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Gotta say IL2 is nice in VR...but get the right kind of VR!

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Posted (edited)
10 hours ago, =475FG=DAWGER said:

My first hop I did a low level split S in DCS and got the exact same feeling in the pit of my stomach that such a maneuver would generate in a real aircraft. Hooked ever since.

 

This is something that people without extensive flying experience in the real world don't quite get in VR. I find guys who did it for real find VR to be amazing. Guys who don't have the benefit of that comparison are not nearly as impressed with VR.

 

I now have 2 CV1's gathering dust and a Rift S I use every day and I still haven't equaled the $1500 I wanted to drop on a 4K monitor. My machine is still hooked up to the same 1080p TV.

 

The bottom line is that VR is CHEAPER than top of the line 4K if you choose one or the other. You need the same machine for either. A VR HMD is a relatively small percentage of the total outlay for a modern, high power gaming rig.

I want to emphasize the point about VR value proposition... I recently rec'd a Rift S as a gift and had acquired a new rig that would allow a steady 80 frames on HIGH (i5 9600k and a 2060)... however, it does appear that VR can be quite a subjective experience, based on the individual.

 

I went up for a MP spin in a spit and managed to down a 109; it was most certainly the most intense and stomach-turning IL-2 dogfight I've had. SO, props for VR in this regard. However, even after several weeks, I could not shake the VR-sickness, which continued to stay with me for several days after my last flight.

 

I found this interesting, because I am extremely resistant to actual motion-sickness, both physically in the air, as well as from 2d-screen flying. The juxtaposition caught me quite unexpectedly. I ended up returning the Rift-S due to having a wide IPD (close to 70). I wonder if that has anything to do with it.

I absolutely love the idea of VR, but find IRL flying and 2d-sim flying more enjoyable and without the nausea. From the forums it seems my experience isn't that common, though. Either that, or there are a bunch of sick sim pilots all pretending they feel fine. :) 

Edited by kurtj
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5 hours ago, kurtj said:

there are a bunch of sick sim pilots all pretending they feel fine. :) 

 

You can train yourself out of the motion sickness, however you need to do it in games that aren't IL-2. Games with less first-person movement are easier on your vestibular system and will allow you to play for those long periods your brain needs while it gets used to the disconnection between your eyes and ears.

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I got Sturmovik for my friend for his bday, and I went to his house and played it on the Vive after being used to playing it on my Rift at home. The Vive was noticeably quite a bit worse. It's a lot blurrier and the scale and immersion seem a bit 'narrower' somehow.

VR with HOTAS and pedals makes Sturmovik absolute magic. And even with just a joystick and the not-as-good Vive my friend was blown away, and his brother immediately went out and bought the game too. They were loving it with VR and just an x-box controller! They're both VR developers and have made a driving sim that's out on Steam. Maybe one of them will appear on the forums now 😛 Hey guys, if you're reading. They seemed to agree that 'The Vive isn't actually that good' is the elephant in the VR room no one wants to talk about.

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S!

 

 Looks like Oculus Rift S and Valve Index are the strongest contenders according to that test. Vive had more blurriness in the image. I would like to hop into VR right now, but I guess I wait until end of the year if there are any new things coming up. If not then it will be a choice between Oculus or Valve.

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56 minutes ago, Talon_ said:

 

You can train yourself out of the motion sickness, however you need to do it in games that aren't IL-2. Games with less first-person movement are easier on your vestibular system and will allow you to play for those long periods your brain needs while it gets used to the disconnection between your eyes and ears.

 

Yeah. You learn to sort of focus on the front rim of the cockpit around the gunsight and use that as your 'horizon'. You very quickly get over the motion sickness (but it can be BAD those first two or three sessions). I get really motion sick on third person VR platformers but my brother-in-law loves platformers and he just blunt forced his way past the motion sickness by playing on and refusing to give in until he started to feel okay 😛 My first day in VR I had to lie down for about an hour because of the motion sickness (and I felt like my brain was rewiring my whole perception of three dimensions and reality for the first week), but I never get sick playing Sturmovik in VR now.

6 hours ago, kurtj said:

 

I found this interesting, because I am extremely resistant to actual motion-sickness, both physically in the air, as well as from 2d-screen flying. The juxtaposition caught me quite unexpectedly. I ended up returning the Rift-S due to having a wide IPD (close to 70). I wonder if that has anything to do with it.
 

