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Hey everyone, haven't had time to check out the update much. Just wondering how the AI are now, besides the tighter formation and following orders. Do they still turn and burn to the right every time?

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I have noticed novice gunners are much more accurate now when up close. Ace gunners are quite a bit less accurate at distance as well. 

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I tried yesterday attack on A20 mombers together with two Fw190d. There were four P47 as escort fighters.

 

Doras were absolutely desperate to keep altitude, all the time stalling, climbing. All P47 chased me even if I tried to lure them to Doras. They completely ignore each other. 🤔

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7 hours ago, II./JG77_HankDG said:

Hey everyone, haven't had time to check out the update much. Just wondering how the AI are now, besides the tighter formation and following orders. Do they still turn and burn to the right every time?

 

I tested it last night.  The AI still turn as before.

 

 

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I was with a Me262 in QMB fighting with an A20. After we passed each other it turned hard at me and started chasing me. Later I tried the same against a P47, I clearly have to say the A20 was much more aggressive, turned better and even seemed faster than the P47. To make this clear, the A20 was loaded with 100% fuel and 2000kg bombs🤨

It would be nice, if someday we would get bombers with believable FMs, DMs and AI, that behaves the way it should.

Otherwise we might someday see a B17 flying with 5800kg bombs as fighter interceptor😉

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1 hour ago, Yogiflight said:

I was with a Me262 in QMB fighting with an A20. After we passed each other it turned hard at me and started chasing me. Later I tried the same against a P47, I clearly have to say the A20 was much more aggressive, turned better and even seemed faster than the P47. To make this clear, the A20 was loaded with 100% fuel and 2000kg bombs🤨

It would be nice, if someday we would get bombers with believable FMs, DMs and AI, that behaves the way it should.

Otherwise we might someday see a B17 flying with 5800kg bombs as fighter interceptor😉

The A20 in particular was noted by its pilots as being light at the controls and having a 'fighter' feel. So not a great example really. If you have sources as to how to make the bomber FMs behave like they should, please share them. Subjective feelings don't get things changed.

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1 hour ago, RedKestrel said:

The A20 in particular was noted by its pilots as being light at the controls and having a 'fighter' feel. So not a great example really. If you have sources as to how to make the bomber FMs behave like they should, please share them. Subjective feelings don't get things changed.

This might be, but I would believe with full fuel and 2000kg bombload there won't be too much of a fighter feeling.

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2 hours ago, Yogiflight said:

This might be, but I would believe with full fuel and 2000kg bombload there won't be too much of a fighter feeling.

A track or tacview would be helpful to see what its actually doing. Once again, subjective feelings can't produce results. No one can tell what feels aggressive or fast from one person to another. Did the A20 exceed its top speed as indicated in the specs? Did it exceed its maximum performance turn? Did it exceed its max G? (I've damaged the plane trying high-G maneuvers before). If you are able to substantiate things with evidence, numbers, and sources backing them up, things can change. If you can't, the devs got nothing to go on, other than the sources they already used to model the craft. If you provide numbers and evidence of something being wrong, then perhaps something can be done.

My impression of flying the A20 at full bombload is that its pretty agile for a bomber, but you can definitely 'feel' the weight. The agility and speed increase after dropping a full bombload is very noticeable. The flight model doesn't feel off to me compared to the numbers I've seen and the pilot's accounts I've read so I'm fairly happy with it. The same can be said of the way the Pe-2 feels. The A-20 is significantly faster and more nimble than the Pe-2, for instance, but that makes sense, as it has lower wing loading and much more powerful engines - it was historically considered 'over-powered'. 

A20B, fully loaded with 24000 lbs gross weight, has a wing loading of about 52.8 lbs/square foot, with engines supplying roughly 3200 HP. After dropping its 4400 lbs or so of bombs, the A20 weighs 19600 lbs, for a wing loading of 42.2 lbs/square foot. P-47D fully loaded at 17500 lbs (max takeoff) has a wing loading of 58.33 lbs/square foot. A normal load at 12700 lbs puts it at about 42.4 lbs/square foot. So we can see that a full-fuel A20 without bombs has the same wing loading as the P-47 at normal load, and at max loadout the A20 actually has a lower wing loading. Its not unreasonable to suggest that it have a pretty decent turn performance with that wing loading and that engine power. The P-47 is not an aircraft for a turning fight. 

