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3.101 - New Startup Procedures

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How about an additional option "Auto start on ground" with a single Key press starts all engines in sequence . Once started CEM is on for the flight.

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Posted (edited)

I honestly don't get all this angst and confusion this new feature is causing people - it's dead simple to engage one of the engine assists for startup and then turn it off afterwards for the rest of the mission. 

 

It's really not that hard, people. :) 

Edited by LukeFF
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Posted (edited)
15 minutes ago, LukeFF said:

I honestly don't get all this angst and confusion this new feature is causing people - it's dead simple to engage one of the engine assists for startup and then turn it off afterwards for the rest of the mission. 

 

It's really not that hard, people. :) 

Seriously this is unreal, you'd think they added full clickable start ups to the game, you literally just go full mix and full rpm, keys that anyone using engine management already have bound, nothing new to do, and then hit E. People will just cry about everything. It's tiresome. I use to think you were kind of hard on people but at this point I find myself agreeing with just about every thing you post/react to... Can't help but laugh sometimes.

Edited by JgonRedcorn
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So I am wasting my precious time trying to start the damn 262. Apparently you need double throttle now and who knows what. It's probably a super simple thing, but nobody bothered to tell us, they just put Requiem's vis out there and are happy. I have nothing but respect for the guy's work, but I have yet to live to see the day, when they are useful to me.

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1 hour ago, Mmaruda said:

 

 

I get your point completely, but it looks to me like now it's additional key binding for the sake of key bindings. WTH is the difference between pressing "E" and pressing "RShift+E"? It's the same problem I have with "elevator trim" vs "vertical stabiliser" in German planes - I get it, they work differently IRL, but it's the same damn thing in game, I bind these to the same keys. They try to convey that in jets you need electrical power first, then the engine startup, fine. Why does it need more buttons though? It's not like the game has you reenact the actual startup anyway. All it does is makes thing more confusing, without the benefit or actually learning how the machine operated IRL / study aspect - you'd need a clickable cockpit for that.

its clearly unneccesary, somehow pressing one more key is better then what we had last 5+ years lol

 

either go full clicable stuff or just keep it as it was, whats the point of this half half thing i dont know

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21 minutes ago, Mmaruda said:

So I am wasting my precious time trying to start the damn 262. Apparently you need double throttle now and who knows what. It's probably a super simple thing, but nobody bothered to tell us, they just put Requiem's vis out there and are happy. I have nothing but respect for the guy's work, but I have yet to live to see the day, when they are useful to me.

So. Did you saw the video?

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1 minute ago, =FEW=fernando11 said:

So. Did you saw the video?

 

Yes. I respect what Requiem does, but let's just say I have an opinion on his work and I will keep it to myself.

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8 minutes ago, Mmaruda said:

 

Yes. I respect what Requiem does, but let's just say I have an opinion on his work and I will keep it to myself.

Fair enough. So, what part Is giving you trouble on starting the engines?

 

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37 minutes ago, JgonRedcorn said:

Seriously this is unreal, you'd think they added full clickable start ups to the game, you literally just go full mix and full rpm, keys that anyone using engine management already have bound, nothing new to do, and then hit E. People will just cry about everything. It's tiresome. I use to think you were kind of hard on people but at this point I find myself agreeing with just about every thing you post/react to... Can't help but laugh sometimes.

 

Who would have thought that adding a tiny step in the startup procedure to make it a bit more engaging would bring all the drama queens out screaming?

 

I think it just triggers all the people who thought they knew how to fly with CEM but in reality they were just barely doing it right and this was the last straw.

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5 minutes ago, =FEW=fernando11 said:

Fair enough. So, what part Is giving you trouble on starting the engines?

 

part where i now have to press 2 keys insted 1, and for no reason what so ever, whole process is still automatic but now i have to manualy incress mix to 100%, how is this improvment to what we had before, is this one more thing to do when starting airplane so important that it had to be separat from all other automatic things pressing key E does ?  will this now atract all thouse DCS guys who like manual starting engines of airplane as now one thing is not any more automatic out of 10 others that are done automatic ? why not have full manual startup then, i dont see the point of this aditional one more thing you need to do every time you refly

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Posted (edited)
17 minutes ago, =FEW=fernando11 said:

Fair enough. So, what part Is giving you trouble on starting the engines?

