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Two seaters gunner accuracy

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Will the modders be able to come up with anything ?

Or is that code not able to be adjusted?

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4 hours ago, Zooropa_Fly said:

I had 15 mins in a Spad yesterday against the CL.II.

I concur starting with at least 600M if not 0.8 - 1.0K, slight umberella handle at the end keeping shots on target, dive away still at full speed.. with a little jigginess.

Never got hit sticking to that, did take some when I got impatient on subsequent attacks, i.e. not starting from the correct position and ending up too slow and too much behind the target. But that's probably as it should be.

The bot gunner does fire and score occasional hits from 900M+ out which gets a bit annoying. Not sure if ammo would be largely wasted like that irl..

 

S!

 

But then you are limited to just one way of attacking it (and still being hit at 900m+), and you need a fast plane for that. Stark and his squadron once turnfighted with 8 Bristols and he forced his Bristol to land. It was when they were still rotating the Dr1s in between the squadron, so he was flying either a Dr1 or an Albatros I suppose. Over here, he would be zapped in the first couple of seconds like a fly (no pun intended), especially against someone who flies and gun. And then, when we get Nieuports and Pups, or when people are attacking with Albies, Pfalzes or Dr1s, what then? 

 

I'm of the opinion that these models are fundamentally wrong since ROF.

 

And gunners fired warning shots at aircraft IRL, but I doubt that they would consistently hit anything at 900m or more (you said it so, occasional hits from 900m+).

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Also IRL only one bullet could be enough to incapacitate the gunner/pilot, right?  🤔

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5 minutes ago, J2_Jakob said:

Also IRL only one bullet could be enough to incapacitate the gunner/pilot, right?  🤔

Indeed.  One .303 British or 8mm Mauser hitting the gunner, or pilot, center of mass would create a fairly devastating wound, and would cause a tremendous loss of ability to do even simple actions, much less operate a weapon in the slipstream, if it didn't kill the crew member outright.

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Why does it appear that it's only me that thinks it's the 2 mm plywood that's the issue and that it's acting like some form of armoured plating ?  

 

I think the pilot is hit more often because he is always partially exposed while the gunner is often as not sitting down well encased in various bits of woodwork.

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Jumped into a gun today on J5 server and can confirm the above evidence when playing as a gunner. Was never wounded or killed. Pilot was almost always killed and when that happened it cut to external view for me and the gunner jumped. So there is no riding down anymore. 

 

There are  also other differences from RoF. When you "take the gun" it takes a second for the guns to start moving-syncd to standing animation. You also cant "stage" the guns anymore. They automatically go to six position when you come off them. I always staged them in a direction i anticipated an attack from-like high six after exiting a cloud, etc. Your head/view can also get crazy and inverted after a bit. And zooming in slows movement speed and all that, which someone mentioned. 

 

All this was non VR and using a mouse.

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After a bit more testing I have come to a slightly different conclusion:

 

Flying a Bristol and fighting a Halberstadt is extremely risky.

Your Bristol gunner doesn't hit anything at all, whereas the Halberstadt gunner will snipe you out of the skies at 1km+ distance (or 500m when the skill level is "low").

Like Otto mentioned, the only way to fight the Halberstadt at all is to attack it from way above, the best being above and upfront, and once you passed the Halb, pull up immediately and pull into his turn so you come out of the gunner's arc as quick as possible.

1 second within a Halberstadt gunners' arc, regardless where, regardless what deflection, regardless 10m behind or 1000m, will get you to eat his bullets.

Do that stunt two times and you're dead.

All in all, if you take time and strictly adhere to these absolutely unnatural tactics, and if there's no other enemy plane around, you can survive the fight.

In my past 10 attempts I scored 8 kills, however every time I went through the Halberstadt gunners' arc once for a split second and came out wounded.

I never ever survived the fight undamaged.

And that was on "normal" skill level for the Halberstadt...

 

Now the opposite: Flying the Halberstadt and fighting the Bristol.

When the Bristol pilot is an ace, you end up having trouble to keep up with the Bristol's performance.

That's the only trouble you will ever have though.

The player's AI buddy in the backseat of the Halberstadt isn't 10% as deadly as the AI-AI combo is, but at least he doesn't shoot at the moon but in the direction of the enemy plane, and occasionally even hits it - even though I never saw him killing the pilot, whereas in the opposite fight... well you know already.

The Bristol's gunner doesn't get you as long as you don't appear in his dead six +/- 10 degrees.

That area is strictly prohibited.

