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Dutch2

Not perfect in VR; Albatros 3Dcockpit

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Posted (edited)

I just toke a VR ride in my fav. plane the Albatros and I think they did not do a proper job for VR jockeys. The 3D effects in the cockpits are flatten, the instrument bar at the front as a sample, seems now to be oval.

And why is the metal now been made green, if this was made from copper then I had to see copper oxide and not strange looking colored surface.   

 

Edited by Dutch2
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I've sat in one of TVAL's albs, and the metal was green in the cockpit. Granted, it's a replica, but I tend to trust TVAL's attention to detail ;) 

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Yea, I believe that copper oxide looking green was the primer or utility interior color used. 

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The instrument bar is also oval on all reproduction examples I can find (as well as being green), so I trust this is the case for the original real ones too.

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Posted (edited)

Sorry I do not think nonVR users can do any judgement on the quality in VR. You have to use VR to see the lesser quality. 

VR owners who have this FC game, try the Albatros and compare it with the other plane like the Dolphin or Fokker D7, let me know what you are thinking about the cockpit quality. I still think it is another lazy job from that Russian design buro. 

 

edit about the oval gunbar you were all right historically it was oval. 

 

Edited by Dutch2

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I just checked the Albatros D.Va cockpit in VR, comparing it to the Fokker D.VII cockpit and I honestly cannot say that I notice any difference in quality what so ever.  Are there any particular details that throw you off that I might be missing?

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Posted (edited)
On 6/12/2019 at 10:32 AM, Dutch2 said:

I still think it is another lazy job from that Russian design buro. 

 

 

 

🤣

Edited by RhumbaAzul

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And, what's with the Lewis Gun on the top wing? I've looked everywhere, and cannot find a single piece of evidence that the Germans ever fitted one, even as an individual field mod. Lessens the historical accuracy of the whole project in my opinion.

Albatros Cropped.png

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Posted (edited)
8 hours ago, clarkejw said:

And, what's with the Lewis Gun on the top wing? I've looked everywhere, and cannot find a single piece of evidence that the Germans ever fitted one, even as an individual field mod. Lessens the historical accuracy of the whole project in my opinion.

 

Someone might have found info that a pilot used one captured Lewis gun, or that it was used in some other front by a pilot or a squadron. But I agree, it is not representative of the plane. I think with all these modifications, they tried to give an arcade tone to lure the 'War Thunder' crowd, but I think these things are only negative.

Edited by SeaW0lf

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I think they added it originally to ROF couple years ago, after someone posted some kind of evidence proving that there was at least one Ablie with such gun fitted. Maybe you can find something on ROF forum.

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1 hour ago, SeaW0lf said:

 

Someone might have found info that a pilot used one captured Lewis gun, or that it was used in some other front by a pilot or a squadron. But I agree, it is not representative of the plane. I think with all these modifications, they tried to give an arcade tone to lure the 'War Thunder' crowd, but I think these things are only negative.

I think it adds quite nicely to the albie. Can't argue with the historical aspect, of course. But I fly it a lot and really like it.

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34 minutes ago, J2_Bidu said:

I think it adds quite nicely to the albie. Can't argue with the historical aspect, of course. But I fly it a lot and really like it.

 

The tilting thing is what adds a bad / unhistorical twist to it in multiplayer. But this is off-topic. I'm considering opening a thread about it, but we all know the hassles.

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, SeaW0lf said:

 

The tilting thing is what adds a bad / unhistorical twist to it in multiplayer. But this is off-topic. I'm considering opening a thread about it, but we all know the hassles.

Why? Ball did that all the time.

 

Concerning reuse of Lewis guns by the germans in aircrafts, and googling a bit, it seems to have been relatively common, not a one in a wartime occurrence.

 

But it would be nice to restrict the number of hands in active use. How could you tilt the Lewis gun, hold the hand gun, the stick and fiddle with throttle and mixture while shooting your Spandaus, all at once?

Edited by J2_Bidu

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, J2_Bidu said:

Why? Ball did that all the time.

 

None of them did in turnfights, just in a sort of straight line and in zoom up manouvers. You can discuss it here if you want. I never found a quote of any of them saying they were firing across the circle in turnfights. Alex Revell (who wrote High in The Empty Blue) told me it would be impossible for several reasons, and he knew some of the pilots of the 56th Squadron. Then to use it to gain across the circle against better turning fighters is a hack in my opinion. Hence why I might open a thread here to discuss it in a civil manner with the community.

 

Like I said, we can discuss it at the thread I linked (ROF).

Edited by SeaW0lf
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Posted (edited)

If you want to discuss something in a civil manner how about not linking to a thread where you insult the developers.  Also if FC is a complete waste of resources its pretty dumb of you to be wasting your time here.

