Jump to content
Wuerger62

Non-existent balance between VR users and TrackIR users on online server

Recommended Posts

1 minute ago, II./JG77_motoadve said:

Drive your car, can you check six? Can you turn your neck 180 degrees? No.

Actually, afer playing a lot in VR, I got habbit to check my blind spots in car by turning my head :) That IL-2 game is not only amusing, but healty also :) 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
29 minutes ago, II./JG77_motoadve said:

Can you turn your neck 180 degrees? No.

Actually the “owl neck” motion in IL-2 makes looking behind you more difficult compared to DCS which has a realistic head turn. With the 180 you have to look back and lean otherwise you’re looking straight at your headrest, whereas in DCS you just look back and automatically see over your shoulder. It’s better. 

3 hours ago, JgonRedcorn said:

How did I know Sharpe would be in here fighting the good fight. Preach brother! Vanquish those 3d devils back to the chasms of hades! You are truly touched. 🤣

Who’s touched?

Here’s what the OP asked for, restricting monitor players:

 

“Restrict TrackIR users to the possibilities of VR users by limiting the zoom function and adjusting the viewing angles to the normal human level ”

 

That’s what I’m “fighting”

If you mean touched by intelligence and common sense I’ll take that as a compliment. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
10 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

Actually the “owl neck” motion in IL-2 makes looking behind you more difficult compared to DCS which has a realistic head turn. With the 180 you have to look back and lean otherwise you’re looking straight at your headrest, whereas in DCS you just look back and automatically see over your shoulder. It’s better. 

Who’s touched?

Here’s what the OP asked for, restricting monitor players:

 

Restrict TrackIR users to the possibilities of VR users by limiting the zoom function and adjusting the viewing angles to the normal human level

 

That’s what I’m “fighting”

If you mean touched by intelligence and common sense I’ll take that as a compliment. 

 

I would not worry fighting what you are fighting.

There is zero chance the Devs would even consider restricting Track IR users to view limitations.

And to be frank, they have restricted some head movement for VR users - at least for the Expert Mode head movement has limitations in the cockpit, so 

servers that use Expert  will have some limitations on view in VR.
 

Personally I don't use that limitation as I find it nauseating and irritating, and I fly single player only so I use Custom settings. 

The main point of the OP was that he would like to see Zoom increased for VR, to be more compatibly with the zoom in the game in 2d.

One can have that now to some extent if they use the Zoom Mod, but it can be somewhat complex and certainly not perfect.

I personally do not use the Mod, namely because don't much care to use Mods.

 

Increasing Zoom for the Devs would  undoubtedly not be an easy task and will have side effects. Both main combat flight sims currently have 2x zoom only for VR for 

this reason I am sure. It would be nice though someday if the Devs could find a way to making a higher zoom ratio work in VR.

As the VR devices continue to improve it will become less an issue, as everything is pretty much full size in the VR world. I can already tell a substantial difference in being able to see the planes better in my Rift S at further distances than I previously was in the Rift CV1.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Oddly enough, and even though I have the TrackIr set for a full 180 degree look back, I find that going fully back like that can 'confuse' and 'lock' the camera in strange positions when fast paced action is happening at 6 o'c.  If you don't have TrackIR but do have a flat panel monitor , go to single player and padlock to an enemy on your dead 6 o'c.  Notice how trying to turn the plane and keeping the camera coordinated can be quite a chore.  TrackIR isn't padlock, but it is a manual version of it of sorts. 

It seems to me that in-game blind spots inserted into each cockpit in the areas a real or VR pilot can't look would actually help TrackIr users even more.  

 

I would set the camera to only rotate left/right to about 160 degrees but, I'm not sure if it will effect the camera turn speed or how to adjust it better for my play style.  Ideally, If I turn my head right, I would want to see the rudder at the right edge of the screen and no further.  Turning left would show the rudder at the left edge of the screen and no further. 

 

One thing that VR users have over flat-screeners is the ability to look at 12 o'c high with wider FOV.  A 16:9 monitor might have great Left/Right FOV but, looking up at an angle greater than 35 - 45 degrees really shows the limitations of the TiR rig setup in a game where that particular view angle is essential.  In VR you just look up at natural speed.  In TrackIR extra 'amplification' to the range of head motion is kind of needed to work ideally. Anybody who's ever used over-sensitive TiR settings will tell you it's not fun or easy.  Getting the whole thing adjusted properly is also a bit of a chore.

 

As far as ZOOM goes, if it's comparable and mostly close to equivalent in both head control modes, then I'm all for it.  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, =AVG77=Mobile_BBQ said:

 

I would set the camera to only rotate left/right to about 160 degrees but, I'm not sure if it will effect the camera turn speed or how to adjust it better for my play style.  Ideally, If I turn my head right, I would want to see the rudder at the right edge of the screen and no further.  Turning left would show the rudder at the left edge of the screen and no further. 