The main deficiency in ANY sim is that you cannot adequately translate stick forces, and the physiological impact of flight maneuvers to a 1G Comfy Chair Pilot. This is why people in-game can sustain insane rolling maneuvers, negative G forces, and other things that would make a normal person disoriented at best or throwing up all over the inside of their flight helmet. no pilot in their right mind is going to try and dogfight in the A20 in real life because he has a crew of half a dozen people getting smacked around the fuselage in the back. But that doesnt mean you can't physically DO those maneuvers with the aircraft. So sim-pilots can do things that would be mostly impossible or too insane to try in real life. Same with the 'stick jerking' evasion you see in multiplayer - no real life pilot would be able to sustain those kinds of repetitive violent maneuvers and remain combat capable, but that doesn't mean the aircraft wouldn't. Its the meat-portions of the airplane that's the weak link. This, too, applies to the AI, which has even less meaty concerns than us.

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36 minutes ago, RedKestrel said:

The main deficiency in ANY sim is that you cannot adequately translate stick forces, and the physiological impact of flight maneuvers to a 1G Comfy Chair Pilot. This is why people in-game can sustain insane rolling maneuvers, negative G forces, and other things that would make a normal person disoriented at best or throwing up all over the inside of their flight helmet. no pilot in their right mind is going to try and dogfight in the A20 in real life because he has a crew of half a dozen people getting smacked around the fuselage in the back. But that doesnt mean you can't physically DO those maneuvers with the aircraft. So sim-pilots can do things that would be mostly impossible or too insane to try in real life. Same with the 'stick jerking' evasion you see in multiplayer - no real life pilot would be able to sustain those kinds of repetitive violent maneuvers and remain combat capable, but that doesn't mean the aircraft wouldn't. Its the meat-portions of the airplane that's the weak link. This, too, applies to the AI, which has even less meaty concerns than us.

 

Ah, but Petrovich has mentioned on the Russian forums that a pilot fatigue model will be coming, so there is hope. :) 

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3 minutes ago, LukeFF said:

 

Ah, but Petrovich has mentioned on the Russian forums that a pilot fatigue model will be coming, so there is hope. :) 

Ima be real with u chief, I'm already pretty fatigued these days.

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On 6/14/2019 at 8:25 PM, LukeFF said:

 

Ah, but Petrovich has mentioned on the Russian forums that a pilot fatigue model will be coming, so there is hope. :) 

Is that true? That would be really nice...

 

(if true, could you post a link? thank you)

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On 6/14/2019 at 6:48 PM, RedKestrel said:

The main deficiency in ANY sim is that you cannot adequately translate stick forces, and the physiological impact of flight maneuvers to a 1G Comfy Chair Pilot. This is why people in-game can sustain insane rolling maneuvers, negative G forces, and other things that would make a normal person disoriented at best or throwing up all over the inside of their flight helmet. no pilot in their right mind is going to try and dogfight in the A20 in real life because he has a crew of half a dozen people getting smacked around the fuselage in the back. But that doesnt mean you can't physically DO those maneuvers with the aircraft. So sim-pilots can do things that would be mostly impossible or too insane to try in real life. Same with the 'stick jerking' evasion you see in multiplayer - no real life pilot would be able to sustain those kinds of repetitive violent maneuvers and remain combat capable, but that doesn't mean the aircraft wouldn't. Its the meat-portions of the airplane that's the weak link. This, too, applies to the AI, which has even less meaty concerns than us.

 

Perhaps this is why so many real life gun cam films show the enemy just flying along in a gentle curve without trying to avoid the bullets?   They have tried violent maneuvers and now are left dazed and unable to defend themselves.   OTOH, surely there should exist some footage of victims trying violent maneuvers before they got tired/disoriented but I have never seen one.  I can only assume that those ones were not kept as they only wanted footage of actual kills or maybe any footage of lucky hits during violent maneuvering is too shaky to be useful.

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Posted (edited)

Hello all,

 

Just bought BoK following the news of the improved AI. Been checking the forums every few months to see if it was finally worth taking the dip as a SP-only player. While there are still many things that need to be ironed out, it definitely shows that what was promised by Jason and the team is getting closer and closer with each update. Thank you for your work, looking forward to buy more of your products!