 

 

So I press E, then wait till 1000 RPM, then press RShift+E and hold it, then wait till 3000 RPM, then move the throttle with my damn elbow, because the right damn shift is quite the opposite side of the keyboard than E, then wait some more, and when I let it go, the engine dies. I have also tried selecting engine 1 than two, at best I can turn on one engine and usually it's the second one. After that I cannot start rolling to one side only, because either the 262 can not go on grass and just spins, or I have the parking brake on, but can't figure out the key combo, but definitely it's not whichever farthest shift and slash it is that engages it, since this does nothing.

 

My gripe is this, you want to do a realistic startup procedure? Fine do it, but announce it beforehand, write a damn manual and don't rely on Youtubers and maybe just maybe make it a proper one and not just add arbitrary keys to press and hold for a single plane, because it does not make any sense in a game, where all you had to do all those years it press one button... ONCE!

 

Am I angry? Well it's 30 degrees in here, I finished work at 10 pm, I am covered in sweat, I have to go to sleep and get up in 3 hours to make it to the office, so I can actually work, because I don't have air conditioning at home. There is more to this, but I get it, I am overreacting over a video game and there is no excuse for this. Sorry.

Edited by Mmaruda
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Just now, Jade_Monkey said:

 

Who would have thought that adding a tiny step in the startup procedure to make it a bit more engaging would bring all the drama queens out screaming?

 

I think it just triggers all the people who thought they knew how to fly with CEM but in reality they were just barely doing it right and this was the last straw.

the point is why add just one more thing, if its not full auto why not make it full manual then, what is it now dosent make sence, for whom your doin it, to atract DCS guys lol with adding one more thing to press

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34 minutes ago, 77.CountZero said:

its clearly unneccesary, somehow pressing one more key is better then what we had last 5+ years lol

 

either go full clicable stuff or just keep it as it was, whats the point of this half half thing i dont know

 

I entirely agree, I like the idea that the devs added another start up step to aid in the realism aspect. But at the end of the day for the end user. This is just an additional keyboard key that needs pressed to perform the same automatic function as just pressing E. If all the other planes also included this feature in their startup processes to provide realism across the board I would be more accepting of a new game mechanic. However currently, only one plane has this additional key combination for the start up process and it is out of place when every other plane in the game is handled by one key press for the same start up process. 

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23 minutes ago, 77.CountZero said:

the point is why add just one more thing, if its not full auto why not make it full manual then, what is it now dosent make sence, for whom your doin it, to atract DCS guys lol with adding one more thing to press

DCS is doomed, whole simming community were waiting for "RShift+E" to come in Il2 🤣🤣🤣

 

I like how they added throttle and mixture manual startup requirement but 

selecting engines on startup in VR hmmm could become annoying very fast, looking trough that nose gap on your VR headset to hit the key on the keyboard.....

Either add clickpit or avoid additional startup keybidings which is also unrealistic so adds nothing other than the problem for VR user.

 

 

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I believe that the basic engine starts we used to have should be a client-side option and not server-side. Otherwise it's just another mechanism to fracture the playerbase. If your engine start choice was client-side anyone can choose to do whatever procedure they want, whether it's "E" to start or all the extra stuff instead. DCS has an auto-start feature to keep things simple for those who just want to get going, so I don't know why Il-2 can't do it the same way.

1 hour ago, Mmaruda said:

 

Yes. I respect what Requiem does, but let's just say I have an opinion on his work and I will keep it to myself.

Feel free to PM your thoughts to me if you like, you won't hurt my feelings. I'm always interested in hearing critiques on how I could do things. If I don't know what people like or don't like I can't make what people want.

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Moving the mixture lever and the rpm lever isn't really a start up procedure though, calling what we have now anything but simple is being silly. Only like 2 german planes require more than hitting e... Good grief.

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1 hour ago, LukeFF said:

I honestly don't get all this angst and confusion this new feature is causing people - it's dead simple to engage one of the engine assists for startup and then turn it off afterwards for the rest of the mission. 

 

It's really not that hard, people. :) 

 

Due to the dearth of printed documentation for the consumer, and absent Requiem making tutorials explaining in detail the sequence of key stroke combinations, learning silly startup sh*t is not fun...it's an irritant. Embracing your version of start up immersion for the sake of realism or whatever the argument you'd like to use is wasted on the likes of me. Having been a flight instructor, I know from experience some folks can't just look at a list of stuff and internalize it...apply it. You clearly can, but your tone is less than helpful. Not saying you're a terrible person, I'm saying if you want to be HELPFUL, put together accurate detailed steps for EVERY airplane using the keyboard strokes needed to go from engine off to regaining full engine autonomy for folks that want to play with CEM. Compile your checklists into a PDF that players can download. That would go a long way of turning folks' level of agitation into a high degree of comfort...sorta like just hitting the E key for start.

