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B12

Concern about FC2 and slow development

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Honest, these are my legitimate concerns ... want this franchise to succeed, really do, bought all for the whole series apart from the tank thing i have absolutely no interest in whatsoever, but cant help but feel all the money i at least have paid is getting invested into the other series.

Its a given i suppose that FC1 is a bit of a gamble, but by any standards the progress is extremely slow, nobody knows quite what's happening or where its going in the future, just that 2 more planes are just around the corner and the map too, there has not been one hint of the map yet or when its going to appear? Not a screenie even, its quite concerning ... it really is :(

I know legitimate complaints are frowned upon here, but we all paid same price for FC vol 1 as the previous franchise in series and its just been dribs and drabs imported ROF aircraft with nothing much more to do than the occasional online WW1 Air Quake the community here provides.

Without being rude, when will we know if FC vol 1 sold enough to warrant more?, its a legitimate honest customer question.
 

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I think the project has been progressing quite well considering it is a fresh project from a new design house.  There's just two more aircraft plus the map to go if I recall.  If you follow the weekly updates you will have seen screenshots of the map too, which are considerably more detailed than the RoF one.  

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Interesting, I concede I've missed seeing these map updates, its something we should as founders be getting links to ... can you provide those links please?

I honestly can not find one image of the WW1 map yet.

Look, I knew this was gonna happen, guys like you really are not helping, you dont even have FC vol 1, yet you felt compelled to parachute yourself in here to have your say, whats that all about?
Butt out please, we are both founders of the series, I am of FC vol 1 and concerned ... nothing more, once you do become a founder of FC vol 1 you will have reason to interject.

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Dev Diary at least has

4 minutes ago, B12 said:

Interesting, I concede I've missed seeing these map updates, its something we should as founders be getting links to ... can you provide those links please?

I honestly can not find one image of the WW1 map yet.
 

 

Dev diary 217 at least:

 

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2 minutes ago, B12 said:

Interesting, I concede I've missed seeing these map updates, its something we should as founders be getting links to ... can you provide those links please?

I honestly can not find one image of the WW1 map yet.
 

 

Dev Diary 217

 

AM_08.jpgAM_01.jpgAM_04.jpg

 

 

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Posted (edited)

Are there any pics of the trenches yet, the front line?

Also, its not just the map, that goes without saying, its just the whole doubt of the series some of us are concerned about, at this point its almost a given we'll get two more seaters and eventually this map and thats it ... its up to the community to provide anything meaningful to do in sim, or expect pat wilson to do it for us for free, fair play to the guy and awesome, but you can see how this is going to play out, if pats going to do it for free, then our beloved producers are not really going to put much coinage into it ... can you see where I'm going with this?

Those screenies are hardly a map either, just some generic buildings ... legitimate concerns is all.

 

 

Edited by B12

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30 minutes ago, B12 said:


Those screenies are hardly a map either, just some generic buildings ... legitimate concerns is all.

 

 

 

This picture contains buildings that are far from generic, as discussed and comparisons made in previous posts on this subject matter.

 

AM_01.jpg

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For fear of sounding like the old Communist party guy in the Chernobyl bunker scene: have faith. It will be rewarded.

 

Flying Circus Volume 1 is mainly a multiplayer experience. If you’re looking for a historical campaign or career, you’re going to be left wanting for now. What FC is good for at this very moment already, is getting (re)acquainted with the old machines and their intricacies. Because of a few fundamental differences between FC and RoF, dogfighting is at times a very different proposition.

 

I’m not free of concerns either. I wonder how the two-seaters will make the transition to FC, especially with the new damage model, tighter gunnery and still apparent lack of g forces on gunners. Remains to be seen.

 

In the end, understand that we are still in early access and that certain aspects of the game are still subject to change and improve, especially if they could directly benefit the more lucrative WWII portions of the sim.

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Dude it's still in preorder phase. It's not a complete game. Have patience. 

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It’s always interesting when the sky is falling crowd are directly refuted with posts, content and links, yet they cling to their own opinion and tell everyone else to butt out with their stupid facts and stuff......

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I had not realized that we have 8 planes ... but damned if we don't.