 

Now, a few observations after playing for a couple of days with the QMB. I tried a few combinations, mostly 1 V 1, even trying "Red V Red" or "Blue V Blue":

- Against German planes (Regular to Ace), it usually devolves in them going for the deck right away and engaging in the infamous steady-turn thing. This happens independent of terrain type and of starting altitude.

- Going against a Yak-7, I can say that it is definitely more aggressive and does not stop engaging, does not waste altitude, trying to regain some whenever it tries diving. It is also hard to shake off when it gets on your six.

- While listening to the enemy radio frequency, I noticed that the "Mission Accomplished, RTB" message gets spammed quite a lot, often right after reaching the meeting waypoint. I am suspecting that this is what leads the enemy to just go for the deck and keep turning. I tried disengaging and the enemy usually does not try to follow. When I heard the message while fighting a Yak-7, it immediately started going for the deck and started turning as well; this happened as I was flying a Yak-7 as well and could disengage a lot more easily, allowing less opportunities for the AI and making the fight last longer.

 

I just tried a Historical Mission and I crashed on take-off. This stopped the rest of the flight from taking off and the planes that were already in the air just kept circling, waiting for the others to join them. I was flight lead but as soon as I crashed the lead role was correctly passed down within my flight. I remember a similar issue being present even in Il-2: 1946, before TD patched it out. Not game breaking but worth having a look I think.

 

I am particularly interested in testing the QMB RTB issue. I did a quick search on the forums for anything related but could not really find anything. Did I miss any existing thread about this? Could you point it to me if so? If not, am I seeing things or could this really be happening? I will be learning how to use the sim in the next days so I might be able to provide track files or to design simple missions myself, but for the moment I can only report in writing.

Edited by BAWZ
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Double posting just not to mix information up:

 

Played some more, I think I was just seeing stuff before. I'm not yet sure how radio frequencies are managed, and if they are used at all by the AI in the QMB. Initially I thought I was hearing messages directed to the enemy planes, especially as I was hearing flight leads replying to tower (without any sort of input from me). In the last few tests no radio communication was ever done by anyone and I still noticed planes disengaging and going for the deck. Similar QMB configurations give similar results, albeit with a minimal range of variation (engagement length etc).

 

Still, the AI definitely is not a "one-trick pony" all the time, and this is good. Sometimes it manages to be quite challenging as well. Change in skill seems to have an effect (better aim / awareness / coordination with teammates). I will keep playing and report again if I am sure I am seeing something. I'm interested in feedback to my observations nonetheless, so thank you if you give any.

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On 6/16/2019 at 6:37 AM, 56RAF_Roblex said:

 

Perhaps this is why so many real life gun cam films show the enemy just flying along in a gentle curve without trying to avoid the bullets?   They have tried violent maneuvers and now are left dazed and unable to defend themselves.   OTOH, surely there should exist some footage of victims trying violent maneuvers before they got tired/disoriented but I have never seen one.  I can only assume that those ones were not kept as they only wanted footage of actual kills or maybe any footage of lucky hits during violent maneuvering is too shaky to be useful.

I think there's several reasons gun-cam footage rarely looks like a dog-fight:

1.Viewing gun-camera footage it often seems like it is very slowed down, either by how they've chosen to show it or from how it is captured. So while it seems that the engagement goes on for a long time with no evasive maneuvers by the target craft, often the time taken by the entire film is much shorter than we would think. The pilots in the footage therefore have less time to react than it seems. And on top of that we must remember that unless they see tracers flashing by their cockpit they may be unaware they were under attack until their plane started getting hit - at which point its possible they panicked or froze or, knowing they were badly hit already, began preparing to bail out. 

2. I think a lot of the time pilots engaging in sharp evasive maneuvers would have either evaded the gunshot entirely OR even if they did not, their plane would have been outside the camera FOV when hits took place as they would have forced a high-deflection shot. I've never personally seen gun cam footage that took place during a rolling scissors, for example, and I imagine said footage would be tricky to interpret and perhaps not as showy as the public might want. Gun cam footage showing a miss or not showing the enemy aircraft at all isn't going to be saved for very long or released to the public so we probably have the mother of all confirmation biases here.

