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TheOldCrow

Questions and concerns about the Me-262 in MP

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Posted (edited)

The nose down effect happens when the needle is waaaay pas the 1000 mark, after that, tho its bon voyage.

 

All in all, i feel this plane is not going to be "OP" in MP settings. Its really only useful for killing bombers at 6000m +-1000 envelope. 

 

Down in the thick air, you will lose speed in turns, and up in the thin air, p-47 out climbs it and can keep up in its dives... 262 is heavy and need to have speed of 600 to climb well in thin air. Getting this to 10km is a battle. I bet i get LaGG-3 to 10km before 262... maybe :^) 

And sneaking up to anything in that thing is also adventure, as you leave constantly nice exhaust trail for anyone to spot. 

In MP games, to be competitive in this, you need to make it as light as possible... and even then, idd prefer the D-9 for your everyday 7+km Axis space race. 

Anyhow, i am not saying that 262 is bad, it swats B-17s and zeppelins and barns and 10km wide alien invaders like no tomorrow, but even your boston will run circles around this thing. Element of surprise is everything.

Edited by CptSiddy

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the only time the issue of overpower comes into question is up against the bombers.  The 262 will come in and out faster than the current AI can react or comprehend in which the red planes can still counter this by doing their classic pitch evasive maneuvers.

 

I think most of the fear surrounding the 262 being entirely in a league of its own and will just blow everybody out of the water is unrealistic.  Let's be real, most of this fear stems from the fighter pilots and let's also be real, you'll be fine.  Unless the 262 is flying fast (and therefore detracting its ability to maneuver) anything above the 262 can and should have a good chance to catch it especially the American planes.  Other than that just out turn the 262.  Sure he'll catch on to where you may be turning after awhile but at that point that's your fault.  

 

It's the usual "keep your moves unpredictable" solution and the 262 is not much different from dealing with any other Blue.  We all know he's gonna be BnZing.

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19 minutes ago, =KG76=flyus747 said:

the only time the issue of overpower comes into question is up against the bombers.  The 262 will come in and out faster than the current AI can react or comprehend in which the red planes can still counter this by doing their classic pitch evasive maneuvers.

 

I think most of the fear surrounding the 262 being entirely in a league of its own and will just blow everybody out of the water is unrealistic.  Let's be real, most of this fear stems from the fighter pilots and let's also be real, you'll be fine.  Unless the 262 is flying fast (and therefore detracting its ability to maneuver) anything above the 262 can and should have a good chance to catch it especially the American planes.  Other than that just out turn the 262.  Sure he'll catch on to where you may be turning after awhile but at that point that's your fault.  

 

It's the usual "keep your moves unpredictable" solution and the 262 is not much different from dealing with any other Blue.  We all know he's gonna be BnZing.

I've said it before, but the main thing about the 262 is that if the pilots fly it 'as they're supposed to' and stay high and fast, they'll basically be untouchable. However, that also means they'll render themselves irrelevant to a lot of the combat. The high closure speeds are going to make gunnery tricky on fighter-sized targets, and I fully expect we'll see a massive increase in aerial ramming by pilots who don't break off in time. Its going to be difficult to spot 262s due to the render bubble, but its also going to be difficult for them to spot you in time to bounce you.

The real terrors of the skies will remain the 190D-9 and the 109K-4, as they will be much more versatile and pilot friendly, while still having huge advantages over their competition. The 262 is  interesting but I don't see it as a world-beater in fighter vs. fighter combat. If axis flyers are smart they'll use it as an uninterceptible fast bomber.

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38 minutes ago, [N.O.G.F]Leon_Portier said:

Will you cover me when I´m in a 262?

Actually yes I would. I've covered many random bombers and attackers during all multiplayer campaigns. If they need it, you provide it. The way you said it made you come off kind of bratty.

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Posted (edited)

So what we know now when the plane is here.

Me262 is deadly in an experienced hands. Its not sluggish, "heavy" and turns quite ok. It doesnt accelerate too fast but its ok.

Its faster than anything in this game. You cant catch it most of the times (takeoff and landings). Maybe P51 and P47 could catch if diving from higher alt. 

Paired with Dora at high alt it can do whatever f wants.

Engines arent sensitive at all as they were in original Il2. With mod your almost safe from probs. My biggest surprise.

Its an ultimative vulching weapon and as such is being used now in MP.

Sholud be very limited on servers but for now we had a dozen of them in servers I tried last night.

