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Valve Index vs. Pimax5K+: Which one to pick? (through lens pictures)

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, 3ra_Luke said:

Thanks Chili. I´ve spend the weekend testing 5k XR and I must say, once you find the correct settings, the experience is great. I´ve never owned a 5K+ or 8K but with the Pimax 5K XR the blacks are great and there´s no glare at all. Or at least, I cant notice it. The FOV is very good, but what I was looking for was the readability of the cockpit instruments, and I must say is really surprising. For me,  in the sweet spot, once you focus your eyes on the zone of the instruments, for the first time, I can say I could fly (not only IL-2 but also other sims, like DCS, Aerofly FS2 or War Thunder) almost the same as if I was using an external screen. I´m using PiTools 1.0.1.144 and I´m sure if I tweak it more (I readed something about changing offsets for improving sweet spot??) I will get even better results.

But...I have only a big problem with this 5K XR , and is the uncomfortable that it is. Nothing compared to Oculus Rift. I need to constantly adjust the unit in my face because the strap system is terrible. The lens zone close to the nose is constantly touching my upper nose zone, and its really hurting me, and I mean real pain. Now I understand why some people uses a "counterweight" in the back strap, to lift the unit, and avoid the fall of it over the nose. I know this problem maybe could be solved with a better face cushion and the Deluxe Audio Strap from Vive, but in Amazon Spain, the cushions you mentioned and use, are no longer available, and for the DAS , you need also to print some plastic adapters, and I dont have access to a 3D printer. I see you managed to do some nice mods with your 5k. Could you help me ?  Could this work as cushion? https://www.amazon.es/Miayaya-Almohadillas-Espuma-para-Vive/dp/B07R559TPP/ref=sr_1_15?__mk_es_ES=ÅMÅŽÕÑ&keywords=reemplazo+de+cara+espuma+htc&qid=1563163957&s=electronics&sr=1-15  I dont want to loose FOV and I know the size of the cushion is important. With this one there are two sizes.

And for the DAS, do you know if its possible to buy or print the adapters somewhere?. I am zero in this 3D printing world.    Thanks in advance. Gracias.

There are online 3D printing services but that won't be cheap. Most people advise to use the DAS

Edited by E69_Qpassa_VR

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5 hours ago, E69_Qpassa_VR said:

There are online 3D printing services but that won't be cheap. Most people advise to use the DAS

Yes, I can buy the DAS, but without printed adapters is useless with Pimax units. I will pay for those adapters, if any spanish Pimax user would be so nice to print them for me. 🙂

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If the Pimax wasn`t so expensive I would likely bought that.

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8 hours ago, 3ra_Luke said:

I will pay for those adapters, if any spanish Pimax user would be so nice to print them for me.

 

Hi, there multiple printing companies who also do 3D printing, for sure you will find many in Alicante. I paid 30€ for my 3D parts.

More explanations here: https://forum.il2sturmovik.com/topic/51688-replacement-onf-pimax-5k-headstrap-has-anyone-actually-done-it/?do=findComment&comment=792462

Definetly the DAS provide a very nice fixing solution and also nice audio. The fixing is as good as the Index fixing. Just another world compared with the original Pimax strap.

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Posted (edited)

Well, the final decision has just arrived now and the winner is....... : INDEX!!!

Not by a big difference but overall I prefer the Index over the Pimax5K+.  I have just made a simple questions to me: Which one do you prefer to play?
Now I will expose MY REASONS. They are obviously only valid for me. Many other people will prefer the Pimax5K+ and it is perfectly understandable. VR, like reality, is subjective.
None of these two VR headsets are perfect, each has their own deficiencies, but for me the Index is a "clear" winner.
It will be a mixing feeling by selling the Pimax5K+ since after DAS enhancement it is great, but I just want to own only one headset.

 

I will start first by the most important reasons (in %) that decided me in favour of the Index:

 

1.- SWEET SPOT (30%): People in general don´t put too much attention to this point. From the two definitions of sweet spot, I understand sweet spot as the area that you see focused without the need to move the head, just moving the eyes.
In the Index, you will not believe it, but it is practically all you can see horizontally (FOV 108) and vertically (FOV 104) . That's simply amazing. I have not seen that in DK1, DK2, Rift, Vive, VivePro (the worst), Oculus Go and Pimax5K+. The Index is outstanding in this department.
This is very useful when in combat you are behind your target but quickly move your eyes to gauges or to ID other planes, without the need to move your head. The Pimax5K+ has also a nice sweet spot but it is inferior to the Index (I would say 90 horizontal from FOV 144 and 80 vertical from FOV 104).
There is simply almost no blurry images at the edges.

