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SAS_Storebror

Two seaters gunner accuracy

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Posted (edited)

Now that we got the Bristol F.2B and the Halberstadt CL.II, and now that we've implemented them on our FAC Server's training mission, I thought I'd give them a try.

I've been facing Halberstadts flying in an F.2B and vice versa a couple of times now, each time both my AI opponents and myself were equipped with a gunner in the backseat.

I'm not trying to whine, but I'm a bit surprised to see that each and every sortie I flew so far ends with me and my AI gunner being killed by the AI plane's gunner.

 

It happens almost instantly whenever I get into the enemy AI gunner's field of fire.

I might survive one, sometimes two passes with 90 degree deflection across the enemy's flight path, but latest on the 3rd time when I appear in that gunner's field of fire, he'll snap-kill me within the glimpse of an eye.

At the same time, my own AI buddy in the backseat is shooting as if there's no tomorrow, but doesn't hit sh*t.

 

I'm a bit at a loss here, as anything but head-on attacks at my two-seater enemy, followed by an immediate dive with heavy stick movement to every direction, just to evade his magic powers backseater, gets me blown out of the sky quite reliably.

And the amount of head on attacks you can sport like that is quite limited too.

 

So here's my question: What's the tactics to be used against these planes?

And why does the AI plane's gunner always seem to hit, while the human player's AI buddy never seems to do so?

 

Or is it just me?

Note: I'm not doing dead-six attacks. I'm not that dumb. I know how to attack e.g. Pe-2s and survive that, same to 111s, but I've got no luck with any of my "avoid enemy gunner" tactics in FC so far.

I'd also like to state that I'm not too dumb to hit.

Actually I tried to kill the pilot or at least the gunner in these 90 degree deflection attacks, and I see that I'm spot on with my shots, I see bullet impacts peppering the enemy plane along the whole upper side of the fuselage, from engine to tail straight along, but neither the pilot nor the gunner seems to get hit. Whereas in contrast, when I get into the enemy gunners field of fire, 1/10th second lader I'm eating one bullet and see black/red screen for a split second, then another 1/10th second later I'm dead. Always. Each and every time.

:drinks:

Mike

 

Edited by SAS_Storebror

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It's the usual story mate... this post will soon be full of sniper stories that will make your hair curl!

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Lol yeah probably.

That's why I've said I don't want to whine, because these posts always tend to sound alike.

For the time being, I take it that I have to adopt new tactics, so I'd like to know which ones - from the more experienced RoF veterans maybe, or from others who successfully deal with these new two-seaters.

The fact that my AI buddy doesn't like to hit while the AI/AI combo achieves rather mindblowing results is a different story, but let's not focus on that for the moment...

 

:drinks:

Mike

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I'm not sure there are any manoeuvre restrictions YET, it'll be interesting to see if the stress and fatigue model, mentioned in the last DD will also affect gunners.  Yesterday in QM I had, on more than one occasion,  two seaters, diving for the ground, inverted, and the rear gunner still popping of accurate rounds.  I'm pretty sure those fellas aren't strapped in.  I wonder if as a rule of thumb it should be, double the "G", double the potential dispersion/ accuracy zone for manoeuvres and a radical change of attitude should result in several seconds of gradually improving accuracy of bursts by the gunner.

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What would be a typical ammunition mix be for a rear gunner, would they all be tracer ?

 

If a typical mix is much the same as for any other aerial gun, or 5-1, rather than 1-1, then for a typical burst of probably only a second or so, for high aspect targets, then the gunner only has one, possibly two rounds, out of a total of 8 -10 in a burst that will be tracer.  Not a great deal when relying on fall of shot for adjusting fire.

 

At the moment the gunners show all the benefits of shooting from a steady, non manoeuvring, platform, with ample time to use the sights accurately, whilst subject to wild, and sometimes wacky, manoeuvres or increased "G" forces.

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Posted (edited)

I just flew a bit at the J5 Flugpark and I can attest that the AI gunners are sniping deadly. I could get away because I was flying a Camel against the Halb D2, so I could climb and avoid the bugged angle limitation on the Halb. But every time I got on the gunners level, he riveted my plane good. It was just against a couple of players and for a few rounds, and I did not fly against the Bristol (which does not have the gun angle bug). So it will take some time to access how the gunners perform. But one thing is for sure, the AI gunners won’t be limited to dead six shots. In one of the bounces I saw him turn the turret and hit me almost dead when I was already extending from him. 

