Jump to content
Pikas_62

Non-existent balance between VR users and TrackIR users on online server

Recommended Posts

Posted (edited)

By using VR, the immersion in the game is simply fantastic, but compared to TrackIR users, VR users have two major drawbacks that leverage the balance of gaming on online servers:

 

  1. For me the major disadvantage VR users have when spotting and identifying targets. While TrackIR users can easily scan every corner of the sky and the ground with the help of a stepless zoom function with a minimum head movement, VR users physically have to move their heads in real life and only have a very weak zoom function.
  2. For Check-Six, TrackIR users can quickly check the 6 o'clock position with a minimum head movement and their unrealistic zoom function. VR users, on the other hand, have to physically move their head very far to one side (depending on the respective FoV of the HMD). The time needed is longer and is much more exhausting and they have only their weak VR zoom function.

 

Addressed to the developers: From my point of view there are two possibilities to establish the balance between TrackIR and VR users in online matches:

 

  • You can enhance the VR zoom function on the level, which is possible with the use of TrackIR, and give VR users a snap-view function (my prefered solution!!!), or
  • Restrict TrackIR users to the possibilities of VR users by limiting the zoom function and adjusting the viewing angles to the normal human level (not my prefered solution!)

 

Edited to emphasize my preferences.

Edited by Pikas_62
  • Haha 4
  • Confused 2
  • Upvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)

Hi Pikas_62,

 

VR adds an amazing  level of immersion to this game!

 

I'm a longtime VR (htc Vive) user. I play only online multiplayer servers, mainly Wings of Liberty and Combat Box depending on server population.

I think you need to get past this need for 'balance' between TrackIr and VR  users online, as it will only spoiling your enjoyment of the game. If you are getting shot down i can assure you it will have more to do with your own skills and experience than it will anything else. However i do agree with you on the need for better VR zoom and snap view options needing to be integrated.

 

Currently you can have both the customisable zoom and snap view options via a mod which works on all MP servers - 

 

I hope this mod helps you until the game has these features integrated (hopefully one day).

 

Good luck with your flying!

 

edit: Btw VR users have an advantage with initial dot spotting at longranges, however ID'ing a plane is terrible until very close. The above mod will solve the ID'ing issues for you though! 

Edited by Wraithzlt
'caus
  • Thanks 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hallo Wraithzlt. Thx for your reply and helpful hints. I´m a longtime VR user also (Rift, O, O+, Pimax 5k+ and now the Index). I´m using also lefuestes zoom mod and  I agree with you 100%. I only whanted to motivate the Devs to accelerate the integration of the enhanced VR zoom and maybe snap view 😉.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Limiting TrackIR in any way is not going to happen. It would start a rebellion. Especially if it were to be justified with the need to align it to VR users.

 

Limiting 2D zoom would not make sense imo. Enhancing VR zoom would be the way to go. I know about 3Dmigoto (I use it and appreciate it very much and wouldn't fly IL-2 again if it stopped working) but still...

  • Upvote 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

When you say "unrealistic" do you mean TrackIR users benefit of excessive zoom when compared with reality? Well, assuming infinite detail, those with big screens have big zooms. Forget TrackIR then, we need to limit screen size. Etc.

 

No way to go.

  • Upvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
11 minutes ago, J2_Bidu said:

When you say "unrealistic" do you mean TrackIR users benefit of excessive zoom when compared with reality? Well, assuming infinite detail, those with big screens have big zooms. Forget TrackIR then, we need to limit screen size. Etc.

 

No way to go.

 

Zoom has nothing to do with TrackIR. Those who don't have TrackIR has the same zoom as those who have. The difference is 2D zoom and VR zoom.

 

What's unrealistic is the ability to check six with a 5 cm head movement in half a second. But this doesn't really bug me as long as I can check my 6 which I can do just fine with a swivel chair.

 

But I'm not sure if it's possible for TrackIR users to bind a key to 180 degree snap view and check six in even less than half a second. That would bug me a bit. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)

What I mean with scanning can exatly be seen in the Youtube video below. This is only possible with TrackIR.

