Jump to content
ZachariasX

AAA gun behaviour

Recommended Posts

I noticed that AAA guns of all kind and all caliber keep training their guns while firing at aircraft. To my knowledge (and instructions by "green" folks) neither the 20 mm Oerlikon nor the Bofors would actually move their barrels while they are firing the salvo. It was just “aim and then kick the pedal” and of your salvo goes, then crank the barrel for new sighting, release the crank wheels and kick the trigger.

 

It is self-evident that your chances of hitting anything like that (besides stuff that is where lead comes down) are abysmal. Now, if you were serious about hitting something, it took a little more than aim in the blue (or: rain). You knew something. Most obviously, you knew where aircraft tried to hit. As any myopic hunter gets successful by shooting deer at the watering hole, that is where you put your guns. This gives you two cues: one, you know where the will be. Two, you know often enough where they will be coming from as topography as well as the target itself gives you ideal attack directions. What you do then, you line up your guns such that their combined aim covers much of that trajectory flown by the intrepid invader. All you need to do then is wait and let the guy do his run and as soon as he's in the range of the guns, everyone kicks their pedal and what was a futile exercise otherwise turns into something rather ghastly for the guest team.

 

This of course works best if you specifically put up something attractive in a confined place, a nice barge in a river valley or a beautiful lineup of Me262 that made three flights on their engines already.

 

In the game it is as if Shilkas are covering airfields. It is just weird. Manually operated cannons hitting free flying aircraft is just you know... not what you expect to happen. At least not when you're the one tasked for firing that real gun. This is not Quake. I mean, I remember well that is always was Champagne time if one of the dudes got lucky and hit close enough for unhooking the target drogue. (And not the tug... Often enough they suddenly would drop that drogue and fly home, cursing you and your kin on the radio. For the heavy guns, you'd use a mirror installed in the sights, projecting the aircraft flying behind you into your sights making you only a headache for the capricorns in your direction.)

 

Back then, you could well loiter around enemy airfields, not like in the game where you are zapped. It only got really interesting once you made your attack run.

 

Has anyone info on the operating regulations of the German/Allied AAA? Did they move their guns while firing? From what I see looking at the Bofors, I would guess it is impossible to to keep training the guns while firing. But anyone knows specifics?

 

  • Like 1
  • Confused 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, bzc3lk said:

The footage below has them doing both. Some stop firing (00.38) while moving and others continue firing while traversing the gun(01.03) (01.16) .

 

https://www.criticalpast.com/video/65675039034_German-Infantry_air-attack-in-Germany_SS-troops-in-Normandy-destroy-allied-tanks_Erwin-Rommel

Thanks! Good one! However you have to look more closely. You can see that the gunnat at 00:39 he fires, turns, fires, turns.. He dies not fire his salvo while cranking the wheel. The salvo is short, maybe up to a second. it is aim-shoot-aim-shoot and not tracking while hosing down the traget.

 

The heavy artillery does certainly not move much but covers pre-assigned airspace.

 

Smaller caliber Flak fires burst of max 10 rounds followed by an interval. It is more like taking one shot, releasing those then rounds and then taking a new shot.

 

The problem with hosing down the target is that you have no way to pre-assign the fuze timing. You have to rely on a dirct hit. If you cover a certain target area, you set your fuzes to explode there, much increasing your chances of a hit. Else, you can only put the gun right next to the target (and getting bombed as well in process, this makes aiming very interesting) for having the target heading straight toward you as well as going straight away from you, basically your only real chance of for hitting.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

AA guns were efficient IRL because even if they didn't actually hit the targeted airplane, they were impressive enough to deter pilots from diving into an hell of fire and steel.

 

However, given that this psychological effect is absent from our comfy gaming chairs, I'm not really opposed to having ‶supernatural″ AA guns to protect a bit the airfields.

Edited by ethelward

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
30 minutes ago, ethelward said:

However, given that this psychological effect is absent from our comfy gaming chairs, I'm not really opposed to having ‶supernatural″ AA guns to protect a bit the airfields.