 

2.- CLARITY (30%): Although the amount of detail you can get from Index at ss=140% and Pimax5K+ at ss=100% is very very similar, the images are a bit more refined, "real" and "solid" in the Index. Here I not comparing with Pimax5K+ at SS=60% (where the images a bit worst than Index) but comparing with the images at 100% since I don´t want to penalize the Pimax because the performance (I can always buy a 2080Ti Super to solve that, the money is not considered here at any moment).
The less SDE in the Index helps here despite SDE was something never worried my before. But after several trial with Index for 30 min and again Pimax5K+ for 30 min I can see a clear difference.
This and the first reason was the cause of my WOW moment the first time I tried the Index after several months with Pimax5K+.

 

3.- FOV (-30%): Here the Pimax5K+ is the winner in the Horizontal FOV (144 Normal vs 108). It is sooo nice to see more around, more inmersion and more spatial awareness but with the Index I didn´t feel the kind of binocular vision I had with the Rift.
I would say that the vertical FOV is even more important that the horizontal FOV. Here both have a great FOV at 104, which is much more than the Rift. I wish the Index would have more horizontal FOV, but it is what it is.
Horizontal FOVs beyond 150 are really not practical since those areas are neither focused in real life, I hope future VR manufacturers don´t get obsessed with FOV and focus resources on other things but with FOV of just 150. Also, talking about realism, most of WWII pilots were using glasses which reduces the horizontal FOV, so like not using swivel chair (my choice) it can also add realism not going beyond 140.

 

4.- PERFORMANCE (20%): As said before, with the Index at 80Hz I have more room to increase SS or to increase the settings of IL-2 (from Balanced to High) than with the Pimax5K+. Since I don´t use the Motion Smoothing (I will dig on this in future) or the Pimax Smart Smoothing, I can quickly see when I am below the panel frequency (double image or micro-stuttering), it is and effect that typically happen in heavy scenarios, but this is when you really want to be comfortable with images.
Certainly a 9600K at 5.1GHz with a 2080Ti will help here, but not too much (30%). Probably in 1.5 year the Index will become obsolete (if not at September after trying the Reverb), so performance will be always a cat and mice game. With the Index I know for sure my system will be quite OK for the next 12 months.

 

5.- COMFORT (equal): After putting Deluxe Audio Strap with 3D printed parts  and 18mm face cushion on Pimax5K+ I would say that the confort is at the same level (very high). The back wheels are very similar to regulate the pressure on the face. The IPD is better regulated on the Index (no lash or sticky) and on the Index you can also regulate the distance of the lenses to your eyes.
It is much easier to find the right position on Index, but with practice you also find that on Pimax5K+.

 

6.- SOFTWARE (15%): The Pitool has been growing in functionality and different adjust levels, but honestly it has been a pain in the crashing section. Sometimes some of the functionality doesn´t work with IL-2 on my GPU (FFR). I really love the Pimax guys for bringing the VR beyond limits but on the software quality they are behind SteamVR.
The Index talks directly with SteamVR, no intermediate software like Pitools (or Oculus Home with the Rift). The Index has been working always 100% with just one basestation at 1.5 meters. With the Pimax I sometimes lose track and I need to be at 1.8 meters. Also, lately, the Pimax5K+ crashses with IL-2 with no apparent reason.
With the Pimax I had sometimes to restart the computer in order to solve one of the multiple error codes in the pitools. With the Index and SteamVR is zero errors.

 

7.- Weight and MOMENT OF INERTIA (equally bad): The Pimax5K+ is a little bit more light than the Index but both are well compensated (Pimax5K+ with DAS of course). But another matter is when you quickly turn your head right to left and left to right. The VR headset follow your head with some play or lash. This is a bad thing in both headsets.
I remember that the Rift was much better on this department, there were almost no lash.

 

8- DISTORSIONS (5%): I was not going to mention that, but it is true. With the Pimax5K+, after adjusting everything (IPD, position, straps) and obtaining a very clear image at center of the view, I still feel something weird which it is difficult to explain. I combat scenarios I totally forget this, but in still and calm places (after landing and opening canopy) I still see a subtle strange effect when moving head from right to left and left to right.
The scene seems to be a very very little distorsions as I move the head or look in the middle with both eyes. For sure I can correct this by going into the Pimax pitool and touch the multiple parameters, but honestly this is too much work.
This doesnñt happen in the Index. It is just "bloom" perfect just after putting the headset.

 

9- GLARE or God rays (-5%): The Pimax5K+ has practically eliminated all the god rays that I saw in the Rift. But here with the Index they are again. This is something that could be bad for dark scenes like space sims, but with IL-2, it doesn´t really hurt me a lot. I would prefer the Valve Index without that, but it is what it is.

 

10.- AUDIO (equal): With the Index I have heard thing I have not hear before with Rift (some effects of propellers from bombers nearby) and they are great because they don´t touch your ears, but I have to admit that on the bass department they are a bit short. Maybe I can correct that with equalizer but at default values they are not as great as the high freq sound.
If I put my hand around the speaker I can improve the bass. The DAS audio is quite OK, not as good in the high freq but better in bass. In any case, in both headsets I can always go to an external headphones, so I didn´t put a lot of attention to the audio section.