 

The other aspect is, due to the Halb gun angle bug, I could see how G-forces would change the whole thing. For once in this game we could have some realistic chances, especially against man manned turrets. This if they do this G-force fatigue right, because they might render the pilots useless as well, which is not realistic (some elder pilots here saying they can pull Gs all they long without a sweat in modern aircraft and harder G-forces). So I have yet to see if they are going to get it right. But yes, this was what we were missing in ROF - some sort of limitation on the gunner because of G-forces and maneuvers.

 

Otherwise, the way they are even deadlier in Flying Circus, even the AI gunners, multiplayer will be just a waste of time (SP for that matter as well).

Edited by SeaW0lf
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Posted (edited)
13 minutes ago, SeaW0lf said:

I just flew a bit at the J5 Flugpark and I can attest that the AI gunners are sniping deadly. I could get away because I was flying a Camel against the Halb D2, so I could climb and avoid the bugged angle limitation on the Halb. But every time I got on the gunners level, he riveted my plane good. It was just against a couple of players and for a few rounds, and I did not fly against the Bristol (which does not have the gun angle bug). So it will take some time to access how the gunners perform. But one thing is for sure, the AI gunners won’t be limited to dead six shots. In one of the bounces I saw him turn the turret and hit me almost dead when I was already extending from him. 

 

The other aspect is, due to the Halb gun angle bug, I could see how G-forces would change the whole thing. For once in this game we could have some realistic chances, especially against man manned turrets. This if they do this G-force fatigue right, because they might render the pilots useless as well, which is not realistic (some elder pilots here saying they can pull Gs all they long without a sweat in modern aircraft and harder G-forces). So I have yet to see if they are going to get it right. But yes, this was what we were missing in ROF - some sort of limitation on the gunner because of G-forces and maneuvers.

 

Otherwise, the way they are even deadlier in Flying Circus, even the AI gunners, multiplayer will be just a waste of time (SP for that matter as well).

 

I just want to point out that the gun angle on the Halb is lower than on the Bristol in any case, since it doesn't have an actual Scarff ring which allows the guns to be raise and lowered on a rail.

 

From what I can tell, it may be more realistic this way (at least when angling downward), since the Parabellum is a pretty big gun installed in a very small and cramped turret.

 

Obviously I'd prefer it to be the way it was in Rise of Flight, but that's my personal bias.

 

spbw4wnzut801.jpg

 

 

 

When it comes to the deadly accuracy of AI gunners, I'm just not surprised.

 

It's a pretty big complaint on the WWII side of things also. It would certainly help if AI gunners were simply disabled for human pilots in multiplayer.

 

This means that you either need to man the gun yourself and fly at the same time (bit lame, but still not as bad as sniper AI) or find a buddy and form a pilot/gunner team (highly recommended — no I'm not sharing).

Edited by J5_Hellbender
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13 minutes ago, J5_Hellbender said:

This means that you either need to man the gun yourself and fly at the same time (bit lame, but still not as bad as sniper AI) or find a buddy and form a pilot/gunner team (highly recommended — no I'm not sharing).

 

The problem is, I’m of the opinion that the highlighted part should be banned from servers. It is far from a simulator feature and it can become a tenfold deadlier than an AI. It takes only a couple of players who fly and gun and that show up regularly to simply screw the mission. A while back I saw some WWII aces saying that they don’t engage two-seaters anymore. In other words, we would be reinventing the war in a skewed way. And two-seaters are the reason for the air war. Then I’m of the opinion that they should dedicate a special time to figure these things out so we can play.

 

Regarding the AIs, I'm of the opinion that the devs should just work on it, because they were part of the war and I imagine that every plane would take-off with a gunner / observer most of the times. Or at least I think they should. Then I think we should have the option to have an AI gunner on the back seat.

