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14 hours ago, stupor-mundi said:

It would have been nice if a less strictly historical approach were taken, where red gets let's say T-34-85, so that mission designers, if they so choose, can put together an "ahistorical", but more balanced, mission, where red don't have to rely on either larger numbers, or aircraft.

 

T-34-85s didn't show up until 1944, so they are entirely out of the timeframe of Kursk.

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The best you could get for Kursk is the Churchill with the 6-pdr gun I suppose. There were some Valentines as well, but I don't know if they were the variant which used that gun.

 

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Honestly, with the guns the Tigers and Panthers are sporting, the only real option to keep things sort of balanced in a historical way for a summer '43 scenario, is to keep the numbers of Tigers and Panthers at the historical ratio. The German panzerwaffe at Kursk consisted mainly of Panzer IIIs (the most common) Panzer IVs and StuGs with a few heavy battalions sprinkled in between. 

 

A ratio of 1 Tiger and 2 Panthers for every 10 German players and 15 Soviet players for every 10 Germans, and you're looking at something that's work able. 

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It would have been better, when the devs would have released the PzKpfw IV before the PzKpfw III, then players would have had a real alternative to the Tiger in online play.

I really do understand that players prefer playing on russian side, when there is no Tiger available, as the PzKpfw III is an easy pray without fighting in a group, where you have the possibility to fight tactically, which is a little difficult, when you are alone.

 

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2 hours ago, Finkeren said:

Honestly, with the guns the Tigers and Panthers are sporting, the only real option to keep things sort of balanced in a historical way for a summer '43 scenario, is to keep the numbers of Tigers and Panthers at the historical ratio. The German panzerwaffe at Kursk consisted mainly of Panzer IIIs (the most common) Panzer IVs and StuGs with a few heavy battalions sprinkled in between. 

 

A ratio of 1 Tiger and 2 Panthers for every 10 German players and 15 Soviet players for every 10 Germans, and you're looking at something that's work able. 

The only problem is that if you would encouter 1 Tiger,  then chances are high you will encounter more than one. Up to 15 at the same time is possible.

Therfore Ratios are bad. Better make different missions with one or the other side having the advantage.

 

 

 

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Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, Finkeren said:

Honestly, with the guns the Tigers and Panthers are sporting, the only real option to keep things sort of balanced in a historical way for a summer '43 scenario, is to keep the numbers of Tigers and Panthers at the historical ratio. The German panzerwaffe at Kursk consisted mainly of Panzer IIIs (the most common) Panzer IVs and StuGs with a few heavy battalions sprinkled in between. 

 

A ratio of 1 Tiger and 2 Panthers for every 10 German players and 15 Soviet players for every 10 Germans, and you're looking at something that's work able. 

Our group of 10 or so Tigers has been thinking this over and we promise not to shoot our guns that often.  😀

 

"At the end of the bloody fighting, the Soviet Army won a resounding victory, they seized the initiative from the German Army in the East, one they would never relinquish. The Germans never would be on the offensive again on the Eastern Front. Despite horrendous casualties, rumored to be in excess of 700,000, the Soviets could easily replace those men.

In contrast, the Germans loss of 200,000 casualties were men that they could not spare as they were forced to move men and material to Italy. Despite knocking out Soviet tanks at a rate of nearly 5:1, the Panzers were irreplaceable. Soviet tank losses were difficult to ascertain, (as with both sides), but it is thought their losses were nearly 6000, however many knocked out tanks were repaired and lived to fight again. They lost nearly 50 percent of their tank forces on the Eastern Front."

 

I understand your logic but the Tiger did play a crucial role in the battle and there were about 210 or so of them.  But allocation on serious servers should be a consideration...and the Panther...that thing could barely drive across the street in July of 43 without a mechanical failure.  But all in all, you will never be able to replicate the quality of training which offset the lack of anything...at this point in the war.  Stuper_Mundi's were few and far between...And that Tiger gun....in those vast expanses, was devastating.     

Edited by SCG_Neun

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14 minutes ago, SCG_Neun said:

Our group of 10 or so Tigers has been thinking this over and we promise not to shoot our guns that often.  😀

 

"At the end of the bloody fighting, the Soviet Army won a resounding victory, they seized the initiative from the German Army in the East, one they would never relinquish. The Germans never would be on the offensive again on the Eastern Front. Despite horrendous casualties, rumored to be in excess of 700,000, the Soviets could easily replace those men.