 

So, this is the end of the comparison. I hope it would be useful.
In a couple of days I will put my Pimax5K+ (480€ just headset) and separated my DAS+3Dprints (100€) on eBay + shipment. If someone is interested just drop me a PM.
I am in Zaragoza, if you are from Madrid or Barcelona I can pay you the roundtrip ticket high speed train AVE (with points) to pick it up at Zaragoza.

Edited by chiliwili69
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11 hours ago, chiliwili69 said:

.

So, this is the end of the comparison. I hope it would be useful.
 

 

A great run down but there are a few points...

 

First is simplicity of use.  It seems that with the Pimax you have to do a lot to get it working right. Is the Index plug and play, like the CV1?

 

Second is support. If you are fortunate you do not need it but I wonder if Valve support is better than Pimax support. 

 

Finally, a simple comparison between the CV1 and Index would be great for those like me who have to justify going from CV1 to Index. Is it THAT much better?

 

most comparisons concentrate on the Rift S etc. 

 

von Tom

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6 hours ago, von_Tom said:

First is simplicity of use.  It seems that with the Pimax you have to do a lot to get it working right. Is the Index plug and play, like the CV1?

 

The Pimax like the Index need at least one Vive Basestastion (v1.0 or v2.0) to run. With one it is enough for seated experience.

Also the Pimax and the Index need an independent power supply, in addition to the USB connector and the Display port connector.

 

For the Pimax and reused for index I made a separated power supply with a switch, so when I use VR I switch it on, giving power to the Basestation and device at the same time. When I finish playing VR I switch it off. 

 

With the index it is even better than the Rift, you don´t need Oculus Home running (or all kind of tricks to prevent Oculus Home to launch), just only SteamVR which is launched by IL-2

6 hours ago, von_Tom said:

Second is support. If you are fortunate you do not need it but I wonder if Valve support is better than Pimax support

 

No experience with Valve support (cross fingers) but the Pimax support in my case was amazingly good. I was needing them during 3-4 days in Jannuary and they were quite agile, logging into my PC and checking things I have no clue.

6 hours ago, von_Tom said:

Finally, a simple comparison between the CV1 and Index would be great for those like me who have to justify going from CV1 to Index. Is it THAT much better?

 

Yes the Index is that much better than Rift CV1 in almost everything except the less inertia of the Rift and similar audio.

Larger sweet spot, more clarity, more resolution, more horizontal and vertical FOV.

So if money is not a constraint it is a worth upgrade. I only picked the HMD, without controllers and without basestations (I already had one).

 

In terms of total number of pixels of the display you go from 2.6 million (Rift) to 4.6 million (index), and in addition the Index is LCD, so it means 3 subpixels per pixels. So in number of subpixels you go from 5.2 million (Rift) to 13.8 million (Index).

 

I already sold my Rift when I got my Pimax5K+ so I can not make exactly the same pictures, but I keep them and here I show the one I used for the Rift with SS=180% and the one used recently in this thread with the Index with SS=140%. The raw images are here.

You can download them and make zoom in the gauges.

Just a crop of that:

Untitled.png.c4057adbdffa6ea3c38896cf631407b6.png

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Thanks for the info. 

 

The Index looks quite blue. Can that be altered?

 

von Tom

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The pictures I posted can not be fully compared since they are from different conditions scenario, so color can be affected.

I don´t think Index looks blue in play game, in fact colors seems to be quite right although I never been inside a real spit...just only in museums in Duxford.

 

Voodoo shown some color comparison using the TestHMD app and showed that in the minute 15 of this video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Q2ZlXGNLc8

 

and some screen captures here:

https://www.reddit.com/r/ValveIndex/comments/c71vgf/my_valve_index_review_my_new_king_of_virtual/

 

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Posted (edited)

Hello chiliwili69. For your comparison between the Index and the Pimax 5k+ I agree with you 100%. You provided a lot of facts, which I only saw with my eyes 😀. Well done!  Meanwhile, I have also sold my Pimax with DAS 😁.

 

Unfortunately, I have yet not found an optimal setting for the Zoom Mod of lefuneste with the Index. Are you already there?

Edited by Pikas_62

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Posted (edited)
5 hours ago, Pikas_62 said:

I have yet not found an optimal setting for the Zoom Mod of lefuneste with the Index. Are you already there?

 

I have never used the lefuneste Mod since I don´t play MP. In SP I use icons just for a second.

I think is great to have this extra zoom with the mod and the work of lefuneste.

I hope devs will implement better zoom in future since Sneaksie was asking this in the comments of a dev diary few weeks ago:

 

Edited by chiliwili69

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Follow on questions (that I may have asked elsewhere). 

 

For purely seated games games do I need more than 1 lighthouse?  Does 1 give the same movement/recording range as a Rift?