All others: Just fine. He won't get you.

So you've got plenty of time to plan the fight and down the Bristol.

My success rate from 10 attempts was 10/10 and I only got a fuel leak once when I tried the dead-six attack.

 

:drinks:

Mike

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Re: Tactics to kill 2-seaters: 

Two-Seaters are tough to kill alone. In FC, a lot more so. I used to come in at extreme Angles of Attack and saw their wings off with balloon guns in RoF, which isn't really viable anymore since wings are (thankfully) a lot tougher. However, aircraft are quicker to flame. I'd say the best option is to make a high attack and pour as much lead into the engine / fuel tank as possible, set the bugger on fire and get out of dodge before the gunner does the same to you...

 

...that being said, I typically won't attack 2-seaters on my own if I can help it...

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1 hour ago, US103_Larner said:

Re: Tactics to kill 2-seaters: 

Two-Seaters are tough to kill alone. In FC, a lot more so. I used to come in at extreme Angles of Attack and saw their wings off with balloon guns in RoF, which isn't really viable anymore since wings are (thankfully) a lot tougher. However, aircraft are quicker to flame. I'd say the best option is to make a high attack and pour as much lead into the engine / fuel tank as possible, set the bugger on fire and get out of dodge before the gunner does the same to you...

 

...that being said, I typically won't attack 2-seaters on my own if I can help it...

 

This seems right to me and also historically valid. Unfortunately the game does not model the element of surprise very well for the AI: I am sure many 2-seaters were downed in this way without ever firing a shot, the gunner being distracted by looking at the ground or blinded by the sun. I do not think this ever happens in the game unfortunately.

 

 

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It wasn't uncommon for two seaters to turn back and abandon their mission if they were unescorted and saw a patrol of fighters. Only bombing raids would mostly have escorts. All other mission types would get an escort either by chance encounter or few planned ones if available. Heck even fighters would turn back if they were outnumbered and outclassed and behind enemy lines. There were plenty of non combat engagements where a single shot wasn't fired more than combat ones. Unfortunately, only the combat ones are more prominent in books. Ultimately, it depended on the mission importance and offensive.

Edited by yaan98
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On 7/28/2019 at 8:09 PM, HagarTheHorrible said:

Why does it appear that it's only me that thinks it's the 2 mm plywood that's the issue and that it's acting like some form of armoured plating ?  

 

I have wondered the same...the fuselage seems to 'eat' bullets from some angles...

Edited by US103_Larner

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At the risk of becoming guilty of thread necromancy, could any of you FC experts enlighten me as to what the status of two seater gunners is?

I've flown a couple of sorties recently and to me it seemed that nothing changed.

 

For instance, I flew a sortie agains a Halberstadt with loadout set to "empty" and skill to "low", and five times in a row the Halberstadt gunner got me on first pass, regardless whether it was head-on, diving vertically on him, coming from below, 90° deflection or whatever I tried.

Invariably, when I closed in at ~700-800m within the blink of an eye, my pilot got show, the engine got shot (usually oil leak) and the fuel tank got shot. All at once. Always, every time.

I then set myself invincible and tried to attack the same Halberstadt offline, trying to kill the gunner.

No chance.

I've unloaded all 800 bullets of my brave Spad into the gunner's cockpit from less than 50 meters distance, to no avail.

 

Is it just me or are the two seaters still UFOs?

 

:drinks:

Mike

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Nah, invulnerable CL2 gunners was fixed a couple of updates ago. 

Laser-accurate-to-800m-gunners is still with us.

 

Vertical works as they can't tilt guns up, but if your attack pass is going to go by within 50-100m of the EA, you better have destroyed the bugger. They don't miss often at that range.

 

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Human gunners are at an extreme disadvantage compared to AI, especially since the knock-out physiology update. In the Halberstadt especially, an AI gunner can fire forward at a target through the propeller arc without damaging it, not to mention that they can "see" the target through the wing whereas it's physically impossible for a human gunner nestled to the gunsight to do so. AI gunners can also "paint" quasi-invisible targets on the ground, such as unmanned machine guns. Human gunners can still potentially do more in a tight turning dogfight, but to be honest, it's better to have your gunner fly another two-seater, have twice the amount of guns (and bombs) available, and avoid the need for tight dogfighting altogether with simple team tactics. Not to mention that scoring by human gunners is ignored by the parser anyway, that animations are broken and that they can still randomly die or wound the pilot due to lag (an old RoF problem).

