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26 minutes ago, 76IAP-Black said:


For what reason do you think they have choosen BON before Pacific?!!!! 

you dont need to answer it, just think about it.. just a bit :big_boss:

 

The post is from June though :)

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With no offense meant to what is a great series:

 

At this point everyone with an interest in PTO has to make their own determination if it will happen in this series or not, irregardless of their own amount of personal desire for it to happen.  

Also at this point, there are far more indicators that it will not happen, in my view, and I'm going to stop torturing myself with the unrealistic hope that it will.  

Additionally I would not want to do any new members of the user base the disservice of leading them into believing it is a possibility, as that would simply be cruel IMHO.

  • There have been many elemental technical challenges that the team would have to overcome, these have been laid out and are well known.
  • No groundwork or roadmap strategy has been laid out in how to overcome those challenges - example, committing to support for an AI B-17, B-24 or Lancaster in BoN would have shown that there was a committed strategy to overcome the 4-engine obstacle. But there is not.
  • Even if a strategy to overcome these limitations were laid out it would require additional development funding by way of selling existing product and add-ons, but let's face it, that's already been going on for the last few years - nothing changes with regard to that today or tomorrow.  
  • With no roadmap or obvious business plan to magically increase the funding for such transformational development, the other problem is that this future development won't become magically cheaper down the road somehow, instead it will likely have even higher costs which are being deferred, placing it farther out of reach.  
  • Faced with this, and the competing requests for other new areas which far more easily fit into the existing land-based, Eurocentric tactical paradigm of the series, isn't it far more realistic to assume that we will see expansions for  Battle of (Britain/Norway/Poland/South France/Italy/Malta/Africa/Fill-In-The Blank) until as much of the European areas as possible are covered?  I would think so, and existing direction of the series tends to confirm it. 

 

I'm not trying to be disparaging or anything - I intend to enjoy this series as much as I can and will continue to do so while now better recognizing it for what it is, but I do believe that a great deal of angst is caused by having unrealistic expectations based on the lack of a frank and honest assessment of reality within all the  PTO speculation.  It's OK to have hopes, dreams and high expectations in life as long as it's an area that we exercise some control over (example from personal experience: ugly guy wins over beautiful woman by way of his sense of humor, personality and well-muscled buttocks) but this, clearly, is NOT one of those scenarios.  The product is what it is, and what it becomes will be based on many other factors, only some of which are mentioned above, many others alluded to or read between the lines from official posts, and all of which for the very large part are out of the user base's hands. 

 

Fly on regardless.  

 

Edited by =[TIA]=Stoopy
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Until there is some official announcement (which Jason has already said will happen), I think we can just leave it at this for now and get behind a terrific theater and planeset that is offered:

 

 

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I cant see the PTO happening now. Personally, my feelings are that the engine cant handle it. BoN is pretty much every aircraft asked for by the community for the last 4 or 5 years sans the heavies. The devs dont want to do North Africa, Italy or the Med which would be a perfect testing ground for carriers and it would include most if not all of the BoN plane set. My feeling are they cant do carriers justice, not through lack of skill, but a limitation of the engine. Torpedoes still wont be making an appearance. BoN is just a new map and every wishlist aircraft. No new gameplay just more of the same. Its disappointing and shows, me anyway, that the engine isn't really capable of much more than what we already have. 

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Jason said he would talk about the PTO later on. It's be nice to have more clear answers about it's status and future in GB series. I think the uncertainty is what causes many people to fear, if there was a definite yes/no I think it would settle alot of nerves.

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I wouldn't be surprised, if it did happen, it would be announced as a totally new and separate game built fresh from the ground with a brand new engine under the hood.  They're going to need to do it some day any way, nothing in software land lasts forever.

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I have no idea of the current roadmap, nor does anyone outside of the 777/1C offices. Everything else is pure conjecture but let's lay a few things to rest:

 

1. There is currently no plan to address heavies and it has been stated quite clearly by this team on more than one occasion. The AI scripts are the limiting factor and would drag the game into a slide show.

2. Production and implementation of PTO is do'able in the current engine - with the caveat that vehicle numbers and AI scripts will continue to be of a tactical nature and probably not anything strategic. You're not going to get 400+ AC over Pearl or Midway. This team has demonstrated enough mastery that they can complete the project and it is not too broad for them.

3. The primary limiting factor holding up PTO is finding and interpreting original Japanese documentation. The boats were not a major concern last time I spoke to a DEV directly.