 

Do I have to have to have the controllers, or for non flying games can I make do with keyboard and mouse?

 

von Tom

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5 hours ago, von_Tom said:

For purely seated games games do I need more than 1 lighthouse?  Does 1 give the same movement/recording range as a Rift?

 

Do I have to have to have the controllers, or for non flying games can I make do with keyboard and mouse?

 

You only need 1 basestation (v1.0 is the one I have, they can be bought in amazon or ebay). the V2.0 are the ones that came with the Index if you buy it with basestations.

With 1 basestation you have full 6DOF, exactly as Rift for seated experience and without controllers. (so most of seated games are OK)

 

If you are thinking to play other VR standing games, then most of them require controllers and then two basestations is a must.

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On ‎7‎/‎18‎/‎2019 at 7:16 AM, chiliwili69 said:

 

You only need 1 basestation (v1.0 is the one I have, they can be bought in amazon or ebay). the V2.0 are the ones that came with the Index if you buy it with basestations.

With 1 basestation you have full 6DOF, exactly as Rift for seated experience and without controllers. (so most of seated games are OK)

 

If you are thinking to play other VR standing games, then most of them require controllers and then two basestations is a must.

chilli - interesting discussions and I think you made the right choice - however would have also considered the reverb (if you can actually get one!)

I have both index and reverb - in terms of ease of use and plug and play index is easily the winner (use it for all non-sims)  but for sims reverb gives the best and sharpest cockpit (provide you can get it to run with enough fps) - use it mainly for DCS and its amazing...……………..

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Pimax looks washed out and too bright in those comparisons. 

I just pulled the trigger on the index this week, cant wait to get it. It said ot would ship in 4-5 days.

 

On 7/4/2019 at 5:49 PM, Alonzo said:

I just saw a thread where someone gave some coherent reasons they were returning their Index, basically that it wasn’t enough of an improvement over the Rift S to be worth it. But that’s a general use-case, not IL2/sims.

 

I dont think that's the point of the Index. It's an upgrade from the Vive 1, the Oculus S is sort of competing in the same category (sort of).

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On 7/26/2019 at 7:08 AM, Jade_Monkey said:

Pimax looks washed out and too bright in those comparisons. 

I just pulled the trigger on the index this week, cant wait to get it. It said ot would ship in 4-5 days.

 

 

I dont think that's the point of the Index. It's an upgrade from the Vive 1, the Oculus S is sort of competing in the same category (sort of).


JM,

 

How are you liking the Index so far? I’m torn between it and other offerings. This thread has been great, just looking for the perspective of another new owner. 

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Posted (edited)
8 hours ago, Go_Pre said:


JM,

 

How are you liking the Index so far? I’m torn between it and other offerings. This thread has been great, just looking for the perspective of another new owner. 

 

Coming from a previous Vive user:

  • The SDE is practically gone. If you look for it, it's there, but it's subtle enough that if you are focused on the game you won't be abe to tell.
    • The cockpit and the wings of the planes look great, you can definitely fully appreciate the difference between 2k and 4k skins. Anything beyond that, such as your surrounding airfield and the distant landscape look more like what you would expect from VR.
    • The dials and labels in the cockpit are not perfect but definitely legible and "fine". 
    • I've played a bunch of MP matches and spotting is definitely much easier than on my monitor. In my monitor everything blends against the background and you have to have the eyesight of a falcon.
  • Another big improvement is the audio, my vive setup was terrible. This one is very comfortable and definitely holds its own against a set of headphones.
  • The headset is very comfortable, you can have pretty long gaming sessions without getting tired. The Vive was very uncomfortable and together with the SDE I would want to stop  playing after a sortie or two.
  • My performance is ok, not the best. I achieve 45 fps consistently in BOS but definitely not 90 or 120. Specs: RTX 2080Ti watercooled, i7 7700K watercooled, 16GB Corsair Dominator, SSD. Having said that, 45 fps does not feel weird, and i can still play long sessions at that rate.
    • I hope to find other ways to improve performance. From what I can tell, I'm using 100% GPU and not maxing out any CPU cores.
  • Personally I think you need ~150 SS to make the game visually appealing and removing all the jaggies. I found that lowering to 100% does not bring me up to 90fps so might as well enjoy the eye candy. 
  • The knuckles are amazing. Definitely a game changer. I have been playing IL2 but also H3VR and VTOL VR (this one is a MUST).
  • The software is still a bit glitchy imo, i think we need a couple more patches and firmware upgrades to really feel like a non-beta.
    • If you exit the game, then you can't re-launch it without closing SteamVR first and launching it again. It seems like tere are some weird input conflicts with my HOTAS and Steam VR menus.

Overall I'm very happy. My first impression was "it's almost like using my monitor" which is an ultrawide 34" 3440x1440. Obviously it's not, but that was my first impression, which kind of wore out after a while. 