 

I still think the situation is better than it was in RoF, where a single experienced crew could reliably take the wings off anything in a matter of seconds. Here it's formations of two-seaters that are particularly effective at scoring pilot kills, which is historical. This is not isolated to just Flying Circus: on the WWII side of things turret fighters and bombers such as the Pe-2 are avoided like the plague.

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Unfortunate in this sim, AI gunners are so unrealistic, and players so flustrated to point of absurd, that some ww2 squadrons tactics is to avoid attacking Pe2s.
Unfortunately same unrealistic behavior is coppied to AI FC two-seaters gunners.

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23 minutes ago, 1PL-Husar-1Esk said:

Unfortunate in this sim, AI gunners are so unrealistic, and players so flustrated to point of absurd, that some ww2 squadrons tactics is to avoid attacking Pe2s.
Unfortunately same unrealistic behavior is coppied to AI FC two-seaters gunners.

 

It's my dearest wish to see improvements happen to human gunners:

 

  • Fix the gun angle and visibility issues
  • Fix the lag death / wounding issues
  • Fix the animations
  • Give them proper scoring
  • Give them actual observer functions such as operating the camera, operating radio equipment, dropping grenades and firing flare pistols
     

Since FC in some regards has taken a step back from RoF, I believe the only option for two-seater crews right now is to adapt and overcome, which is to say: fly in formation with AI gunners. What I expect will happen, is that AI gunners will indeed get nerfed somewhere down the line and that most of the issues with human gunners will remain. We'll cross that bridge when we get there.

Edited by J5_Hellbender

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I just did some QMB missions in a Dolphin, standard layout, against 200hp Halberstadts (twing MG front AND back), one at te time until ammo gone. First try i set the opposition on "random" skills. I shot down 5 in 7 minutes, receiving very few and neglectable hits in the distant fuselage. I then set skill level to ace and I shot down 3 in 4 minutes, this thime with an oiled engine. No pilot hits on myself, but I killed the opposition in more than half of my attacks.

 

As it is now, as soon as the Halberstadt engages in a turnfight he is dead. You can shoot him easily. How so? Always line up the attacking run at 500+ meters away and as son as he turns toward you engage and shoot him at >45 degrees lead. As soon as you get closer while firing your guns, disengage by switching from lead to lag turn. The gunner will not be able to train his guns on you, as long as you stay fast and going in the direction BELOW the fuselage of the Hablebstadt. Then separate, repeat.

 

If the Halberstadt however remains on course, just let him go. Or, in case of the Dolphin, just get the oblique guns and let him have it. It requires some practise to hit with them, especially at the high angle. But like that you can easily kill him as well.

Edited by ZachariasX

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Just now, ZachariasX said:

I just did some QMB missions in a Dolphin, standard layout, against 200hp Halberstadts (twing MG front AND back), one at te time until ammo gone. Fisrt try i set the opposition on "random" skills. I shot down 5 in 7 minutes, receiving very few and neglectable hits in the distant fuselage. I the set skill level to ace and I shot down 3 in 4 minutes, this thime with an oiled engine. No pilot hits on myself, but I killed the opposition in more than half of my attacks.

 

As it is now, as soon as the Halberstadt engages in a turnfight he is dead. You can shoot him easily. How so? Always line up the attacking run at 500+ meters away and as son as he turns toward you engage and shoot him at >45 degrees lead. As soon as you get closer while firing your guns, disengage by switching from lead to lag turn. The gunner will not be able to train his guns on you, as long as you stay fast and going in the direction BELOW the fuselage of the Hablebstadt. Then separate, repeat.

 

If the Halberstadt however remains on course, just let him go. Or, in case of the Dolphin, just get the oblique guns and let him have it. It requires some practose to hit with them, especially at the high angle. But like that you can easily kill him as well.

 

This works against AI pilots with AI gunners, not against human pilots with AI gunners.

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11 minutes ago, ZachariasX said:

I just did some QMB missions in a Dolphin, standard layout, against 200hp Halberstadts (twing MG front AND back), one at te time until ammo gone. First try i set the opposition on "random" skills. I shot down 5 in 7 minutes, receiving very few and neglectable hits in the distant fuselage. I then set skill level to ace and I shot down 3 in 4 minutes, this thime with an oiled engine. No pilot hits on myself, but I killed the opposition in more than half of my attacks.

 

As it is now, as soon as the Halberstadt engages in a turnfight he is dead. You can shoot him easily. How so? Always line up the attacking run at 500+ meters away and as son as he turns toward you engage and shoot him at >45 degrees lead. As soon as you get closer while firing your guns, disengage by switching from lead to lag turn. The gunner will not be able to train his guns on you, as long as you stay fast and going in the direction BELOW the fuselage of the Hablebstadt. Then separate, repeat.