Sure, you can try to fly the whole map till you reach Me262 base but thats tricky as its not RL.....maps arent so huge and ppl are on TS always alerted when someone is near the base...

Edited by =VARP=Tvrdi
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12 hours ago, II./JG77_HankDG said:

Actually yes I would. I've covered many random bombers and attackers during all multiplayer campaigns. If they need it, you provide it. The way you said it made you come off kind of bratty.

Oh thats really nice, thank you!

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I'm slightly disappointed to have the engine mod.

I've never heard of it before, but have to presume it was used at some point back in the day...

 

It effectively nullifies the 262's major quirk and is a bit of an 'easy' mode, isn't it ?

Be good if server operators disabled this..

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On 6/9/2019 at 7:21 AM, Tyberan said:

That would be cool to see players protecting the me262 on finals with the doras. 

 

Good luck with that mate... Normally they won't even protect a bunch of their own bombers to and from target.

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Posted (edited)
42 minutes ago, Zooropa_Fly said:

I'm slightly disappointed to have the engine mod.

I've never heard of it before, but have to presume it was used at some point back in the day...

 

It effectively nullifies the 262's major quirk and is a bit of an 'easy' mode, isn't it ?

Be good if server operators disabled this..

Thats not entirely true. The Jumo 109-004B1 had more issues than could be solved with the fuel overpressure valve. If you throttle your engine back below 6000 RPM at quickly high altitudes you risk to starve your engine because the fuel mix can not be adjusted quick enought. 

 

Abuse the ignition button and your engines will light up nicely. Restarts can only be attempted at below 4000m.

 

Compressor stalls also may kill your engine when the aircraft is under high load.

 

No need to mention how terribly vulnerable the engines are to gunfire. 

Edited by 6./ZG26_5tuka
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I was surprised at how easily AAA gunners could track and blow the wings off the thing when attacking ground targets.  I came screaming in at 800+ and BANG!  Wing gone.  Happened several times in my testing.  Also, tried "mixing it up" with mixed flights of LaGG 3, Yak 1, and I 16s on one of the DF maps I have.  It's like chasing gnats with a bulldozer.  Just not worth the effort.  The thing does make short work of Russian gunboats though.

 

For me, in the current game meta, I see the 262 as a high speed ground attack bird, or used as a bomber interceptor, if there were any bombers to intercept.

 

6Iwoc8.jpg

Myself and BlitzPig_WingN during attack testing.

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Posted (edited)
25 minutes ago, BlitzPig_EL said:

I was surprised at how easily AAA gunners could track and blow the wings off the thing when attacking ground targets

 

That is because how AI takes and updates its lead calculation. Doing a 400 --> 700, a 300 km/h delta in V while diving on targets results in AI usually missing everything.

 

Coming a steady 800 and having much smaller delta means the predictive gunning on AI works far far better :crazy:

 

Avoiding AAA fire in IL-2 is all about change in velocity and vector. While in real life, high absolute speed adds considerable difficulty even on its own. 

 

25 minutes ago, BlitzPig_EL said:

It's like chasing gnats with a bulldozer. 

 

You can dogfight 262 with A-20 and win :^) 

Edited by CptSiddy
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Just used it for some ship hunting in Kuban. Friggin' love it. 

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Posted (edited)

Restarted engines in the thing after throttling down too quickly, got just below about 500kph before I turned them back on and was back up to 630+ in no time.   Feels like your only real chance at nailing another fighter is if they're flying rather straight and level or maybe climbing/diving but without turning.     When you set the stab to tail heavy, you do get a little more control in a turn fight but I feel like it's just putting yourself at risk. After a sortie or two in it, I feel like if you get caught anywhere but landing/taking off you're flying it wrong.  Even if you aren't able to line up a shot on a fighter who knows you're there when you're flying it to its strengths.   I feel sorry for any bombers who find themselves in front of the guns. 

Edited by =IL2AU=ToknMurican

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21 hours ago, TheOldCrow said:

 

After trying it out a 262 needs the element of surprise to do alot of damage and get kills. Diving at speed can be easily countered by a quick turn after the dive becomes too fast.

 

I also forsee alot of accidentally unrecoverable dive deaths, once you hit 850-900 kmh the nose tucks and the dive is so extreme I have yet to recover from it

Full pitch up and a little flaps, I've yet to not get out of it

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12 minutes ago, Joeasyrida said:

Full pitch up and a little flaps, I've yet to not get out of it

I've found I need at least 3000 meters of altitude to pull out of the mach tuck.

