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Mmaruda

Flight sims and "simcade" - would it work?

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If you are familiar with racing sims, then you probably heard the term "simcade". Mostly used as a derogatory term, it refers to games like Gran Turismo or Forza - there are physics and it's sort of realistic, but not really. Now, I've been thinking, why isn't there such a title in the flight sim genre? I know there is War Thunder, but it's more of an online arena game.

 

At some point, Strike Fighters series was dubbed "sim-light", but it got a fairly large following, more so thanks to mods, but it's dead now. I feel like we only have the study-sim / survey sim option. But the lines are getting blurred, as the defining factor would be a clickable pit, since even BOS, the survey sim that it is, has very complex flight and damage model, with stuff like ground handling being a big thing to master, not to mention so many complex systems modelled.

 

But what if we could have a game, that replicated some of the complexities of flight, yet keep things simple and accessible. Say a game, that you could control your plane even with a gamepad, but certain rules of dogfighting would apply, stuff like energy fighting, having to lead your target while shooting, maybe the engine overheating when you push it, but without CEM and something that would actually envolve realistic mission scenarios instead of you being the lone hero to win the war Ace Combat style.

 

While I love realism, sometimes it would be cool to just have some fun from my couch in a relaxed manner, while still being able to feel like just a pilot, having to play to the strengths of the plane and not have 999 missiles on board. I think such a title could also work very well as an introduction for new people, especially with low cost - I mean come on, you need at least good stick and TIR to fly nowadays, while 2 decades ago, you had games like TFX or Janes US Navy Fighters that still were considered sims and these were great fun.

 

Any thoughts? I'd love to read your opinions.

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15 minutes ago, Mmaruda said:

While I love realism, sometimes it would be cool to just have some fun from my couch in a relaxed manner, while still being able to feel like just a pilot,

 

This sim got easy version just not any servers running it. I am not a real pilot, except from some planes with difficult ground handeling I personally would not call it difficult. I find it very much like War thunder easy when it comes to userfriendly

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Posted (edited)

We are indeed short of options on good sims lately...

 

War Thunder currently holds the place of what should have been this generation's big-budget flightsim. But alas, it was ill-conceived in the ways of what I came to call:

C.A.N.C.E.R. (that is: Commercially Abusive Novelty Coin Exchange Routine)

 

* skipping long discourse here - not quite in the mood for enthusiastic righteous speeches right now

 

Long story short, War Thunder is a game I would have payed up to 200 dollars for, due to the high quality production and massive scope it has.... However, the C.A.N.C.E.R. business model is something that I strongly advocate must be made illegal as soon as possible.  It is a breech of consumer rights everywhere and an offense against capitalism itself. These games profit by forming local monopolies in which corporations greedily control both supply and demand of their purpose-built captive market....   *sigh*   let's not go that way - I have  a book to write about this, one of these days

 

Anyhooze, WT is perhaps mildly entertaining for as long as the initial addiction-inducement freebies last. After that, playing "against the house" while continuing to make a point of honor not to ever feed a penny down the greed-gullet quickly becomes intensely frustrating and one finds something better to do. 

 

Eventually, many will end up here, if they're interested enough in aviation.  But there is certainly a wide gap in the involvement curve between "casual pay-to-win" and "detail-oriented hobby level simulator" these days

 

 

 

well... I am currently working on something that might address part of the simulator shortage you describe - but right now I won't say too much about it. Just that it's not really gonna be any direct competition for IL2 (rather a different approach)  Anyways, more about that later. I will certainly make it abundantly obvious once there's something worth showing.

 

 

In the meantime, if you're looking for a mouse-and-keyboards type flightsim that can be run on a laptop while waiting for stuff (like for a real airplane) - there is always Geo-FS:

https://www.geo-fs.com/index.php

 

It's mostly a civilian sim, but there are some fighter planes too - and even though there aren't any guns, there are people who do mock dogfights there all the time (often to the annoyance of airliners)

 

Cheerz

 :drinks:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by 19//Moach
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Posted (edited)

@19//Moach

War Thunder was able to make so much content because they get paid a lot from subscription and gold premium money, just like any other F2P games. If everyone would pay that 200$, WT would never make as much $ as they do now. We live in times of "live service games", it's much easier (and cheaper) to just add new content and change balance all the time while people play over and over the same game and pay for it, than it is to make new games every few years. And you are simply never able to really enjoy it for free, there will always be someone with higher tier vehicle in these games (or items in any other f2p games) so you will want to get higher and get these better items but it will never end. You will grind your way up for YEARS or pay for it. F2P games are meant to make you worst than someone who paid and is higher level/tier than you. Even some company was thinking about showing equipment of player that destroyed you so you would see his premium stuff that is so good. I think it was activision.