In contrast, the Germans loss of 200,000 casualties were men that they could not spare as they were forced to move men and material to Italy. Despite knocking out Soviet tanks at a rate of nearly 5:1, the Panzers were irreplaceable. Soviet tank losses were difficult to ascertain, (as with both sides), but it is thought their losses were nearly 6000, however many knocked out tanks were repaired and lived to fight again. They lost nearly 50 percent of their tank forces on the Eastern Front."

 

I understand your logic but the Tiger did play a crucial role in the battle and there were about 210 or so of them.  But allocation on serious servers should be a consideration...and the Panther...that thing could barely drive across the street in July of 43 without a mechanical failure.  But all in all, you will never be able to replicate the quality of training which offset the lack of anything...at this point in the war.  Stuper_Mundi's were few and far between...And that Tiger gun....in those vast expanses, was devastating.     

 

Yeah but proportionally speaking, the Tiger was not the main tank inbthe battle so limiting its availability is a must in order to avoid the hilarious scenario we have now where every single German tanker is in a tiger. Hopefully with the Pziv coming along, servers will redesign their missions to accomodate a lot of PzIVs and PzIIIs to the players and limit the Tiger. The problem will always be the War Thunder players who use the Tiger as a shield instead of a sniper rifle ... They drive through and straight to the enemy without any concerns for tactics and marksmanship and lose the tank like money of a drunk in a bar. The tiger is the best tank in the game and you can easily get 10-15 tanks before you get destroyed by a plane so there needs to be some more historical approach to balance the servers ...

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Posted (edited)
41 minutes ago, SCG_Riksen said:

The problem will always be the War Thunder players who use the Tiger as a shield instead of a sniper rifle ... They drive through and straight to the enemy without any concerns for tactics and marksmanship and lose the tank like money of a drunk in a bar. The tiger is the best tank in the game and you can easily get 10-15 tanks before you get destroyed by a plane so there needs to be some more historical approach to balance the servers ...

 

I actually think the Tiger's combat capabilities are very nicely modeled right now. You are exactly right, those who try to break through in a Tiger with fire coming from 3 sides will get taken out quickly. 

 

I had my first real multi-hour session online with tanks two nights ago and had a blast. I drove the new T-34 exclusively and faced almost solely with Tigers did obviously die a lot, but for my first venture online it wasn't bad. On the second map I died 5 times, but managed to get the first shot in on the tigers most of the time (they were mostly overwhelmed by multiple Soviet tanks at once) and I managed to immoblize two Tigers and destroy one with a single flank shot at 500m, not really a horrible ratio. I did have one rather embarrassing head-to-head encounter at point blank with a PzIII after I managed to penetrate their lines. I Missed his vitals twice at 20m and was left a burning wreck. 

 

As far as undividual tank capabilities go, I think the devs pretty much nailed it. 

Edited by Finkeren
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50 minutes ago, Finkeren said:

 

I actually think the Tiger's combat capabilities are very nicely modeled right now. You are exactly right, those who try to break through in a Tiger with fire coming from 3 sides will get taken out quickly. 

 

I had my first real multi-hour session online with tanks two nights ago and had a blast. I drove the new T-34 exclusively and faced almost solely with Tigers did obviously die a lot, but for my first venture online it wasn't bad. On the second map I died 5 times, but managed to get the first shot in on the tigers most of the time (they were mostly overwhelmed by multiple Soviet tanks at once) and I managed to immoblize two Tigers and destroy one with a single flank shot at 500m, not really a horrible ratio. I did have one rather embarrassing head-to-head encounter at point blank with a PzIII after I managed to penetrate their lines. I Missed his vitals twice at 20m and was left a burning wreck. 

 

As far as undividual tank capabilities go, I think the devs pretty much nailed it. 

 

I agree. The tanks feel very well modelled right right now and the devs have indeed done a good job ... I'm hoping the Pziv will make servers more balanced and force a greater degree of tactics from the Blue tankers who mostly defeat the T34 with brute force instead of skill.