The psychological effect is that you don't want to get shot down so you don't fly in a straight dive for 20s to drop bombs. So yeah, it is in the game, unless you don't care about getting shot down. It all depends how you play, if it's career mode with no respawn and perm death then yeah, i would not fly like crazy to risk crashing because i have to shoot at that truck at all costs and pull out 1m above the ground. Death even in the game is somehow psychological effect if done right. If you will be forced to wait 5min before you respawn in MP then i guess people wont be kamikadze. If death means you don't have to fly back and you are back in action much faster then yeah... all depends how you play and how game does some things.

 

I prefer to fly 15min to target, miss with only bomb i have and come back than take insane risk to drop bomb perfectly but crashing into the ground.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minutes ago, InProgress said:

I prefer to fly 15min to target, miss with only bomb i have and come back than take insane risk to drop bomb perfectly but crashing into the ground.

 

Story of my life :D

 

  • Haha 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Ace setting for AAA should not exist. 

 

Server admins that employ it in any way should be banned from their own servers.

  • Thanks 1
  • Haha 2
  • Upvote 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

@MiloMorai Interrsting, thank you! Sou you can see the 40 mm Bofors can train the gins while they are shooting. However, they basically shoot 2 rounds per second and after 5 rounds or so, they need to put in a new clip and this takes a good while. In the Oerlikon for instance, you need to grease every single round with a paintbrush before you can click it in the drum, else you risk torn and stuck shells along with a jammed cannon.

 

In the game, it appears to me that the fire rate is way to high. You can see also that if you don't get a the enemy on a good trajectory, but try hose him down abeam, you basically invite him for a return with a direct pass at you while you are reloading your gun.

 

I would say 5 AAA guns in the game can do what 25 guns would do in real life.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

As far as minor details go, this one is tiny. Valid as it may be, I can't see any reason to change anything.

  • Confused 1
  • Upvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
53 minutes ago, MiloMorai said:

Zach, notice when a new 5 round clip is inserted. There is no time lapse.

In that case they can feed clips of 4 rounds. Fast reloading system. Faster than others. Still it is three guys aiming the gin when skeed shooting. Good luck.

 

My main concern was that manually operated AAA in the sim is lethal where is much less so in the real world. To be clear, you can have 60 people shooting for two weeks at a drouges that passe them somewhat abreast and maybe one of the guy scores once. On the other hand, once you cover a designated target area, it will be effective there.

 

It's not that AAA shouldn't be dangerous to planes. By all means it can be. But I'm saying what we are having is not really what you had in the real world. Anyone in a combat sim expects the AAA always tracking and shooting efficiently you, so it may all happy and dandy for the the gamers. But it's not how AAA in the real world is effective, nor how it was applied for the most part.

 

You may not care about the oprational limitations of those cannons as long as they somehow shoot at you in the game. In practise however it makes all the difference in the world in how you deal with it. It also makes the AAA gunner not having a strategy in how they are dealing with you, them knowing their limits. The gamey Flak always opens up fire exposing them right away. If 10 AC attack, it takes one minute and there is no AAA anyore on that target. You would NEVER do that and just open up firing if you sat down there. It is as stupid of an AI as the "constantly circling AI" that everybody rants about. The Flak being most stupid while having Robin Hood capabilities, seems to be all fine then, "'cos as long as it's shooting at you it's fine".

 

But I don't think so. It will be especially imprtant once (if ever) we have heavy bombers. Flak on average will be the the main adversary. Fighter attacks happened sometimes. Flak they tasted everytime. If the game decides to use Flak according to the current doctrine (basically a Shilka, giving it capabilities it didn't have) you will not get a picture of the air combat as it was. There's more to operating a Flak regiment than "aim and shoot".