 

Spoiler

 

 

And for the actual topic, i think il-2 itself will simply let you play simcade on normal. Then there is tons of diffrent games, war thunder, world of warplanes, wing of pray. Star wars xwing/TIE fighter series is also cool sim/arcade like experience. You could also try Bomber Crew :biggrin: Battlestation series was also fun experience

Edited by InProgress

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From what I heard from the Racing Game Community one of the defining features of Simcade games is hat they are designed with 3. rd. person View and Controller input in mind. With70% placeholder cockpits even in premium Planes and a player base playing mostly in 3. rd. person Mouse mode War thunder fits this pretty well.

IL-2 on the other hand can be played like this but I don't think many people are doing this for too long until they get a flight stick.

 

Although if we don't want to barrow Racing sim terms, my term for War thunder is a Flight sim sim. It's where you simulating playing a Flight simulator without the hassle of getting out your vive and stick and playing the real thing.

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1 hour ago, Feathered_IV said:

Good gameplay fixes everything.

 

I got a hunch you know how truth that is. I miss old IL 2 and Hyperlobby. I am in prosess of installing it

I guess old IL 2 was as good as never seen before and that was part of the magic, but MP was less frustrating. 

SP a real treat

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I have no use for "simcade".   We already have a game where we can start an airplane with a press of 'E', and if someone wants they can turn off all kinds of simulation options.  If you want something even more simple than that, I think the games you are looking for can probably be found on an App store for your Ipad or similar tablet.

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Posted (edited)

I actually think that making "simcade", with simplified flight model and lots of SP content would be good thing for simulator market. Lets face it. Modern flight sim are expensive, and getting into them is difficult and takes some time. And time is precious in todays world. Most of the casual players arent diehard fans of aviation, but most of them will someday want to try to fly in some iconic or interesting plane, they probably saw somewhere. So why not give them something which could be learned fast and gives a lots of fun. And If they got hooked up, they could proceed to more serious simulations like BoX and DCS. There could be even something for us, "veterans". Seriously, who wouldn´t like to fly in aircraft like Su 47, MiG 39, F 22, Ta 183 etc. These types probably would´t be made is some serious sims, but in "simcades" anything is possible.

Edited by SovietAce

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3 hours ago, SovietAce said:

 And time is precious in todays world.

Working people in the developed world have more free time on their hands than ever before. The actual problem is the attention span of people and the desire for instant gratification, not how much free time they have.

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people's attention span isn't lower - on the contrary, really.... the problem seems to be that corporations insist on treating customers like retards who cannot remain longer than 5 minutes on the same activity

 

This is really due to the excessive reliance those companies place on their marketing departments. they read behavioral patterns from data which is often collected unscientifically and thus infer trends which are either inaccurate or completely wrong when compared to player preferences.

 

It's easy to think everyone is a channel-switching moron when you take for instance, people's browsing behavior on social media. None of that stuff is really too interesting, so naturally users tend to boringly flip by each item in a disinterested  manner - this is not because their attention span is low in general. data acquired from these networks only indicates the kind of mindset users demonstrate when interacting with material that has been intentionally authored and collected to be viewed in exactly this fashion. There is no reason why those same users cannot also spend hours focusing on things which simply do not register in online trend analytics (most really interesting things don't)

 

But corporate decision-makers don't really know or care much about this - so they listen to their marketing "focus groups" and whatnot and assign full credibility to whatever so called "trends" are reported. Then they force their designers to make creative decisions based upon such arguably valid concepts.... 

 

The result is the urban myth that people today have no attention span.

 

I, myself am diagnosed with the full-blown adult edition of good old Attention Deficit Disorder.  I mean, not the "every kid has it" kind that's so popular nowadays, but the real thing, which is genetic and does not go away after you're done with puberty.

Even so - I do not in any way feel compelled to switch focus nowhere near as fast as corporations seem to think everyone does. In fact, I feel mostly annoyed when faced with things that assume I would be so easily distracted.

 

People today, if anything, are (on average) much more intelligent and focused than even one generation ago - we got the internet to thank for that. gone are the days of the MTV kids who had to put up with whatever mass media shoved down their throats.  Today each individual picks entertainment that is uniquely suited to their interests.

 

the moral is:   behavioral "trends" derived from user behavior on social media tend to be more often than not, completely unrepresentative of real behavior of the same users while engaged on anything they really do care about. 

 

 

Someone please run tell all the big companies what they're doing wrong, before any more of them even consider the possibility that someone out there does NOT "see through the charade"

 

 

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2 hours ago, 19//Moach said:

people's attention span isn't lower - on the contrary, really.... the problem seems to be that corporations insist on treating customers like retards who cannot remain longer than 5 minutes on the same activity

 

This is really due to the excessive reliance those companies place on their marketing departments. they read behavioral patterns from data which is often collected unscientifically and thus infer trends which are either inaccurate or completely wrong when compared to player preferences.