4. The Dev's are not going to BoB or North Africa anytime soon purely out of respect for their agreement with the CloD boys. You gotta respect that.

5. There has never been any word about a desire to go to OR avoid Sicily, Italy or the Med.

6. PTO has been and continues to be Jason's ultimate goal. We should wait for his planned statement, which he mentioned in the BoN thread, before jumping off our individual ships into the sea of despair.

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3 hours ago, II/JG17_HerrMurf said:

5. There has never been any word about a desire to go to OR avoid Sicily, Italy or the Med.

6. PTO has been and continues to be Jason's ultimate goal. We should wait for his planned statement, which he mentioned in the BoN thread, before jumping off our individual ships into the sea of despair.

Agreed, but still it seems that had PTO been only delayed once more, Italy would have been a more logical stopgap instalment. 

6 hours ago, Rolling_Thunder said:

I cant see the PTO happening now. ... Italy or the Med ... would be a perfect testing ground for carriers and it would include most if not all of the BoN plane set. ... Torpedoes still wont be making an appearance. BoN is just a new map and every wishlist aircraft. No new gameplay just more of the same.

 

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4 hours ago, II/JG17_HerrMurf said:

I have no idea of the current roadmap, nor does anyone outside of the 777/1C offices. Everything else is pure conjecture but let's lay a few things to rest:

 

1. There is currently no plan to address heavies and it has been stated quite clearly by this team on more than one occasion. The AI scripts are the limiting factor and would drag the game into a slide show.

2. Production and implementation of PTO is do'able in the current engine - with the caveat that vehicle numbers and AI scripts will continue to be of a tactical nature and probably not anything strategic. You're not going to get 400+ AC over Pearl or Midway. This team has demonstrated enough mastery that they can complete the project and it is not too broad for them.

3. The primary limiting factor holding up PTO is finding and interpreting original Japanese documentation. The boats were not a major concern last time I spoke to a DEV directly.

4. The Dev's are not going to BoB or North Africa anytime soon purely out of respect for their agreement with the CloD boys. You gotta respect that.

5. There has never been any word about a desire to go to OR avoid Sicily, Italy or the Med.

6. PTO has been and continues to be Jason's ultimate goal. We should wait for his planned statement, which he mentioned in the BoN thread, before jumping off our individual ships into the sea of despair.

Hi Murf!

 

1.Big bombers could be done as AI with simplified FM and DM model, with much less details on exteriors and no details on interiors at all.

Maybe modders can try to do this and see how it goes.

 

2.i agree but some engine improvements and optimization would be neccerssary.

For Midway carrier ops there is no need for huge battles as attacks were performed in waves up to 20-30planes from US side and a bit more defending from IJN side, island attack was big in numbers but can be reduced in playability terms.

Would love that "flight to nowhere" mission :)

We'll need torpedo tech too!

 

3. Last time translations were the problem, i thougt it would be solved by now 🤷‍♂️

 

6. Yes it is his dream, but business is business so it doesn't guarantee PTO will happen despite him being lead producer, there is dev team, engine limitations and 1C that have shares in decision making.

 

With second delay i don't see PTO will happen even after BoN but yes i'm looking forward to see Jason's statement on this.

Shame, i'm huge fan of this simm, bought everything so far to support them and made giveaways even purchasing single expansion is a big hit on my salary but it was something that will support my dream of PTO one day so there is my dissapointment source.

Now when i don't see PTO on horizon my support on that level is no longer possible, i probably will buy BoN one day  as i really like that map but not in close future and will buying only what i will use/fly unlike so far.

 

Still dev team has my biggest moral support and i'm glad responses on BoN announcement layed excellent results.

 

 

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12 hours ago, II/JG17_HerrMurf said:

6. PTO has been and continues to be Jason's ultimate goal. We should wait for his planned statement, which he mentioned in the BoN thread, before jumping off our individual ships into the sea of despair.

 

We'll just see if any upcoming statement either puts a fresh little carrot at the end of the stick or if there's going to be any actual meat on the bone.  If it's just a reiteration of stating that they'd "Like to" or "Plan on" getting to the PTO, then that sounds like an orange vegetable to me. 

 

Heightened skepticism seems called for here since it's curious why 1C would not take advantage of such a blatant opportunity for business when opportunity knocks, given that the user base here couldn't be any more clear and vocal about the desire for a Pacific campaign, at least without getting banned en masse.  