 

 

Edited by Pikas_62

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I support the OP’s to possible imbalance suggestions 100%.

 

Snap view to the rear for VR users or lose the 6 view for all.  Something needs to be implemented. 3D Migoto mod is fantastic but its not going to fix that 6 view issue.

 

(I’m aware of the VR six check fix. Good if you want to drain a pair of batteries every day, not so good otherwise)

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hey OP: Exactly my thoughts.
There are some solutions to the problem. The first 2 will not work i believe.

1. Make VR only servers or TIR only servers (Will not work since there are yet too few VR users to sustain viable playernumbers on their own)

2. As you suggested Limit TIR-Users headmovement to realistic degrees. (Will also not work because of the Rebellion that going to happen as HunDread mentioned)

 

3. And this is whats actually the right way to go IMHO: Give VR players the same abilities that TIRers have namely:

- Add proper Zoomfunction with adjustable zoomstages. Also add adjustable stabilisation and anti nausea goggle as ingame option so we dont need to mod the game first.

- Add Snap views for VR (This should be a rather easy one). This way we VRers could set up Check six angles without breaking our necks.

 

 

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Why not limit joysticks so people who fly with a mouse are not at a disadvantage?

 

Just because you chose to fly with VR doesn't mean you have to drag everyone else down to your level. 

  • Confused 1
  • Upvote 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

That is a perilous road to try and go down and will eventually end up in heated debate.

 

VR users should enjoy what they have for what it brings, same with monitor users, Track IR users , and not worry about one over the other.

  • Like 3
  • Upvote 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I am as VR player pretty suddisfied with game. I wish only better check 6 vr solution, the rest is already done with 3dMigoto. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)
17 minutes ago, dburne said:

That is a perilous road to try and go down and will eventually end up in heated debate.

 

VR users should enjoy what they have for what it brings, same with monitor users, Track IR users , and not worry about one over the other.

 

Amen to that.

 

May we all have fun and enjoy our gaming experiences. 😃

 

Opinion... If VR ever gives us an advantage (any advantage) over non VR pilots or tankers, then VR will dominate the marketplace. Immersion alone won't do it.

Edited by Thad

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)
35 minutes ago, buck1ea said:

Why not limit joysticks so people who fly with a mouse are not at a disadvantage?

 

Just because you chose to fly with VR doesn't mean you have to drag everyone else down to your level. 

Actually you should properly read what has been suggested.
Noone actually wants to nerve TIRers. At least I dont.
Just want to get the tools to be as competitive.
No need for you to try and be provokative.

 

EDIT: In a competetive game like this it must be allowed to talk about how to make things fair for everyone.

Edited by Winger
Additional thoughts on the matter.
  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 minutes ago, Winger said:

EDIT: In a competetive game like this it must be allowed to talk about how to make things fair for everyone.

 

Considering that logic... all of the games craft should have the exact same flight model or capabilities. That way, the skills of the pilot alone would be the determining factor. That is not likely to happen and I don't think it is what we really want.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Or, you could just even it up and buy all of us TiR users new VR sets. Nice ones too!  

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

3 minutes ago, Thad said:

 

Considering that logic... all of the games craft should have the exact same flight model or capabilities. That way, the skills of the pilot alone would be the determining factor. That is not likely to happen and I don't think it is what we really want.

Thats not what i meant. It should still be down to the pilots skill. But allowing one player to look at the aircrafts 6 oclock in a way that was not possible in real life and not the other is not a fair game in my opinion.
In the end its down to the developers. And if you peoperly fly in a team it doesnt matter anyways.
I really dont want to get involved in a shitstorm here:) for that i spend way to little time on my PC anyways.

1 minute ago, =AVG77=Mobile_BBQ said:

Or, you could just even it up and buy all of us TiR users new VR sets. Nice ones too!  

If I was just rich as hell i would!🤗

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Does VR not give advantages that trackir does not? 