 

It's easy to think everyone is a channel-switching moron when you take for instance, people's browsing behavior on social media. None of that stuff is really too interesting, so naturally users tend to boringly flip by each item in a disinterested  manner - this is not because their attention span is low in general. data acquired from these networks only indicates the kind of mindset users demonstrate when interacting with material that has been intentionally authored and collected to be viewed in exactly this fashion. There is no reason why those same users cannot also spend hours focusing on things which simply do not register in online trend analytics (most really interesting things don't)

 

But corporate decision-makers don't really know or care much about this - so they listen to their marketing "focus groups" and whatnot and assign full credibility to whatever so called "trends" are reported. Then they force their designers to make creative decisions based upon such arguably valid concepts.... 

 

The result is the urban myth that people today have no attention span.

 

I, myself am diagnosed with the full-blown adult edition of good old Attention Deficit Disorder.  I mean, not the "every kid has it" kind that's so popular nowadays, but the real thing, which is genetic and does not go away after you're done with puberty.

Even so - I do not in any way feel compelled to switch focus nowhere near as fast as corporations seem to think everyone does. In fact, I feel mostly annoyed when faced with things that assume I would be so easily distracted.

 

People today, if anything, are (on average) much more intelligent and focused than even one generation ago - we got the internet to thank for that. gone are the days of the MTV kids who had to put up with whatever mass media shoved down their throats.  Today each individual picks entertainment that is uniquely suited to their interests.

 

the moral is:   behavioral "trends" derived from user behavior on social media tend to be more often than not, completely unrepresentative of real behavior of the same users while engaged on anything they really do care about. 

 

 

Someone please run tell all the big companies what they're doing wrong, before any more of them even consider the possibility that someone out there does NOT "see through the charade"

 

 

 

 

TLDR

 

 

 

 

 

(sorry couldn't resist) 😎

 

Cheers, Dakpilot 

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On 6/24/2019 at 8:45 PM, SovietAce said:

Modern flight sim are expensive, and getting into them is difficult and takes some time.

 

I haven't read the whole thread yet, but this specifically caught my eye, as I feel it's worth addressing. Difficulty and time is something I don't think is that much of an issue. It's more of an issue for older people. When I was just student I had 3 months vacation, I had plenty of time for gaming and you can see this with younger folks even now - there have been some tough yet popular games lately. People play all those Souls games all the time, they 100% them and move to new game plus or something, that is a lot of time invested. But then again, all you need to enjoy those is a console and you can buy one for less than a HOTAS goes.

 

Say you have time and even dedication to learn a flight sim - you need a beefy rig for that, but that is just a beginning. You can get a budget joystick, but man, the moment I got my Warthog, I realised that simming has a strong pay to win aspect to it and it's hardware. Air to air refuelling on a CH Hotas was super hard, switching to the Warthog it became a walk in the park. Then you have TrackIR, expensive too, but I can't imagine doing dogfights without it. And just to relate to BOx now, I honestly feel it's impossible to take off in some planes without rudder pedals. Just switching from Pro Saiteks to CH Rudder is an exercise in frustration when it come to the Mig-3. Getting used to headtracking took some time for me, but once I did, I realised I was basically blind without it - that is a big issue too. And add to that that sims are really expensive compared to other games, if you want a full on modern experience. Sure, you can play the old IL-2 or BMS, or stick to the free stuff in DCS but... my point is - unless you have solid job, a lot of this stuff is financially out of your reach. I was only able to get serious about flight sims, when I had a descent salary and it was going well for a time, since I was mostly working night shifts and things were slow, so I had time to read a lot of stuff and learn. But once I started moving up in the world, money no longer being that big of an issue, time suddenly became a huge problem.

 

So to move this back to the question of "simcade', a game you could play with a budget rig, and entry level stick or even a pad, that wouldn't gimp you for not being able to look around with your head and that would be designed in a more traditional manner, say a single player campaign that gradually introduces stuff paired with a story to follow, that would be a good gateway into the world of hardcore sims.

 

On 6/25/2019 at 5:54 PM, 19//Moach said:

people's attention span isn't lower - on the contrary, really.... the problem seems to be that corporations insist on treating customers like retards who cannot remain longer than 5 minutes on the same activity 

 

This here is gold what you say, because it's true. But I think it's also worth keeping in mind, that in them good old days, there was far less games coming out than now. If there is any merit to the short attention span today, it can only be chalked up to the fact that, every few weeks there is a new game coming out that is super hype and you need to play it and all the youtubers are playing it and telling you to play it etc. It's more a problem of the culture that is so focused on being part of what is currently popular and being part of the conversation rather than people getting bored with games quicker.

 

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What you describe here is exactly what warthunder was to me. 