  

I certainly don't want anyone jumping ship into a sea of despair either, by the same token I don't intend to remain a hapless paying passenger on the Fantasy Train to DreamWare Town.  

 

So, We'll just see.

 

Edited by =[TIA]=Stoopy

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Read through the original statement a few years back as to why PTO delayed, then read through a message from Jason I already linked above from this very September. I think you will pretty much find the answer in there -- awaiting formal word and clarification, but I think you will very likely find them saying that it is everything to do with lack of Japanese aircraft data to the standards they want and need (at this point in time and possibly indefinitely). I could be wrong, but I don't think it was an accident that Jason wrote what he did in September in the midst of people arguing for Pacific. 

 

...we will all just have to wait for a formal updated clarification...

 

I for one really appreciate and love WW2 aircraft, and although I have my favorites, I will get behind and be grateful for any endeavor they make in this field.

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and it looked so good when that first morse message come out lol i was 110% sure its pearl+midway and all carrier battles in 1942. now for me its clear we aint gona see pto long long time or ever, no mather what they say i aint gona get my hopes up.

Edited by 77.CountZero
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The Pacific War, not only took place on the water, but also on land. Seen by Allied side, a whole lot of airplanes ready. So you can say BOP is already 30% ready

1280px-Second_world_war_asia_1937-1942_map_de.png

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On 11/26/2019 at 2:02 PM, EAF_Ribbon said:

A place to cry! 😂

 

My few tears: lost hope we'll ever get PTO in this game, either due to game engine, lack of data on Japp planes or being a too big project for this team.

If resources were problem BoBp with it's popular planeset was greates opportunity to go on PTO after.

Two delays are clear indication it won't happen.

However PTO or even Med with carrier ops in VR with il2 simm quality dream still persists, never mind who publish it!

 I know is not WW2 or even a prop plane, but have you tried Heatblur's F-14 Tomcat for DCS. It has carrier ops, that in VR, is the most immersive thing I have ever done with any flight sim....

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4 minutes ago, CastorTroy said:

 I know is not WW2 or even a prop plane, but have you tried Heatblur's F-14 Tomcat for DCS. It has carrier ops, that in VR, is the most immersive thing I have ever done with any flight sim....

I have Hornet 😄 and it's awesome!

Still i prefer ww2 and completition that il2 provides, that's why this broke my heart!

There is nothing better than carrying a torpedo on ww2 plane and sunk ships/carriers 🤯, better than sex i'm telling you!

Edited by EAF_Ribbon
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6 hours ago, 77.CountZero said:

and it looked so good when that first morse message come out lol i was 110% sure its pearl+midway and all carrier battles in 1942. now for me its clear we aint gona see pto long long time or ever, no mather what they say i aint gona get my hopes up.

It didn't help, that the code was sent on Nov 25, announcing a message for Nov 26, the same day a Japanese task force departs for Pearl Harbor...

11 minutes ago, EAF_Ribbon said:

I have Hornet 😄 and it's awesome!

Still i prefer ww2 and completition that il2 provides, that's why this broke my heart!

There is nothing better than carrying a torpedo on ww2 plane and sunk ships/carriers 🤯, better than sex i'm telling you!

 I can understand that, maybe not better than sex, depends on the women I guess. LoL. 

Edited by CastorTroy
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I'm confident that a Asia/Pacific map will be proposed in the future for the "Great Battles" series.

 

What theatre of operations in the Pacific (or in Asia) could be played on a full-scale map?

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7 minutes ago, Redwo1f said:

 

Yup, seems PTO won't be a thing for a looong time, and if!

Would be nice to hear details about pto development obstacles.

 

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1 hour ago, Redwo1f said:

 

 

Beat me to it.  

 

Takeaways: 

  • "Pacific product...not possible..."
  • "Not making the Pacific is small potatoes..."

 

So although we all like to fantasize about a PTO effort, the hope that had been dangled from the end of a stick is no longer even a carrot, but now a (small) potato.    Bleh.

 

Discussions about potential maps and planes sets etc. at this point is nothing more than idle hanger chat on a rainy day, and based on what was stated, may contribute more drama to the Producer's life, thus delaying hope further...