 

EDIT: Btw, the images above look nothing like the real thing, so take them with a grain of salt. It's good as a comparison, but dont use them to know what they'd feel like if you put a headset on.

Edited by Jade_Monkey
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@Jade_Monkey

Good read and interesting your findings pertaining to Render Res and also FPS. 

Your experience is similar to mine with the Pimax 8K although for me it has been a bit of a journey for it to get to where we are today (blurriness over distance was a problem until PiTool 1.0.1.144).

 

Run PiTool at 1.5 with SteamVR 100% and you have monitor clarity.  I need to run FFR to be playable and even then, Low Graphics settings with no SSAO.  Even then - it can be hit and miss with stability of Il2 where as Assetto Corsa is stable as.  I think Il2 Stability might boil down to the need for both the Index and Pimax 5/8K to need Parallel Projections for the cantered and individual eye displays.

 

If we can get stability happening with Il2, I would be very happy.  There will be the Pimax 8K-X released sometime this year they claim and that will be native 4K res per eye on proper RGB screens.  That would be another step up and I doubt render requirements would be any over what is required with the current crop of HMD's.  At least the 8K.

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I sold my Pimax now and decided to give the Index a try.
I love the FOV, but the sweetspot was kind of small in the Pimax.
Also the Part of the FOV thats bigger than what for example the index offers seems to be kind of blurred and therefor not really usable.
I hope the higher clarity, bigger spweetspot, better sopund and higher comfort are woth the switch.
In 2 Days ill know:)

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22 hours ago, Jade_Monkey said:

 

Coming from a previous Vive user:

  • The SDE is practically gone. If you look for it, it's there, but it's subtle enough that if you are focused on the game you won't be abe to tell.
    • The cockpit and the wings of the planes look great, you can definitely fully appreciate the difference between 2k and 4k skins. Anything beyond that, such as your surrounding airfield and the distant landscape look more like what you would expect from VR.
    • The dials and labels in the cockpit are not perfect but definitely legible and "fine". 
    • I've played a bunch of MP matches and spotting is definitely much easier than on my monitor. In my monitor everything blends against the background and you have to have the eyesight of a falcon.
  • Another big improvement is the audio, my vive setup was terrible. This one is very comfortable and definitely holds its own against a set of headphones.
  • The headset is very comfortable, you can have pretty long gaming sessions without getting tired. The Vive was very uncomfortable and together with the SDE I would want to stop  playing after a sortie or two.
  • My performance is ok, not the best. I achieve 45 fps consistently in BOS but definitely not 90 or 120. Specs: RTX 2080Ti watercooled, i7 7700K watercooled, 16GB Corsair Dominator, SSD. Having said that, 45 fps does not feel weird, and i can still play long sessions at that rate.
    • I hope to find other ways to improve performance. From what I can tell, I'm using 100% GPU and not maxing out any CPU cores.
  • Personally I think you need ~150 SS to make the game visually appealing and removing all the jaggies. I found that lowering to 100% does not bring me up to 90fps so might as well enjoy the eye candy. 
  • The knuckles are amazing. Definitely a game changer. I have been playing IL2 but also H3VR and VTOL VR (this one is a MUST).
  • The software is still a bit glitchy imo, i think we need a couple more patches and firmware upgrades to really feel like a non-beta.
    • If you exit the game, then you can't re-launch it without closing SteamVR first and launching it again. It seems like tere are some weird input conflicts with my HOTAS and Steam VR menus.

Overall I'm very happy. My first impression was "it's almost like using my monitor" which is an ultrawide 34" 3440x1440. Obviously it's not, but that was my first impression, which kind of wore out after a while. 

 

EDIT: Btw, the images above look nothing like the real thing, so take them with a grain of salt. It's good as a comparison, but dont use them to know what they'd feel like if you put a headset on.


Thanks for the in depth response. The index will likely be my next headset unless anything better is announced in the next 2 months or so. 

18 minutes ago, Winger said:

I sold my Pimax now and decided to give the Index a try.
I love the FOV, but the sweetspot was kind of small in the Pimax.
Also the Part of the FOV thats bigger than what for example the index offers seems to be kind of blurred and therefor not really usable.
I hope the higher clarity, bigger spweetspot, better sopund and higher comfort are woth the switch.
In 2 Days ill know:)


Please let us know! 

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On 8/5/2019 at 1:28 AM, Jade_Monkey said:

My performance is ok, not the best. I achieve 45 fps consistently in BOS but definitely not 90 or 120. Specs: RTX 2080Ti watercooled, i7 7700K watercooled, 16GB Corsair Dominator, SSD. Having said that, 45 fps does not feel weird, and i can still play long sessions at that rate.

  • I hope to find other ways to improve performance. From what I can tell, I'm using 100% GPU and not maxing out any CPU cores.

