you can't change them before flight because you have only two waypoints that you can alter), bombers that think they are fighters, fighters that they think they are bombers, pilots that don't care if they will make it home or not etc.

I heard though that formation flying is fixed by now, didn't test it myself though.

 

I am still waiting for THE AI patch that supposedly is coming in the near future before I start flying SP Campaigns again. It is just not worth the time at the moment.

 

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38 minutes ago, -[HRAF]BubiHUN said:

In my opinion, SP is like a very long tutorial.

Really it shouldn't be, there's no where else you can fly historical or even realistic missions, bombing target 1/5 online with 2 other people isn't historical, nothing about online is historical. 1946 offers genuine fun in the offline portion, wish this game did the same.

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Unfortunately, everytime I want to play some offline campaign, somewhat historical I have to go back to the old 1946, the AI there is much better and believable even though they cheat on FM. BoS/BoM/BoK careers stay in the shelf, sadly.

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So much truth has been spoken ^

Worst * you can get is flying 110 or Jabo missions.

Been talking about this from start of Kuban when career came. ( No Fixes on mission structure )

 

Patrick Wilson's career mod is best right now and its done by one guy!

I get escorts in many flights and its good as it can be with the sturmoviks wonky AI.

 

 

 

 

Edited by Godspeed

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It is stated in the DD that they used the same old Rise of Flight Ai code added some small changes for WWII planes so all problems comes from there, WWII is not WWI.

As long the Ai not improve you can forget SP.  As I heard that the Ai has invulnerable in "Havoc Over The Kuban" because everything is based on this feature, says a lot how the Ai really is......

 

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52 minutes ago, Livai said:

It is stated in the DD that they used the same old Rise of Flight Ai code added some small changes for WWII planes so all problems comes from there, WWII is not WWI.

As long the Ai not improve you can forget SP.  As I heard that the Ai has invulnerable in "Havoc Over The Kuban" because everything is based on this feature, says a lot how the Ai really is......

 

 

You have absolutely ZERO clue what your talking about...as usual.

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With all its problems, careers can still be fun. Just think of yourself a a "pathfinder plane" piloted by an experten who arrives well before the main strike force to soften-up the enemy defences. That's what I do anyway by attacking ground/air targets next to the enemy frontline (so I can land in a friendly territory if things go sideways). Then I just wait for the main strike force to catch-up and join it to continue with the main mission. Sometimes if this approach is not possible, I just cause some mayhem and return to base relatively quickly. After the landing I set the time-acceleration to max and wait until "Primary Objective Completed" message appears. This tests my patience though because even with time compression I sometimes have to wait 5-10 minutes.

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I suspect the only way to improve the career significantly into the future is by developing more and better user-made mods.  

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12 hours ago, Gambit21 said:

If you post a generated mission I can open it up, take a look and make necessary suggestions to the Devs.

This would be much more productive than a tantrum.

Gladly, do you mind telling me how I post generated missions? Is it possible to post completed missions? My first 2 are a perfect example of what I was referring to.

 

Also, I don't think I threw a tantrum as I gave 2 distinct suggestions :

 

- Make the AI go faster

- Make them ignore fighters if possible and don't let them get caught in losing fights.

 

If I only complained without giving any feedback, I would have agreed, and while I was extremely annoyed when I posted this, I still wanted to give suggestions to fix the problem, as I knew complaining without giving suggestions is not constructive.

 

Right now, my current mission is fine as it makes me fly over the southern port and I have to bomb a target right after the front line (still takes forever to get their though). But, fly any mission that makes you go deep inside enemy territory and forces you to go near the big city of Krumskaya or something, you'll never reach the destination with your flight.

 

And while I complained about the FW190, my BF-109 career is a lot of fun, as is my Mig-3 career. It's really the fighter/bomber careers that suffer from bad AI.

 

Is it possible to post completed missions? My first 2 are a perfect example of what I was referring to.

Edited by Sybreed

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Go to the ...\IL-2 Sturmovik\data\Missions\, find files *.gen and zip, then post.

 

 

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7 hours ago, [DBS]Browning said:

People did used to complain a lot about not being able to keep up with the AI.

 

I get it, but we went from one extreme to the other. Perhaps the script needs to tweak how AI conducts itself based on the aircraft it's flying and the mission type?

 

BF-109 Intercept: High altitude, high speed

 

FW-190 Ground attack: medium altitude, highish speed (around 400km/h seems fine)

 

HS-111 bombing run: high altitude, low speed

 

HS-129 ground attack: low-medium altitude: Medium speed (350km/h?)

 

FW-190 intercept mission: High altitude, high speed.

 

Stuff like that? Right now, current AI thinks a FW-190 ground attack run is low altitude and low speed.

Just now, Gambit21 said:

Go to the ...\IL-2 Sturmovik\data\Missions\, find files *.gen and zip, then post.

 

 

 

Ok, I'm getting on it.

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3 hours ago, Godspeed said:

So much truth has been spoken ^

Worst * you can get is flying 110 or Jabo missions.

Been talking about this from start of Kuban when career came. ( No Fixes on mission structure )

 

Patrick Wilson's career mod is best right now and its done by one guy!

I get escorts in many flights and its good as it can be with the sturmoviks wonky AI.

 

I can only agree with all the mentioned shortcomings in the FB career mode. It is a pity that the heart of the simulation has such weaknesses. Like many others here, I will stick to Patrick's PWCG. This 3rd party mod is great fun.

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8 hours ago, InProgress said:

Why there is always bunch of soviets flying around.

 

There isn't "always" a bunch of Soviet planes flying around. I've flown plenty enough Hs 129 career missions to know that. 

 

You are greatly exaggerating things.