 

 

Edited by =[TIA]=Stoopy

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At this point, it looks to me like Battle of Normandy is going to be focusing on AI work fairly heavily. Battle of Bodenplatte required new aerodynamics to cover the regime that aircraft were operating in at that time. Anyone recall all the weirdness that happened when they opened up the ceiling? With the new AI coder and the new twin engines we're getting, I'd expect the same with the AI. 

 

That said, at this point, I'd expect at least one more game between BoN and any Pacific map. I'm not sure the Cliffs of Diver carve-out is going to last much past Battle of Normandy, as the engine is showings it's age. Unless North Africa is a significant hit, I'd expect use to potentially see an Italian or Mediterranean game after Normandy. Or, if the AI development gets far enough, we might even see a Strategic Bombing campaign map. I still think a Battle of Schweinfurt would be an interesting campaign, if the AI engine becomes able to handle heavies.

 

But all of that will depend on what happens in the next couple of years. Battle of Bodenplatte was announced almost two years ago. We can expect it will be some time before we know where Battle of Normandy leaves us. 

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I do not expect any Pacific/Asia map for that game before 2023, 2024 or even a later date.

 

Nevertheless, my question remains the same : what theatre of operations in the Pacific (or in Asia) could be played on a full-scale map?

 

1. Guadalcanal makes poor sense as the distance from Rabaul (Japanese base of operations) to Guadalcanal (American fleet) is too long. The map would be too big. Undoable in terms of gameplay.

 

Early maps in the war chronology, like

 

2. Pearl Harbor

3. Coral Sea

4. Midway

 

make more sense as the distances between enemy bases (CV for the Japs) are theoretically closer to each other.

 

In early 1942, the Brits were defending

 

5. Singapore

 

and the Japanese aérodromes of the IJA were also close enough to Singapore… (weren't they), thus Singapore may be a realistic map in that game.

 

You may say all of these is only gossip… and so? I'm just wondering about your opinions on the above five suggested maps. If whether or no Guadalcanal is feasible (item 1 in my list), if whether or not the Japanese were close enough to Singapore (item 5) and then Singapore would be potentially considered as a realistic module for "Great Battles". Etc.

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@343KKT_Kintaro, with respect you're a bit late to the game.

We've gone rounds and rounds on this over an extended period of time, in many threads - use the search function.

 

This conversation is dead for the foreseeable future.

 

 

 

 

 

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"The" game ? you mean this game that is in fact the third generation in the IL-2 series since 2001?

 

I possess Pacific Fighters since 2005.

 

I possess Cliffs since 2011.

 

I posses Stalingrad since 2015.

 

And I was a pilot in the 343 kokutai as early as 2006. If you prefer to put it that way : I'm late to your forum. But in no case I'm late to "the" game…

 

Did the question of feasible full-scale maps already arise in the present forums? show me where, I'll read it.

 

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Cool.

 

There was a question in my last comment

 

Did the question of feasible full-scale [Pacific] maps already arise in the present forums? show me where, I'll read it.

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Since we are all just dabbling in speculation anyway, here is my thinking at this point in time.

 

BoN will be the last "Battle of" installment using the current game engine.  We are at a capabilities dead end.  Going beyond small unit tactical ops is just too much for the old thing to handle.

 

The ever increasing desires of the simming community can not be realized by patching up this old war horse and sending her out for another go.  And here we hit the very solid wall of economic reality.  Flight simulation is a tiny backwater in the larger world of computer gaming, with a commensurately tiny pool of publishers willing to take the risk of funding a game engine and Sim that will allow us to have the things we want out of a title in this day and age.

 

What the answer to this is, I have no clue, but for now we need to temper our expectations for any large scale maps, massive bombing campaigns, or grand fleets squaring off in the Pacific.

 

They are not possible in any future, on this engine, under current budgetary constraints.

 

Sad, but true.

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Very interesting answer, BlitzPig_EL, thank you for that honest response.

 

What does the development team think about "BlitzPig_EL" views?

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18 minutes ago, 343KKT_Kintaro said:

Did the question of feasible full-scale [Pacific] maps already arise in the present forums? show me where, I'll read it.

 

Welcome to the forum.  There's an entire sub-forum here about the Pacific:

 

https://forum.il2sturmovik.com/forum/106-pacific-theater-discussion-and-assistance/

 

...and when you are through reading that,  as Gambit said if you use the handy search function you will find more additional chatter back here in the General Discussion forum.

