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Mikoyan74

Red Baron Film 2008

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If anyone wants some inspiration to load up Flying Circus look no further then the 2008 Red Baron Movie available on Amazon for £2!

Yeh there's the usual love story but there is also some great flying scenes.

Also some ideas for new paint schemes!

Oh an Sabaton music video with film snippets as well!

 

 

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So much lost potential... could have been such a better film. 

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Posted (edited)

Its an ok movie, However they tried white washing Richtofen so much. Pretty sure he said to aim at the pilots and take them out quickly on real life. In that movie he is like dont kill the pilots..... Id actually love to see a full blown hollywood movie thats from his point of veiw but that will never happen.

Edited by Gamington
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Posted (edited)

Les Indigènes, a French TV studio who specialise in mixed CGI/live action historical productions made this documentary for ARTE (the French/German cultural channel):

 

 

La Guerre des As means “War of the Aces”. It’s made of two 1-hour episodes and, as you can see, the CGI is very good. The acting is passable and it has some interesting interviews with WWI historians throughout.

 

Sadly it was aired only twice on ARTE in November 2018 and is now exclusively available for purchase in France and Germany through the ARTE dedicated web player (with no DVD release planned), which lacks English subtitles. I started work on those at one point, but seeing how this has flown almost entirely under the radar (pun intended), it’s not worth the effort.

 

https://boutique.arte.tv/detail/la_guerre_des_as

 

What I do eventually intend to do is make a compilation of the best CGI scenes and put them on YouTube, then hope I don’t get copyright strikes.

Edited by J5_Hellbender
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4 hours ago, Gamington said:

Its an ok movie, However they tried white washing Richtofen so much. Pretty sure he said to aim at the pilots and take them out quickly on real life. In that movie he is like dont kill the pilots..... Id actually love to see a full blown hollywood movie thats from his point of veiw but that will never happen.


No, that's what he told to his pilots to do when teaching them. He was raised from puberty to be a Prussian officer,  his views and his professional conduct did not get in each others way. Much of the late movie dialogue is, in fact, lifted from what his family remembered him to be.

What they did in that movie was give him character development, starting as Immelman wearing Richthoffen face and developing him into something resembling real MvR in the end. 

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Posted (edited)

"I suppose I had smashed his engine. At any rate, he made up his mind to land.  I no longer give pardon to anyone.  Therefore, I attacked him a second time and the consequence was that his whole machine fell to pieces...."  ~Richtofen's account of shooting down and killing No.19 squadrons 2nd lt. Richard Applin. 

Edited by -332FG-Garven

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Perhaps I heard wrong then, I did after all learn more about him years ago.

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The movie did a disservice to Lanoe Hawker, making him look like a beserker rather than measured leader and also put him in a better a/c than the DH2.

 

MvV shot him in the head from behind as he was retreating. It was war so fair game, I would just rather have seen it portrayed in fair memory to the actual man.

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This film is.....dreadful. 

 

Almost as bad as 'Flyboys'.

 

Almost.

 

In my opinion.

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Posted (edited)

The film was to the WW1 aviation what Amadeus what to history of Mozart and his times - a good movie (ab)using historical characters to tell good story.
(Besides, it's not that a better WW1 aviation movie was made, with possible exception of Dawn Patrol).

Lanoe "Always attack" Hawker? Given the 7 second on-screen presence he had, they gave very good summary of the man.

Hawker introducing to and promoting aggressive attitude among RFC pilots was a much neeeded contribution, but does not exactly make him air combat tactician.

The air scene where Hawker appears makes no sense at all, but would make much more sense if RFC were flying D.H.2s and F.E.2.b rather than S.E.5.s and R.E.8. Almost as if the scene was written for propoer planes then someone swapped models for something more meanancing.

 

4 hours ago, -332FG-Garven said:

"I suppose I had smashed his engine. At any rate, he made up his mind to land.  I no longer give pardon to anyone.  Therefore, I attacked him a second time and the consequence was that his whole machine fell to pieces...."  ~Richtofen's account of shooting down and killing No.19 squadrons 2nd lt. Richard Applin. 


First, that's popular bio heavily edited by propagandists (if not ghostwritten) to be more "patriotic". Second, emphasis should be on the "no longer" part. RFC personnel continuing to shoot from the ground when allowed to land, and German pilots shift in attitude from "let them land and go PoW" to  "kill them so thay don't hurt anybody else" are described earlier in the book. The starting attitude of MvR (like his teacher Boelcke before him) was to let enemies land when practical; it changed when it'was proved to be mostly unpractical. 