Edited by -332FG-Garven

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2 hours ago, -332FG-Garven said:

If you want to discuss something in a civil manner how about not linking to a thread where you insult the developers.  Also if FC is a complete waste of resources its pretty dumb of you to be wasting your time here.

 

Fair enough, I edited that. But yes, I'm flying once a week at best when I used to fly everyday.

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I can't figure you out re. FC Wolfy, one minute it's the bollocks, next it's rubbish ?

 

S!

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On 6/14/2019 at 10:21 AM, SeaW0lf said:

 

Someone might have found info that a pilot used one captured Lewis gun, or that it was used in some other front by a pilot or a squadron. But I agree, it is not representative of the plane. I think with all these modifications, they tried to give an arcade tone to lure the 'War Thunder' crowd, but I think these things are only negative.

 

Gerhard Fieseler, Jasta 38 IIRC. There were definetely photos of historicak Albies with overwing Lewis on RoF forum.

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On 6/14/2019 at 9:21 AM, SeaW0lf said:

 I think with all these modifications, they tried to give an arcade tone to lure the 'War Thunder' crowd, but I think these things are only negative.

 

I think you'll find RoF predates War Thunder by several years and I seem to recall the original idea behind weapon mods and scarves and pistols was to give the supporting community something to actually purchase apart from actual aircraft. 

At the time there were lots of calls to make donations or organise kickstarter campaigns for new features. The community recognised it was a relatively small one and this was a way to stimulate income for the team.  Jason has always resisted the idea of donations.

 

As to Lewis guns in German hands;  the simple truth is they literally fell from the skies into the laps of the Germans.  Why waste a valuable and free commodity?

 

I've seen pictures of Lewis guns mounted on ground attack 2 seaters as well as Albi btw.

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I totally agree that if it happened, then it's fine in this context. As I said, thus far I was unable to find evidence of it, but I obviously wasn't looking in the right places! As someone said, there would have been plenty of them.

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Posted (edited)

Lewis guns were used by the Germans on their machines... I have books showing Lewis guns mounted on two seaters.

The Albatros could be fitted with an over wing Becker cannon... if it could still fly with that on the top wing, then a Lewis would easily have been supported.

Many things would be captured and utilised, put onto aeroplanes by ground staff... using captured Aldis sights was a common occurrence for instance..

 

From the Windsock DataFile No.16 book ... ''The Lewis was the most used and favoured captured machine gun, and enough stocks were acquired to provide many for aircrews''.

How many found their way to German fighter staffels I could not say however...

Edited by Trooper117
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On 6/15/2019 at 7:02 PM, J2_Trupobaw said:

 

Gerhard Fieseler, Jasta 38 IIRC. There were definetely photos of historicak Albies with overwing Lewis on RoF forum.

 

https://www.britannica.com/biography/Gerhard-Fieseler

 

«He developed his own tactics for aerial combat, which included installing a captured Lewis gun in his Fokker DVII that fired upward at a 45° angle»

 

LOL so to keep things historical, the brits can have their guns aiming at 80 degrees, while we can run our D7's (not albies!) at 45...

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6 minutes ago, J2_Bidu said:

 

https://www.britannica.com/biography/Gerhard-Fieseler

 

«He developed his own tactics for aerial combat, which included installing a captured Lewis gun in his Fokker DVII that fired upward at a 45° angle»

 

LOL so to keep things historical, the brits can have their guns aiming at 80 degrees, while we can run our D7's (not albies!) at 45...

 

I researched this plane back in the day. It was fixed (not movable) at a 45 degrees angle just like Ball had his pointing downwards. Useless from all accounts, so much that the Squadron leader ordered Ball to correct that by replacing it for a Vickers.

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Posted (edited)

One one hand, I like the idea of unconventional weapon mountings, seeing as there was no end to individual pilot experimentation during the war. For example, I've heard a few of the American pilots liked to fit one 11mm balloon gun and one 7mm vickers in their SPAD 13s - something I wouldn't mind doing myself - and some SPAD 13s in USAS service had Marlin M.Gs fitted (although apparently Vickers were preferred). It would be cool to see a Camel 2F.1 configuration with an overwing Lewis (although I think this would be too much for poor Seawolf if the gun could be tilted!). 

 

On the other hand, I don't like the idea of 'unlikely' mods being universally available to every aircraft of that type as, well, the vast majority of the aircraft wouldn't have had those mods. 

 

EDIT: All that being said, I think what mods should / shouldn't be implemented, whether or not Lewis guns should be tilted, etc etc, is a problem for after FC is a 'finished product'. 

Edited by US103_Larner
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2 hours ago, US103_Larner said:

On the other hand, I don't like the idea of 'unlikely' mods being universally available to every aircraft of that type as, well, the vast majority of the aircraft wouldn't have had those mods.