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Posted (edited)

I did a quick mission in my Tiger, something like 25 minutes ago I was attacked by a group T34. I shot a few and then I was not able to load amo anymore, no clue why, and I got tracked so I could not drive away. They are still shooting on me every 10-15 sec from around 500m and I am still not killed....I let it like it is because I am curious if my track gets repaired. 

 

Edit, killed.

Edited by pa4tim

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Isn't the Tiger a bit too manouverable for the bad reputation it has. For me it seems the Tiger in game is more agile than the Sherman, which would be quite odd.

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When it comes to the proportions of Allied vs Axis tanks, etc, in part I think this will be up to the mission makers to include Soviet AI armor to round out the numbers advantage. They would act almost as rodeo clowns, and take some of the axis player's attention, giving the soviet players more potential to obfuscate their own location, or use the AI as bait to maneuver on a Tiger/Panther/Ferdinand as needed. 

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Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, SCG_Riksen said:

 

Yeah but proportionally speaking, the Tiger was not the main tank inbthe battle so limiting its availability is a must in order to avoid the hilarious scenario we have now where every single German tanker is in a tiger. Hopefully with the Pziv coming along, servers will redesign their missions to accomodate a lot of PzIVs and PzIIIs to the players and limit the Tiger. The problem will always be the War Thunder players who use the Tiger as a shield instead of a sniper rifle ... They drive through and straight to the enemy without any concerns for tactics and marksmanship and lose the tank like money of a drunk in a bar. The tiger is the best tank in the game and you can easily get 10-15 tanks before you get destroyed by a plane so there needs to be some more historical approach to balance the servers ...

Well you've been in our scenarios and we offset the odds against the Tiger with a large amount of Russian artillery and it's hardly a walk in the park.  Let's just say nobody drives straight through anywhere in our server.  But I'm in agreement with limiting the vehicle selections, but the main tank server is already doing this.....anyways to some extent.   Not sure this is anything unusual as we've been going through this with planesets for years now.  Only 12 slots for the G2....and 24 for the F4 stuff as long as I can remember.  We do need that Pz IV and the Stug....though.  This will especially be necessary when the numbers of tankers increase.  Right now, it's slim pickens....

 

Historically, in a closed server with a start time and finish, mission objectives, anything can be adjusted by using artillery and aircraft.  Just VVS aircraft can ruin the Tigers day in such a scenario, by forcing the group into cover and limiting the open space combat that the Tiger does so well in.  Take a Tiger into some hills...out of the way areas....and on a time limited mission, you more than likely will not win.  Mix in some artillery with some human Soviet armor and those Tigers will not have the advantage.  

 

😉Plus...I already agreed with you in principle....."But allocation on serious servers should be a consideration."

Edited by SCG_Neun
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53 minutes ago, Yogiflight said:

Isn't the Tiger a bit too manouverable for the bad reputation it has. For me it seems the Tiger in game is more agile than the Sherman, which would be quite odd.

 

Nah I think it feels about right. The Tiger's mobility wasn't terrible. In game I feel it is maneuverable enough and easy to steer and is a pleasant smooth ride (all as it should be) but struggles a bit on steep slopes and accellerates slowly due to the sheer weight of the vehicle (also correct)

 

I definitely wouldn't say, that it is anywhere near as agile as the Sherman or quick as a T-34 though. 

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Last weeks mission.....6 Tigers assaulting town...shot to hell, main gun out on Slaters tank...with 2 PzIII's coming up about a kilometer back....Other Tigers with dead crew, main gun out, and other repairs taking place.  Slater making a  run on the flag as he has just about a minute left before the mission is over.   This was after 2 hrs and 40 minutes of combat getting to this point.....

 

I apologize on my desktop coming through.....shadowplay is acting up right now....

 

 

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2 minutes ago, SCG_Neun said:

Last weeks mission.....6 Tigers assaulting town...shot to hell, main gun out on Slaters tank...with 2 PzIII's coming up about a kilometer back....Other Tigers with dead crew, main gun out, and other repairs taking place.  Slater making a  run on the flag as he has just about a minute left before the mission is over.   This was after 2 hrs and 40 minutes of combat getting to this point.....