 

P.S. I'm a relative newbie here and I started with Sublogic Flight Sim since 1983,  first "combat" sim was Fighter Duel on the Commodore Amiga since 1985 (and it was Pacific-ish).  😀

 

 

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1 hour ago, 343KKT_Kintaro said:

Very interesting answer, BlitzPig_EL, thank you for that honest response.

 

What does the development team think about "BlitzPig_EL" views?

@BlitzPig_EL

 

You've said that a number of times, but I'm just not seeing it. It's not like the original IL-2 which started having issues tracking model elements at 40,000ft.

 

Right now the only issues I'm seeing in large scale operations are the AI load not handling large numbers of thinking units.

 

The graphics engine can handle very long view distances with the latest updates, and we've got the high altitude operations seen in most bomber offensives. And while I'd like mid-mission saves myself, Air-starts bypass the 2h attention span issue.

 

They already have CoG behavior from fuel tank draining, and drop tanks and tank selection is being worked, albeit at an apparently lower priority. 

 

What is missing? What is this show stopper you are seeing? 

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1 hour ago, 343KKT_Kintaro said:

"The" game ? you mean this game that is in fact the third generation in the IL-2 series since 2001?

 

I possess Pacific Fighters since 2005.

 

I possess Cliffs since 2011.

 

I posses Stalingrad since 2015.

 

And I was a pilot in the 343 kokutai as early as 2006. If you prefer to put it that way : I'm late to your forum. But in no case I'm late to "the" game…

 

Did the question of feasible full-scale maps already arise in the present forums? show me where, I'll read it.

 

As i remember;

-Midway

-Okinawa

-Coral sea

Don't remeber forth one on the list.

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Just now, EAF_Ribbon said:

As i remember;

-Midway

-Okinawa

-Coral sea

Don't remeber forth one on the list.

 

Simply count the number of items in this comment of mine:

 

 

Cheerio!

 

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2 hours ago, 343KKT_Kintaro said:

I do not expect any Pacific/Asia map for that game before 2023, 2024 or even a later date.

 

Nevertheless, my question remains the same : what theatre of operations in the Pacific (or in Asia) could be played on a full-scale map?

 

1. Guadalcanal makes poor sense as the distance from Rabaul (Japanese base of operations) to Guadalcanal (American fleet) is too long. The map would be too big. Undoable in terms of gameplay.

 

 

 

From a personal standpoint, doing the Solomon Island battles would be a decent start. Who cares if you don't get Rabaul, even if it's been every PTO simmer's wet dream for, well, ever?

 

Plane set for the Solomons could be limited to A6M2-N, A6M3 and G4M. We already have the P-38, P-39, P-40 and hopefully a B-25...just need F4Fs and F4Us, SBDs.

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1 minute ago, Megalax said:

 

From a personal standpoint, doing the Solomon Island battles would be a decent start. Who cares if you don't get Rabaul, even if it's been every PTO simmer's wet dream for, well, ever?

 

Plane set for the Solomons could be limited to A6M2-N, A6M3 and G4M. We already have the P-38, P-39, P-40 and hopefully a B-25...just need F4Fs and F4Us, SBDs.

 

Ok, but where will be based the Japs in a map not showing Rabaul if they have to take off and fight the Yanks? Historically and realistically talking I mean.

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Buka, Kahili, Ballale, Munda, Vila...A6M2-Ns were moored at Ghizo, and Shortland Harbor.

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1 minute ago, 343KKT_Kintaro said:

 

Simply count the number of items in this comment of mine:

 

 

Cheerio!

 

Sadly seems any of those are unlikely to happen any time soon or at all.

No need to blame devs or Jason, i'm sure they're willing and up to task but when you have big publisher on your back that care only about profit and deadlines, add to it game engine limitations and budget...things go not in our favour!

Maybe with BoBp and BoN succes by expanding playerbase and making good profit publisher allows resources that could improve engine significant and they move to pto (my guess PTO would demand tech that would take double development time than BoK/BoBp)

 

Would be best if Microsoft (they like to throw money on flight sims) funds Jason and team or even cooperate with 1C, hiring more manpower so new engine can be developed as side project, by that time we get one-two current expansions and move to new game on new superb engine.

And this is where i woke up!

 

 

 

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5 minutes ago, Megalax said:

Buka, Kahili, Ballale, Munda, Vila...A6M2-Ns were moored at Ghizo, and Shortland Harbor.

 

I should have remembered at least Munda!

 

Ok, so Guadalcanal is feasible

Ok, Ribbon, roger that.

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