 

3. Making violent maneuvers at all in these aircraft took a lot more strength than most people appreciate, and often control movements would have to be made with very little leverage (such as trying to move the stick sideways while it is nearly in your lap, or extended far in front of you). So Johan McVirtualpilot can thrash his desktop stick around effortlessly and the game will dutifully translate those stick movements into control movements in game. But in real life Johan might quickly exhaust himself whipping his arms back and forth as it would require actual exertion to do so - at the least making these maneuvers would take more time.

4. Statistically the most dangerous combat by a pilot was their first engagement. Ergo, most of the poor guys we see getting shot down would have been rookie pilots who may not have been confident enough to push their aircraft to the limits, or may not even have known how. This reason, among others, is why I'm actually a little uncomfortable watching gun camera footage.

 

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The AI is actually really good now if you play against High or Ace level.

No more infinite turns, and no more binging the fight down to 500m regardless of the altitude you start at.

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That's good to hear. Progress and improvements. The future looks promising. 😃

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I just gave it another try.  Choosing a Yak 1b vs F4 at 2000m over water on the Kuban map.  1vs1 "Duel"  in QMB at 70% fuel each and ace AI.

 

I avoided the initial head-on merge by skidding right slightly out of the line of fire, then breaking back left, changing my mind and breaking right to turn 180 degrees.  The 109 Ace AI was extending down at a very shallow angle and turning a wide righthand circle.

 

I followed and cut inside the wide circle to take up position behind.  The 109 Ace AI passed me and spiral climbed up to 2000m again, with me slightly below and at full throttle to stay on his tail.

 

For the next twenty minutes the 109 Ace AI continued to turn right at 2200m as I closed the gap and stayed on his tail.

 

From what I can tell the infinity turns still appear to be there.

 

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56 minutes ago, Feathered_IV said:

From what I can tell the infinity turns still appear to be there.

 

1 vs 1 duels in QMB are not really the best way to judge how the AI has improved. Career mode is a much better judge of that.

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Thanks for the suggestion.  I have been experiencing the AI infinity turns since the career came out, but I gave it a try again today just to be sure.  This is the Stalingrad career, La-5 vs 109 something.  The mission was to protect a river crossing.  Difficulty was set to Hard, so I assume this was Veteran or Ace AI.

 

The 109 attacked me from a high quarter rear, so I broke into the attack then reversed the turn as he went past me.  The AI was making an easy climbing left hand turn as I moved to follow him and cut inside, pulling a couple of plane-lengths of lead.  The AI then turned away in the opposite direction to begin the familiar right hand turn.  He stayed that way for about a quarter of an hour and was still going strong before I hit alt-F4 and quit the game.

 

It's a pity the screenshots don't show the radio chatter that was going on in the background.  One of the friendly AI was called Arsen Volk.  :happy:

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I think the new AI are an improvement but I think the head-on accuracy has been improved a bit too much: Now it’s absolute suicide to go against the AI from head on. Seems you have to start some way out though since at shorter ranges they may just weave by at the merge. I usually set up a QM from max range 10 Km @ 1000 m alt and even if I start firing from >1Km the AI will bore right in and start firing at ca 0.7 Km and score decisive hits at ca 0.5 Km. At best it’s a draw with both going down but more often than not the AI comes out as the winner.

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Posted (edited)

Personnally speaking I think that's a bit uncalled for John,Feathered has at least tested and shown "proof" I can't believe he'd waste his time flying and testing if he didn't like the Box series.

 

Updates to a game 5 years old.? .Their still developing the Box series of which BOS is part of. How many would be here if no updates had come in the last 5 years? ROF no longer gets supported and if in the future the BOX series gets a new graphic engine upgrade then this series will no longer be supported,that's just how it is. Devs arnt paid for updates but without updates..No one would continue to support would they? 

Fwiw ..I've flown bout 20 odd hrs in the last few days and I've found the A.I to be better than previous updates but..low down they still have a tendency to turn right it doesn't "seem" to happen has regular has previously but it does happen. I have other issues with the series (Clouds,Comms etc ) but that's a different matter. I've been enjoying this latest update more than previous ones and I want to thank the Devs for their continued work especially regarding the A.I.