 


The IPD thing would do it. I have the older Rift where you can change the IPD, but if it's off even a little I feel sick much more quickly, and sick in games I've gotten used to. The Rift S really feels like a 'placekeeper' because they've cut that vital feature.

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23 hours ago, Talon_ said:

 

Rift S is cheaper than a new phone or TV, about the same price as two decent monitors which should really be the standard for any gaming PC. Same price as IL-2 BoM, BoS, BoK, BoBp and FC combined which I see you own.

 

 

My squad, Red Flight, run the Combat Box MP server and almost all of us fly in VR.

 

There's some argument to be made that VR makes you less competitive as you have to turn all the way around in your seat to check six and it can be harder to ID hostiles, however those of us who aren't into the IL-2 MLG scene much prefer the massively increased immersion and realism of sitting inside the plane in a 3D world over looking at our computer monitor like we were filling out a spreadsheet.

 

And for the detractors who say long range spotting and ID is impossible - this was my first sortie in the Rift S. Went up in multiplayer on KOTA and came back with 4 kills in 8 minutes.

 

 

You're deadly!

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Posted (edited)
4 hours ago, LLv34_Flanker said:

S!

 

 Looks like Oculus Rift S and Valve Index are the strongest contenders according to that test. Vive had more blurriness in the image. I would like to hop into VR right now, but I guess I wait until end of the year if there are any new things coming up. If not then it will be a choice between Oculus or Valve.

 

Nothing really due out that can compete with either headset this year. The Rift S is probably the way to go as the image quality is comparable and it exists in a well developed ecosystem, all at a significantly lower price point!

 

1 hour ago, FlyingNutcase said:

You're deadly!

 

Thanks! Hopefully moreso when the Allies get some faster planes 😅

 

Edited by Talon_
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On 7/10/2019 at 5:44 PM, Thad said:

Salutations VR advocates.

I have been interested in, watching and reading about, the VR experience and equipment for years. I was and still am (but less) reluctant to go VR.

 

Why? 

 

I am a graphics whore. I simply will not sacrifice great game visuals for VR. I was determined to wait until VR equipment improved in the visual presentation aspect. 

I do not regret that decision. VR equipment performance has improved and it will probably continue to improve.

My computer is almost five years old now. I will seriously consider going VR when I purchase a new computer.

Thanks for all of your insights and comments. :coffee:

 

 

Even though VR visuals are undoubtedly not in the same league as a quality monitor, the immersion of actually sitting within a cockpit environment more than makes up for that as your perception adapts and learns to accept the new 'real'. You'd be surprised just how bad glass in WW2 birds was but pilots still managed to spot bogeys at distance once they'd got combat savvy.

A good analogy I've give for VR vs monitor is that the former is having a night with your dream girl, the latter being watching it all from outside on a balcony...;)

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VR is not there yet ,for me. Get back to playing in monitor after few times trying play il2 in VR.  There are some games which are great and made especially for VR those would be not that great on flat screen.

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@kurtj It took me awhile and I still get a bit queasy, but not so bad anymore.  Oddly enough when I tried VR in Skyrim I felt like I was ready to toss.  IL2 never affected me quite that badly.

 

Small doses at first and a gradual buildup are the generally recommended solutions.  Limit first exposure  to QMB.  Fly the Ju52 for a tour of Kuban.  Fly scenarios that you don't feel compelled to complete at first.  Stop playing when it gets to be too much, ore preferably stop a little before then if you can feel it coming on.   I am at a point where I can fly for a couple of hours now.

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40 minutes ago, 307_Tomcat said:

VR is not there yet ,for me. Get back to playing in monitor after few times trying play il2 in VR.  There are some games which are great and made especially for VR those would be not that great on flat screen.

 

You've tried the latest generation?

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2 hours ago, Talon_ said:

 

You've tried the latest generation?

 

I think so, O+ .

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For those of you with the Rift S, how do you set it up for IL-2?

 

I got the Odyssey + a while ago to give VR a shot, and had to return it because of poor resolution/blurryness (which I put down to my glasses, and the protuding lenses in the Odyssey meant the glasses were touching the lenses, which is bad), and now I'm interested in trying the Rift S. 

 

So how is setup for the Rift S? You still need to use SteamVR, right? You fire that up and then run the sim?

 

Thank you.