Again, DCS does a better job of the head turn mechanic. It’s a natural over the shoulder view that’s both more realistic and easier. And it stops, you can’t rotate 190d

1 hour ago, =AVG77=Mobile_BBQ said:

 

One thing that VR users have over flat-screeners is the ability to look at 12 o'c high with wider FOV.  A 16:9 monitor might have great Left/Right FOV but, looking up at an angle greater than 35 - 45 degrees really shows the limitations of the TiR rig setup in a game where that particular view angle is essential.  In VR you just look up at natural speed.  In TrackIR extra 'amplification' to the range of head motion is kind of needed to work ideally. Anybody who's ever used over-sensitive TiR settings will tell you it's not fun or easy.  Getting the whole thing adjusted properly is also a bit of a chore.

It’s a fairly easy adjustment to get TrackIR to look up without losing the tracking. You shouldn’t want that axis to be over sensitive, IRL you can only look up about 90d. Some games like old DCS you could look up until you were looking backward at your tail. 

The default for the device seems to assume a normal sized screen and position. IL-2 and RoF are the best games I’ve used it with as they didn’t require and adjustments to work well. 

Edited by SharpeXB

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)
On 7/19/2019 at 7:54 PM, RedKestrel said:

This is just getting silly now. You have to think about how things would look if you were sitting in a cockpit. Both viewing options (monitor and VR) currently have tradeoffs to try and render the real world. Zoom is required for different reasons.

What VR users are doing is roughly the same as having a screen right up against their eyeballs, seeing things in a 1:1 ratio. Right? So, for example, your gunsight in the game cockpit is the same apparent size as the gunsight in a real plane. If you zoom in in VR view, you see a gunsight that is twice the size of the real one. In terms of looking at planes, you then see the plane at twice the size that it would be in real life. If the plane is 5 km away, it will appear to be about the same size as a plane 5km away would be in real life. However, due to the low resolution of current headsets, the object you see is the right size but is indistinct, so it is harder to identify. If you zoom in, the limited number of pixels used to ID the target are increased, giving you more detail (as the object is now twice the size it would appear in real life). Zoom, in this case, compensates for reduced resolution found in VR. 

On a 2D monitor, when sitting in the cockpit in-game, the gunsight appears to me to be a small fraction of the size of the real life version, if I was sitting in a real cockpit. This is because my field of view for a given resolution is much wider than it would be in real life, so I can look at a useful amount of area on a reduced size screen. If I look at a plane that is 5km away, it appears much smaller to me than if I was sitting in a real plane looking out the canopy at a real aircraft 5 km away. this makes it difficult to identify the object. If I zoom in, however, the apparent size of the aircraft on my screen approaches the size the aircraft would appear to me in the same situation IRL. The resolution, at this zoom, is quite sharp (still not as good as real life though) and the apparent size is correct, so now IDing the target is much easier. Zoom, in this case, compensates for the reduced object size that happens on a monitor.

If the relative size of objects on my monitor matched up 1:1 with Real Life, my monitor would show a big gunsight and that's it. The resolution would be better than the same view in VR, but that's because my computer and monitor only has to render a small fraction of the game's possible viewpoint. A bigger monitor basically duplicates the effect of VR - at the unzoomed view, objects are closer to what their size would be in real life, so on a huge monitor the zoom would make objects somewhat larger than they would be IRL. But there's a limit to 2D monitor size before you get serious distortion of the image at the edges, so a bigger screen has diminishing returns past a certain point. If VR ever approaches the resolution we see on good monitors today, zoom will become like binoculars. 

TL:DR; in VR, zoom is like looking through binoculars with bad vision - one day, it may be like looking through binoculars with good vision. On a monitor, zoom increases the size of objects to close to their normal size as it would be if we were sitting in a real life cockpit like you (nearly) do in VR. 

 

Again:

 

Today VR is generally less clear than monitors still VR has less zoom capability by default. Therefore ID'ing is much harder by default. Why is this so hard to accept?

 

And no one wants to reduce, bring down or change anything for 2d. Only a more developed zoom would be nice for VR for competitive MP. That's all. Really.

 

Personally I don't even need that as I use the migoto mod. Would be nice but I don't need it.

 

The only reason I stood into the argument was that I tried to correct false claims. I shouldn't have done that.

Edited by HunDread
  • Upvote 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm all in for stronger zoom levels for VR as identifying at longer ranges is a pain. I don't mind if VR users get snap views too. I have Rift but I'm mainly flying in 2d. I don't use snap views and I've limited my head rotation a bit so it is a bit less than 180 degrees. Why? Because I find it more pleasant for my preferences. And that's what I consider important. That people can set up the game for their liking.