 

We have the Pfalz D.IIIa, Alb D.Va,  Fokker D.VII and Fokker DR.I

We have the SPAD XIII, Sopwith Camel, Sopwith Dolphin, and SE5a

 

First cut at a campaign is on me.  It will start in Sept 1917 to the end of the war.  There will be far too many Bristols and Hannovers in the sky but ... oh well.  Maybe FC2 will have some corps recon :) 

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On 7/1/2019 at 6:29 PM, J5_Hellbender said:

 and still apparent lack of g forces on gunners.

 

 

@J5_Hellbender

Latest Dev Dairy quote " In addition to the models, we're working on the important features like more detailed pilot's physiology effects. Fatigue caused by a high G stress, (in)ability to bail out and other such things."

 

I asked whether that would impact 2 seater gunners in FC, but no reply as yet.

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6 minutes ago, US103_Baer said:

Latest Dev Dairy quote " In addition to the models, we're working on the important features like more detailed pilot's physiology effects. Fatigue caused by a high G stress, (in)ability to bail out and other such things."

 

I wonder about the fatigue thing. If that for WWII? Would a pilot get fatigued so quickly for them to model it? I imagine it would have to be a very long dogfight for any pilot to be fatigued. Altitude fatigue would be a different matter, but at least for WWI we seldon go above 4000m.

 

The G forces for gunners would be welcomed. This I think is paramount. Could you link the topic so I can upvote it? With the new bullet dispersion and flying and gunning still available in Il-2, I will keep my distance from two-seaters (unless I'm doing recons).

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3 minutes ago, SeaW0lf said:

 

The G forces for gunners would be welcomed. This I think is paramount. Could you link the topic so I can upvote it? With the new bullet dispersion and flying and gunning still available in Il-2, I will keep my distance from two-seaters (unless I'm doing recons).

 

 

This.

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Posted (edited)
11 minutes ago, SeaW0lf said:

 

I wonder about the fatigue thing. If that for WWII? Would a pilot get fatigued so quickly for them to model it? I imagine it would have to be a very long dogfight for any pilot to be fatigued. Altitude fatigue would be a different matter, but at least for WWI we seldon go above 4000m.

 

The G forces for gunners would be welcomed. This I think is paramount. Could you link the topic so I can upvote it? With the new bullet dispersion and flying and gunning still available in Il-2, I will keep my distance from two-seaters (unless I'm doing recons).

 

Fatigue i don't know, but if they can limit  pilot activity based on G forces it sounds promising for gunners

Post is near the bottom of page 3

 

Edited by US103_Baer
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2 hours ago, SeaW0lf said:

Then I think we are safe in our WWI crates regarding g-forces fatigue for pilots (sigh...).

Just fly at 16'000 ft in an open cockpit for an hour and then see what you can do. You won't need g-forces (yes, for the game we do need a GForce) to be totally wasted. My bets are that after such, you won't make it to the turps anymore.

 

In real life, they hardly pulled more than 3 g on those crates during air combat. Speed comes down pretty quick if you pull those planes hard. Any prolonged maneuvering (besides a downward spiral) will make you slow.

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19 minutes ago, ZachariasX said:

Just fly at 16'000 ft in an open cockpit for an hour and then see what you can do. You won't need g-forces (yes, for the game we do need a GForce) to be totally wasted. My bets are that after such, you won't make it to the turps anymore.

 

In real life, they hardly pulled more than 3 g on those crates during air combat. Speed comes down pretty quick if you pull those planes hard. Any prolonged maneuvering (besides a downward spiral) will make you slow.

 

I just mentioned it, you probably missed. But you are not talking about gforces, but altitude sickness or fatigue, and as I said, we hardly go above 4000m (or even 3000m). For WWI, total waste of resources. And as the guy mentioned, he's frequently pulling 5gs and not sweating about it.

 

So many other things to do.
 

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The reason it’s not a total waste is both BoX and FC1 are the same game. So the work on WWII fatigue automatically ports over to the WWI stuff. 

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1 hour ago, SeaW0lf said:

 

I just mentioned it, you probably missed. But you are not talking about gforces, but altitude sickness or fatigue, and as I said, we hardly go above 4000m (or even 3000m). For WWI, total waste of resources. And as the guy mentioned, he's frequently pulling 5gs and not sweating about it.

