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BazookaMan

My flying buddy can't keep up...

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I posted this in the steam forum but I figure you all will be more knowledgeable and helpful.... my account was locked  out at the time so I couldn't post here:

 

I fly coop with several guys, but my friend (who isn't as experienced) can never keep up with the rest of us (of course flying the same plane). He often has to fly 1.4 ata to try to keep up with our 1.2, etc, and even then usually catch up. This happens consistently. It's obviously not something like flaps, gear, trim, rads, fuel/ammo loadout, etc.... happens regardless of what planes we're flying. Same settings, he may be 10 to 20 kph slower.

 

Is it possible his network and/or pc is causing an issue? Or could it only be some sort of piloting issue? Remember all plane settings are the same.

 

I was thinking maybe his twist stick was causing rudder drifting but I spec'd last night behind his plane and his rudder was the same orientation as mine (ever so slightly to the right). We were flying D9's and he was running 1.4 or 1.5 to keep up with the 3 of us in front (we always take off at the same time, right behind each other). I think we were running 1.2 or 1.3 ata.

 

Is there something we could try to narrow down the issue? Anyone else experienced this when flying with someone on comms? Unfortunately I'm in a different location so I can't get on his machine to fly it myself, or that's what I'd try. Any ideas?

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Could be a few things - have you 100% ruled out the loadout/fuel, radiator positions etc...?

 

He could be over correcting the controls so bleeding speed? 

Does he trim the aircraft correctly?

Has he turned on an auto feature that you guys don't have on?  (Not sure what server you playing on) - maybe he has some Auto RPM or some other Auto-Engine function on? 

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We have ruled out radiator, were flying d9's and don't touch the rads (think it's all auto anyway on the d9) but the same on other planes we fly too, even the bombers he'll always be running behind and we run the same rad and trim settings.

 

This happens on cbox and locally hosted campaign that several of us fly in with full-real settings, so that should over-ride anything he has in his settings.

 

I think tonight, if I get a chance, I'll set auto-level at a set ata, and have him catch up and run next to me in auto-level and have him take a track recording so I can see everything he's doing all the way from take off. That should allow me to see what's going on. Unfortunately he's in a different locale so I can't fly his pc or watch him fly to test.

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If it's really not any of the things you mentioned (trim, rads, fuel (makes more of a difference than some think), loadout), I would wonder if they consistantly damage their a/c on takeoff or something like that.  I cant see having a poor connection or a slow computer causing such problems

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When you start the mission make your friend flight lead and formate on him.  

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Have you all tryed auto level, to rule out pilot error?

And yes, D9 has some sort of rads/cowling flaps control. It's not manual, and it's not auto either, bether check airplane notes to clarify.

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I would say he might watch the ball to be centered especially in 109s. 

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LOL. Last night we were climbing out at around 330 I think in the d9, but I can't think of any aircraft or scenario where he is not slower than me (and everyone else when we're all in formation).

 

The only reason I thought perhaps it could have been a network issue is one time I ran a campaign hosted on my machine and he was going extremely slow and his speedometer was actually reading incorrectly. We were flying side-by-side at the same pace and his IAS was showing something like 50 to 100 kph faster than mine, and he was also jittering back and forth. I doubt this is related to the ongoing problem though as I'm pretty sure it was just my machine not able to keep up. On a public server or with someone else hosting, it whouldn't be an issue that singles him out.

 

51 minutes ago, Hajo_Garlic said:

If it's really not any of the things you mentioned (trim, rads, fuel (makes more of a difference than some think), loadout), I would wonder if they consistantly damage their a/c on takeoff or something like that.  I cant see having a poor connection or a slow computer causing such problems

 

There's no way that everytime he takes off in every plane every time he flies, he's damaging his airplane in such a way that is reducing his speed so that he can't keep up with me at the same settings, and he's not getting a tech tip showing something is damaged. You need to understand, we fly together a LOT. This is a consistent problem, as in every single time.

 

43 minutes ago, 307_Tomcat said:

I would say he might watch the ball to be centered especially in 109s. 

 

I would tend to think the issue has something to do with this, except I'm not using my rudder either, most of the time, particularly in the d9 as it flies pretty straight unlike the 109's.

 

53 minutes ago, DD_Arthur said:

When you start the mission make your friend flight lead and formate on him.  

 

That doesn't solve the issue of him being inefficient and at a severe disadvantage in a fight.

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3 minutes ago, BazookaMan said:

 

That doesn't solve the issue of him being inefficient and at a severe disadvantage in a fight.