 

 

I am glad you are happy with the Index. Just some thoughts about performance:

705815362_indexsteamvr.thumb.png.1e56e7d10ec014c61cb6b59ee551688d.png

 

- You can set up the Index to run at 80 Hz instead of 90Hz. I don´t notice the difference. Doing this you will unload the CPU a bit, since it will need to build the geometry 10 times less per second, so you will have less dropped frames.

 

- If you are always at 45fps, perhaps you activated the "Motion Smoothing" algorithm. This is the "equivalent" to Oculus ASW or Pimax SmartSmoothing. Anytime you PC can not deliver the required frames (80fps or 90fps) then it generate only half to the frames (40fps or 45fps) and the other half is generated synthetically (based on trajectories of moving objects in scene). The SteamVR "Motion Smoothing" does a good job, but sometimes introduces some small glitches. You can try to switch it off to see how good is your experience and performance.

 

- Do you do overclocking in the 7700K? If you don´t do it you will get a big improvement by bringing your CPU from 4.2GHz to 4.8 or perhaps more. Doing OC is pretty easy nowadays:

https://forum.il2sturmovik.com/topic/29881-overclocking-a-4790k-for-better-bos-performance/

 

- Your 2080Ti is really really big enough to run the Index at 150%, my SteamVR recommended SS for my 1080Ti is 150% (but I run at 140%). So your 2080Ti should never be your bottleneck. You can run the free tool MSI afterburner to monitor GPU load (and CPU frequency and many other variables) while you run the game.

 

- What IL-2 graphics settings do you use? (I use High settings). Clouds and mirrors have a great impact in IL-2 performance. Try QMB with many planes and without clouds first.

 

Enjoy!

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12 minutes ago, chiliwili69 said:

- Your 2080Ti is really really big enough to run the Index at 150%, my SteamVR recommended SS for my 1080Ti is 150% (but I run at 140%). So your 2080Ti should never be your bottleneck. You can run the free tool MSI afterburner to monitor GPU load (and CPU frequency and many other variables) while you run the game.

I think SteamVR makes a best estimate based on hardware but the applications will vary on what it can run. Flight sims are notoriously single core CPU speed dependent, so you might find you need to back off whatever SteamVR suggests.

 

Also Windows spread single core performance over multiple cores which gives the impression the CPU isn't being fully utilised, so often it appears both CPU and GPU are not being pushed although the single core CPU speed is the bottleneck.

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7 minutes ago, PO_Baldrick said:

I think SteamVR makes a best estimate based on hardware but the applications will vary on what it can run. Flight sims are notoriously single core CPU speed dependent, so you might find you need to back off whatever SteamVR suggests.

 

Also Windows spread single core performance over multiple cores which gives the impression the CPU isn't being fully utilised, so often it appears both CPU and GPU are not being pushed although the single core CPU speed is the bottleneck.

 

Yes, I also think that SteamVR SS estimate is just based on hardware, but the best way to know how much SS you can apply to your game (IL2 in our case) is to run MSI afterburner monitoring GPU load (and other variables) and also fpsVR app which tells you the frametimes for CPU and GPU. So when I am below 80fps it always because my CPU framtimes is leaving almost no room for the GPU to do his job despite the GPU load is around 60%-70%.

 

As you can read we run several tests and we saw how single-core performance dependant is IL-2 VR:

https://forum.il2sturmovik.com/topic/29322-measuring-rig-performance-common-baseline-for-il-2-v3010/

 

And yes, CPU%load or core%load are not good variables to look at. IL-2 uses 4 threads but one of them is the heavy one. The threads are jumping from core to core for thermal reasons and you will not see a core at 100%, but the thread is the bottleneck. Read this:

https://forum.il2sturmovik.com/topic/29322-measuring-rig-performance-common-baseline-for-il-2-v3010/?do=findComment&comment=499726

 

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48 minutes ago, chiliwili69 said:

And yes, CPU%load or core%load are not good variables to look at. IL-2 uses 4 threads but one of them is the heavy one. The threads are jumping from core to core for thermal reasons and you will not see a core at 100%, but the thread is the bottleneck. Read this:

https://forum.il2sturmovik.com/topic/29322-measuring-rig-performance-common-baseline-for-il-2-v3010/?do=findComment&comment=499726

 

 

That is a great thread on the subject, thanks!

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12 hours ago, Go_Pre said:


Thanks for the in depth response. The index will likely be my next headset unless anything better is announced in the next 2 months or so. 


Please let us know! 

will do. its sceduled to be delivered tomorrow.

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Hi

 

Nobody is foreseeing the HTC VIVE COSMOS,  1440 x 1700    RGB LCD  at  90hz  with IL2 ?

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Posted (edited)
On 8/7/2019 at 9:53 AM, BlackJackSunCup-06 said:

Hi

 

Nobody is foreseeing the HTC VIVE COSMOS,  1440 x 1700    RGB LCD  at  90hz  with IL2 ?