 

I apologize on my desktop coming through.....shadowplay is acting up right now....

 

 

 

Our T34s gave them hell lol

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Posted (edited)

Yeah...I was in that point of woods in a T34 watching him run past me.....As a Russian....I felt overwhelmed by his sacrifice.  😀   If we had more tankers we could put more T34's out there, but since we have low numbers...we use what we can.  That and if you didn't have the Tiger...you'd have a lower player number base than you do now.  Tanks like the Tiger and the Panther bring with them a huge player base.  The problem is, for every German tank...there was a shit load more of Soviet...but having that play out in human players is not going to happen.  I just hope we get more and more guys into the game.  It's a lot of fun.

Edited by SCG_Neun

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22 hours ago, SCG_Neun said:

Last weeks mission.....6 Tigers assaulting town...shot to hell, main gun out on Slaters tank...with 2 PzIII's coming up about a kilometer back....Other Tigers with dead crew, main gun out, and other repairs taking place.  Slater making a  run on the flag as he has just about a minute left before the mission is over.   This was after 2 hrs and 40 minutes of combat getting to this point.....

 

I apologize on my desktop coming through.....shadowplay is acting up right now....

 

 

 

LOL yes that was a bit crazy, anyways here is a new clip from our last session and T34 vs Tiger battle.

 

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Must be great to play a 2h40m long battle. How does that work ?  Do you respawn more times ? 

I played a few WT sim battles but they do not last over 2 hours. ( I stopped and went to IL-2 because I hated the spawnkilling mentality. I tried to play as realistic as possible but most players just play to win no matter what (like using "unrealistic"graphic settings, spawn sniping etc"  ) 

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For our unit the best qualities for historical immersion need to be encapsulated within an objective based mission format within a closed server.  Communication and coordination between units with an official start and finish time frame to force  movement along the front even when a more timely and safe route could have possibly been used.  Respawn for our events is allowed, and we prefer to bail from a disabled tank rather than be killed.  Unfortunately in my little T34 I am usually killed before I can bail when that Tiger gets the range on me, and with my guys...that's usually the first shot.  

 

Russian artillery replicates the defensive prowess of the Soviets and having the Germans on the offensive allows me to focus strictly on russian lines.  The sides are offset in this way as the panzers are dealing constantly with artillery positions and some Soviet AI tanks...in addition we have one, or when we have enough players, 2 to 3 Russian player tanks making things difficult.  We usually have one group mission per week which lasts the entire 2hr45 minutes or so.  Now that tanks can repair, things even work out better and respawning from a distant base location is reduced somewhat.  

 

We suffer from the same thing a lot of the servers deal with and that's having enough players show up for a scheduled event to make things interesting.  We will play our more strict "Dead is Dead" rules when the game is refined a bit more.  You are always welcomed to join us...just PM me if you'd like information.  You don't have to belong to our unit and you can play as German or Russian.....The only thing we would require is that players use our comms and work with us to try and have an immersive and enjoyable event.  

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Outstanding.

 

I want to encourage you. Please be patient. Keep the server running and evolving. More players will come as time passes and Tank Crew expands and improves. :salute:

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Sounds interesting, but I live in the Netherlands and I think you all are in the USA. There is a bit of a time difference that could spoil things. I am ultra flexible when it comers to time during the day and evening,  but not in the middle of the night or 6:00AM. I am a bit German tank biased 😁  in WT my most played tank is the Pz IV (F2 and H) in TC I play 90% of the time the Tiger but I do not mind to occasional play a KV1S (if the Tiger was not in TC I would probably not have bought it, I am glad I did because to my surprise I really like the plane sim of IL-2 too)

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We currently have our missions scheduled for 3pm on sundays to allow our German member a time slot. 

1 hour ago, Thad said:

Outstanding.

 

I want to encourage you. Please be patient. Keep the server running and evolving. More players will come as time passes and Tank Crew expands and improves. :salute:

Thanks Thad....we will keep it going.  I have a lot of hope in the game and our guys have a blast every week with it.  