 

Stab tail heavy 5% flaps and full pitch up and oh boy it was a ride.

 

The worst comes if you get jolted into the tuck and red out leaving you without control authority for quite a while

 

 

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Posted (edited)
32 minutes ago, Joeasyrida said:

Full pitch up and a little flaps, I've yet to not get out of it

just use +% stabilazer and youll be able to pull up on any speed if you have few 1000m, i avoid flaps as they can get stuck

Edited by 77.CountZero

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Posted (edited)

Well, I say, what we need in MP to satisfy the more carefree and enthusiastic 262 pilots and keep the peace (so to speak) on the current servers, is some jet races on an air race server.  This'll keep those speed-crazed hooligans busy and serve as a distraction from the more serious servers so they don't vulch as much.  Forgive my ignorance if one already exists, I know I've seen some threads about the DED server but sadly I don't see it online in MP.  

 

In CFS we had the most awesome river races, in IL2 1946 I remember a couple great MP race maps, we even raced Dr.1's in RoF on the NewWings server race course.  Yes, not realistic but it keeps those dadgum hot rod delinquents off the streets. 

 

- said the world's fastest IL2 BoX Me262 pilot, who has yet to be shown otherwise 😁

 

 

Edited by Stoopy
Added taunt
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6 minutes ago, Stoopy said:

Well, I say, what we need in MP to satisfy the more carefree and enthusiastic 262 pilots is some jet races on an air race server.  This'll keep those speed-crazed hooligans busy and serve as a distraction from the more serious servers so they don't vulch as much.  Forgive my ignorance if one already exists, I know I've seen some threads about the DED server but sadly I don't see it online in MP.  

 

In CFS we had the most awesome river races, in IL2 1946 I remember a couple great MP race maps, we even raced Dr.1's in RoF on the NewWings server race course.  Yes, not realistic but it keeps those dadgum hot rod delinquents off the streets. 

 

That sounds amazing!!

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Posted (edited)
40 minutes ago, [N.O.G.F]Leon_Portier said:

That sounds amazing!!

 Oh, it definitely was... is... and could be 😎

 

- said the world's fastest IL2 BoX Me262 pilot, who has yet to be shown otherwise 😁

Edited by Stoopy
taunt a second time

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On 6/8/2019 at 10:19 PM, TheOldCrow said:

Both brought up how vulnerable the jet was at take off and landings. How allied P-51's would follow them back to base to shoot down on final or strafe on the ground.

 

My questions are this, Will we see more Allied planes fly deeper in to enemy lines to score easy 262 kills? Will vulching 262's become a problem?

 

I would definite recommend the book btw very solid read and a lot of info on eastern front in Krupinski's interview.

 

More than the Germans vulch already? Allied planes don't even last 20 seconds above German airfields.

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20 minutes ago, Y-29.Silky said:

 

More than the Germans vulch already? Allied planes don't even last 20 seconds above German airfields.

Then your doing it wrong 😂

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Was a great low level sharking machine in old Il-2, seems even more able this time around.  Keep 700 Kph at tree top and kill anything up to 1500 meters by ambush.  You have the advantage, nearly impossible for them to see you against the ground, and they'll stand out easy to spot above.  You don't have to vulch over the airfield, just establish a 700 Kph extra wide orbit around it in the weeds and wait for chum.  Anyone diving in from above has a ground contact problem to calculate, there won't be much wiggle room down in the dirt for an easy firing pass.

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9 hours ago, [CPT]Crunch said:

Was a great low level sharking machine in old Il-2, seems even more able this time around.  Keep 700 Kph at tree top and kill anything up to 1500 meters by ambush.  You have the advantage, nearly impossible for them to see you against the ground, and they'll stand out easy to spot above.  You don't have to vulch over the airfield, just establish a 700 Kph extra wide orbit around it in the weeds and wait for chum.  Anyone diving in from above has a ground contact problem to calculate, there won't be much wiggle room down in the dirt for an easy firing pass.

 

So its War Thunder "Sim" Jets all over again  :-) 

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If they would have suffered from our visibility issues during the big one, it would have been exactly that, never done war thunder though, so wouldn't know. 🤤

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It’s gloriously awful, just like one would expect from a first generation jet fighter. I shot one down in my Sopwith Camel. Those turbines sure look pretty when on fire.