 

 

Well, maybe he's playing this as a game and you want it to be a job.

 

 

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11 minutes ago, BazookaMan said:

That doesn't solve the issue of him being inefficient and at a severe disadvantage in a fight.

 

Er...yes it does. 

If all you heroes are charging ahead and leaving this guy trailing behind then your whole flight is inefficient and at a severe disadvantage in a fight.

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So just for kicks and grins, let's talk internet connection differences anyway, even if we all feel they can't be a factor.

 

What type of service is your buddy using compared to the rest of you, and what results do you get when you all run connection tests?

 

What ping rate shows for all of you, consistently?

 

How far apart are you located and have you tried servers closer to him (lower ping for him)?

 

There was an old combat flight sim which shall not be named, where some folks talked of a lag cheat, whereby if one were to induce network latency on their end, their opponent would overshoot and be ahead of them. Could be an old whiners tale tho, I never saw it myself.

 

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As for a network test

1 hour ago, Jaws2002 said:

 

 

Well, maybe he's playing this as a game and you want it to be a job.

 

 

 

He's as frustrated about it as I am. It's hard to have fun with your buddies if you can't keep up with them without overheating your engine.

 

48 minutes ago, DD_Arthur said:

 

Er...yes it does. 

If all you heroes are charging ahead and leaving this guy trailing behind then your whole flight is inefficient and at a severe disadvantage in a fight.

 

So if you're plane is 20kmh slower than it's supposed to be, you don't consider that a disadvantage? And having to run in combat or even emergency mode to keep up with someone in the same plane that is running comfortably in continuous is okay? Strange.

 

14 minutes ago, Stoopy said:

So just for kicks and grins, let's talk internet connection differences anyway, even if we all feel they can't be a factor.

 

What type of service is your buddy using compared to the rest of you, and what results do you get when you all run connection tests?

 

What ping rate shows for all of you, consistently?

 

How far apart are you located and have you tried servers closer to him (lower ping for him)?

 

There was an old combat flight sim which shall not be named, where some folks talked of a lag cheat, whereby if one were to induce network latency on their end, their opponent would overshoot and be ahead of them. Could be an old whiners tale tho, I never saw it myself.

 

 

I'll have him run a speed test asap, maybe tonight. He's in Dallas, and I'm in Houston, and our coop campaign host is in California. I have no idea where Combat Box is hosted. That's primarily the two servers we fly on. I don't know how to see ping in-game, unless you want me to ping the ip from the os.

 

But like you, I expect it is not a network issue if only for the lack of having ever heard of this or experiencing it myself. That's the main point of asking here, is if anyone was aware of such an issue, or if it's even possible from a netcode standpoint, of which I know next to nothing about.

 

I suspect it's a piloting issue. I hope to verify that tonight with a side-by-side recording on his end that I can watch.

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Perhaps his stick is spiking and making control surfaces tremble?

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4 minutes ago, Nocke said:

Perhaps his stick is spiking and making control surfaces tremble?

 

This is something I was thinking too, or his twist rudder was drifting and he was rolling to compensate or something. I followed him with the chase cam for a bit last night and his rudder seemed straight, but his aircraft seemed to be wobbling around more than normal given the light turbulence on that particular flight. I'll have him check to see what the actual input is doing. Thanks for the useful input. I suspect that once I see a track of his cockpit view, I'll have a much better idea of what's going on.

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There may be some sort of overlooked explanation but, if I remember correctly, I did hear DerSheriff make a comment in one of his videos that if there's some sort of net or server issue planes will fly "comically slow" despite what the speedometer says.  You may want to see if you can contact him to see if he remembers this and can elaborate.  

 

I did definitively see this one time myself. 

I was flying a Yak 1.69 at 480-500kph and was escorting a Pe-2 that was on comms with me.  He was going 400-450kph.  We took off in formation and initially were close together. After a few minutes he was leaving me behind and arrived at the target with enough time to take 2 drop passes of 250kg bombs and turn for home by the time I got there.  I literally had to turn in front of him to cut off his course and run at full throttle.  Still, he overtook me and left me behind. For about 3-4 more minutes, it seems whatever was going on sorted itself out and I was finally able to catch up.  During the whole thing, he reported never going above 450kph and I never went below 450kph. 

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You know I've had this issue occasionally as well. We will run the same exact settings and plane specs and I will always be slower than pug and rico. Super strange. Could be pilot error, but I consider myself a professional. 🧐

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Posted (edited)

Occasionally, there are words thrown into server chat (and yes, I've said them too) about (ahem) "digital performance enhancement".  It usually comes down when a player truly knows they should have out run an enemy but were still 'got'. 