 

I agree, but this is more of a mission building / server setting problem. That is to say: mission builders should be able to lock (or force) individual mods, on a plane by plane basis. I'm not sure if that's already possible in IL-2.

 

I fully expect that nothing of the sort will happen, but it would be great to have almost full customization of the plane — as long as it was historically ever an option. I'd love to see single Vickers Sopwith Camels, as flown by the Belgians.

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....umm, when did anyone see serious Albie pilots flying consistently with this mod to good effect?    I tried it once every few years in Rof just to remind myself how silly an idea it was....

 

....and I admit to thinking of trying it once in FC....make that twice....against AI....on the FC Fluugpark, when nobody was looking so I couldn't be embarrassed....snicker...look what B is flying....snicker....

 

...but I still haven't....figuring it could wait for the testing team ( many of whom are posting here) to give me their analysis...bit apparently it's such a silly idea to them that it's not even worth the time to try out....much less hypothocate about here...yet I take the time to make a post....thus consuming more time on the topic than it warrants.....since nobody ...well, you know what I mean....there's always somebody...but seriously, this is seen as undermining the entire project?   I doubt that too...

 

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Posted (edited)

Albatrosses with Lewis guns were only a minor annoyance in RoF and not much of a threat.  Individual field mods can be locked out in the IL-2 BoX series by mission makers.

Edited by -332FG-Garven
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5 hours ago, J5_Baeumer said:

....umm, when did anyone see serious Albie pilots flying consistently with this mod to good effect?    I tried it once every few years in Rof just to remind myself how silly an idea it was....

 

 

 

Define "serious Albie pilot"  😂. J2_Bidu likes to fly this contraption (along with historical white tail Baumer skin 😛) and definetely has good effects with it. Not as good as without it IMHO, but still good. 103_Larner can probably elaborate more, Bidu and Wulfe had shared some kind of Lewis understanding, but I don't remember the details.

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7 hours ago, J5_Baeumer said:

....umm, when did anyone see serious Albie pilots flying consistently with this mod to good effect?    I tried it once every few years in Rof just to remind myself how silly an idea it was....

 

....and I admit to thinking of trying it once in FC....make that twice....against AI....on the FC Fluugpark, when nobody was looking so I couldn't be embarrassed....snicker...look what B is flying....snicker....

 

XafQreg.jpg

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It's not that simple. I just tested the SE5a with the Lewis tilted (never used it before) and got immediate results on a turnfight against DVIIs, getting several hits on the first try with the first drum. It only requires a little practice, and this is very disruptive to the missions. Nowadays, ROF already has some players using this tactic regularly in the missions and with positive results.

 

As far as I know, to turnfight with the Lewis tilted at 45 degrees was not used in the war for several reasons, such as the impossibility of turnfighting and holding the gun at the same time (I think it was Bishop who trimmed his Nieuport to hold the Lewis with both hands whenever he fired with the Lewis upwards), dealing with the recoil, with the maneuvers and turbulence of the flight, altitude sickness, not to mention that from all accounts it was not easy to aim the gun that way, something that McCudden said as well. Alex Revell told me it would be impossible, and he befriended some pilots of the 56th Squadron because of his book High in The Empty Blue. I also wrote to a crew who flies a SE5a and the answer was the same. As far as I know, there are no testimonials about the Lewis being used in turnfights at the 45 degree angle. Even when flying straight, I still have not found terms like "oblique" or similar. I don’t contest that they could adjust the gun in the rail, especially those using the bungee cord, but the Lewis was usually shot at the same angle of 75-80 degrees, the same angle used to reload. However, in-game, the gun shots and reloads at the 45 degree angle, which for all intents and purposes was the least used angle, and never mentioned in turnfights.

 

In ROF this practice was becoming popular on the NFF server, already with a handful of players pulling the Lewis down in turnfights. Obviously you gain a huge advantage against the opponent, catching the adversary yards ahead in the turn, not to mention pulling the Lewis back and forth in the middle of rolls, turns, pulling Gs and whatnot.

 

Just as in 2015 there was the problem of piloting and gunning two-seaters at the same time (another feature that we should have the option to block). From what I remember, old veteran aces went crazy on the forum and servers because of this 'technique'. It was enough for a single Bristol or Halb to cross into no man's land and monopolize several players, shooting down most of them. Nowadays there are also a handful of players piloting and gunning at the same time and disrupting the missions in the NFF server. I joke that we have dogfighting Gothas and HPs.

 

I, as simmer, I consider these practices disruptive and not realistic (with emphasis on the latter). That is, it forces that all the players of the mission enter in arcade mode to adapt to one or two players that login to mess around. I reckon that people thought that the tilted Lewis could be used in turnfights for the lack of information, but just like Bender said, it is not just because of one photo, or forum lucubration, that these mods have to come to fruition the way they do. In ROF some of the mods were created as a source of income for the studio, but this is not necessary in Flying Circus.