Edited by J2_Trupobaw

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Slightly off topic, so apologies in advance:

 

I have never understood why no one has ever made a film about the exploits of Lt Arnold and the crew of the Whippet tank 'Musical Box'.

 

You wouldn't even need a script - just follow the facts.

 

 

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Trupo, my personal opinion was that by missing out the inferior DH2 and the manner of his death it gave the appearance of the cool master swotting down the barbarian through skill. It again softened MvV to make him seem like a reluctant killer when it’s likely he wasn’t, propaganda or not.

 

Didnt hawker help with the development of the foster mount? I remember reading that somewhere.

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Posted (edited)

Hawker was instrumental in many developments in aerial fighting.

 

The more interested one becomes in the air war of '14 -'18, the more amazed one becomes by the sheer speed of development, and at how often the same names crop up over and over again in association with that development.

 

Hawker himself was a victim of that speed of development.

 

He fell because his machine was hopelessly outclassed by the aeroplane flown by his opponent, an aeroplane that was faster and carried twice the armament.

 

I recall reading that Richthofen fired in excess of 900 rounds before making his kill.

Edited by SP1969

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True. Also MvR flew his superior plane correctly and to its strengths.

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It would be an interesting exercise to design a scout / fighter with modern computer assistance and modern knowledge, but limited to what would have been technically possible to manufacture for a given date - say mid 1917 -  and see what would emerge as the 'ideal' given the benefit of hindsight and to contrast the result with the types that were actually produced.

 

 

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1 hour ago, J2_Trupobaw said:

RFC personnel continuing to shoot from the ground when allowed to land, and German pilots shift in attitude from "let them land and go PoW" to  "kill them so thay don't hurt anybody else"

Kind of hard to keep shooting from the ground when Applin was in a SPAD VII

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The complete failure of the ABC Dragonfly would, I think, have thrown the British into complete chaos had the war continued into 1919.

 

I actually wonder whether the concept of the single seater scout would have survived, given the fearsome nature and overall adaptability of the F2b.

 

Just saw the developer's thread. 

 

Ain't it luverly? 

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Posted (edited)

IIRC both French and British were going to replace all their scouts with  Martinsyde F.4 Buzzards (the S.E.5.a done right) in 1919.  It would surely be interesting match for all the BMW-powered monoplanes Germans were planning.

Edited by J2_Trupobaw

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Posted (edited)

I liked brown vs richtofen more as a movie though that movie was had some good parts but needed more action And I thought it was incorrect about some stuff like I said before. Blue max though is the best movie for ww1 airplanes even though its fictional.

Edited by Gamington

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Posted (edited)

Blue Max has Lozenge Fokkers and old farts in their 40s playing 20 years old kids. And story built around really absurd misconceptions about german aristocracy/officer corps relationship. 

One thing  love about der Rotte Baron is it shows the ww1 pilots for the kids they were. 

Edited by J2_Trupobaw

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Posted (edited)

I thought Red Baron was a terrible movie.  Not too much to say about it, so I'll just cut to the chase.  Richthofen, no charisma;  Joseph Fiennes wearing Lucy in the Sky with Diamonds Sunglasses; Hawker, a fat guy with a shaggy beard;  Lena Headey, loved you as Cersei, but quite a skippable performance here;  A love story that was even more out-of-place and contrived than the one in Midway;  Typical video game-ish dogfight scenes.  I watched this movie at the height of my interest in WWI air combat and couldn't have been more dissapointed.

 

Around that same time I watched The Blue Max and Aces High.  I thought both were much better than Red Baron.

Edited by SeaSerpent
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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, J2_Trupobaw said:

IIRC both French and British were going to replace all their scouts with  Martinsyde F.4 Buzzards (the S.E.5.a done right) in 1919.  It would surely be interesting match for all the BMW-powered monoplanes Germans were planning.

 

 

However, the RAF rejected the Buzzard, post war, and stayed with the Snipe, even as Sopwith was going out of business.

 

I wonder why, since, on paper, the Buzzard was infinitely superior?

 

@ SeaSerpent

 

'Aces High' is, essentially, 'Journey's End' with aeroplanes.

 

High time for a remake, although Hollywood would wreck it. 