 

If the Halberstadt however remains on course, just let him go. Or, in case of the Dolphin, just get the oblique guns and let him have it. It requires some practise to hit with them, especially at the high angle. But like that you can easily kill him as well.

 

Is not that we ask for advice how to game the game. We ask for realistic behavior of AI - be more like real human not terminators.

 

One example from many

 

 

Edited by 1PL-Husar-1Esk
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Yeah I had that happen to me the other day. If a plane catches fire like that the occupants should be incapacitated fairly quickly. 

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Gunners are rather fireproof, but also with AI pilots. Just shot down a formation of 4 Halbies set to ace in QMB, Dolphin in "Gunship" flavor. Also there, gunners will bail out of a burning aircraft only after all ammo is expended it seems.

 

But when flying online, my friggin AI gunner readily dies. I find him mainly good for alerting me getting bounced (you know, on route to target on Autolevel, reading newspaper), but then It's time to fire'n'fly.

 

Nonetheless, they are bloody fireproof.

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For me, three things off the top of my head :

1. This continuing to shoot through flames for quite a time.

2. Shooting from 1.3km (and they like to glue their finger to the the trigger).

3. Not quite invulnerable, but seem to take some shower of bullets.

Mostly applies to the bot fighters too. (Who incidentally seem to be able to fly for some time after prop stopped..)

 

I'd like to see plane and gunner skill settings seperated.

In the gunners' case, a lower setting would see them open fire early and never hit much.

Higher setting they'd wait until close, and be more accurate.

 

S!

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The 'G' effect on a gunner, when using his gun, should make it very hard for the gunner and have more effect on him than on the pilot, because he is standing up rather than sitting down.

 

Happy landings,

 

56RAF_Talisman

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2 hours ago, 56RAF_Talisman said:

The 'G' effect on a gunner, when using his gun, should make it very hard for the gunner and have more effect on him than on the pilot, because he is standing up rather than sitting down.

 

Happy landings,

 

56RAF_Talisman

 

 

Gunners have zero gravity / no acceleration invisible suits - they do not hang down when plane is up side down and they can shoot you without any problem.

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Thanks for your feedback guys.

Just to see what is what, I did a pretty simple test:

Use a standard Halberstadt with standard loadout, 100% fuel, skill level "novice" (i.e. "low") in Quick Mission.

Arras map, 1000m start altitude, head-on approach.

For player plane, I chose each of the available planes in the set with ~30% fuel each, standard loadout.

After starting the quick mission, I've turned on autopilot immediately and let AI fight against each other.

10 of such sorties for each of the planes available.

Result: The Halberstadt won each and every fight.

No entente aircraft ever was able to defeat it. Never ever.

The utmost thing that happened was that the Sopwith Camel sometimes scored 2 or 3 bullet hits against the Halberstadt.

Each and every time, the Halberstadt gunner, despite being at "novice" level, humilated the entente planes in no time.

 

:drinks:

Mike

Edited by SAS_Storebror

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6 minutes ago, SAS_Storebror said:

Thanks for your feedback guys.

Just to see what is what, I did a pretty simple test:

Use a standard Halberstadt with standard loadout, 100% fuel, skill level "novice" (i.e. "low") in Quick Mission.

Arras map, 1000m start altitude, head-on approach.

For player plane, I chose each of the available planes in the set with ~30% fuel each, standard loadout.

After starting the quick mission, I've turned on autopilot immediately and let AI fight against each other.

10 of such sorties for each of the planes available.

Result: The Halberstadt won each and every fight.

No entente aircraft ever was able to defeat it. Never ever.

The utmost thing that happened was that the Sopwith Camel sometimes scored 2 or 3 bullet hits against the Halberstadt.

Each and every time, the Halberstadt gunner, despite being at "novice" level, humilated the entente planes in no time.

 

:drinks:

Mike

 

Now face them online carrying weapon mods. Could not find a single photo of Halbs carrying twin turret guns in the archives of Wingnut Wings, so I assume it was a novelty back then... One mistake, one cross on his level and you are most likely dead or severely wounded / damaged. And they tilt the plane to allow the gunner shots.

 

 

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3 hours ago, SAS_Storebror said:

Thanks for your feedback guys.