 

I'm no expert of the Halb, so if the gun is being correctly modeled, this is interesting, because it will give us scouts a chance [for a chance]. Especially since she is German, so it will come against good climbers like the Camel, SE5a and Spads, even Dolphins. It also forces people to adapt and create their own moves and tactics to exploit or defend from such moves. I like it, because it makes the engagements more like we have with scouts - we come with some moves, the opponent replies with defenses and counterattacks and so on so forth. That's why I'm so passionate about dogfights. It makes you think like in a chess match. Back in ROF, there was no such thing against two-seaters with human gunners. It was basically a one sided affair, unless we gathered a few planes to attack in droves and put some players as sacrificial lambs. It was silly, really.

 

So I welcome the gun angle on the Halb, if that's correct. It will add more to the game.

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Posted (edited)

Do we have WW2 gunners equipped with g-suits and super powers?

 

- they will fire at distances of 800-900m quite accurately. Try shooting anything at that range with a ring and bead.

 

- the 2seater will invert, fly near level and the gunner will shoot UP, maybe thru the floor, and hit you as you fly above him!

 

- They're virtually indestructible. Bullets seem to pass thru them into the pilot, who dies. This is actually making very little sense. With the new dispersion it's become much easier to kill pilots in FC than it was in RoF. Even with a single burst, and the fuselage seems to have less 'shielding' effect too. 

So why aren't gunners, and especially in my experience Halb CL2 gunners, dying the same way?

Edited by US103_Baer
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Posted (edited)

Given the apparent difference between the vulnerability of the Halb gunner and that of the Brisfit I wonder if the plywood skin acts as some magical armour plating, akin to the resistance of Stalinwood.  Both the Albatross and Pflaz D.III appear to be increadbly tough and able to absorb a tremendous amount of punishment.  The apparent killing of C.III  pilots, through the gunner, might be explained by the constant exposure of the pilots head and shoulders while the gunner, when sitting down, is entirely surrounded by fuselage.

Edited by HagarTheHorrible

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That's because when rifle bullet hits the wood, you get a small hole you don't even patch. WW1 pilots were painting cocardes around them.
When rifle bullet hits the fabric, it rips and keeps ripping from the airstream, compromising whole plane.

AI pilots teamed with AI gunners are more competent because pilot flies to gunners strength better. 

FC AI gunners are better than RoF gunners when coupled with human pilots. Not sure if it makes them good enough to justify extra weight they bring :), but they are able to hit their targets.

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19 hours ago, SAS_Storebror said:

For the time being, I take it that I have to adopt new tactics, so I'd like to know which ones - from the more experienced RoF veterans maybe, or from others who successfully deal with these new two-seaters.

 

Uh-oh. Here we go again... (

 

Image result for SE5a lewis

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13 hours ago, US103_Baer said:

Do we have WW2 gunners equipped with g-suits and super powers?

 

- they will fire at distances of 800-900m quite accurately. Try shooting anything at that range with a ring and bead.

 

- the 2seater will invert, fly near level and the gunner will shoot UP, maybe thru the floor, and hit you as you fly above him!

 

- They're virtually indestructible. Bullets seem to pass thru them into the pilot, who dies. This is actually making very little sense. With the new dispersion it's become much easier to kill pilots in FC than it was in RoF. Even with a single burst, and the fuselage seems to have less 'shielding' effect too. 

So why aren't gunners, and especially in my experience Halb CL2 gunners, dying the same way?

 

Another thing I noted is that the Halb gunner will continue firing after a crash with the aircraft upside down on top of him, through a line of trees, at Spads parked in an airfield hundreds of meters away.

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15 hours ago, SeaW0lf said:

The problem is, I’m of the opinion that the highlighted part should be banned from servers. It is far from a simulator feature and it can become a tenfold deadlier than an AI. It takes only a couple of players who fly and gun and that show up regularly to simply screw the mission.

I don‘t think so. Well flown two seaters were about the deadliest you could encounter back then, especially since there are few „ace“ requirements to make it a headache for any attacker. It was always hardest being shot by someone you consider a lesser creature than yourself.

 

So, no, I don‘t think it should be banned as it is about the only way you can fight a gang on TS (that simply didn‘t exist back then) taking turns at you. Also, if you banned flying and gunning, then you should lock up the gunner station for good. (Is that what you mean by „AI“ gunners?) Bender and Darling are a prime example how the poor aces that only mean best for a mission can suffer at the hands of a gunner. And yet we all live.