 

The recent version of 'Journey's End' was, however, excellent.

Edited by SP1969

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Posted (edited)

Because Snipe was cheaper and they were looking to reduce their air force post-war. Buzzard would be winning arms race  no longer going.
 

38 minutes ago, SeaSerpent said:

I thought Red Baron was a terrible movie.  Not too much to say about it, so I'll just cut to the chase.  Richthofen, no charisma;  Joseph Fiennes wearing Lucy in the Sky with Diamonds Sunglasses; Hawker, a fat guy with a shaggy beard;  Lena Headey, loved you as Cersei, but quite a skippable performance here;  A love story that was even more out-of-place and contrived than the one in Midway;  Typical video game-ish dogfight scenes.  I watched this movie at the height of my interest in WWI air combat and couldn't have been more dissapointed.

 

Around that same time I watched The Blue Max and Aces High.  I thought both were much better than Red Baron.


The Red Baron:
First air combat scene: 1916, everything is colourful, scene opens with throwinga wreath for downed enemy pilot, no one (important) gets killed, the music is uplifting. Knights of the air attitude at full swing. 
Second air combat scene: 1917 - everything is dirty grey-brown-green except colourful JG1 planes, which look like pasted from different movie. Fighting is usually brutal and efficient. Pursuing Knights of the air bull$#t (landing next to downed enemy for a chat) means MvR isn't there to save a friend, who goes down in flames. Music is tense.
Third combat scene (1918) - everything is dirty grey, fighting is airquake brutal, KotA BS is nowhere to be found. Romantism of flying is completely gone, only serious business left. Music is mourning. 
Notice also how out of original party of four pilots from first scene, one less is alive in each next one, until MvR remains alone for last one (then dies off-screen - PoV party is dead, there is no witness). 

Excellent illustration of how air combat (and pilot attitudes) changed from pioneer Eindecker days (when Boelcke did brave enemy AAQA to drop letter from British pilot on his airfield) till great battles of 1918, and of rate of attrition among German aces. Yeah, this moveie does not bother itself with being faithful to small details; it paints whole picture.

 

Edited by J2_Trupobaw

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I'm loving the skin on the aircraft 1:21 into the music video!

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2 hours ago, J2_Trupobaw said:

Because Snipe was cheaper and they were looking to reduce their air force post-war. Buzzard would be winning arms race  no longer going.
 


The Red Baron:
First air combat scene: 1916, everything is colourful, scene opens with throwinga wreath for downed enemy pilot, no one (important) gets killed, the music is uplifting. Knights of the air attitude at full swing. 
Second air combat scene: 1917 - everything is dirty grey-brown-green except colourful JG1 planes, which look like pasted from different movie. Fighting is usually brutal and efficient. Pursuing Knights of the air bull$#t (landing next to downed enemy for a chat) means MvR isn't there to save a friend, who goes down in flames. Music is tense.
Third combat scene (1918) - everything is dirty grey, fighting is airquake brutal, KotA BS is nowhere to be found. Romantism of flying is completely gone, only serious business left. Music is mourning. 
Notice also how out of original party of four pilots from first scene, one less is alive in each next one, until MvR remains alone for last one (then dies off-screen - PoV party is dead, there is no witness). 

Excellent illustration of how air combat (and pilot attitudes) changed from pioneer Eindecker days (when Boelcke did brave enemy AAQA to drop letter from British pilot on his airfield) till great battles of 1918, and of rate of attrition among German aces. Yeah, this moveie does not bother itself with being faithful to small details; it paints whole picture.

 

 

 

Wow, a War movie that shows a bunch of idealistic kids transforming into hardened, cynical veterans!  Amazing! 😀

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35 minutes ago, SeaSerpent said:

 

 

Wow, a War movie that shows a bunch of idealistic kids transforming into hardened, cynical veterans!  Amazing! 😀


That's pretty  much what happened to IRL aviators as a group. The movie is very good at showing it through mod changes rather than shoving it down viewers throat.

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Posted (edited)
12 hours ago, J2_Trupobaw said:


That's pretty  much what happened to IRL aviators as a group. The movie is very good at showing it through mod changes rather than shoving it down viewers throat.

 

yeah, it happened in Rise of Flight, the video game, too! 