Just to see what is what, I did a pretty simple test:

Use a standard Halberstadt with standard loadout, 100% fuel, skill level "novice" (i.e. "low") in Quick Mission.

Arras map, 1000m start altitude, head-on approach.

For player plane, I chose each of the available planes in the set with ~30% fuel each, standard loadout.

After starting the quick mission, I've turned on autopilot immediately and let AI fight against each other.

10 of such sorties for each of the planes available.

Result: The Halberstadt won each and every fight.

No entente aircraft ever was able to defeat it. Never ever.

The utmost thing that happened was that the Sopwith Camel sometimes scored 2 or 3 bullet hits against the Halberstadt.

Each and every time, the Halberstadt gunner, despite being at "novice" level, humilated the entente planes in no time.

 

:drinks:

Mike

 

Well a Fokker DVII can.  Just ran your scenario twice with a DVII vs the Halb, and the DVII shot down the Halb in the first pass both times, killing the pilot by the look of it.

 

And SE5a got him on the second attempt. (AI does not fly SE5a very well). First time the SE got a fuel leak and ran away....

 

Something odd about your results.

Edited by unreasonable

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2 hours ago, SeaW0lf said:

Now face them online carrying weapon mods. Could not find a single photo of Halbs carrying twin turret guns in the archives of Wingnut Wings, so I assume it was a novelty back then... One mistake, one cross on his level and you are most likely dead or severely wounded / damaged. And they tilt the plane to allow the gunner shots.

 

So from flying the CL.II for some 25+ hours last month on Flugpark, I must say that I feel pretty safe as long as I stay low over the trenches, which is where it belongs. Running home from far behind enemy lines is never really an option as you are too slow to do so and will get caught up. Even if you survive an initial attack, you can still get caught up by the same people taking off again. I can confirm that I've only been knocked out once, though, and that was coming from AAA fire on the ground, whereas my AI gunner gets knocked out regularly by both AAA and enemy machineguns.

 

As you have noted, the AI gunner does have a very limited angle of fire compared to the Bristol (and how it was in RoF), but is extremely accurate when he can actually shoot. This seems to be a factor of relative speed and relative angle compared to the target, as you are forced to offer the gunner that small window and low G-force load or he won't shoot at all.

 

Camels are especially vulnerable to this, as they typically want to hang around, which gives you options to either scissor or raise your tail/wing at them. SEs and SPADs are far more problematic, as they tend to go for high speed passes which gives you only a very small window of opportunity. The SPAD in particular is a notoriously tough plane, and it can pack balloon guns. Bristols and Dolphins are a different story, and I'm yet to lose a single fight to them. This has more to do with how people fly these planes, than with the planes themselves. It was also the case back when I was flying the Bristol with Captain Darling in the back: on paper it's an excellent dogfighting machine (as it was in RoF), but in practice it's too big a target, has too many weak spots, the AI gunner is lacking and human gunners are still bugged. Add visibility problems when flying high, and it's a recipe for disaster, unless you focus on pure BnZ, which an S.E.5a or SPAD is just better at.

 

 

As for the twin turret guns: personally I don't fly with any mods other than gauges and bombs. Anything other than bombs (that can be dropped) drags the 180hp CL.II's performance down to an unacceptable level. I'm not a fan of the 200hp CL.II, as I don't think it fits the current planeset, same as the Fokker D.VIIF. That's a self-imposed limitation, as the 200hp can get away with twin Parabellums and still perform the same as a 180hp CL.II with a single Parabellum.

 

 

I'm wondering (out loud) whether the 180hp CL.II flown in sufficiently large numbers could give rise to a true Spring 1918 scenario without any Summer 1918 overcompressed planes available. I know that many Central flyers would prefer not to fly at all than to give up their D.VIIF, but it could just work if most of the action took place directly over NML or over German lines, as it would have happened historically.

 

There's always been this implied obligation to have artillery spotting and recon missions available for two-seaters, but currently they offer no points or other reward to those who accomplish them. This is sadly a game engine limitation and it's already led to some people quitting the Flugpark server in frustration. Focusing entirely on ground/trench attack for the CL.II would solve this, even though there are still other issues with ground attack to address.

 

 

In conclusion, I will say that the CL.II is a very rewarding option as a team plane for all skill levels and for people flying VR in particular (I will join the ranks soon), as much of the distant spotting is left to the AI gunner. Ground spotting of abandoned machineguns in trenches would be impossible without it, even for non-VR flyers. It's still nowhere near as unfair an opponent as almost any human crewed multi-seater was in RoF, but it does get exponentially better as you get more planes together. And just like that you get a Schlachtgruppe (battle group) going.