 

One thing that I consider a major advantage in VR is that cockpit frame won't obscure your view like in 2d. When the plane you're looking at gets behind cockpit frame, the view is blocked for one eye but not for the other eye. So you you don't really loose the plane from your sight like you would with monitor. Something that I didn't realize before flying with VR.

  • Upvote 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 7/20/2019 at 10:22 PM, Remontti said:

One thing that I consider a major advantage in VR is that cockpit frame won't obscure your view like in 2d. When the plane you're looking at gets behind cockpit frame, the view is blocked for one eye but not for the other eye. So you you don't really loose the plane from your sight like you would with monitor. Something that I didn't realize before flying with VR.

 

Very interesting, hadn't thought of that, another plus for VR.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 7/20/2019 at 8:35 AM, SharpeXB said:

Actually the “owl neck” motion in IL-2 makes looking behind you more difficult compared to DCS which has a realistic head turn. With the 180 you have to look back and lean otherwise you’re looking straight at your headrest, whereas in DCS you just look back and automatically see over your shoulder. It’s better. 

 

I believe you can configure the head tracking software to add a Y-translation with your turn, avoiding the result of looking straight back into the headrest. But it depends on which tracker/software combo you're using. Sounds like DCS has it built into their sim.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 7/20/2019 at 10:36 PM, HunDread said:

Again:

 

Today VR is generally less clear than monitors still VR has less zoom capability by default. Therefore ID'ing is much harder by default. Why is this so hard to accept?

 

And no one wants to reduce, bring down or change anything for 2d. Only a more developed zoom would be nice for VR for competitive MP. That's all. Really.

 

Personally I don't even need that as I use the migoto mod. Would be nice but I don't need it.

 

The only reason I stood into the argument was that I tried to correct false claims. I shouldn't have done that.

 

Well said HunDread. You hit the point.

  • Upvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 7/20/2019 at 10:36 PM, HunDread said:

 

Again:

 

Today VR is generally less clear than monitors still VR has less zoom capability by default. Therefore ID'ing is much harder by default. Why is this so hard to accept?

 

And no one wants to reduce, bring down or change anything for 2d. Only a more developed zoom would be nice for VR for competitive MP. That's all. Really.

 

Personally I don't even need that as I use the migoto mod. Would be nice but I don't need it.

 

The only reason I stood into the argument was that I tried to correct false claims. I shouldn't have done that.

+1 and + add snap views for VR too please😎

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)

The issues here is some of the reasons I stayed out of the VR hype for a long while. 

Being borrowing a Rift for longer periods I miss the times I enjoyed it. I personally do not take into account the immersion bit, because having a pit and not able to see it take away some immersion too. 

But some of the planes in GB give a real taste of aerodynamic, flying those planes in VR is simply spectacular. I recommend those not tried VR with the Huey in DCS to do so. But learn to fly it first in 2 d. I was a bit reckless and got motion sick in a split second.  

One got to take good with the bad, VR is a compromise.

But I really do not get why one cannot zoom properly? Is it a choice? Or is it not possible. 

 

Edited by LuseKofte

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, LuseKofte said:

 

But I really do not get why one cannot zoom properly? Is it a choice? Or is it not possible.

 

 

It is not possible. VR has a different type of zoom on a different key than 2D. It is a toggle zoom with less "magnification" than the 2D zoom. The 2D zoom does not work in VR.

 

EDIT: I see in the other thread that you are getting into VR now. The above should not discourage you as proper zoom for VR is available in the 3dmigoto mod (if you are into MP) 

Edited by HunDread
  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)

I used to fly with TIR until 4 months ago when I switched to VR. Yes VR is a lot more emersive but the loss of situational awareness was severe. Even with a Pimax that promises a wider field of view, it was hard to scan an area or identify friend or foe in time. 3dMigoto is not the final solution. Yes it zooms but it simply increases the existing picture, while the TIR zoom increses also the details and makes it possible to discover planes you don't see in normal view.
With that and the generally lower resolution you are at an disadvantage especially in Multiplayer. There are also other set backs but these result from the VR technics and should not influence here. It is something you must accept or switch back to TIR (i.e. when you move your head at certain points moving targets simply disappear, I discovered this especially when I started with a friend on a runway where his plane in the peripherie simply vanished and just reappeared a moment later when he got out of this angle.But as said you must accept this as a setback.)
But really disturbing in the lack of a proper zoom in VR. The simple 2x zoom is not enough compared to the TIR zoom. So at least a 5x zoom should be available. The 10x zoom as fixed only for the crosshairs would be fine, also for TIR, not for general scanning. You can't scan your environment with binoculars in a plane either.
About the check 6 snap view I would rather prefer to have it not on either, VR and TIR, or at least not in the realistic option of the game. It should be clickable available only for normal or easy configs.
So this is just my opinion about this issues. It is definitly not carved in stone. Just my penny to the Topic.