 

I'll be singing your praises if you do that.:salute:

 

1 hour ago, JgonRedcorn said:

Seriously this is unreal, you'd think they added full clickable start ups to the game, you literally just go full mix and full rpm, keys that anyone using engine management already have bound, nothing new to do, and then hit E. People will just cry about everything. It's tiresome.

 

What is tiresome is NOT folks complaining about not wanting or understanding changes the Devs make without documentation, it's having to learn the "how to" via a forum thread while the cool kids talk down to the unhappy kids. Here's an example of talking down to other players. The pedant would point out that RL pilots don't says "full mix." It's mixture RICH or AUTO. Nor do they say "full rpm." They say something about the prop control or airscrew lever full forward. My point being, when you want to talk down about those of us that don't share your enthusiasm for the simulated minutia of engine start procedures, your argument carries more gravitas if you at least sound like you know what you're talking about. I'm not saying you're a terrible person, simply not helpful.

 

 

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1 hour ago, 77.CountZero said:

the point is why add just one more thing, if its not full auto why not make it full manual then, what is it now dosent make sence, for whom your doin it, to atract DCS guys lol with adding one more thing to press

Why not? A lot of people are happy, seems like they must be doing something right. You dont like it? Stick to the auto engine management, which is what you are asking.

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Posted (edited)
33 minutes ago, busdriver said:

 

Due to the dearth of printed documentation for the consumer, and absent Requiem making tutorials explaining in detail the sequence of key stroke combinations, learning silly startup sh*t is not fun...it's an irritant. Embracing your version of start up immersion for the sake of realism or whatever the argument you'd like to use is wasted on the likes of me. Having been a flight instructor, I know from experience some folks can't just look at a list of stuff and internalize it...apply it. You clearly can, but your tone is less than helpful. Not saying you're a terrible person, I'm saying if you want to be HELPFUL, put together accurate detailed steps for EVERY airplane using the keyboard strokes needed to go from engine off to regaining full engine autonomy for folks that want to play with CEM. Compile your checklists into a PDF that players can download. That would go a long way of turning folks' level of agitation into a high degree of comfort...sorta like just hitting the E key for start.

 

I'll be singing your praises if you do that.:salute:

 

 

What is tiresome is NOT folks complaining about not wanting or understanding changes the Devs make without documentation, it's having to learn the "how to" via a forum thread while the cool kids talk down to the unhappy kids. Here's an example of talking down to other players. The pedant would point out that RL pilots don't says "full mix." It's mixture RICH or AUTO. Nor do they say "full rpm." They say something about the prop control or airscrew lever full forward. My point being, when you want to talk down about those of us that don't share your enthusiasm for the simulated minutia of engine start procedures, your argument carries more gravitas if you at least sound like you know what you're talking about. I'm not saying you're a terrible person, simply not helpful.

 

 

Right let's write up a full step by step. Here I'll make it simple 100% mix 100% rpm, this is going by the in game technochat to keep things simple. Woo hope everyone followed along. Try not to get too bogged down between steps 1 and 2 I know it's tough. We're really reeling in the study Sim guys now, next stop p3d 737 territory... Shivers! 

Edited by JgonRedcorn

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Posted (edited)

Some players talk about the ME262 bringing in new players. However, these same players appear to mock other players who may take a while to understand new or different things or perhaps tell them to look harder.

We should perhaps all show a little patience towards each other as we can't all be gifted as those who mock. 

Together we can conquer!

 

Regards 

Edited by Haza

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2 hours ago, Mmaruda said:

Yes. I respect what Requiem does, but let's just say I have an opinion on his work and I will keep it to myself.

 

I honestly don't know how one could ever say something negative about what he's doing and been doing for the community, in his own free time. 

15 minutes ago, JgonRedcorn said:

Right let's write up a full step by step. Here I'll make it simple 100% mix 100% rpm, this is going by the in game technochat to keep things simple. Woo hope everyone followed along. Try not to get too bogged down between steps 1 and 2 I know it's tough. We're really reeling in the study Sim guys now, next stop p3d 737 territory... Shivers! 

 

😄 😄 😄 

 

This whole kerfuffle over engine starts is just another example of flight simmers always finding something new to complain about. Flying Circus planes have had this new engine startup procedure since the beginning, and one will be hard-pressed to find anyone down in that forum griping about hard it is to start up those planes - in fact, it was something specifically asked for.