Edited by J5_Hellbender
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11 minutes ago, J5_Hellbender said:

 

So from flying the CL.II for some 25+ hours last month on Flugpark, I must say that I feel pretty safe as long as I stay low over the trenches, which is where it belongs. Running home from far behind enemy lines is never really an option as you are too slow to do so and will get caught up. Even if you survive an initial attack, you can still get caught up by the same people taking off again. I can confirm that I've only been knocked out once, though, and that was coming from AAA fire on the ground, whereas my AI gunner gets knocked out regularly by both AAA and enemy machineguns.

 

As you have noted, the AI gunner does have a very limited angle of fire compared to the Bristol (and how it was in RoF), but is extremely accurate when he can actually shoot. This seems to be a factor of relative speed and relative angle compared to the target, as you are forced to offer the gunner that small window and low G-force load or he won't shoot at all.

 

Camels are especially vulnerable to this, as they typically want to hang around, which gives you options to either scissor or raise your tail/wing at them. SEs and SPADs are far more problematic, as they tend to go for high speed passes which gives you only a very small window of opportunity. The SPAD in particular is a notoriously tough plane, and it can pack balloon guns. Bristols and Dolphins are a different story, and I'm yet to lose a single fight to them. This has more to do with how people fly these planes, than with the planes themselves. It was also the case back when I was flying the Bristol with Captain Darling in the back: on paper it's an excellent dogfighting machine (as it was in RoF), but in practice it's too big a target, has too many weak spots, the AI gunner is lacking and human gunners are still bugged. Add visibility problems when flying high, and it's a recipe for disaster, unless you focus on pure BnZ, which an S.E.5a or SPAD is just better at.

 

 

As for the twin turret guns: personally I don't fly with any mods other than gauges and bombs. Anything other than bombs (that can be dropped) drags the 180hp CL.II's performance down to an unacceptable level. I'm not a fan of the 200hp CL.II, as I don't think it fits the current planeset, same as the Fokker D.VIIF. That's a self-imposed limitation, as the 200hp can get away with twin Parabellums and still perform the same as a 180hp CL.II with a single Parabellum.

 

 

I'm wondering (out loud) whether the 180hp CL.II flown in sufficiently large numbers could give rise to a true Spring 1918 scenario without any Summer 1918 overcompressed planes available. I know that many Central flyers would prefer not to fly at all than to give up their D.VIIF, but it could just work if most of the action took place directly over NML or over German lines, as it would have happened historically.

 

There's always been this implied obligation to have artillery spotting and recon missions available for two-seaters, but currently they offer no points or other reward to those who accomplish them. This is sadly a game engine limitation and it's already led to some people quitting the Flugpark server in frustration. Focusing entirely on ground/trench attack for the CL.II would solve this, even though there are still other issues with ground attack to address.

 

 

In conclusion, I will say that the CL.II is a very rewarding option as a team plane for all skill levels and for people flying VR in particular (I will join the ranks soon), as much of the distant spotting is left to the AI gunner. Ground spotting of abandoned machineguns in trenches would be impossible without it, even for non-VR flyers. It's still nowhere near as unfair an opponent as almost any human crewed multi-seater was in RoF, but it does get exponentially better as you get more planes together. And just like that you get a Schlachtgruppe (battle group) going.

 

Since you mentioned, I think I recall that you only use a single Parabellum. That's noble. I always used single guns on my Gotha at the Bruay mission and got plenty of kills with my AI gunners.

 

But until the developers dedicate some time to figure the gunners dynamics, the best advice all around is to stay away from them, which then affects game-play, since we kind of play two different games - scouts looking to shot down scouts and two-seaters doing their own thing. Which is an anomaly, since the role of the scouts was to either defend or shot down two-seaters. In other words, we are just playing furball / airquake missions but pretending to be full real missions. I see Bristols and Halbs and I just go to the other side of the map, especially since the majority of them are AI manned, so it stains your streak. Playing with the streak is the only thing holding me to FC at the moment, although it is a challenge, since we have bogus flak, severe visibility bugs, poor spotting, and I spend most of my time recording tracks and looking for things to record to build reports or to understand in what kind of dystopia we are playing in. The other day I parachuted from my Fokker Dr1 while accidentally pressing Ctl+E instead of Ctrl+R. Hard to settle and start thinking about only fighting.