 

So many other things to do.
 

 

Who is "we"?  In RoF, I routinely flew at 3000, 4000, or above.  So did a lot of players that I'm aware of.  Lots of good cannon fodder at 2 to 3000 meters that mistakenly think they have the high ground.  And like HerrMurf said, don't forget that FC is just one module in a primarily World War II game.  So I think the introduction of some physiological effects is a good thing.

 

 

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3k is high enough for an untrained human to really feel the difference (BoX oxygen masks activate on 2.2).

I had a chat with aviation medic once about how come WW1 pilots routinely went over 3k an up to 6k without oxygen; he said it's possible to rise hemopglobines level in blood through conditioning. Interesting how this will be handled.

(although refuelling and rearming sounds much more interesting!)

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1 hour ago, SeaSerpent said:

So I think the introduction of some physiological effects is a good thing.

 

But we are not talking about gforces. The research and application would be different, perhaps overlapping just in some cases with gforces (from the top of my head). I would not mind to see some physiological effects at high altitudes, but at this point I think there are more significant things to do, like visibility, gforces for gunners and such. Even on the reloading thing I would not mind to wait.

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Again, SeaWolf, I think you need to look at the bigger picture

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18 minutes ago, SeaSerpent said:

Again, SeaWolf, I think you need to look at the bigger picture

 

Well, we'll see. We don't even know what they mean by gforces fatigue and in which cases they are applying it. I just thought it was relieving to see a real life pilot saying it is not a sweat for a 63 years old guy to pull constant 5gs on his plane.

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I think most of the complaints about G forces in Il-2 have to do with the ability to push negative G's.   The most common evasive tactic by Bf-109 and Focke-Wulf pilots in this game is to bunt the plane an unlimited amount of times, into red out, then back, over and over and over.  No matter what the developers do, I doubt Flying Circus pilots have to worry about "fatigue" from positive Gs for the reasons already posted.

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On 7/2/2019 at 7:13 PM, J2_Trupobaw said:

3k is high enough for an untrained human to really feel the difference (BoX oxygen masks activate on 2.2).
 

 

What constitutes training..

 

On 7/2/2019 at 7:13 PM, J2_Trupobaw said:


I had a chat with aviation medic once about how come WW1 pilots routinely went over 3k an up to 6k without oxygen; he said it's possible to rise hemopglobines level in blood through conditioning. Interesting how this will be handled.

 

 

So if I play this game at a higher elvation ( eg. living in Denver) I should have no issues.

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Being patient guys, honest :)

Good points here, the G force thing was probably least of my concerns though, LOL.

I guess my biggest concern for FC1 is that's it been said that if this sells well enough we *might* get a FC2 with more content and that *might* include what RoF had with career modes ETC, my concern is ... that as it stands it might not sell enough because FC1 is so basic, just a few aircraft and eventually a map ... and yes I'm sure it will be a good map too.

But I've always thought and believed in the philosophy of  *Build it and they will come* If we had promise of something with more substance than what is forecast for FC1 officially it might well sell more and thus help to give us FC2 in the future ... just thinking aloud here.

Nothing I can do really but voice my concerns, really am keeping my fingers, toes and limbs crossed that FC does come to fruition ... WW1 aviation has become my passion in flight simulation more and more over the years.

But its looking bleak for FC2 IMHO, drip releasing some aircraft and an eventual map for FC1 is not what I would imagine is a recipe for high sales ... Sales traditionally tail off after any release and then folk get fickle and forget about it, so that just leaves us hardcore fans, who bought FC1 in the early phase to account for its sales ... some who were on the fence are probably thinking, will wait for FC2 and we get more content, and that might never happen, but might have had there been more content than just some planes and a map for FC1 ... just saying.

Time will tell.

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3 minutes ago, B12 said:


But its looking bleak for FC2 IMHO, drip releasing some aircraft and an eventual map for FC1 is not what I would imagine is a recipe for high sales

 

It’s early access.  If you have concerns about ANYTHING that happens during early access, there is a very simple solution.  DON’T BUY EARLY ACCESS GAMES!  The map is not being “dripped”, the map has been almost the last thing released in every access module that they’ve done.  