 

Better depth perception which I understand makes gunnery and landing etc. better/easier

 

Slippery slope here.. 😎 

 

Cheers, Dakpilot 

  • Like 1
  • Upvote 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)
9 minutes ago, Dakpilot said:

Does VR not give advantages that trackir does not? 

 

Better depth perception which I understand makes gunnery and landing etc. better/easier

 

Slippery slope here.. 😎 

 

Cheers, Dakpilot 

Thats actually an argument😎
At some point VR will be so established in the gaming community that anyone will have a HMD. And then the question actually is none anymore.
I hope VR will soon be so cheap that every flightsimmer will be able to get to experience it. Its just so much cooler to fly and feel as if youre actually sitting REALLY in there!
 

*S!* - everyone! 🤗

Edited by Winger

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, II./JG77_motoadve said:

Checking six in VR is very realistic, does not need to be changed.

 

It is not. I can turn and see 6 with edge of my screen, but with migoto zoom that edge of the screen is lost again. In VR without migoto zoom just view is useless.

@ developers; please implemet "snap turn view", it exist now in stam vr, oculus, etc., just add it to game as bindable key.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)
12 hours ago, buck1ea said:

Just because you chose to fly with VR doesn't mean you have to drag everyone else down to your level. 

This!

Nobody is forcing you VR players to use VR. You wanted reality you got it!

 

When you’re comparing zoom levels you realize VR is already “zoomed in” to life sized whereas a desktop monitor is rather small, on that size screen zoomed-in is more like life size. 

 

Nobody should be making game game altering decisions based upon the specs of these 1st gen headsets. They’ll improve their resolution in time and won’t need a zoom view. 

15 hours ago, Pikas_62 said:

What I mean with scanning can exatly be seen in the Youtube video below. This is only possible with TrackIR.

Actually you can look around in the game like that with any view system. Mouse or snap views would do similar. TrackIR is of course the best. 

Edited by SharpeXB
  • Like 1
  • Upvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, SharpeXB said:

When you’re comparing zoom levels you realize VR is already “zoomed in” to life sized whereas a desktop monitor is rather small, on that size screen zoomed-in is more like life size. 

 

Nobody should be making game game altering decisions based upon the specs of these 1st gen headsets. They’ll improve their resolution in time and won’t need a zoom view. 

 

VR has max 2x toggle zoom. 2D has at least 5x (maybe more) slider zoom. This has nothing to do with resolution.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
16 hours ago, II./JG77_motoadve said:

Checking six in VR is very realistic, does not need to be changed.

 

 

Checking six in current IL2 VR is realistic if you have a sweet spot covering 100% of a 180 °Fov. That's not the case for any HMD. So something should be done to cope with limited Fov or bluriness of view outside sweet spot.

5 hours ago, SharpeXB said:

 They’ll improve their resolution in time and won’t need a zoom view. 

We are not talking about future but for now. It will not be possible to have something giving the same resolution as in IRL before years (if it would be possible, regarding the cost of hardware to handle so much pixels). Zooming will be needed for years, in order to be able so understand what is drawn outside of your cockpit. My understanding is that we have in VR more or less the same constraints than in 2D, except that only a 2x zoom is provided in VR instead of a 10X and that checking six in 2D in IL2 is cheating, your head can do a 180° turn.

I assumed that zoom limitation is caused by general consideration regarding gaming in VR, because we have the same situation in DCS. They just forgot that we are playing seated.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, HunDread said:

 

VR has max 2x toggle zoom. 2D has at least 5x (maybe more) slider zoom. This has nothing to do with resolution.

 

And max zoom does not restrict how big you see something. I can have a gigantic screen and see stuff much bigger with no zoom than someone with max zoom sitting far away from a little monitor.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)

I do not quite understand the excitement here. All I have suggested is that VR user get an improved zoom function and possibly a snapview function. That should be relatively easy to implement by the developers. The advantage that VR users have more depth is in my opinion balanced that 2D users spot very easily without having to twist their necks. Again, I'm not at all for limiting 2D users, I just wanted to show the devs what options exist in my view.