 

15 hours ago, SeaW0lf said:

A while back I saw some WWII aces saying that they don’t engage two-seaters anymore

Better gang shooting stragglers then. Gives awesome stats. And having people like that around sure makes it tempting to bomb airfields.

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Ban seat changing (view advantages as well as it simulating nothing).

Ditch the bots' 'Ace' setting.

Give option of a random gunnery setting (without Ace as per above).

I'd like my bot gunners to at least have the chance of being as deadly as any others in the game.

 

S!

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Posted (edited)
35 minutes ago, Zooropa_Fly said:

Ban seat changing (view advantages as well as it simulating nothing).

 

Agreed on the rest, but why this? Ideally, if you wanted to gun, the AI would take pilot role and you would be just gunner, no plane control.

 

Is this unacceptable for most people?

Edited by J2_Bidu

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On 7/26/2019 at 7:24 PM, SAS_Storebror said:

but I'm a bit surprised to see that each and every sortie I flew so far ends with me and my AI gunner being killed by the AI plane's gunner.

I flown it in QMB and in a WW1 server I cant remember the name of. In that server almost all flew two seaters, due to balance I chose the German one. 

My German friend in back seat is very good downwards but he cant fire upwards. So trick with the German one is go high, and attacking the English one go low

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4 hours ago, J2_Bidu said:

Uh-oh. Here we go again... (

Eh... excuse me sir?

What's wrong about asking for successful tactics against the two-seaters?

 

See: It's quite possible to share them:

7 minutes ago, LuseKofte said:

I flown it in QMB and in a WW1 server I cant remember the name of. In that server almost all flew two seaters, due to balance I chose the German one. 

My German friend in back seat is very good downwards but he cant fire upwards. So trick with the German one is go high, and attacking the English one go low

 

Thanks a lot Otto, I'll try the "high" attack against Halberstadts.

Funny thing that... quite counter intuitive, but now that the gunner seemed to hit me through the fuselage when I attacked low, it sounds reasonable to try it high instead.

 

:drinks:

Mike

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Posted (edited)
5 minutes ago, SAS_Storebror said:

Eh... excuse me sir?

What's wrong about asking for successful tactics against the two-seaters?

 

My answer was a reference to a rather long forum discussion on the historical truth of using the overwing Lewis gun to shoot other planes, specifically by shooting it at intermediate angles from 45 to 90 degrees. It was used to hunt two seaters with some success (by Ball for instance), but apparently at higher angles (~90) than what is set in game (~45), for which there seems to be little factual support (holding the gun being particularly hard, especially if turning and pulling G's while at it).

Edited by J2_Bidu
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The best way to attack two seaters is to let a bunch of other guys like Bidu go in first and wear him down.  If they get shot down, and they probably will, oh well.  Once the two seater is a smoking, streaming wreck, with a dead gunner, then go in and finish him off a couple of short bursts..fly back home unscathed and take pride in your growing streak.

 

🤢

 

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35 minutes ago, J2_Bidu said:

Ideally, if you wanted to gun, the AI would take pilot role and you would be just gunner, no plane control.

And what would this „artificial intelligence“ do? Something intelligent?

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I flew against a Halb again on J5 Flugpark. That AI gunner fired at every change he got (whenever I crossed paths with his level) and hit me all the time. I could not help to laugh. What is strange is that AI planes are moronic, and now we got gunners that feel like heat seeking missiles, just relentless, no G-forces, nothing, firing from any instance. Plus those weapon mods.

 

One on one you can manage altitude, but you need to get him in the first bounce or two, otherwise the bot will start to rivet your plane like a Swiss cheese if the pilot manages to position him for shots. And in a furball, there is no way to avoid the gunner.

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1 hour ago, ZachariasX said:

And what would this „artificial intelligence“ do? Something intelligent?

 

Whatever the two-seater AI normally does.

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2 hours ago, SAS_Storebror said:

Eh... excuse me sir?

What's wrong about asking for successful tactics against the two-seaters?

 

See: It's quite possible to share them:

 

Thanks a lot Otto, I'll try the "high" attack against Halberstadts.

Funny thing that... quite counter intuitive, but now that the gunner seemed to hit me through the fuselage when I attacked low, it sounds reasonable to try it high instead.