The more I think about it, I want to say most of the time something like this discussion could be the culprit. 

 

The other thing to consider however, is that this may be something that won't really go away until the day everybody can get a 'beast' computer out of the thrift shop for $20 and the world is fully converted to unlimited usage fiber network.  

Edited by Mobile_BBQ

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If he use rudder a lot that will slow him down. 

Way back I had a cheap joystick and got to the habbit of holding it with a twist to the left and 

compensate with the stick. 

Using rudders to adjust speed in formation is a well known action and it works like a small airbrake if you compensate with stick

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ask him to record his flight and get him to have periodic good looks inside his cockpit, he can then post it on YT as unlisted and send you the link. That way you maybe to identify any problems which are causing him to lose energy, so you can offer him some meaningful feedback.

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Notwithstanding a network issue or flying problem on behalf of your friend...  If as flight lead you don't allow enough time for everyone to be in position before you start flying your heading and climbing out at a slightly reduced power setting, then the guy in last place will be forever trying to catch up and often end up stuck underneath at a distance sucked behind you.

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Hi,

 

as flight leader you should run in a 109/190 about 1.0 ATA less than normaly, so your wingman`s can fly with the normal setting.

 

You want to fly with your wing at cruise settings, than fly 1.0 ATA and your wingmanns`s run 1.13 ATA, or less what they needs to hold the position in formation

You want to fly with your wing at compat settings, than fly 1.2 ATA and your wingmanns`s run 1.30 ATA or less what they needs to hold the position in formation

You want to fly with your wing at save fuell settings, than fly 0.9 ATA and your wingmanns`s run 1.0 ATA or less what they needs to hold the position in formation

 

Works perfect in MP

 

regards

 

Little_D

 

 

 

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Posted (edited)

Could be a joystick problem so he over correcting level flight or his joystick have twist grip causing small visually  not noticable deflection on rudder causing him lose speed, it is quite easy to drain 10-20kph with non precise joystick.

You can do a test; set loadout, fuel, trim, rads...etc same as his than select auto level.

Edited by EAF_Ribbon

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Posted (edited)
17 hours ago, BazookaMan said:

 

I'll have him run a speed test asap, maybe tonight. He's in Dallas, and I'm in Houston, and our coop campaign host is in California. I have no idea where Combat Box is hosted. That's primarily the two servers we fly on. I don't know how to see ping in-game, unless you want me to ping the ip from the os.

 

 

Tell ya what: I'm in Virginia so if you want another pilot along in your flight just to get more comparison data, I'd be happy to join up for a flight or two.  I have a pretty decent amount of online formation flying under my belt (really my favorite thing), both leading and following, and can help observe and even collect a TacView track for offline analysis if that might help.  If your buddies are cool with a new person tagging along (I'm an unofficial honorary Texan if that matters) PM me with flight times and server details if ya want.

 

Starting a 4-day weekend here and I'm on mandatory R&R per the wifey, so it's a good opportunity. 

 

Edited by Stoopy
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either the hotas has issues (set deadzones and see if that helps, it did for me before my t16000 finally bit the bullet) also we mentioned trim, dunno from the heart but does the FW have stabilizer trim? If yes check and fiddle with that first, even if slightly if he has to counter the stabilizator he will lose speed (at least if i know it right) 

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Posted (edited)

Just as a point of reference on connection issues...  Myself, and two of my BlitzPig friends often play race sims, and in Project Cars 2 (not really that great, but so easy to host online) one of the guys, who happens to live in Israel will occasionally get what he calls "the slow bug".  We can be in identical cars and in the turns we will stay close, but when he hits the straight sections we will leave him standing for dead.   It comes and goes with no rhyme or reason.

Edited by BlitzPig_EL

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 So in short, no one really knows but other people have also experienced the same issue. 


Also I have seen this problem before when flying formation with friends. I had a 100mb cable connection with identical set up of everyone else yet I was slower. This did not always happen and was more of a now and then thing. I presume some planes just spawn with more drag like a random numbers game for some reason. If not then the problem is differing fuel loads of the planes. 

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On ‎7‎/‎3‎/‎2019 at 5:15 PM, =AVG77=Mobile_BBQ said:

There may be some sort of overlooked explanation but, if I remember correctly, I did hear DerSheriff make a comment in one of his videos that if there's some sort of net or server issue planes will fly "comically slow" despite what the speedometer says.  You may want to see if you can contact him to see if he remembers this and can elaborate.  