 

Seriously though, look at any picture of MvR.  You can see it in his eyes that he has something of the Cobra in him.  A guy of priviledged aristocratic birth, trained to be a warrior from a young age.  Pretty hard core dude.  He was a product of that same ruthless, militaristic Prussian culture that led to two world wars and cost 10's of millions of lives;  when I read his book many years ago, that's exactly the impression I got.  How much that was the real MvR vs a ghostwritten propaganda peice, I don't know.   It's hard to separate the real man from the myth, I know, but the way this movie depicts him as some modern Millenial sensitivity kind of guy...nah, not so believable.  I guess we'll never know what the real man was like, and I'm not opposed to a movie that challenges popular perceptions, but the guy depicted in the 2008 movie was just flat and didn't seem to be credible. 

 

Oh, and when they end the movie without the final battle, I was like that's it?!!!

 

"I only attack when I know I can win".  Best line from the movie.  Good advice to virtual combat flight simmers.  Other than that, a movie worth skipping in my opinion.

Edited by SeaSerpent

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I enjoyed pure display of that old crates , so rare view newdays. I do enjoy that in Red Baron 2008 for sure.

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11 hours ago, SeaSerpent said:

Oh, and when they end the movie without the final battle, I was like that's it?!!!

 

I was like - at least they didn't try to make it a 10 minute unbelievable CGI dogfight which is completely made up, because nobody knows for sure what's actually happened.

Besides, "the final battle" is in every movie (with battles). I'm glad it's not in this one.

 

But of course YMMV. There could've been a "final battle" a la Flyboys... 

13fc145e8c568763e207ee58e968609c.jpg

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Posted (edited)
14 hours ago, SeaSerpent said:

 

yeah, it happened in Rise of Flight, the video game, too! 


Damn we took the realism in the flight simulations to the new levels. Not sure if I should be proud or horrified.

The movie still illustrated it very well IMHO. I'd rahter watch it than read RoF forum if I wanted to study the phenomena :P.


 

Edited by J2_Trupobaw

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I think Trupo might like this movie 😛

 

to be fair it’s miles better than Fly Boys. Didn’t the producers for that movie accidentally bring on a fake historian who got loads of things wrong like radial engines rather than rotary etc?

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On 7/2/2019 at 8:13 AM, SP1969 said:

Slightly off topic, so apologies in advance:

 

I have never understood why no one has ever made a film about the exploits of Lt Arnold and the crew of the Whippet tank 'Musical Box'.

 

You wouldn't even need a script - just follow the facts.

 

 

 

Same here,  I'm waiting for a film on the exploits of Plank and J13 mamochka.

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I look on these films like 'Flyboys' and 'The Red Baron' as pure entertainment... I enjoyed watching them with that mindset.

If you view every war film that comes out expecting them to be a faithful and accurate historical depiction of your favourite hobby you are going to be sadly let down.

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I couldn't even enjoy them on that level because the script, acting and characterisation were absolutely rank. If they had been films on other subject, say the life of Renoir, they would have been equally dreadful.

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On 7/2/2019 at 2:24 AM, J5_Hellbender said:

Les Indigènes, a French TV studio who specialise in mixed CGI/live action historical productions made this documentary for ARTE (the French/German cultural channel):

 

 

La Guerre des As means “War of the Aces”. It’s made of two 1-hour nder the radar (pun intended), it’s not worth the effort.

 

https://boutique.arte.tv/detail/la_guerre_des_as

 

Damn that looks awesome!

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Not so sure how credible it can be when MvR looks like Spanky McFarland.

 

image.jpeg.aa3e943a9352e2d48c56df1e5154addf.jpeg

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MVR shot down Roy Brown.  Twice.

Not only that, he saved his life after the crash.  Then they got to have a conversation about girls.

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Its a fact really, any war movie folk like us are passionate about is usually a load of guff and nowadays CGI fests too, we are the minority, the general public are the paying crowd for such movies and they want puerile CGI and romance, from any genre :)

Red baron 2008 was grim, and I tried to watch it all the way till end, maybe I will one day, switch off my accuracy head and just try to find something else about it that's good ... wish me luck.

I have Blue Max on disc, Dawn Patrol, have a copy of Howard Hughes "Hells Angels" ... Perhaps Zeppelin (1971) might be a good atmospheric watch, any other good WW1 aviation movies?

Given that Peter Jackson founded his high fidelity WW1 plastic scale construction kit series Wingnut Wings and loves the era, maybe he will one day give us the WW1 movie we all seek?

 

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