 

:drinks:

Mike

I read that it was made for high alt patrol that is why they made it for improved protection from below. 

The Bristol have a higher mount on its defencive gun. Expecting attacks from high six

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Posted (edited)
8 minutes ago, J2_Bidu said:

Whatever the two-seater AI normally does.

This means, should I want to be gunner, I am required to have have a lobotomized pilot? Or would the „Shift-A guy“ be allowed? Would I be allowed to tell the pilot things like „right turn please“? (And he would execute that command?)

Edited by ZachariasX

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, SeaW0lf said:

I flew against a Halb again on J5 Flugpark. That AI gunner fired at every change he got (whenever I crossed paths with his level) and hit me all the time. I could not help to laugh. What is strange is that AI planes are moronic, and now we got gunners that feel like heat seeking missiles, just relentless, no G-forces, nothing, firing from any instance. Plus those weapon mods.

 

One on one you can manage altitude, but you need to get him in the first bounce or two, otherwise the bot will start to rivet your plane like a Swiss cheese if the pilot manages to position him for shots. And in a furball, there is no way to avoid the gunner.

 

The first remedy to this is to get the server operator to turn down the skill level.

Edited by SeaSerpent
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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, US103_Talbot said:

images.jpeg.jpg

I known Mike a while. his been in sims long. 

Slow moving kites need g impact on its gunners. They need to be less effective in maneuvers , it is a legit consern.

Next time you feel a need for patronizing , go and take a beer. Then you see things more clear 

Edited by LuseKofte
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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, SeaSerpent said:

 

The first remedy to this is to get the server operator to turn down the skill level.

 

I thought about it - if the servers could choose the level of the AI. Good to know. Let's see what happens in the long run.

Edited by SeaW0lf

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Blind spots for the gunners make them live able. 

But it is time for gunners to be affected to g forces. 

They should be dangerous in level flight against a target getting right at them. Their ability to protect the aircraft should not go away. Just be a bit more realistic. 

Atm we have no targets that get destroyed by the bombs. So they got a lot to do

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3 hours ago, ZachariasX said:

This means, should I want to be gunner, I am required to have have a lobotomized pilot? Or would the „Shift-A guy“ be allowed? Would I be allowed to tell the pilot things like „right turn please“? (And he would execute that command?)

 

Yes, I think that is essentially what you would get: a half-wit pilot. I'd say any control coming from the gunner would be out of question, or it would get us back to the original problem - them acting as a one multi-body entity. It would be nice to have a "last action" option when quitting the pilot place, like "hold course" or "circle here" or "fight for your life", but no feedback from the gunner, in my opinion.

 

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Posted (edited)

The bigger issues to me are:

1. that gunners, whether AI or human, seem unaffected by g-forces or impossible situations. Including, when flying upside down, they continue shooting upwards through the floor and hit planes flying above them. This should be resolved in a way that affects human and AI gunners.

 

- AI gunners especially Halb, appear to have almost no hit box or its being shielded by something. This includes while he's STANDING UP and shooting, not sitting down. 

To quote Mr Larner "The last thing we need is an immortal J30_Mein!"

 

- AI gunners are firing accurately at ranges above 1000m. You can't even do that max zoomed with an aldis! But they can.

 

 

The whole argument against flying and gunning is flawed because it makes no practical difference to an attacking pilot. 

Edited by US103_Baer
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1 hour ago, US103_Baer said:

The bigger issues to me are:

1. that gunners, whether AI or human, seem unaffected by g-forces or impossible situations. Including, when flying upside down, they continue shooting upwards through the floor and hit planes flying above them. This should be resolved in a way that affects human and AI gunners.

 

 

Did this not also happen in unmodded RoF? In SP I used a mod which gave the gunners more realistic arcs and reaction time: perhaps FC has imported the old default arcs, and other aspects of gunner behaviour.

 

1 hour ago, US103_Baer said:

 

- AI gunners especially Halb, appear to have almost no hit box or its being shielded by something. This includes while he's STANDING UP and shooting, not sitting down. 

The last thing we need is an immortal J30_Mein!

 

 

I tested a Halb using a scout set to the same nationality in the ME - I agree something is odd: I could not hit the gunner crouching in his pit through the fuselage at all.