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Well, seeing things on the bright side, start an Spitfire in Bo'x now is more "complex" than in CloD - which has the undeserved "fame" of being complex.

 

In CloD: press Fuel cock key/button, press E. Done.

 

In Bo'X: press Mixture key/button, press RPM key/button, press E. Done. 

 

I think that ARMA3 engine "management" will make success there: just move the throttle and engine is up and hot. 😀

 

 

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15 hours ago, 6./ZG26_Custard said:

Considering the size of the BOBP map, we are going to have some very thirsty Spits and 109's, so fingers crossed for drop tanks at some point. ;)

 

 

 

flying-dray-on-ground.thumb.jpg.275ef956fc17342730320fe1dba73257.jpg

as far as I know - these "special" drop tanks were a Maltese exclusive....

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Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, busdriver said:

The pedant would point out that RL pilots don't says "full mix." It's mixture RICH or AUTO.

 

The fine makers of the P-39, P-40, and P-47 would like to take this moment to remind everyone that the forward mixture position on the throttle quadrant is marked as "Full Rich." :) 

 

Not to mention, I found plenty of references to real-world pilots and instructors saying "Full Mixture." :) 

Edited by LukeFF
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2 hours ago, LukeFF said:

 

I honestly don't know how one could ever say something negative about what he's doing and been doing for the community, in his own free time. 

 

😄 😄 😄 

 

This whole kerfuffle over engine starts is just another example of flight simmers always finding something new to complain about. Flying Circus planes have had this new engine startup procedure since the beginning, and one will be hard-pressed to find anyone down in that forum griping about hard it is to start up those planes - in fact, it was something specifically asked for.

Can we all just agree that Requiem is a class act, and that making this thread was kind of stupid in the first place. What idiot thought that was a good idea!?!?

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I see some wanted easy where the game was not founded on an easy principle called...... FLIGHT. If you bought a sim, you should have expected a sim. You want your easy controls? Play berloga or find another server to cater to you. 

 

Besides, you should have had mix and RPM bound anyway and been using that to get the most out of your plane. If not, I cant help you, only the engine assist can help you. 

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People complain about the change that it will either prevent them from

 

Quote

manually control the engine in flight

 

or force them to 

 

Quote

additional bindings

 

What makes me wonder is how can you have manual control over the engine without RPM and Mixture already bound?

 

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18 hours ago, Herne said:

How did spit pilots know when to drop / switch from external tank ? the fuel gauge just reads the reserve tank doesn't it ? So I guess if they didn't want to risk starving the engine they had to pay close attention to the time used ?

 

 

As per Mk IX Pilot's Notes, Part II, para. 33 (ii), it seems they were indeed supposed to wait till the engine starves: "When the fuel pressure warning light comes on, or the engine cuts, turn OFF the drop tank cock and reselect the main tanks", with additional note - "When it is essential to use all the fuel from the drop tank its cock must be turned OFF and the throttle closed immediately the engine cuts; a fresh tank should then be selected without delay. The booster pump in the newly selected tank should be switched ON, or the hand wobble pump operated, to assist the engine to pick up but in addition to this it may be necessary to windmill the engine at high r.p.m, to ensure an adequate fuel supply"

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The only thing that bothers me about the new startup procedure is, that the devs introduce a new feature, but don't explain how to use it. When they rely on Requiems video (thanks for that @SYN_Requiem), then they could at least link it in the announcements, so everyone can easily find it and does not have to look through all the threads, if there is somewhere an explanation for how to use the new feature.

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12 minutes ago, Yogiflight said:

The only thing that bothers me about the new startup procedure is, that the devs introduce a new feature, but don't explain how to use it. When they rely on Requiems video (thanks for that @SYN_Requiem), then they could at least link it in the announcements, so everyone can easily find it and does not have to look through all the threads, if there is somewhere an explanation for how to use the new feature.

 

I agree, that a link on the DD might have made things a little easier for the community.
 

might be worth having a sticky for a while with requiem's vid, followed by some written step by step instructions ?

Even people who do not regularly use the forum, and are having difficulties with the changes will probably find themselves ending up here to try and find help. Would be nice if it was very easy to find.

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Being a VR flyer the new startup procedure is really no issue.

 

For props and manual engine configs - controls are mapped to HOTAS anyway.