 

For me having used a Pimax 5K+, anything with less than 150 deg FOV is a non starter.  I tried the Valve Index at a work colleague's home (he also wanted to test my 5K+) and IMHO it was a downgrade from the Pimax 5K+ overall.  Valve Index was just not good enough for improvement in any single area and overall a downgrade compared to the 5K+.  My work colleague felt the Valve Index was better overall (only just).  That and the fact that Chili had a hard time deciding between the two shows how close it is to call.  So you can't go wrong with either HMD.

 

  • IQ was similar
  • SDE marginally better on Index but not significantly so
  • The lack of FoV was a massive issue.
  • Black levels were similar (in that both are pretty poor) compared to OLED.
  • Valve Index had horrible glare in dark games.  Pimax was much better here.

One thing I did do was order Index Controllers after trying them, they were a massive improvement over the Vive Wands.

 

What I want for my ultimate VR HMD is:

  • Minimum 150 FOV.
  • OLED full RGB stripe if it exists.
  • Compatible with my existing Lighthouses and Index Controllers.
  • 3840x2160 minimum resolution.

 

I'm sorry but for me to upgrade there needs to be a "wow" factor that I just must have.  So for me I will wait to see what Pimax bring with the 8KX and native 3840x2160 per eye.

Edited by ICDP
Edited to add excessive god rays as negactive for Index
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You wont get OLED full RGB stripe with the 8K-X but you will have full RGB stripe LCD displays from the specs mentioned by SweViver on Pimax forums.

 

Awaiting his info on the 8K-X which was meant to be last month but hopefully soon and info from Pimax on Headset upgrade offers.👍

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, blitze said:

You wont get OLED full RGB stripe with the 8K-X but you will have full RGB stripe LCD displays from the specs mentioned by SweViver on Pimax forums.

 

Awaiting his info on the 8K-X which was meant to be last month but hopefully soon and info from Pimax on Headset upgrade offers.👍

 

I know you can't always get what you want. 😉

 

I would settle for an improvement in resolution which is what the 8KX promises.  I don't expect or think they will offer upgrades but I would hope to be able to use the $100 worth of vouchers I got for downgrading from the 8K to the 5K+.

Edited by ICDP

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So do I waiting what 8k X offers. But this should required CPU and GPU power. This 8kx should come with eye tracking ,enabling dynamic foveated graphics rendering, which concentrates high-quality visuals rendering only upon where their eyes are currently focused and therefore reducing CPU GPU power. Especialy now IL2 developers reported in  Dev blog #227 " Improved visibility distance of planes and ships " instead of a bunch of black pixels.

 

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14 hours ago, BlackJackSunCup-06 said:

So do I waiting what 8k X offers. But this should required CPU and GPU power. This 8kx should come with eye tracking ,enabling dynamic foveated graphics rendering, which concentrates high-quality visuals rendering only upon where their eyes are currently focused and therefore reducing CPU GPU power. Especialy now IL2 developers reported in  Dev blog #227 " Improved visibility distance of planes and ships " instead of a bunch of black pixels.

 

8K-X will require no more CPU/GPU power than what is required from the 5K or 8K.  I'm already trying to push 4k x 4k (preferably 6k x 6k) render resolution with FFR for a decent image in Il2 with the 8K.

 

As for Eye Tracked Foreated Rendering - it is the Latency of tracking ones pupils that will be of concern here.  The rest is coming along but also I think eye tracking needs to be in game implemented.  To be honest - I would be happy sticking to Fixed Foreated Rendering with the Large FOV of the Pimax headsets.  With the improved clarity of the 8K-X running at native panel resolution, you will probably be able to dial Render Target Resolution back a little from the 8K (of which you are fighting a poorer panel tech and a 1440p to 4k inbuilt scaler) and then if needed, run some AA instead.  Anyway - it should look quite a bit clearer and with less screen door than the 8K at less or the same computing hardware requirements.

 

We'll see soon enough (fingers crossed).

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I found an Nvidia research paper from 2018, which I can’t link since copy/paste isn’t working on mobile. Key points:

 

Tobii eye trackers in an HMD have 8ms latency. Total system latency (motion to photon) for their testing was 20-30ms.

 

When you move your eyeball, your brain stops processing visual input for about 50ms before the motion, and for about 100ms total. This helps us not get visual blurring when our eyeballs move.

 

Their experiments deliberately added latency to see the effect on fovestion artifacts. At 10, 20 and 40ms of added latency, users could see no effect. At 80ms of added latency they could see it.

 

Conclusion: we are already at the point where eye tracking and total system latency is fast enough for foveation to be imperceptible, and it might cut rendering requirements by 90%.

 

 

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Reduction of rendering requirements by 90% - Nice.

 

Fixed Foreated Rendering does quite a good job as well drastically cutting rendering requirements but with Il2 there are stability issues.  At higher render targets the step down in render resolution works well and does not look pixelated or blocky.  Seems to fit well with the normal lens sweet spot of the Pimax Headsets.  At lower resolutions - it looks like garbage.