 

Seriously.  Just stop.  It’s early access.

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7 minutes ago, BraveSirRobin said:

 

It’s early access.  If you have concerns about ANYTHING that happens during early access, there is a very simple solution.  DON’T BUY EARLY ACCESS GAMES!  The map is not being “dripped”, the map has been almost the last thing released in every access module that they’ve done.  

 

 

You state the obvious :)

Yes Yes Yes, but can you not see where I'm coming from?, why does it have to be an argument with some folk, why cant it be a discussion, please read my post again to see my concerns.

And once again, keeping everything crossed FC1 sells well enough in order we can just get the opportunity to buy FC2 with more content in the future ... that's all i really want and hope for as an enthusiast of this genre.

I'll be 60 on Sunday mate, bought more early access than you might imagine, in all cases and especially for a genre like this, have offered my feedback, thats all this is, just feedback and perhaps some hopes too.

Chill out.

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What are you expecting your feedback to achieve? The developers aren't going to change their development schedule for FC1 at this late stage, and either it sells well enough to justify FC2 or it doesn't.

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3 minutes ago, B12 said:

 

You state the obvious :)

Yes Yes Yes, but can you not see where I'm coming from?

 

Yes, it’s coming from someone who should not have bought early access.  

Chill out.

 

 

Even if the dev team agreed with your priorities, there is nothing that they can do about it now.  The development schedule was probably already in place when the project was announced. 

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What BSR said :).

Also, BoS was much more troubled during early access, with exactly same concerns as yours and more (and forum wars eclipsing anything ever done on RoF pages 😮 ). It turned out fine.

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4 hours ago, AndyJWest said:

What are you expecting your feedback to achieve? The developers aren't going to change their development schedule for FC1 at this late stage, and either it sells well enough to justify FC2 or it doesn't.

 

And you dont care, you and Robin boy would like this this to drag on for an endless futile debate, that usually happens on such forums as these.

Scraps ensue, nothing gets done.

I've moved on from this, have just made some observations, couple of you guys have so much time invested in this forums chat and post count ego's  you want to see me begone or something?  or drag it down to an argument for your own petty hobby of troll and hopefully get me banned or something, bring it to level of Admin intervention and then point at me ... I've made very reasonable points.

Leave the usual forum bullying aside for a moment and lets please discuss the future of FC from IL2 team.

I'm here because I hope to see Fc1 and 2 become a success, that is all, have been attacked by a couple, but accepted by the majority, lets just appreciate we would all like like this series to succeed without attacking each other ... PLEASE.

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B12, just look what you've done! You've made me agree with Brave Sir Robin :blink:. I shall never forgive you.

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4 hours ago, AndyJWest said:

What are you expecting your feedback to achieve? The developers aren't going to change their development schedule for FC1 at this late stage, and either it sells well enough to justify FC2 or it doesn't.



Where did you get this info from?

Why the fan boy rhetoric, Andy?

OK lets assume no more FC, no more FC2, they are not going to change as you presume, and that therefore must mean no FC2 ...You dont seem to care, its more about ... hey I'm a supporter of these guys ... do you actually play any of their stuff? FC especially, don't think I've ever seen you online?

Crikey man, where does your loyalty lie :( With the playing Sim and its future or a company?

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5 hours ago, B12 said:

But its looking bleak for FC2 IMHO, drip releasing some aircraft and an eventual map for FC1 is not what I would imagine is a recipe for high sales ...

 

Well, the drips only drop for those who payed for the preview. The others will get their big bang, or medium bang only, maybe, depends on expectations. I enjoy the increments, that's why I payed for the preview.

 

But sure, I'd like to see the map.

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Have at it, made my points and it seems none have been considered, might as well give up on this franchise altogether.

I mean really, when loads of the regulars do not seem to care about where FC is going (half the recent guys  in this debate) Its time to bail and sit back and watch what they do best, argue amongst themselves about futile arguments, on this topic and multitudes of others.

Over and out ... will check back when there is no FC2 ... maybe :)

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38 minutes ago, B12 said:

Have at it, made my points and it seems none have been considered, might as well give up on this franchise altogether.
 