 

The whole issue of AI gunner behaviour in FC needs to be overhauled in order to bring it up to latest BoX standards, or if it already is some developer input as to what is going on would be very welcome. 

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12 hours ago, J2_Bidu said:

My answer was a reference to a rather long forum discussion on the historical truth of using the overwing Lewis gun to shoot other planes

Okay, that's understood, but why did you quote me right above that answer then?

I've never ever joined such discussion.

 

6 hours ago, US103_Talbot said:

I guess I'll go have a beer then.

I start to get that this topic seems to evoke distant memories for some elder RoF guys, but trust me I've been coming here with good intentions only.

If that legitimates patronizing single-image-replies, then yes... I'd recommend having a beer instead as well.

 

Thanks to all your replies guys, especially talking about the Halberstadt gunner and the overall gunner accuracy in FC.

It matches my results from further QM fights, the Halberstadt seems to be the most difficult plane to tackle at the moment.

The one thing I couldn't get my head wrapped around yet is why my gunner (be it in the Halb or the Bristol) can't seem to hit something of the size of the QM2 at arms length, whereas AI plane gunners shoot a pimple off my nose from a mile's distance. It's both the same AI gunner, isn't it?

 

At least Otto's hint of attacking the Halb from high above seems to help a bit, even though I have to agree to @SeaW0lf on this:

11 hours ago, SeaW0lf said:

One on one you can manage altitude, but you need to get him in the first bounce or two, otherwise the bot will start to rivet your plane like a Swiss cheese if the pilot manages to position him for shots. And in a furball, there is no way to avoid the gunner.

 

Probably @unreasonable summarized it quite reasonable:

46 minutes ago, unreasonable said:

The whole issue of AI gunner behaviour in FC needs to be overhauled

 

:drinks:

Mike

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5 hours ago, SAS_Storebror said:

Okay, that's understood, but why did you quote me right above that answer then?

I've never ever joined such discussion.

 

Because my advice would be "get under them pull your Lewis gun up and shoot them out of the sky", but right now, to do it, I have to exercise some self-control and add "and do it in an historically plausible way" to it. So I'm assuming that bringing this subject back to answer your question might bring the whole discussion back. At that, there may be misunderstandings. People might get over-sensitive about what's being said, requiring further explanation which may hit more sensitive spots, and when you notice, things have gone completely overboard, answers become fastidiously long, nobody even cares what's being said, and everyone's just hoping for some sort of termination. I could elaborate on this further, but my keyboard is running out of 

17 hours ago, SeaSerpent said:

 

The best way to attack two seaters is to let a bunch of other guys like Bidu go in first and wear him down.  If they get shot down, and they probably will, oh well.  Once the two seater is a smoking, streaming wreck, with a dead gunner, then go in and finish him off a couple of short bursts..fly back home unscathed and take pride in your growing streak.

 

🤢

 

SO IT WAS YOU?!

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@SAS_Storebror you want to do a Larner dive on the buggers. From 500-600m above,  straight down absolutely vertical, balloon guns blazing.

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I had 15 mins in a Spad yesterday against the CL.II.

I concur starting with at least 600M if not 0.8 - 1.0K, slight umberella handle at the end keeping shots on target, dive away still at full speed.. with a little jigginess.

Never got hit sticking to that, did take some when I got impatient on subsequent attacks, i.e. not starting from the correct position and ending up too slow and too much behind the target. But that's probably as it should be.

The bot gunner does fire and score occasional hits from 900M+ out which gets a bit annoying. Not sure if ammo would be largely wasted like that irl..

 

S!

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41 minutes ago, US103_Baer said:

@SAS_Storebror you want to do a Larner dive on the buggers. From 500-600m above,  straight down absolutely vertical, balloon guns blazing.

 

Is that what it's called, the "Larner dive"?

 

I wonder why. Also, I wonder, why is my plane on fire? Was than an engine sound?

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2 hours ago, J2_Bidu said:

 

 

SO IT WAS YOU?!

 

No, I don't play Flying Circus.  But I definitely would find myself waiting for 2 seaters to be softened up substantially in RoF before going in.  The upshot is that uber-gunnery is not good for encouraging realistic behaviors and tactics.

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