 

What Eye Tracking will also deliver for us is custom lense / face profiles that can be built for a person and their VR headset.  Should go a long way also improving clarity across the lens for each user.

 

https://www.roadtovr.com/why-eye-tracking-is-a-game-changer-for-vr-headsets-virtual-reality/

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8 hours ago, blitze said:

Reduction of rendering requirements by 90% - Nice.

 

Fixed Foreated Rendering does quite a good job as well drastically cutting rendering requirements but with Il2 there are stability issues.  At higher render targets the step down in render resolution works well and does not look pixelated or blocky.  Seems to fit well with the normal lens sweet spot of the Pimax Headsets.  At lower resolutions - it looks like garbage.

 

What Eye Tracking will also deliver for us is custom lense / face profiles that can be built for a person and their VR headset.  Should go a long way also improving clarity across the lens for each user.

 

https://www.roadtovr.com/why-eye-tracking-is-a-game-changer-for-vr-headsets-virtual-reality/

Great article about potential of eye tracking. Hope it all comes true soon enough. On the other hand the article is more then 1 year old, so there are probably some not mentioned technical difficulties and we may be wait for it a liitle longer then expected...

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So i have the Valve index now and sold my Pimax 5K+.
What i like much more with the Index:
Bigger sweetspot.


Higher picture Clarity and less SDE (you can keep cranking up up the SS and quality settings with the Index when you already get performance issues with the 5K+ due to the mich higher pixel count). And my 2080TI did not really solve this issue.


The FOV is smaller with the index. But I dont really miss the increased FOV of the 5K+ because the part of the FOV that was bigger in the 5K+ was distorted and blurry as hell anyways. At best usable for increased immersion but not to actually see something. Especially not in flightsims where the contacts are comparably small anyways.
Distortion overall. I fount the picture pretty distorted in the 5K+. Could compensate that by getting closer to the lenses but this resulted in less wear comfort.
 

Build quality. Simply put. The 5K+ is a pile fo crap compared to the index. Period.
I dont really understand that because the 5K+ is by far the much more expensive piece of hardware. And still they deliver sub par buildquality. I dont get it.

 

Wear comfort. Was pretty unusable out of the box with the 5K+. With the DAS it got much better. But still not as good as the Index. The index simply is really great regarding comfort. Especially the earphones are great because they dont touch your ears and dont get uncomfortable over time. The DAS Earphones, even thou they just slightly touched my ears started to hurt my ears over time. Not so the Indeax ones.

 

One downside so far with the index. Increased warmth of the electronics. I think this will get better when the summer is over. But I already ordered stuff to add a fan mod to the front.

A second one is if you have an IPD of 70+ then you get problems with the Index. Physical Adjustment only reaches up to 70. I have 71.5 so is bearable and for me not that big of a deal. But i think that very subjective.

 

At the end I would recommend trying out both and then pull the trigger. Some prefer the higher FOV. And i agree thats a big point. But not if you can actually use the increased FOV because everything is frikkin blurry.


 

 

 

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Exactly this. When I switched from the 5k+ to the Index, I came to exactly the same result.  When I put on the Index for the first time, I knew immediately that I would sell the 5k+.  I would like to add, however, that in my opinion the colors on the Index are much better.  The sharpness and clarity of the picture is also much better.  I can clearly differentiate the units of a column with the Index now and can also clearly see details of settlements and cities.  I always had difficulties with the 5k+.

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On 8/9/2019 at 8:29 PM, BlackJackSunCup-06 said:

 

Quote

"The higher the resolution of the headset, the better the dynamic rendering works compared with fixed rendering, which would otherwise need to fill every pixel of a high-res frame with full detail."

 

57% with Vive Pro. High FOV headsets would gain more, because a relatively smaller portion of the entire area would need be rendered at full resolution.

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Posted (edited)

I tried the Index vs 5K+ using identical SuperSampling on the same PC, also the Pimax quality rendering was at 1.  At these settings the Index did give a marginally clearer image and the colours looked better but I had not messed with Pitools contrast and brightness settings.

 

There really is not that much to choose in IQ, some wins and losses for both but each to their own.  I found the Pimax FOV worth it and have no issues with clarity or distortion on the normal FOV setting on my Pimax 5K+.  I do wear glasses and had to set the Index screens further from my face which probably made the FOV much worse.  The Pimax 5K+ is perfect with my glasses.

 

Build quality was better on the Index but the controllers did suffer from the thumbstick click problem.  In my experience, Valve quality control suffers with design faults rather than quality of materials.

 

I didn't play it long enough to test for comfort but I do think it would be better for longer VR sessions.

 

My Pimax 5K+ has the DAS and VR covers which do improve comfort substantially.  Though I will be honest and say if I had to choose from scratch and had tried neither HMD, I would choose Index purely on brand recognition and overall reviews.

Edited by ICDP

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