 

All of your points have been answered, but it boils down to this: Flying Circus is EARLY ACCESS  it hasn't been released yet. Every 'drip drip' release of aircraft has been scheduled in the 'road map' for the project from Day 1. There is absolutely nothing untoward that's worth getting so uptight about. When the game is finally released the devs will look at the sales and then, only then, will a decision be made about FC2.

So there's the answer to your question "Without being rude, when will we know if FC vol 1 sold enough to warrant more?, its a legitimate honest customer question."

 

And guess what? That will probably be an Early Access project too.

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Posted (edited)

I totally give up, no doubt Jason will be along soon to promise and confirm again the very vague ambiguous road map of FC1 that clearly or less clearly states we get more content if FC1 sells well.

Thats the bottom line. Its all I've promoted FFS.

I mentioned from the beginning, Build it and they will come, therefore ... put more into FC1 and it will sell more and put money in the bank for FC2 ... nobody's listening though, its all about lets have a go at someone new they deem is attacking the dev company they love and provide forums for :(

Entirely not the case ... really give up with some of you :(

Hey, Guys, see those icons in my avatar to the left of this post ... I'm a Flight Sim enthusiast too and entitled to my opinion, have bought all the other stuff bar Tank thing in order for this company to succeed ... all I would like to see is as much to be ploughed into FC 1/2 as those projects has. Not maybe stuff.

Thats all.

Edited by B12

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, B12 said:

I totally give up, no doubt Jason will be along soon to promise and confirm again the very vague ambiguous road map of FC1 that clearly or less clearly states we get more content if FC1 sells well.

Thats the bottom line. Its all I've promoted FFS.

 

I mentioned from the beginning, Build it and they will come, therefore ... put more into FC1 and it will sell more and put money in the bank for FC2 ... nobody's listening though, its all about lets have a go at someone new they deem is attacking the dev company they love and provide forums for :(

Entirely not the case ... really give up with some of you :(

 

You do realise there is list of features, right?

 

https://il2sturmovik.com/store/flying-circus/

 

  • 10,000 sq. km. map of the Arras sector in WWI including cities, towns, airfields and famous No-Mans-Land.
  •  Ten legendary WWI aircraft to fly - Spad XIII, Sopwith Dolphin, Sopwith Camel, RAF S.E.5.a, Bristol Fighter, Albatros D.Va, Fokker Dr.1, Fokker D.VII. Pfalz D.IIIa and Halberstadt CL.II.
  •  Also includes the Fokker D.VIIF, Bristol Fighter F.III and Halberstadt CL.II 200hp engine modifications.
  •  Numerous types of buildings, hangars, ground vehicles and scenery objects to enhance mission environment.
  •  Detailed and precise exterior models of aircraft with 4K skins.
  •  Full-scale 3D interior of each aircraft that looks amazing in VR.
  •  Fly as an observer/gunner in properly equipped aircraft.
  •  Custom skins support.
  •  Quick Single Mission generator.
  •  Two multi-player modes of gameplay - Cooperative and Dogfight.
  •  Realistic ballistics modeling.
  •  Realistic gun-sight visuals and operation such as the famous Aldis sight.
  •  Detailed physics model and performance of aircraft.
  •  Detailed damage model to simulate damage to planes made of lighter materials.
  •  Mission Editor support.


In other words: what's lacking is the map and we have 8 (+1) out of 10 (+3) planes already flyable. Then it's feature complete. There's nothing more to "put into".

 

Beyond FC1, it's all speculation.

 

Either way, I understand that you're impatient and really want FC1 to be released, but you'll need to be a bit more patient. Since we have just seen the first Bristol and Halberstadt screenshots and the time it takes between first screenshots to actual release is usually around one to two months, I'm going to go out on a limb and say we'll have them by September/October — maybe November at the latest, seeing how there's two of them, how there's the summer in between and gunners still need to be developed (they weren't in the screenshots). I would also bet that we'll have the Arras sector map before the end of year.

 

If you truly cannot wait, then by all means jump back into RoF till then. We're still around.

Edited by J5_Hellbender
Edited because apparently I can't count to 10

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