1 hour ago, BraveSirRobin said:

 

His fight is at low altitude.  The AI becomes more cautious at low altitude to avoid crashing into the ground.  There is probably not much that can be done about that.

 

I have to agree with BSR,hopefully the team can find a "solution" ..fingers crossed.

 

Id Personnally like a few testers to maybe comment on their findings regarding the subject matter? Only because they probably have hundreds if not thousands of hrs sim time. Is it me or does it seem a bit of a "touchy" subject to the test team? I dunno..

 

Anyway I am enjoying the series atm,I'm a couple of collectors planes short in the 3 theatres I own..the U2 looks nice il have a nosy at that I reckon.

Edited by Adger

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The AI is doing a hell of a lot more than Feather's screenshots are showing. Do they still go in circles? Yes, from time to time, especially at low altitudes. But, that's not the point - the variety of maneuvers the AI performs at altitudes higher than weed-top level is significantly greater than it was in the past.

 

Enemy fighter AI is Normal at Easy and Moderate difficulty levels, Veteran at the Hard difficulty level in career mode.

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1 minute ago, LukeFF said:

The AI is doing a hell of a lot more than Feather's screenshots are showing. Do they still go in circles? Yes, from time to time, especially at low altitudes. But, that's not the point - the variety of maneuvers the AI performs at altitudes higher than weed-top level is significantly greater than it was in the past.

 

Enemy fighter AI is Normal at Easy and Moderate difficulty levels, Veteran at the Hard difficulty level in career mode.

 

Thank you Luke for your insight it's appreciated :drinks:.

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7 minutes ago, LukeFF said:

The AI is doing a hell of a lot more than Feather's screenshots are showing. Do they still go in circles? Yes, from time to time, especially at low altitudes. But, that's not the point - the variety of maneuvers the AI performs at altitudes higher than weed-top level is significantly greater than it was in the past.

 

Enemy fighter AI is Normal at Easy and Moderate difficulty levels, Veteran at the Hard difficulty level in career mode.

Good to know, the new moves are appreciated.

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I agree with BraveSirRobin that the AI would seem to have a built in caution at lower altitudes to avoid ground collision.  I think I recall the minimum safe altitude was raised too when the Kuban map got released to prevent aircraft lawn darting too much. 

 

I also wholeheartedly agree with LukeFF that the AI do a hell of a lot more than what I show in the above screenshots.  However in this particular instance, what I am referring to is the very specific behaviour that occurs when the player gets on the AI's six.  

 

I don't normally record tracks or upload things to YouTube, however after Jonredcorn's spirited response I've attached a link to a track made this evening.  Ace AI, over water, Kuban map, 1vs1 etc.

 

http://www.mediafire.com/file/a6h13kcxekl0hsm/Track.rar/file 

 

I find that the turning behaviour seems to kick in when the player occupies a space within a certain cone to the enemy's rear.  About halfway through the track you can see where I skid out of that cone and the AI starts to maneuver again, doing a diving turn and a bit of a zoom.  As soon as I reoccupy the rearward area again it goes back into the same turn to the right. 

 

In the future it would be good if the turning was timed or randomised with other maneuvers.  So that the AI tried to break out of the turn.  Either spiralling upwards or breaking away for speed and doing an Immelmann etc.  Contrary to jon's assertions, the ideal solution for me is if I could pay extra for these AI improvements as Premium content.  Not have them developed and provided for free.  I neither demand nor expect any feature for free and would willingly pay individually for every new gameplay feature that I use. 

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I wonder if breaking up the circle with a simple 4 turn flat scissor, at a random interval would already add enough to make things feel more emersive. It's not about being more efficient dogfight wise, but to improve the experience. I don't know how the AI works internally but maybe switching between the turning behaviour and a simple scissor based on a little random timer shouldn't be too hard to implement.

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On 6/29/2019 at 2:32 PM, Feathered_IV said:

I agree with BraveSirRobin that the AI would seem to have a built in caution at lower altitudes to avoid ground collision.  I think I recall the minimum safe altitude was raised too when the Kuban map got released to prevent aircraft lawn darting too much. 