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I haven't got the Rift S but several squadmates do and report no problems whatsoever.  

 

If you have a Rift or Rift S,  SteamVR brings a lot of unecessary junk with it to run the Vive.  Much, much better to use Open Composite;

 

https://gitlab.com/znixian/OpenOVR

 

Looking forward to replacing my Rift with either the S or the Reverb in the autumn:)

  

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18 hours ago, kurtj said:

 

I went up for a MP spin in a spit and managed to down a 109; it was most certainly the most intense and stomach-turning IL-2 dogfight I've had. SO, props for VR in this regard. However, even after several weeks, I could not shake the VR-sickness, which continued to stay with me for several days after my last flight.

 

 

i'm glad you've tried it, so you have a point of reference!  When (not IF 😄 ) you come back to VR get yourself a Bass Shaker and stick it under the seat. The physical micro vibrations do wonders for VR vertigo. Your mind doesn't receive any physical world feedback from the observed scenery, hence introducing the disassociated vertigo feeling.  One way to solve this is - get a bass shaker, it's a cheap and dirty solution. Another one - get a motion platform + bass shakers.  Point is it's solvable. 😄

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This!  VR is incomplete and just a little weird without tactile feedback.  Buttkicker adds a whole new dimension to flight sims and to even non-vr games.

 

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I just added the Valve Index to my simpit and the difference between it and the OG Vive is night and day. I can read ALL. OF. THE. GAUGES. I can look with my eyes, not just my head. I can check my six without contorting my entire body around. Finally I can fly in VR without any of the HUD turned on. Sure, it's not perfect and the blacks could be blacker, but I'm still grinning like a little kid just flying around, even when not in combat. 

 

However, I do fly real life sailplanes, so perhaps there's something to what @=475FG=DAWGER was saying about the joy of VR being somewhat related to IRL pilots recapturing the joy of actually being in the seat. 

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Just landed… (on a parachute :wacko:).

 

My two cents on VR... I got the BoX because of VR implementation. I got the O+ and am happy with how the VR works in BoX. I am having a close look on the HP Reverb and will go this direction (=higher resolution) once they iron out the issues or the competition matches its resolution. I am basically flying my sims only in VR now. Only once I tried the BoX on my 34'' flat screen but it felt… well… so flat and so limited in natural movements (never was a fan of TrackIR) that I exited not even one minute into the flight.

 

Night and day difference.

 

Honestly, I am always surprised how some simmers lose their temper when the VR topic comes up. It may be a niche market still, but it surely will only grow. I am also not buying if the sim does not come with VR support (or vorpX support)... and feel perfectly OK with that.

 

Milan

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17 hours ago, 71st_AH_Yankee_ said:

For those of you with the Rift S, how do you set it up for IL-2?

 

I got the Odyssey + a while ago to give VR a shot, and had to return it because of poor resolution/blurryness (which I put down to my glasses, and the protuding lenses in the Odyssey meant the glasses were touching the lenses, which is bad), and now I'm interested in trying the Rift S. 

 

So how is setup for the Rift S? You still need to use SteamVR, right? You fire that up and then run the sim?

 

Thank you.

 

Rift S is awesome with IL-2.

I have a fairly beefy system, and am able to run Ultra graphics and still get very good performance.

Image clarity is very good. I have not had an Odyssey+, but have seen reports from users that they felt the Rift S was an improvement in image clarity.

 

Setup for Rift S is very easy, takes about 10 min. 

IL-2 does not have native Oculus support, so either Steam VR or Open Composite. I switched to Open Composite a few weeks ago and much prefer it - leaner and meaner giving 

me better performance than was getting with Steam VR.

I am having a great time with IL-2 and the Rift S.

 

One note: Currently Rift S suffers from some brief white static flashes. In my case they are very brief, if I blink I miss it. And happen rarely for me, so not a deal breaker at all for me. Oculus supposedly is working on a fix via firmware but still investigating.

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Posted (edited)

Interesting discussion about the image quality between the O+ and the Rift S.

 

O+ user here, so no bias is assured ;)

 

I have also seen claims that the image quality of the Rift S stand pretty well against higher resolution HMDs (like the O+). Let's have a look at few numbers:

 

Resolution (per eye; horizontal x vertical):

O+:      1440x1600

Rift S: 1280x1440

 

Pixel count (per eye):

O+:      2 304 000

Rift S: 1 843 200

 

So this simple math suggests that the pixels are just not there in the Rift S. However...