 

At least I think that in Flying Circus we will have the option to block the mods (I'm not sure about flying and gunning), so if in the future we had an FC2, we will not see two-seaters with twin Lewises facing Nieuport 11s and DH2s.

 

That's my vision as simmer. I know that it upsets some people and it involves legendary planes, but certain things don’t seem to be right.

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Just reread a book which very much shows that 40 Squadron were using the Lewis tilted up as a means of engaging EA and getting results... both in Nieuports and S.E.5's...

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31 minutes ago, Trooper117 said:

Just reread a book which very much shows that 40 Squadron were using the Lewis tilted up as a means of engaging EA and getting results... both in Nieuports and S.E.5's...

 

High in The Empty Blue has several quotes of them using it as well. But it wasn't used in turnfights. In general, they pulled the Lewis down in zoom up maneuvers (when the enemy aircraft overshot) or in a straight line. Do you have any quotes of them 'firing across the circle' or turnfighting with the Lewis tilted?

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11 hours ago, J5_Hellbender said:

I fully expect that nothing of the sort will happen, but it would be great to have almost full customization of the plane — as long as it was historically ever an option. I'd love to see single Vickers Sopwith Camels, as flown by the Belgians.

 

My secret dream would be a system where pilots could even tweak their own engines to get a little more performance out of them à la McCudden, Luf, etc. But, of course, that's just a flight of fancy ;) 

 

 

9 hours ago, J5_Baeumer said:

....umm, when did anyone see serious Albie pilots flying consistently with this mod to good effect?    I tried it once every few years in Rof just to remind myself how silly an idea it was....

 

 

Can't deny that seeing an alb with a Lewis makes me think 'Easy kill' rather than 'uh-oh', haha! 

 

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@SeaWolf

ROF & BOX already present the possibility to block mods on hosting level.
Even making it possible to block piloting when taking a gunner position can be overcome with the help of a 2nd PC and dito account.
And what is the difference between gunning-piloting and a 2nd player gunning?
What is wrong about Gotha’s and HP’s dogfighting the more on a quake server, same for tilting the Lewis there?
Both are still games certainly on NFF, it is what people is getting there.
There are other servers or you may host yourself and be selective?
That is my take on it so am I a now troll for it?
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6 hours ago, J2_Trupobaw said:

Define "serious Albie pilot"  😂. J2_Bidu likes to fly this contraption (along with historical white tail Baumer skin 😛) and definetely has good effects with it. Not as good as without it IMHO, but still good. 103_Larner can probably elaborate more, Bidu and Wulfe had shared some kind of Lewis understanding, but I don't remember the details.

I've had quite a bit of experience with it. Itmore than pays off hunting two seaters. I.e. taking down a Gotha not flown by J30s becomes damn easy. On the other hand, the loss of manoeuverability is serious, the risks when diving exacerbated. In a serious environment, which I find occurring less and less in ROF, I would surely use one such equipped plane as part of a team, if hunting two seaters was expected.

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, West said:

And what is the difference between gunning-piloting and a 2nd player gunning?

 

I'll give it a try (*edit). You don't have a broken link with the gunner, especially if he's not on TS. Even on TS, it would take years to create a flow with your gunner and vice versa. Not to mention that you would have to find a mate to create a regular crew. Alone you start as your own crew from day one, and so on so forth. And it is far from realistic if we are talking about a sim.

 

The advantages were discussed before.

Edited by SeaW0lf
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Posted (edited)
The while piloting inversed from being seated is not obvious either so has to stand for lots of practice the while the front-gun is left unmaned.
I never did it and probably will never but do have lots of respect for guys pulling it off.
Some years ago I was in some of the same missions with a guy flying the Spectrum Legacy account who beside pulling off the reversed piloting was a unbelievable crack deflection shooter, if it was in reach he nailed it.
There are so many things that offer advantages over others that starting to deny some that the game clearly offers risks of sounding a bit cheapo.
 
However this brings up the Question @ Trupo:
when you ever would man the backgun of your 2-seater would you shoot the pilot to save wight?
 LOL
Edited by West

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34 minutes ago, West said:
The while piloting inversed from being seated is not obvious either so has to stand for lots of practice the while the front-gun is left unmaned.

 

That's not my impression from all the years seeing people getting hooked by it. Someone who is used to gaming can pull it off without much sweat and time.

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13 hours ago, J2_Bidu said:

I've had quite a bit of experience with it. Itmore than pays off hunting two seaters. I.e. taking down a Gotha not flown by J30s becomes damn easy. 

 

Haha.  Like I said, there's always....one...wink. Your it Bidu! 😆

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