 

I did definitively see this one time myself. 

I was flying a Yak 1.69 at 480-500kph and was escorting a Pe-2 that was on comms with me.  He was going 400-450kph.  We took off in formation and initially were close together. After a few minutes he was leaving me behind and arrived at the target with enough time to take 2 drop passes of 250kg bombs and turn for home by the time I got there.  I literally had to turn in front of him to cut off his course and run at full throttle.  Still, he overtook me and left me behind. For about 3-4 more minutes, it seems whatever was going on sorted itself out and I was finally able to catch up.  During the whole thing, he reported never going above 450kph and I never went below 450kph. 

 

I have also seen this myself when I hosted a campaign with my and my (same) friend. He was about 100kph slower than his IAS was showing and his plane stuttered back and forth, almost like vibrating lag. Very weird. So yeah, I can vouch for this.

 

On ‎7‎/‎3‎/‎2019 at 5:17 PM, JgonRedcorn said:

You know I've had this issue occasionally as well. We will run the same exact settings and plane specs and I will always be slower than pug and rico. Super strange. Could be pilot error, but I consider myself a professional. 🧐

 

Interesting.

 

15 hours ago, SYN_Requiem said:

Notwithstanding a network issue or flying problem on behalf of your friend...  If as flight lead you don't allow enough time for everyone to be in position before you start flying your heading and climbing out at a slightly reduced power setting, then the guy in last place will be forever trying to catch up and often end up stuck underneath at a distance sucked behind you.

 

That makes sense except no one else, including me when I'm not flight lead, has an issue. I really enjoyed your videos btw, very good info.

 

 

Whoops, accidentally posted before I was ready, but maybe this works better as a separate post.


Last night we both got into g4's and I had him lead. We climbed to 1k and he set ATA 1.1 and autolevel. I formed up tight and we were able to match speed at same ata perfectly and quickly, no problems and no need for him to run slower or me to run faster to keep up. However, he did realize (I'm not sure how he didn't notice this before) that he had double bound vr zoom and either trim up or down, so I'm willing to bet that is what was causing the issue.

 

In the future though, we will keep an eye out for a more obvious sign of network weirdness in case it becomes a problem for him.

 

Thanks for everyone's help and input.

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Have him run a maximum speed test in his aircraft of choice. Exact same settings, same map (and season), and then run tests back to back in multiplayer and single player.

 

This should give a better sense of if its him and his piloting technique (which CAN make a difference) or a controller issue or if its purely a multiplayer issue.

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On 7/3/2019 at 8:07 PM, BazookaMan said:

regardless of what planes we're flying. Same settings, he may be 10 to 20 kph slower.

slide incicator, trims, and rudder.

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Unless a one time (random) thing, it is a Pilot error or a joystick fluke.

I'm from South America, I normaly fly on EU/RUS/US servers with people from diferent countrys in EU, and on the same settings there is no issue on keeping formation, and I guess I'm always at least 100-150ms "slower" on my connection.

Also when you have a spike on internet connection you might see the other plane jerk back and forth a bit, but the overall speed remains the same.

Diferent trim and rads and/or unnoticed control input is probably the cause.

Cheers

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Most likely cause is poor formation technique.

 

Your friend is probably in pure pursuit all the time.

 

A good understanding of pursuit curves is required to start with.

 

After that, some basic formation technique to maintain formation station are required.

 

The first rule is fix the horizontal before the vertical. When climbing, the "sucked" fighter must fix his position on his lead's 3-9 line BEFORE he attempts to fix the vertical. That means lowering the nose or going level until AHEAD of lead's 3-9 and then initiating a climb.

 

Formation turns in combat spread or similar formation must be tactical turns and not formation turns in place.

 

A video of your formation in flight will quickly disclose the issue.

 

Some guys just refuse to do the hard work required to keep in proper formation and stay in girl scout trail no matter what you do.

 

 

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I was watching a tacview track last night of 6 of us in formation. He was keeping up okay but when I switched to first person view, I noticed he was bouncing or wobbling so I suspected a rudder sensitivity issue. Sure enough, I had him check his yaw sens, and it was at 0% and no dead zone (he has twist rudder). I had him set it to 100 and enough dead zone to fix the weighted hand and small play in the stick and we flew on pub for a bit. I could tell he was in much better control. So it seems this was probably the primary issue in addition to the secondary issue of the trim/stab being double bound I mentioned before.

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Outstanding! Glad you got it worked out.

 

I want my due credit for being first to suggest TacView to see the details. Preferably a cookie of some sort.

😋

 

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