… the O+ uses pentile arrangement (2 subpixels that make up one pixel) whereas the Rift S uses RGB arrangement (3 subpixels making up one pixel).

 

Something like this:

pentilevsRGB.png.d707598b58a86d29d48c86bffb306bfa.png

 

So… subpixel count (per eye):

O+:      4 608 000

Rift S: 5 529 600

 

This may explain why some users percieve the Rift S display as clearer than the O+ display. Fair enough. There is some good reasons for that.

Just for info: both Valve Index and HP Reverb also use RGB.

 

Steve Walton in one of his videos claims that on his system, the Rift S gives him similar picture quality as the HP Reverb. Well, as surprising as it may sound to some (like me), at least it shows how subjective the picture quality perception is.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o-ANPhZruzM

 

Milan

Edited by apollon01
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Very interesting. Indeed when I first looked at the numbers I wasn`t impressed, but the actual real world difference between, say the Vive and the Rift S is pretty obvious. Yes, it`s not monitor resolution by today`s standards, so don`t expect that (except maybe with the Pimax). But I believe that this might make all the difference once people try it and see for themselves.

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On 7/11/2019 at 11:57 PM, SausMasterjimminysausage said:

The IPD thing would do it. I have the older Rift where you can change the IPD, but if it's off even a little I feel sick much more quickly, and sick in games I've gotten used to. The Rift S really feels like a 'placekeeper' because they've cut that vital feature.

 

I believe you set the IPD in software for the Rift-S?  It doesn't have a wide range of settings, though.

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Anyone was able to compare lenovo explorer to the newer HMDs? I can't complain about image quality with 1.4 SS and in-game AA but I have no way to test out rift s for example. 

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On 7/10/2019 at 5:35 AM, Georgio said:

Over a year in with my CV1, still loving it and still can't see a worthwhile upgrade that would give me the same wow factor as the first 5 minutes in VR.

I know the Rift S would be a small upgrade, but I'll wait for that major upgrade...:rolleyes:

 

On 7/10/2019 at 10:12 AM, PatrickAWlson said:

I currently have theRift CV1.  For me the only realistic option money wise would be the Rift S and I have trouble justifying the expenditure.

 

For me, the Rift to Rift S upgrade was 100% worth it. I sold my old Rift and so the upgrade cost was $250 (Canadian). The improved clarity is very very worthwhile for better spotting and ID, and because of the reduction from 90hz to 80hz, you don't need a PC upgrade for it to work.

 

On 7/10/2019 at 10:07 AM, Wolferl_1791 said:

Same here. My 3 year old computer and 3 year old Vive can still give me wow moments. Unfortunately, by the time the proper next generation of HMDs will come out, my PC will be 3+x years old. I have no doubt that my next HMD will have at least 4 times the number of pixels, the problem is "will my future PC be able to handle that"? I sincerely doubt it. 

 

In theory, the true "gen 2" headsets will include both 4x the pixels (so maybe 4k x 4k per eye) *and* eye tracking + foveated rendering. Depending on who you ask, foveated rendering could reduce GPU requirements by 20x, so an older PC might actually be just fine with a "true" next gen headset. But of course this is pure speculation for now.

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On 7/12/2019 at 2:22 AM, kurtj said:

I want to emphasize the point about VR value proposition... I recently rec'd a Rift S as a gift and had acquired a new rig that would allow a steady 80 frames on HIGH (i5 9600k and a 2060)... however, it does appear that VR can be quite a subjective experience, based on the individual.

 

I went up for a MP spin in a spit and managed to down a 109; it was most certainly the most intense and stomach-turning IL-2 dogfight I've had. SO, props for VR in this regard. However, even after several weeks, I could not shake the VR-sickness, which continued to stay with me for several days after my last flight.

 

I found this interesting, because I am extremely resistant to actual motion-sickness, both physically in the air, as well as from 2d-screen flying. The juxtaposition caught me quite unexpectedly. I ended up returning the Rift-S due to having a wide IPD (close to 70). I wonder if that has anything to do with it.

I absolutely love the idea of VR, but find IRL flying and 2d-sim flying more enjoyable and without the nausea. From the forums it seems my experience isn't that common, though. Either that, or there are a bunch of sick sim pilots all pretending they feel fine. :) 

The nausea is something that happens to elder people. Apologize me if you are young 😁. You have to play until you get used to it and be able to use them. Just not start fighting in a dogfight, use them with a ju52, UV-2..