 

10 minutes ago, J2_Bidu said:

And max zoom does not restrict how big you see something. I can have a gigantic screen and see stuff much bigger with no zoom than someone with max zoom sitting far away from a little monitor. 

 

Do you already have experience in VR? For me it is extremely difficult to distinguish friend and foe without higher zoom levels in VR.

Edited by Pikas_62
  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
55 minutes ago, Pikas_62 said:

I do not quite understand the excitement here. All I have suggested is that VR user get an improved zoom function and possibly a snapview function. That should be relatively easy to implement by the developers. The advantage that VR users have more depth is in my opinion balanced that 2D users spot very easily without having to twist their necks. Again, I'm not at all for limiting 2D users, I just wanted to show the devs what options exist in my view.

I think and hope that the devs have something like this in the works already. I quess theyre just as enthusiastic about VR as everyone else that tried it only once.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Pikas_62 said:

Do you already have experience in VR? For me it is extremely difficult to distinguish friend and foe without higher zoom levels in VR.

 

What I said was not restricted to VR.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'd prefer a more realistic approach in that matter...no zoom for everyone...If you want to Identify an aircraft go closer, with all the risks you have to take, like in real life. Saburo Sakai for example, almost get himself killed beacause he misidentified a formation SBD Dauntlesses. In my opinion is a big aspect of the "airwarfair game" and the unrealistic zoom spoils it for me. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)
17 minutes ago, Apanos9 said:

I'd prefer a more realistic approach in that matter...no zoom for everyone...If you want to Identify an aircraft go closer, with all the risks you have to take, like in real life. Saburo Sakai for example, almost get himself killed beacause he misidentified a formation SBD Dauntlesses. In my opinion is a big aspect of the "airwarfair game" and the unrealistic zoom spoils it for me.  

 

I understand your point. But in reality you can just see better and have a much better situational awaireness in a real cockpit. Zoom, etc. are just to compensate for that a bit. I think it's necessary - especially in VR where the resolutions are still much lower.

Edited by Pikas_62
  • Upvote 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 hours ago, HunDread said:

 

VR has max 2x toggle zoom. 2D has at least 5x (maybe more) slider zoom. This has nothing to do with resolution.

Actually needing a zoom view has as much to do with resolution as FOV. Since real eyesight has much more acuity and your display has a fixed number if pixels, the only way to add resolution is to enlarge the image. If VR headsets had 20/20 equivalent resolution there would be no need for a VR zoom. The only reason VR needs a zoom view is to make up for the low resolution. In terms of perceived size the 2x zoom you see in a HMD is about equal to the 5x seen on a monitor. What you’re seeing in VR is huge compared to a small monitor. 

5 hours ago, lefuneste said:

So something should be done to cope with limited Fov or bluriness of view outside sweet spot.

Yes but that’s all in the hands of the headset manufacturers not game developers

You all are the early adopters of this tech. What else did you expect? The resolution sucks. Deal with it or give it up. Don’t ask for the game to be crippled down to your level. That’s not going to happen. 

2 hours ago, Pikas_62 said:

 All I have suggested is that VR user get an improved zoom function and possibly a snapview function.

Zoom view and snap views in VR. I can’t imagine how that isn’t 🤢🤮

  • Sad 1
  • Upvote 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)
10 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

What you’re seeing in VR is huge compared to a small monitor. 

 

But with a low resolution, so you see a huge bunch of pixel, not a huge plane.

Edited by lefuneste

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 7/17/2019 at 4:00 AM, Pikas_62 said:

Hallo Wraithzlt. Thx for your reply and helpful hints. I´m a longtime VR user also (Rift, O, O+, Pimax 5k+ and now the Index). I´m using also lefuestes zoom mod and  I agree with you 100%. I only whanted to motivate the Devs to accelerate the integration of the enhanced VR zoom and maybe snap view 😉.