 

Many are lamenting about the sniper Flak, when in fact in a lot of cases there is no understanding how AAA was applied and put to use. Of course, when possible and under fire, gunners would train their guns on arcraft and let go. Especially when the newsreels were neraby. But this does not excuse ignorance over basic capabilities and doctrine. Also it makes you simply draw false analogies about when you could be hit.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Even "normal" ai setting for AAA is insanely accurate. In real life they were not even remotely close to that successful. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think that each visible AAA mount in game can be taken as representative of 5 irl instances of that weapon, which aren't rendered in game for performance reasons. If you picture that for each flack burst / hose of tracer we see then there are effectively 5 more (or however many more) filling the sky around you with unpleasantness, then the hit rate becomes more understandable & realistic. 

 

it's just one of those suspension of disbelief things. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, CUJO_1970 said:

Ace setting for AAA should not exist. 

 

Server admins that employ it in any way should be banned from their own servers.

Due to the way the AAA works in game, all gunners should be set to "Specsavers"

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Because every gun in WWII betrayed it's high value assets it was assigned to protect by letting loose at maximum range, that way no one would ever spot a target.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
23 minutes ago, Melonfish said:

Due to the way the AAA works in game, all gunners should be set to "Specsavers"

 

 

To be fair, we don't want them to be as bad as Scottish Fitbae referees.

 

Although Diggun has a point, I too think AAA is a bit on the accurate side relative to how successful they were irl.

It can't be easy to hit a semi-jiggy 800kph '262 with anything from the ground I wouldn't have thought.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

AAA is one of the reasons, I prefer flying in PWCG, as the AAA there is set to 'survivable'😉

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

61K-AAA gun is literally the Pe2 rear gunner of flak guns.

 

The real gun was hand cranked for elevation and traverse - and overheated and warped the barrel on a regular basis - and several thousand rounds were expended for every aircraft actually hit.

 

Ace setting for AAA guns needs to be permanently abolished. It shouldn't even be an option.

  • Upvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Here you can see the efficiency of guns in an enviroment much unlike ours in the game, namely on USN warships, diagnosing the efficiency of their guns vs. the Japanese:

1.png

RBP = "rounds per bird"

 

It is apparent how efficient radio controlled heavy guns are that also feature proximity fuzes. This statistics mainly reflects the easiest of all shots, namely directly toward you and away from you.

 

5'000 rounds of 20 mm would take eight and a half minutes of hosing down ONE plane for the easiest of all shots assuming a 5'000 round clip etc.. 40 mm Bofors take 15 minutes of hosing at the target (constant fire, assuming the barrel would not overheat and you has a 2'000 round clip) to take down that bird.

 

fact is you need a lot of guns and you need a good setting to take down aircraft. What we have in game is not only too precise for most cases, it follows wrong mechanics. I just though that for a combat sim named after a ground attacker, AAA behavior would attract some interest.

 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
13 minutes ago, ZachariasX said:

fact is you need a lot of guns and you need a good setting to take down aircraft.

 

I would prefer my FPS to stay high and have a more difficult AAA system in game. You are not wrong in saying what we have isn't accurate but its more of a compromise than a inherent flaw that should be fixed.

 

With the lower difficulty levels of AAA gunners they seem much more realistic. I rarely get hit by them and if i do its because i made it easy for them to hit me.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
48 minutes ago, Yogiflight said:

AAA is one of the reasons, I prefer flying in PWCG, as the AAA there is set to 'survivable'😉

 

 

True that. Those little pixel soldiers of AAA and the tailgunner are really aimbotting the heck out of this game.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I look forward to the promised 'player controlled' AA units arrival. I wonder if we can be as good as the AI gunners? :coffee:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On ‎6‎/‎21‎/‎2019 at 8:37 PM, Thad said:

I look forward to the promised 'player controlled' AA units arrival. I wonder if we can be as good as the AI gunners? :coffee:

In War Thunder I loved playing AAA, tho did nsot play for over a year now, but I remember it being fun to predict flightpath and shoot planes down. Gonna pick up the ground vehicle AAA when it releases and gonna play the heck out of them in MP 😄 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Isn't there a way to increase the rate of fire of AA and AAA? This way you could lower the accuracy but still have a large volume of fire representing a large flak/AAA presence.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The issue with AAA I find is that they can track you through clouds.

  • Upvote 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

×
×
  • Create New...