Edited by PikAs_53
  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, PikAs_53 said:

3dMigoto is not the final solution. Yes it zooms but it simply increases the existing picture, while the TIR zoom increses also the details and makes it possible to discover planes you don't see in normal view.

 

This is true and has not been considered yet. When searching for ground targets I often use the default zoom to get the objects rendered THEN use the migoto zoom to see them better. With the migoto you cannot zoom on anything that is not already rendered without zoom. One more disadvantage of the less capable default VR zoom.  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)

Way I see it, if you pick VR you know exactly what you`re getting. You`ll have more immersion, but you also have the downsides they had in reality: You physically must turn to see things, etc.

 

It seems wrong to me to then advocate that TrackIR users (of which I was one) should now be limited for VR user`s comfort.  I am a VR user. I knew the advantage Trackir users would have, but also their disadvantages. Indeed VR has better depth perception which I find makes it easier to spor enemies low over trees and for shooting solutions, though the difference in shooting is not huge.

 

One thing I will say is Trackir users DO have the advantage in resolution, even without zooming, which most VR user`s do not have. Yet. I play mostly Single Player and here the AI isn`t as canny as men, so it`s no real disadvantage.

 

Two solutions I see as passable...

 

Solution 1: Have dedicated VR sessions.

As far as I know the game cannot yet differentiate between VR and Trackir users, but maybe the Devs could Code it in?

 

Solution 2: Pop in your own trackir. Yes you lose VR, but now you`re on a level playing ground.

Edited by seafireliv

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The in game zoom for 2d does not enable the rendering of planes any further than normal, 10km is the bubble, zoom or no zoom, ground objects are a different story.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minutes ago, JgonRedcorn said:

The in game zoom for 2d does not enable the rendering of planes any further than normal

 

I might be making this up but I feel that it changes the LOD of the planes though if they are close to the LOD transition point. I'll have to retest. Definitely affects ground rendering as you call out though.

 

I also use ingame zoom + 3x migoto combined into one button.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Full disclosure - I am a VR user (Samsung Odyssey+), but haven't been using it very long so take what I say with a grain of salt. I absolutely love the immersion and I think that my gunnery has improved since I started using VR. That said, the neck strain can be a problem, particularly if you are an aging human that has neck problems.

 

What I would like to see changed for VR:

I would love to see "curves" for head movement in VR similar to what can be done with TrackIR. It doesn't need to be much, either. I love the immersion and looking all around but to be honest looking a FULL 180 degrees behind me while still holding my controls isn't my favorite thing in the world. I am currently using the 20 degree left/right view (courtesy of lefuneste's awesome 3dmigoto mod) which does the trick for now - only issue is that I get some weird artifacts like shadows that aren't there and distortion on the edges of the viewable area. 

 

What I would like to see changed for 2D:

Nothing. 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, TWC_Creep said:

I would love to see "curves" for head movement in VR similar to what can be done with TrackIR.

That would make you barf! 🤢

  • Upvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)

Curves for VR. I call BS. Plenty of things the Devs have on their plate than chasing ever changing wishes of anyone. If someone needs curves use TrackIr. Been using Rift CV1 for two years and dont use mods either - play online just fine. Suggest practice. 

 

All this kind of reminds me of the commercials where people had a "easy" button to press everytime they felt the need for something to be easier. Sounds like some need their Easy button maybe ought to order two easy buttons.

 

Options are like backsides we all have one and it smells bad to most everyone else - mine included.

Edited by HansBlitz
Left out word

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Glad to hear that you don't have any mobility issues Hans. Take care.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)

I have mobility issues also, but I do prefer one to one movement and would not want it any other way.

That is not to say though I would object to it being an "option" for those that want/need it. I would imagine one would need a strong stomach for that though.

I would also note though I only fly SP.

Edited by dburne

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

One of our squad mates ran a PSVR with slightly more than 1:1 movement and it wasn’t a barf-fest for him. Not sure there’s that option for any headset other than a PSVR though. I’d maybe enable a +20 degrees option personally. I guess that’s about 1:1.11 ratio.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I understand why fighter pilots are young, for one, their necks are more limber (as with all the other joints). I'm past the age of qualifying for flight school, by a few decades, AND I use VR and can't get enough of it. Even though I have a hard time turning my head much past 90 degrees, (age and a disability). For this reason I would like to see a reasonable (Rea-son-able) snap view for VR users such as myself, call it an youthful tonic. Perhaps just 120 or so degrees, can't see through some of the headrests anyway.

 But I have founds a solution until snap views for VR users come along, (snap views were some of the first options and continue to be so for flightsims so why not?). I fly bombers for the most part and let the guy in the back seat watch my 6.

These games are going to have to address the issues of  the Geritol crowd since we seem to be an aging group for the most part.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

×
×
  • Create New...