 

8 hours ago, unreasonable said:

Problem before was that in some aircraft, when loaded with bombs in fighter-bomber configuration, it was impossible to fly at the waypoint speed in max continuous power settings, let alone catch up with an AI leader. (Vanilla IL-2 had this problem as well). So I understand that some default cruise speeds were lowered.  Looks like they may have overdone it a bit.....

 

All of the cruise speeds were checked and re-checked by myself to ensure the player could keep up with the AI no matter the loadout at max continuous power. What's happened, though, is now the AI won't even reach those assigned cruise speeds. As busdriver alluded to above, it's already a reported issue.

 

6 hours ago, Feathered_IV said:

For me it’s more like a string of placeholders.  Each feature is there, but ultimately a swing and a miss.  

 

Yeah, easy for you to say, sitting from the sidelines. Really good AI is hard to program, no matter if it's a video game like this or something way more advanced like self-driving cars. The team is doing what they can to improve things, but it's never going to be something that's flawless or people won't stop complaining about. 

 

6 hours ago, JG4_Sputnik said:

bombers that think they are fighters

 

Bombers don't fly like fighters in career mode.

Edited by LukeFF

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Ok I think I got a good mission for what I was referring to. Weirdly enough, just before that mission I had a bomber intercept mission, something I thought I would never have in a BoK FW campaign. It was honestly a crapton of fun, I filmed most of it and will post it to youtube later.

 

I'm currently flying the ground attack mission to see if we're ambushed at the front lines.

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2 hours ago, Feathered_IV said:

I suspect the only way to improve the career significantly into the future is by developing more and better user-made mods.  

 

If you really think that's the case, then have at it and show us what you can do.

Edited by LukeFF
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Tell me if that works. My 2 last campaigns are FW 190 A5 campaigns. The 2nd one with Paul Von Molkte has a railroad attack mission on the other side of the map. We didn't get ambushed at the frontline but, we did just before we reached the bombing site, meaning we jettisonned the bombs just before we reached the target...

 

But really, if testers want to see it for themselves, start a new FW 190 A5 career....

 

IL-2 Mission file.zip

2 hours ago, Feathered_IV said:

I suspect the only way to improve the career significantly into the future is by developing more and better user-made mods.  

 

I strongly disagree, I hope I don't have to use mods to have a fun SP experience. Testers are showing their intents at improving the game, we just need to get the devs attention.

Edited by Sybreed

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The getting ambushed thing is a mission designed decision that can be adjusted.

It shouldn’t happen every time.

 

The waypoint/speed issue was reported again by several of us.

 

I’ll open that mission file later tonight - thanks.

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3 minutes ago, Gambit21 said:

The getting ambushed thing is a mission designed decision that can be adjusted.

It shouldn’t happen every time.

 

The waypoint/speed issue was reported again by several of us.

 

I’ll open that mission file later tonight - thanks.

 

 

Thank you. I admit, I was pleasantly surprised by the Bomber intercept mission I got before the railroad mission. Wasn't expecting that and it was a lot of fun to use the FW190 for that role.

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Made a 2nd file. This time, the Fabian Walter campaign has a pretty long railroad attack mission as well. I wouldn't be surprised if you get ambushed before reaching the site.

 

 

IL-2 Mission file 2.zip

You could actually just pick the 2nd file, as the rest is identical. Only the new railroad mission for my 1st FW campaign is added.

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Thanks - I won’t be flying it, just looking under the hood at the mission logic.

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1 hour ago, Gambit21 said:

Thanks - I won’t be flying it, just looking under the hood at the mission logic.

 

Your help is appreciated.

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are you guys using the mission commands like "return to mission?"
The attack commands seem to work, not sure about the others, i.e. formation.

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5 hours ago, LukeFF said:

 

If you really think that's the case, then have at it and show us what you can do.

 

I've done quite a few mods over the last 15 years.  I have a large one on the go for the career too.  However I find the turning AI, radio calls and vanishing smoke to be very demotivating.  I'm sure you can understand.  

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14 hours ago, unreasonable said:

Problem before was that in some aircraft, when loaded with bombs in fighter-bomber configuration, it was impossible to fly at the waypoint speed in max continuous power settings, let alone catch up with an AI leader. (Vanilla IL-2 had this problem as well). So I understand that some default cruise speeds were lowered.  Looks like they may have overdone it a bit.....

 

 

Both @LukeFF and I have made suggestions about cruise speeds for (I think) every airplane based on Lead cruising at a speed less than Max Continuous power. And in the case of fighter bombers, whilst carrying a typical load, which may not be the "draggiest" configuration. This current really slow cruise speed is an aberration of some sort. The Devs are aware.

 

Bugger, I see Luke already posted this...sorry for the repetition. 

Edited by busdriver

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11 hours ago, LukeFF said:

 

All of the cruise speeds were checked and re-checked by myself to ensure the player could keep up with the AI no matter the loadout at max continuous power. What's happened, though, is now the AI won't even reach those assigned cruise speeds. As busdriver alluded to above, it's already a reported issue.

 

 

I was talking about how it was about a year ago last time I flew in career (too busy doing flak and DM testing and then RL issues to get immersed in career recently). I certainly had to use time limited power occasionally to keep up when loaded with a bomb. I cannot vouch for more recent tweaks.  That might have been in mixed formations: 109 F-2s and F-4s. When you get this with a Jabo mission, the parameters have to be set for the weakest plane, which I am not sure was always the case.

 

Anyway, I know that continuous improvements are being made. 

 

10 hours ago, LukeFF said:

 

If you really think that's the case, then have at it and show us what you can do.

 

People can only mod the files that the developers allow them to open. As long as the paranoia about MP cheating dictates the policy towards openness BoX mods will be limited and the game will never reach it's full SP potential.

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