 

I also wholeheartedly agree with LukeFF that the AI do a hell of a lot more than what I show in the above screenshots.  However in this particular instance, what I am referring to is the very specific behaviour that occurs when the player gets on the AI's six.  

 

I don't normally record tracks or upload things to YouTube, however after Jonredcorn's spirited response I've attached a link to a track made this evening.  Ace AI, over water, Kuban map, 1vs1 etc.

 

http://www.mediafire.com/file/a6h13kcxekl0hsm/Track.rar/file 

 

I find that the turning behaviour seems to kick in when the player occupies a space within a certain cone to the enemy's rear.  About halfway through the track you can see where I skid out of that cone and the AI starts to maneuver again, doing a diving turn and a bit of a zoom.  As soon as I reoccupy the rearward area again it goes back into the same turn to the right. 

 

In the future it would be good if the turning was timed or randomised with other maneuvers.  So that the AI tried to break out of the turn.  Either spiralling upwards or breaking away for speed and doing an Immelmann etc.  Contrary to jon's assertions, the ideal solution for me is if I could pay extra for these AI improvements as Premium content.  Not have them developed and provided for free.  I neither demand nor expect any feature for free and would willingly pay individually for every new gameplay feature that I use. 

Thank you for the track and your observations.

 

Is it possible that the AI is programmed to drag you for some other AI in the sector and that as long as you're not in a firing position he will let you follow him to so that you can get bagged by wingmen? How does AI react in multiple ac environment (with wingmen)?

 

Could it be that we do not have an Ai able recognize and focus on tactics  required for a 1 vs 1 situation, instead it is  focusing in team tactics and working to prolong the fight to eventually lose (well because it is alone: drag is good but there is no bag)?

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On 6/25/2019 at 8:15 AM, LukeFF said:

 

1 vs 1 duels in QMB are not really the best way to judge how the AI has improved. Career mode is a much better judge of that.

They are still there in PWCG, too. There are some things AI does in PWCG, that I can't remember having seen in the game's career mode, like flying 360s immediately after takeoff.

It seems to me that either the career mode missions are worked around the existing AI, or the AI was tweaked for fitting to the career mode missions.

48 minutes ago, Caudron431Rafale said:

Is it possible that the AI is programmed to drag you for some other AI in the sector and that as long as you're not in a firing position he will let you follow him to so that you can get bagged by wingmen? How does AI react in multiple ac environment (with wingmen)?

 

From my experience in PWCG, it seems that it is not that way. I was several times following AI in circles with enemy AI around, but they did not attack me as long as I was in the circle. Only after I had killed the fighter I chased, the other AIs did attack me. BTW from what I noticed AI leaves the circle often after it is damaged, to RTB.

What for me is more an issue, than the circling, is the gangbanging. 4 vs. 4 usually looks that way, the 4 enemies chase my leader, my other two squadmates, well... I don't really know what they do, press the pause button or so, and I try to help my leader. The four enemy fighters stay behind my leader, no matter what I do. I can even attack their first one, and am absolutely safe of the other three, as they simply don't take notice of me. This focusing on one target is something, that needs some work, too.

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2 hours ago, Caudron431Rafale said:

 

Is it possible that the AI is programmed to drag you for some other AI in the sector and that as long as you're not in a firing position he will let you follow him to so that you can get bagged by wingmen? How does AI react in multiple ac environment (with wingmen)?

 

No, the AI don’t coordinate.  The AI just gets very cautious below a certain altitude so that it doesn’t crash into the ground. 

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10 hours ago, Caudron431Rafale said:

Is it possible that the AI is programmed to drag you for some other AI in the sector

 

I wondered about that, but it doesn't seem to be a coordinated move between individual AI.  Sometimes I get attacked from another aircraft while in chasing an AI in a fixed turn. Sometimes not.  As far as I can tell it occurs only if my path takes me within their cone of awareness, or the pursuing aircraft had already selected me before I began turning with its fellow.  This happens at 200 metres as well as 2000.  

 

AI vs AI fights seem to play out better as they are shadow boxing to a degree and seem to telegraph their intentions to one another.  If an inscrutable human is involved, they seem to reach the end of their limited repertoire of movement very quickly.  

 

 

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