 

The AI is predictable, but yesterday he was tilting the plane to allow the gunner a clear shot (I thought he was a real player). And he had twin Parabellum’s. For a fraction of a second I crossed his sight and he riddle my plane with bullets.

 

At least the damage model gives us more chance against two-seaters, but it is still a suicidal proposition to engage them, which seems to be way off historically. Just the damage model gives us an idea that future implementations like Gforces and how they manned the gun on the rail would also smother their efficiency greatly, getting them closer to reality and far from the Terminator status they have now, even if our wings are not folding anymore.

 

For a game based on two-seaters (WWI), it is about time they work these things, especially because it appears the same with the WWII modules - scouts avoids them like the plague, which comes back to the airquake thing. One of the reasons why I never even considered playing coop. The dynamics are all skewed. But I do remember of some 1916 missions at Syndicate / Cuban with some F.E.2b with weapon mods zapping everyone down flying in E3s and N11s.

 

Who knows? Perhaps one day they will seat to see this through. But I'm not holding my breath 😂

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Balloon guns in FC offer nothing more than less ammo. Our training and testing has seen no benefits whatsoever. 

 

They also have no added affect to balloons either. 

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I'm going to venture a semi-uneducated guess that the gunner AI for FC is the same as for the other BoX modules. Some of the accounts of gunner AI in this thread sound very similar to things that I've seen and things others have reported about the WW2 planes. (Ju-87's being able to shoot through their own 6'oc blind spot for example) 

 

I honestly don't believe that specific plane model has anything to do with it.  While asking the person making the complaint about it, it's always valid to ask if bad tactics are being used.  IMO it's also valid to ask if there really is a gunner problem.  Case by case, It's my opinion that it's both.  Yes, people get mad when their bad tactics don't get positive results and yes, there are times when the gunner AI does not behave realistically or even way beyond the realm of reasonable simulation.  Sometimes though it actually is completely feasible that with even with good tactics but, with bad luck, it was totally possible to get shot. It just looked so unlikely that "Impossible!", is the go-to reaction.  I guess it really is up to the devs to decide how much they want to tinker with the AI until they say it's going to just have to be that way.

(For clarification, a person who has, or makes, a complaint about something is not the same as a person who is complaining or a complainer.) 

 

 

53 minutes ago, US213_Talbot said:

Balloon guns in FC offer nothing more than less ammo. Our training and testing has seen no benefits whatsoever. 

 

They also have no added affect to balloons either. 

 

 

My impression of the balloon gun is that it's akin to the American Civil War era Mini-ball .50 Cal.  It's a shot that has enough mass that it doesn't lose energy over a long distance.  CW soldiers were known to be fatally hit at distances where other bullets would have just left a stinging bruise. It wasn't a particularly high velocity round either. 

 

It seems ot me that the balloon gun was probably used to send a high volume of fire at the target from a long distance and still be able to poke enough holes in the balloon that it no longer holds sufficient air.  It's almost the same as Lewis gunners on the ground or (I forget the name of the German counterpart) sometimes using elevation charts and maps to lay fire onto enemies that were too far away to see or were obscured behind terrain features the firing arc could still reach over.  

 

I'd try range tests vs. other guns instead of up-close damage tests.  Maybe that's the gun's area of strength.  

Edited by Mobile_BBQ
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I guess we all know the answer by now, and it is not related to bad tactics. The other aspect is that many of us, me included, already spend countless hours building cases, researching, recording tracks and rendering videos to report bugs and inconsistencies. I already have four if not more bug reports on the bug section. It is a lot of work and time consuming, and I assume the majority of players here have jobs, so these things are replacing leisure time with our families, kids, spouses or even work in fact.

 

What I mean is that who is involved with this game knows where the rubber meets the road and the sacrifices we make to be here every day, many times trying to help. 

Edited by SeaW0lf
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That video I made called "after" shows it. Instant one shot kill to my face when pretty far away. 

 

I've attacked, or been a part of an attack, on a bunch of CL2s on MP and I have only been instakilled twice.

 

Yes tactics play into it but there are definitely things that should be tweaked or looked at.

 

@Mobile_BBQ

We've done all that and keep that info inhouse.

Balloon guns used incendiary ammunition specifically for attacking balloons. Most of the planes equipped with them had one balloon gun and one standard vickers. One used for balloons the other for the boche.

 

In RoF there was a noticable difference. Here, not so much. 