Just curious, I had a Rift and now have a O+. How does the O+ compare to the Pimax and the Index? Im pretty happy with the O+. But are the others worth the upgrade? I think the Pimax and the Index are around $500 more than the O+?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, CDRSEABEE said:

Just curious, I had a Rift and now have a O+. How does the O+ compare to the Pimax and the Index? Im pretty happy with the O+. But are the others worth the upgrade? I think the Pimax and the Index are around $500 more than the O+?

 

The Index is far from being twice as good as the O and O+. I sold both because I had problems distinguishing between friend and foe as fast as needed online, especially with the O+. A good comparison between the Index and the Pimax 5k+ can be found in chiliwilli69's wolderful thread.

https://forum.il2sturmovik.com/topic/52371-valve-index-vs-pimax5k-which-one-to-pick-through-lens-pictures/

 

1 hour ago, lefuneste said:

But with a low resolution, so you see a huge bunch of pixel, not a huge plane.

 

Exactly 👍!

Edited by Pikas_62

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, lefuneste said:

 

But with a low resolution, so you see a huge bunch of pixel, not a huge plane.

That’s a deficiency of the headset, not the game. VR just isn’t ready for flight sims in that regard. If you’re going to be an early adopter it’s something you just have to live with. 

  • Upvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

 

Balance is a theoretical concept that is impossible to put into place.  You'd have to equalise reaction times, flight/CFM knowledge, spatial awareness, time in sim, pc hardware and software, and every other variable you can think of.

 

Yes it is annoying in VR to swoop down on what you think is a blind spot only for the enemy to start twisting and turning, but maybe they have been warned.  The alternative is we all go to 2D and for me that isn't happening.

 

VR is amazing but a lack of competitiveness is a small price to pay,

 

von Tom

 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, SharpeXB said:

Actually needing a zoom view has as much to do with resolution as FOV. Since real eyesight has much more acuity and your display has a fixed number if pixels, the only way to add resolution is to enlarge the image. If VR headsets had 20/20 equivalent resolution there would be no need for a VR zoom. The only reason VR needs a zoom view is to make up for the low resolution. In terms of perceived size the 2x zoom you see in a HMD is about equal to the 5x seen on a monitor. What you’re seeing in VR is huge compared to a small monitor. 

 

Not true, sorry. The only question is how much bigger an object is with full zoom than without zoom. For VR it is 2x size at best, in 2D it is much more than that. How big the screen around the object you are looking at does not matter a bit in this regard. Even if VR had more perceived resolution than 4k monitors (very far from it) it would still be a disadvantage to have the kind of zoom VR has now.

 

Of course when we get to the point that VR+IL-2 has the same visuals as real life (very long time or I'm not sure if we ever get there) this discussion will not make any sense but we are far from it.  

 

 

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
16 minutes ago, HunDread said:

For VR it is 2x size at best, in 2D it is much more than that. How big the screen around the object you are looking at does not matter a bit in this regard.

All this would depend on the size of the monitor and how far you are from it. Unless you want that regulated, which is impossible, then there is no way to make players equal in this regard. If a player is using a 22-24” monitor, their fully zoomed in view is about life sized like you see in VR

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, SharpeXB said:

All this would depend on the size of the monitor and how far you are from it. Unless you want that regulated, which is impossible, then there is no way to make players equal in this regard. If a player is using a 22-24” monitor, their fully zoomed in view is about life sized like you see in VR

 

It doesn't depend on anything.

 

2x is 2x larger than 1x

5x is 5x larger than 1x

10x is 10x larger than 1x 

 

1x is the size of an object without zoom on anyone's own system and screen.

 

This is true under any circumstances.

Edited by HunDread

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, HunDread said:

 

It doesn't depend on anything.

 

2x is 2x larger than 1x

5x is 5x larger than 1x

10x is 10x larger than 1x 

 

1x is the size of an object without zoom on anyone's own system and screen.

 

This is true under any circumstances.

And sitting half as close to your screen makes everything 2x bigger

And a 50” screen is 2x the size of a 24” screen. 

 

No game will ever have the kind of “balance” you’re trying to figure out so you might as well forget it. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

×
×
  • Create New...