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On 7/12/2019 at 1:12 AM, DD_Arthur said:

Thats pretty impressive Karost:salute:

 

Is there a zoom function fir VR in DCS?  If so, I haven't found it yet:(

check this guide here

On 7/12/2019 at 1:22 AM, kurtj said:

I want to emphasize the point about VR value proposition... I recently rec'd a Rift S as a gift and had acquired a new rig that would allow a steady 80 frames on HIGH (i5 9600k and a 2060)... however, it does appear that VR can be quite a subjective experience, based on the individual.

 

I went up for a MP spin in a spit and managed to down a 109; it was most certainly the most intense and stomach-turning IL-2 dogfight I've had. SO, props for VR in this regard. However, even after several weeks, I could not shake the VR-sickness, which continued to stay with me for several days after my last flight.

 

I found this interesting, because I am extremely resistant to actual motion-sickness, both physically in the air, as well as from 2d-screen flying. The juxtaposition caught me quite unexpectedly. I ended up returning the Rift-S due to having a wide IPD (close to 70). I wonder if that has anything to do with it.

I absolutely love the idea of VR, but find IRL flying and 2d-sim flying more enjoyable and without the nausea. From the forums it seems my experience isn't that common, though. Either that, or there are a bunch of sick sim pilots all pretending they feel fine. :) 

I like VIVE  , it has physical IPD adjustment .  Next time  when you have a chance to try vive index  demo  don't miss it.   😄

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Posted (edited)

Lets learn about  IPD adjustment  

 

when first time I got Pimax 4k  that time I learn about  software IPD adjustment, my  I(PD)  is  33.5+33.5 = 67 mm (this data I get from glasses shop)  luckly that my left and right eye are equal from my nose. 

I like to try Rift-S  but when  google to get infomation and surprise that  Rift-S  is PERFECT for people who has ipd between 61.5 to  65.5 mm( data here )   you can check from  this guy's youtube  and I wonder why ? and this is the answers Oculus Explains Why Rift S Doesn’t Have Mechanical IPD Adjustment    , it is all about cost cut to keep the price down  by Rift S  uses a single display to which both lenses are fixed, which means the actual distance between the lenses cannot be adjusted that why software ipd adjustment has come   😄 

 

So you have to make (very very ) sure how long of your IPD  if you not sure go to glasses shop  or  you can do by yourself  this way  How to measure your IPD 

I hope you all will happy for your new VR   😄 

 

Edited by Karost
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57 minutes ago, Karost said:

Lets learn about  IPD adjustment  

 

when first time I got Pimax 4k  that time I learn about  software IPD adjustment, my  I(PD)  is  33.5+33.5 = 67 mm (this data I get from glasses shop)  luckly that my left and right eye are equal from my nose. 

I like to try Rift-S  but when  google to get infomation and surprise that  Rift-S  is PERFECT for people who has ipd between 61.5 to  65.5 mm( data here )   you can check from  this guy's youtube  and I wonder why ? and this is the answers Oculus Explains Why Rift S Doesn’t Have Mechanical IPD Adjustment    , it is all about cost cut to keep the price down  by Rift S  uses a single display to which both lenses are fixed, which means the actual distance between the lenses cannot be adjusted that why software ipd adjustment has come   😄 

 

So you have to make (very very ) sure how long of your IPD  if you not sure go to glasses shop  or  you can do by yourself  this way  How to measure your IPD 

I hope you all will happy for your new VR   😄 

 

I've upgraded from Rift CV1 to Rift S. My IPD is 66 (measured by optician) and I get very sharp comfortable viewing. I guess ideally you need to try before you buy.

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Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, E69_Qpassa_VR said:

The nausea is something that happens to elder people. Apologize me if you are young 😁. You have to play until you get used to it and be able to use them. Just not start fighting in a dogfight, use them with a ju52, UV-2..

I’m 34, lol. And if/hopefully when I get up there in age, I will be quite proud to have done so and will probably be holodecking by then. ;)

 

 

I do see the point about slowly working into it instead of going full dogfighting right away. 