 

Got WT as a tank game, because I heard it'd be basically a more realistic world of tanks. After a while I tried the arcade air combat mode - and I loved it. It was so easy to get into - and yet if you wanted to be good, you had to learn proper tactics and situational awareness. After I became quite good at that I was hooked in WWII aviation and wanted to prepare myself for the WT sim mode and got rise of flight to train myself using a joystick. So I entered the world of combat flight sims and since didn't return to WT. 

 

Long story short: I'm with you and believe that if BoX's mouse aim mode would work as good as WTs arcade or realistic mode, AND it would be advertised as such it would be much more accessible to non simmers and capable of getting them into simming 

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Personally I hate War Thunder, simply because it's an online arena type of game. I guess when some friends almost forced me to play Falcon with them, I learned that the most important part (at least for me) in a sim, is actually being able to fly missions in something that gives you an impression of an actual military operation.

 

I did some mental time travelling to the 90's, looked up old magazines I still have and what simulators were out then and what I played myself and why I even got into IL-2 in the first place.

 

Let's face it, early sims were nothing but air shooters from a first person perspective with a cockpit view. Jane's was a super hype brand back then, but stuff like Navy Fighters, USAF, ISAF were close to Ace Combat, than DCS. I think the reason why everyone remembers this age as the glory days, was that there was a lot of titles with a vast scale of realism. Some people played Falcon and read manuals others just had fun in something like Dawn Patrol or Wings of Glory and there was no general consensus as to what was a true simulator and what wasn't. Hell, even Strike Commander was considered a sim by the reviewers from that time and I don't think anyone questioned it. And I grew up on games like this. The reason I got into serious sims like IL-2, was because there was nothing in-between. I simply had no choice. Same goes for jet sims. I found reading 500+ page manual a chore, but it was either that or no flying at all, and for some reason, the more I learned, the more I liked it. But if I was to teach a new person, even the basics of flying like a 109 in BOS, I wouldn't know where to begin.

 

But to go back to WT, I think it's good that it's there and bad at the same time. Good, because anyone can get into it and bad because it's an online game that is based around scores and unlocking stuff, rather than playing a virtual pilot.

 

Just to add some perspective too, I recently played through Ace Combat 7. The game has great single player, missions, story etc, brilliant graphics and awesome planes. But it's an arcade shooter first and foremost. That said, while combat is basically just shooting down hundreds of enemy planes with a press of a button, it's not really easy. Hell, I played through all of the series and 7 is by far the hardest of them all IMHO. The game actually does have some sprinkles of realism - you stall when doing too much Gs, your missiles are rear-aspect heaters, so you best fire them from behind and that actually forces a player to do a lot of manoeuvring, with most real life stuff kind of working. And there is also some sections where you have to show some precise flying (obligatory Ace Combat tunnel run and canyon run). Honestly, if the game was less about fighting large amounts of enemies and didn't have arsenals like 100 missiles per plane, this could actually work as something similar to those lighter sims of the 90's. Still, I think I have been spoiled, because I couln't enjoy myself like I used to with this series. Having played proper sims, there is something wrong with dogfigting in jets all the time. In BMS or DCS, it's like oh I got a bogey, I'll soft lock him and fire and AMRAAM, oh he is turning, probably shot at me and it went pitbull, do a split S fire the trash and look behind, all clear, good, reacquire and rinse and repeat. I can could probably count like 5 times I merged in any modern jet flight sim to actually have to dogfight and it's scary, cause nothing tells you there is a heater coming for your butt. Probably why I don't really play these anymore, you study the manuals, you can be good at operating the plane quite fast, if you have method of learning, but communication and situation awareness will make your brain melt. IL-2 is closer to Ace Combat, but with none of that fantasy crap, but I don't think you can enjoyably play it with realism turned down like a semi-arcade game - 1946 had more realism tuning options and I think was more accessible for that matter.

 

Anyway, perhaps that is actually what would come in handy - more realism otpions with presets - arcade: simplified flight model, guns with unlimited ammo and basically working like lasers (I don't really like the aim assist circle); simcade: no CEM, easy ground handling, easier landings, some leniency for bullet drop and accuracy and AI that pretends to put up a fight but actually has a death wish and realism mode, which is what we all fly, because we're degenerates. 😄

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On 6/25/2019 at 4:54 PM, 19//Moach said:

 

People today, if anything, are (on average) much more intelligent and focused than even one generation ago - we got the internet to thank for that. gone are the days of the MTV kids who had to put up with whatever mass media shoved down their throats.  Today each individual picks entertainment that is uniquely suited to their interests.

 

Interesting perspective. I find it to be the other way around. Now it is easier than before to stuff yourself with the same junk you seem to prefer, reinforcing the same narrow-minded ideas with those of other narrow-minded people of the same opinion which you can find abundantly online, whatever it may be. While before there was at least some cultural cocktail that was delivered to everyone and guaranteed some basic common ground.

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