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On 6/30/2019 at 11:57 AM, SCG_Neun said:

  😀   If we had more tankers we could put more T34's out there, but since we have low numbers...we use what we can.  That and if you didn't have the Tiger...you'd have a lower player number base than you do now.  Tanks like the Tiger and the Panther bring with them a huge player base.  The problem is, for every German tank...there was a shit load more of Soviet...but having that play out in human players is not going to happen.  I just hope we get more and more guys into the game.  It's a lot of fun.

Salutations,

 

Perhaps the upcoming platoon commander option will permit a single player to actually command his platoon in battle. That will probably open up options and the size of battles. :coffee:

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Posted (edited)
On 6/30/2019 at 6:51 AM, LukeFF said:

T-34-85s didn't show up until 1944, so they are entirely out of the timeframe of Kursk

 

A pity. My hopes for a somewhat balanced situation online will have to rest on the Pz4 then.

 

On 6/30/2019 at 9:16 AM, Finkeren said:

A ratio of 1 Tiger and 2 Panthers for every 10 German players and 15 Soviet players for every 10 Germans, and you're looking at something that's work able. 

 

My own estimation is very close to that. But I very predominantly play red.

 

The problem I see currently on the tank server (s), I put down to, that with this kind of situation regarding the vehicles, and the expectation/necessity of solving it via the red/blue player numbers, just doesn't chime with the mindset of the players.

 

There are a number of asymetries which get in the way of people switching sides. I for instance, don't like taking a tiger, because I don't like the role of the uber tank that's hard to conceal. Of course you have many players who will just play one side, no matter what.

 

Now you have the situation that, depending on terrain and numbers, red can't hold their own without attack plane support. And getting bombed constantly hugely pisses off the tankers to the point where they quit.

 

With an unequal player number being a necessity for banlance, the two sides certainly won't agree what kind of ratio constitutes a fair fight. I've been in many maps where you had equal numbers of T34s and Tigers and the blue side clearly thought that was a fair fight.

 

What currently happens on most days is, a new map comes up, often a ratio skewed towards red is there, sometimes one I would consider fair, but as the mission goes on, blue players drop off and the ratio becomes more skewed. No doubt because the blues feel hard done by, fighting such large numbers. Once this mechanism has begun, you see blue players connecting to the server, and then exiting again. Certainly because it's very daunting to join at that point.

 

On the rarer occasions that blue manage to put up an equal number or more, it goes the other way, usually quicker. Nobody likes to join when the prospect is to get battered by numerically superior tigers.

 

The situation thus is highly undesirable. Either you become part of a superior force and it's a boring turkey shoot, or you're getting wiped out.

 

Another asymetry we get with the terrain. There's a prokhorovka map in rotation which the blues usually don't join, because they dislike exactly those features (deep ravines) which the reds (basically t34s) prefer. So you frequently get a situation where some blues hang out on one tank server which at that moment sports flat terrain with little cover, waiting for reds to show up, and they won't. At the same time the reds hang out on the other server, which has some more cover, and wait for blues to show up. Also an undesirable situation from my point of view.

 

And all this being the case where, after having familiarized themselves with the new t34, many red players have reverted to using the old (if now, somewhat crippled) t34, at least in hairy situations. I can only imagine the old t34 will eventually be taken away, or at least further crippled until it's entirely unattractive compared with the new one.

 

===

 

Somewhat off topic, but I'll drop it in anyway. When you're driving the more vulnerable tank which is faster, what's good tactics is often, taking the long way around, often through or along the forest. Along the forest edge is good because you can dive into the forest when under fire, and out of it, to see and to fire. However, that's exactly where the invisible trees are which will break your engine, at least, and sometimes worse. What's part of the attractivity of the T34, is doing this, at high speed, and then the invisible trees will fully wreck your tank.

 

Then you approach an area with enemy artillery, paks, and AI tanks, and they shoot you through the trees (through entire forests). This really should be fixed in order to make the job of the less armored tank a bit realistic and less bloody frustrating.

 

Edited by stupor-mundi
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9 hours ago, stupor-mundi said:

 

Then you approach an area with enemy artillery, paks, and AI tanks, and they shoot you through the trees (through entire forests). This really should be fixed in order to make the job of the less armored tank a bit realistic and less bloody frustrating.