Edited by kurtj
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Posted (edited)
5 hours ago, E69_Qpassa_VR said:

The nausea is something that happens to elder people. Apologize me if you are young 😁. You have to play until you get used to it and be able to use them. Just not start fighting in a dogfight, use them with a ju52, UV-2..

 

Hey I resemble that remark!!!

But that is ok, at least I am retired and can fly daily as much as I want if I wish,

:P

Edited by dburne
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I`m not sure how `old` elder people you mean. I`m not exactly that young but I get no nausea at all. Even twizzling around in mid air. Also in walking games like Skyrim VR, I don`t get any of that.

 

I did get a momentary, I suppose `nausea`, in Elite though while I was flying in space and decided to barrel roll really fast!

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4 hours ago, Karost said:

 

Thankyou very much Karost.  You know, I don't think I've ever even looked at that tab, lol.:salute:

 

I've just got to ask;  what is the definition of 'elder people'?  I'm 56 years old and have no problems with VR whatsoever but I've never suffered from any sort of motion sickness in my life either.:)

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4 minutes ago, DD_Arthur said:

 

Thankyou very much Karost.  You know, I don't think I've ever even looked at that tab, lol.:salute:

 

I've just got to ask;  what is the definition of 'elder people'?  I'm 56 years old and have no problems with VR whatsoever but I've never suffered from any sort of motion sickness in my life either.:)

 

i`m just a bit younger than you, but same. I think it`s more whether you`re the travel sickness type rather than age, but I`m no expert.

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OK, I'll bite...74 years young here and get no nausea flinging my Spitfire around in a dogfight. I enjoy a good session in frantic fps games too :)

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2 hours ago, DD_Arthur said:

 

Thankyou very much Karost.  You know, I don't think I've ever even looked at that tab, lol.:salute:

 

I've just got to ask;  what is the definition of 'elder people'?  I'm 56 years old and have no problems with VR whatsoever but I've never suffered from any sort of motion sickness in my life either.:)

I not sure people  could use 'elderly people' which is often considered politer than 'old people 
when I see a man age over 50 can run like he just 35  or playing  computer games like a kids :P  
I like to call elder .  and I'm 52 now.

 

but for the motion sickness is another story  when I was 38 years old  I play game Lock On with my two  friends same ages.
one of my friend he very happy about this game but other one seem not like it even FPS game he can not play

it look like his brain was reject 3D illusion  on 2D monitor and has a side effect like getting sick so imo it is not about ages it about  brain condition.  😄

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I have a CV1.  I have a Rift S.

 

I can tell you...by looking with my own eyes...there is a huge clarity jump going from CV1 to Rift S.  To me..after seeing it first hand..it is a very worthwhile upgrade.

 

And quite frankly...I may cancel my Index order as the difference in clarity between the 400.00 Rift S and the 1000.00 Index package is minimal.  Certainly not a 600.00 improvement.

 

I'm immensely happy with the Rift S.

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Posted (edited)
36 minutes ago, AuburnAlumni said:

I have a CV1.  I have a Rift S.

 

I can tell you...by looking with my own eyes...there is a huge clarity jump going from CV1 to Rift S.  To me..after seeing it first hand..it is a very worthwhile upgrade.

 

And quite frankly...I may cancel my Index order as the difference in clarity between the 400.00 Rift S and the 1000.00 Index package is minimal.  Certainly not a 600.00 improvement.

 

I'm immensely happy with the Rift S.

 

:good:

 

Nice choice!

Yes I found the difference between CV1 and Rift S much more substantial than I thought it would be.

Edited by dburne

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On 7/9/2019 at 9:43 PM, pfrances said:

Can't bring myself to give money to Facebook so rift is permanently off the table.

 

 

100% Agree.

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Posted (edited)

Thanks to everyone for posting your experiences.  I have had the Rift since it came out 3+ years ago, and was so looking forward to getting the Reverb.  Well it came from Amazon with a busted left headphone, but I tried it anyway and sent the Reverb back because:

 

1.  The heavy cable made it awkward and uncomfortable to wear.

2.  The 'sweet spot' seemed about 50% smaller than the Rift, and needed more headset adjusting (frequent due to the heavy cable).

3.  The higher resolution was nice, but only about 30-40% better imo than the Rift.

4.  WMR software seemed to gag at times, not sure its reliable enough.

5.  Controllers not near as nice as the Rift's.

 

After reading many of your posts I have ordered the Rift S !

 

Edited by SCG_CorZero
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