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1 hour ago, Mobile_BBQ said:

I'm going to venture a semi-uneducated guess that the gunner AI for FC is the same as for the other BoX modules. Some of the accounts of gunner AI in this thread sound very similar to things that I've seen and things others have reported about the WW2 planes. (Ju-87's being able to shoot through their own 6'oc blind spot for example) 

 

I honestly don't believe that specific plane model has anything to do with it.  While asking the person making the complaint about it, it's always valid to ask if bad tactics are being used.  IMO it's also valid to ask if there really is a gunner problem.  Case by case, It's my opinion that it's both.  Yes, people get mad when their bad tactics don't get positive results and yes, there are times when the gunner AI does not behave realistically or even way beyond the realm of reasonable simulation.  Sometimes though it actually is completely feasible that with even with good tactics but, with bad luck, it was totally possible to get shot. It just looked so unlikely that "Impossible!", is the go-to reaction.  I guess it really is up to the devs to decide how much they want to tinker with the AI until they say it's going to just have to be that way.

(For clarification, a person who has, or makes, a complaint about something is not the same as a person who is complaining or a complainer.) 

 

 

 

Just tested the Ju87 gunner: it cannot shoot through it's six o'clock blind spot, either as the AI with me flying close beneath and below him, or with me as the human gunner.

It can shoot close to it's tail beneath the elevators if it is careful, but it is very easy to hit your own plane. If you hit your own fuselage, the bullets do not appear out of the bottom of the plane.  Flying MP with a little lag it might look as though it is shooting through the tail, but it really is not, at least not in the current version. Hit detection is at the firers PC, I understand, and if you are turning a plane behind you looks as though it is pointing behind your tail and is above your elevators, when from the pursuer's POV he is guns on. So if you hit hit there, it will look to him as though you fire through your tail: it is the reverse of the position of being hit by a pursuer whose guns are pointing behind your tail.   Yet another reason why the developers have said that all DM reports from MP are unreliable.

 

Replicating Storebror's test the DVII won two out of two and the SE5a one out of two: in each case by hitting the Halb in the merge. In no case did the gunner hit the pilot of the scout.

 

With realistic firing arcs and now the fine tuning of the pilot/gunner physiology model, I suspect this is now nearly right. It should also be possible for gunners not to see attackers in the sun on occasion.  But attacking 2 seaters was dangerous, which is why the experts did it by surprise attack from the sun when they flew alone, or in flights of scouts ganging up on a single two-seater: which in turn forced the single seaters to fly in groups for mutual protection. I get the impression that people think that one on one in a sustained fight the scout should almost always win, and I have no idea where this comes from, unless it is from stories of MvR shooting down loads of BEs and FEs which both had a very limited rear arc, and in the case of the BEs, the structural strength of a wet paper bag.  If you want to attack a two seater, do it as a group or a fast slashing attack from the front.  

 

Anyway, reading between the lines of Jason's posts on the BoN choice I would be surprised if FC sold well enough for the team to spend any more time on it, so we had better just get used to where it is now: but where there is life there is hope. I suppose. 

Edited by unreasonable

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5 minutes ago, unreasonable said:

 

Just tested the Ju87 gunner: (snip)

----

Anyway, reading between the lines of Jason's posts on the BoN choice I would be surprised if FC sold well enough for the team to spend any more time on it, so we had better just get used to where it is now: but where there is life there is hope. I suppose. 

 

Then I must have experienced different problem then.  The last time I was hit like this (a few days ago) the 87 was flying level and I was 200m-300m below and behind, level and directly on his 6 the whole time I was making my approach.  The gunner may have been able to "see" me when I was beyond effective range but, once I was in position to pull up for my shot into his underside, I got nailed in the engine. There's no way that kind of shot could have been made even if the gunner put the gun over the side and pointed down as far as he could.  If he could look over the side and see anything of my plane that might have been shoot-able it would have been my wing tips. 

----

I do hope that this module series does continue and gets a bit more meat on the bone for the current release as well but, if not, I guess it is what it is...  

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30 minutes ago, US213_Talbot said:

...

In RoF there was a noticable difference. Here, not so much. 

 

FC and ROF description mentions
- twin Vickers MK.1 7.69mm, so normaly firing standaerd rifle calibre cartridges;
and for the mod
- twin Vickers “Balloon guns” for firing 11.43 mm rounds while adding a muzzle velocity of 610 m/s.
That balloon gun ammo should be incendiary tracer bullets and I do believe the ROF ones at least are.
What says makes one doubt this made it to FC.
Edited by West

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The easiest way to test balloon guns is go attack a balloon. In RoF it was flamed damn near instantly. FC it's exactly same with Vickers. 

 

YMMV.

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