 

This line of site should be fixed if at all possible and made a priority especially for a line of site AT weapon.  From a mission building standpoint...if you could lock in your direction of fire with a degree option...you could force AT/artillery to fire with a specific field of view and still place these positions in the woodline..for concealment.  This way you could direct fire...and avoid shooting through a forest.  I know there are some work arounds....but this would be an easy solution if it could be done.  

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On 6/30/2019 at 11:57 AM, SCG_Neun said:

 I just hope we get more and more guys into the game.  It's a lot of fun.

 

I think things will improve when we get some more functionality and the PzIV is available.

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21 hours ago, stupor-mundi said:

There are a number of asymetries which get in the way of people switching sides. I for instance, don't like taking a tiger, because I don't like the role of the uber tank that's hard to conceal. Of course you have many players who will just play one side, no matter what.

 

I play only on the blue team, and i must admit i like the Tiger, 101 the Tiger beats most tanks the Red team can muster, however it's slow, heavy, hard to hide, turret is slow so we normally lose in close combat due to these limitations. Now regarding airsupport, I lost count on how many times i got bombed from the sky, sometimes as the only tank on blue side it's a struggle to get away from the spawn point and do your ting. Yes it can be frustrating, but at the end I don't mind, it's a challenges, the problem is when you run out of Tiger because there is a cap on the server, then you just can't do a thing because you die before you even can spawn, that is annoying.

 

I like the combined arms aspect of airplanes and tanks, and when we get the AA it will be more balanced i think. 

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Maybe the server admin should place a good amount of AAA at the spawn point, to make sure you have the possibility to start playing. it does not make any sense, if you get killed as soon as you start the game, and has absolutely nothing to to with simulation, but is purely arcade.

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Posted (edited)

SU-152 with its ML-20 howitzer HE shell should be enough to knock out Tigers crew by effects of concussion and spalling. Or simply tear the turret off.

 Its also important that players will have possibility to call for artillery support. In Panzer Elite it was possible to do quite a damage to heavy tanks with well placed/coordinated artillery barrage.

 57mm anti tank gun ZiS-2 can also be a nasty surprise for unaware tiger crews. But I dont know if it will be included + its subcaliber ammo.

Edited by Brano
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3 hours ago, Brano said:

Its also important that players will have possibility to call for artillery support. 

Would be something for Marshal mode. Only a leader should have the possibility to call for artillery support. It would bring a lot of chaos, when every player calls for artillery, which was not IRL, either.

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4 hours ago, Brano said:

SU-152 with its ML-20 howitzer HE shell should be enough to knock out Tigers crew by effects of concussion and spalling. Or simply tore the turret off.

 Its also important that players will have possibility to call for artillery support. In Panzer Elite it was possible to do quite a damage to heavy tanks with well placed/coordinated artillery barrage.

 57mm anti tank gun ZiS-2 can also be a nasty surprise for unaware tiger crews. But I dont know if it will be included + its subcaliber ammo.

Yeah, that would be awesome, however only squad leaders should have this opportunity and only a few times to do so, like in Arma.

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Posted (edited)

In Panzer Elite, you could call for arty support only once,max two times. And not in every mission. And IIRC arty was also able to lay smoke screen...but not sure, it's been a long time I played PE.

Edited by Brano
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S!

 

 I have not played Tank Crew except a few sporadic tests offline. How does the Panzer III with the 50/L60 gun fare against T-34? In War Thunder (realistic battles/sim battles for me)it does penetrate T-34 pretty reliably anywhere except the sloped front. But that is when you aim for the flat turret ring, gun cheeks etc. From sides T-34 is penetrable anywhere, even the turret. But how in TC?

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The Kwk 39 on the PzIII is pretty deadly against anything but the KV-1S front and mantlet, but you have to be within 500m to get reliable pens. 

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From my experience the Panzer III AP rounds dont have any chance of penetrating the front of the hull nor the turret on the 41 T-34, and not always a secure kill either from the side.
Havent been able to face a T-34 42 model yet due to most russians sticks to the 41 model for some reason.

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S!

 

 The turret should be fully penetrable by the 50mm. Both sides of the gun(mantlet) and sides/rear. The later turret with the higher turret ring should make it easier to cripple traverse and crew as it is a flat surface. I would propably start with Pz.III in TC as when you learn to play and survive in a "paper tank", you can play any tank.

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