 

For the 262, where I have hat mapping for Supercharger stage changes and for boost - I map 1st engine ignition and 2nd engine ignition.

 

For the throttle - well just use your number 1 and 2 keys to select engines when required.  Easy to find on the keyboard and no different to using other multi engined aircraft.  Keys that are easily findable with HMD in the way just like comms keys are.

 

With manual engine management aircraft, cold starting - I always took it for granted that I would have to set prop pitch and fuel mixture for startup. Also good to check radiators as well.

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So I figured it out with the 262. It's not really that simple and the easy method does not work for me for some reason. What is even more funny, when I turned easy CEM on, to computer was only able to start one engine.

 

So here it goes:

1. Press E

2. Press 1 to select engine 1 (not sure this is default or my binding)

3. Wait for the 1000 RPM mark and and hold right shift + E

4. Pass the 2000 RPM mark while still holding the keys, use elbo to gently move throttle forward, too fast and you'll overheat the engine

5. Bind right shift + E to the supercharger hat on the throttle like Blitze says or grow a 3rd hand to avoid frustration. :)

6. Press 1 again to deselect the first engine and press 2 to select second engine

7. Choke the appropriate button on RPM marks and move throttle like with engine number one.

8. Press 0 to select all engines (again probably my bindings)

9. Zero the throttle to even both virtual throttles out, they should be sitting at 15% at idle.

 

Anyway, finally did it late night. I read most of the comments here and I get the impression, maybe wrong, that there is a lot of this condescending attitude that it's simple, but lazy / new players / whoever can't put in the time etc. For everyone it's a different matter. I work a lot of hours during the week, I have very little time to play. My frustration came from the fact that the time I had to check out the 262 was spent on the ground trying to start the engines and failing to understand the process, fiddling with key bindings etc, instead of flying. I feel like it would be more beneficial to the whole community, if people maybe just posted how to do stuff step by step instead of engaging in discussions like "oh it's a flight sim, you want easy go play Ace Combat" or something.

 

Most of us has grown used to how things work and changes are confusing, especially if not explained. More controls get added, but we have them all in one list, maybe the game should have separate menu section of each plane like DCS?

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Jesus...so much fuss about this. With this new feature you only waste literally  3 seconds putting the levers at the desired position. Nothing else and above that this is also optional.

 

This new thing is very welcomed, it's small but adds a lot. I can't understand this drama.

 

For the 262 it's a more complex thing but once you learn it, you don't have problems. If the problem is the time is not from the sim but yours. I remember expending 3 days to take off a Mig back in the day when I had only 1 or 2 h to spare but the satisfaction later was even better.

 

 

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Posted (edited)

i enjoyed the new startup, but i see why some dont. if time is the limiting factor it would perhaps be better to add a clientside option to start with engines already started also in multiplayer? the autostart takes its time in most planes and if people have limited time they might want to start with engines already running? i cant see what harm it could do.

 

maybe people then would use the time they save to taxi to the runway instead of running into things at full throttle from parking 🙂

Edited by Gridset

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I am in disbelief people are moaning about a feature that adds immersion and only adds seconds to the startup procedure... you can’t win.  And is completely skippable if you wish for it to be via the settings. :wacko:

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Hi folks just a short video showing engine start-up with and without assists. Hopefully some of you will find it of use. 

 

   

 

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Why on earth does anyone bind the ignition for the Me262 turbines to Shift+E? Take any button near your throttle. The 262 is the only aircraft that has this ignition command. So you won't have any issues with the settings for other aircrafts. I took the buttons under the levers of my throttle quadrant, that usually increase prop pitch for me. I didn't find any prop pitch for the 262 so far. Problem solved.

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Just read through this entire thread and am wishing that I hadn't, but am I the only person that set throttle and mixture to where they should be (i.e. to where they go automatically) before pressing E? I've always played without auto assists and with technochat off so it seemed logical to me. And as someone who moaned when Oleg got the startup buttons for the Me163 wrong I am delighted that we have the extra procedure for the Me262. After all, E only starts the Riedel starter motor - in effect you are starting two engines to get the jet going, so two key presses is fine with me. Mapped the new binding to the blip switch - hopefully we never see a rotary jet engine! ;)

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Posted (edited)
9 minutes ago, Red_Cat said:

hopefully we never see a rotary jet engine! ;)

 

why, was that more complex ?

Edited by Herne

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My Yak wont start anymore, I have Mixture at full and throttle at null as usual but the engine just sputters and then wont start again.

Help?

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