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Now there's a duel proposition if ever I saw one.. or is it a case of jet-envy ? 

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Posted (edited)
On 6/9/2019 at 4:29 AM, Bremspropeller said:

Depends on the server.

If they have L@Zerflak (TM) installed all around the airfields, then historical operations against Me 262 ("vulching") will become difficult.

  

I'm confident the number of 262s will be limited on the more serious servers and there will always be some Johnny Dweebson who turns the only available 262 into a smoking hole in the ground during take-off or landing.

 

 

Airfields were very well defended for obvious reasons.  The 262 didn't have airbrakes, however, and needed considerable distance to/from airfields to speed up/slow down so that's where they were ambushed, beyond the periphery of the defenses.  The Germans response was to try and set up approach/departure flak corridors.

On 6/9/2019 at 4:29 AM, Bremspropeller said:

 

 

 

Edited by chuter
remove duplication

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At the rate the Luftwaffe team uses the 262 currently (I'm only on the combatbox server), it reminds me of when gaijin brought the JU-288 out, except it's even more difficult to get a shot on a 262.  In the meantime, it can bomb targets with near impunity.

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On ‎6‎/‎9‎/‎2019 at 1:19 PM, TheOldCrow said:

 

My questions are this, Will we see more Allied planes fly deeper in to enemy lines to score easy 262 kills? Will vulching 262's become a problem?

 

I think you will see quite the opposite.  The 262 will become the vulcher's favourite ride to get them to the allied airfields as quickly as possible, without having to endure all that boring flying stuff.  It will give them the speed and firepower to disrupt other players with impunity.  Before long you will see the numbers of 262's tightly restricted with the fuel state limited to prevent them reaching anything but the most forward of ground targets.  That's the way it panned out in Il-2 1946, and it will almost certainly go the same way here.

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On 6/9/2019 at 3:35 PM, III./JG7-MarkWilhelmsson said:

If you scroll through the 190 D9 skins you'll see a few with bright red bellies. These were painted this colour by units of D9s that were dedicated to taking off first and giving cover to 262s as they took off. The red belly scheme was to help German AA crews not shoot down friendly aircraft during furballs over airfields. Look up Platzschultzstaffel.

 

The 262 creates a bit of a problem for the game as currently structured.  Whilst it's true the landings and departures of the 262s were  sometimes covered by piston engine fighters,  for the most part, this job was given to ancillary flak companies specifically deployed along the length of the flight paths in and out of the 262 airfields.  These augmented flak defenses would extend out many kms (up to 10 kms in some instances) beyond the airfield boundaries.  Given the highly vulnerable state of the 262 on landing and takeoff, it's hard to see how they'd be viable, in-game, without the augmented flak.

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16 minutes ago, Wulf said:

Given the highly vulnerable state of the 262 on landing and takeoff, it's hard to see how they'd be viable, in-game, without the augmented flak.

 

And what obstacle is there for a mission designer to create such a flak alley?

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4 hours ago, Feathered_IV said:

 

I think you will see quite the opposite.  The 262 will become the vulcher's favourite ride to get them to the allied airfields as quickly as possible, without having to endure all that boring flying stuff.  It will give them the speed and firepower to disrupt other players with impunity.  Before long you will see the numbers of 262's tightly restricted with the fuel state limited to prevent them reaching anything but the most forward of ground targets.  That's the way it panned out in Il-2 1946, and it will almost certainly go the same way here.


Right now some servers are doing a bit of a free for all with the 262s so people get a chance to fly the plane online. Its definitely going to be more restricted once people get it out of their system. Plane performance is already pretty lopsided online so if people want anything to shoot at they're going to have to understand when limitations are proposed. Especially since in reality they were so few in number. Honestly I would prefer having a rear airfield that 262s launched from rather than limiting fuel. basically, they have enough range to make it to the enemy airfields, but they have to reeeally watch their fuel consumption to make sure they get home and can't loiter for long. Likewise, allied fighters wanting to 'vulch' the 262 airfields would have a long way to go to reach the airfield and have a long trek back over enemy territory, so its risky but potentially rewarding. It would feel less 'cheap' if you knew that a lot of effort went into that guy demolishing you on landing approach. Mind you lots of people consider it a personal affront every time they are shot down.

People hand-wringing about the 262s getting vulched is just adorable. As you mentioned, they are the vulchers par excellence. If you're flying the fastest, most heavily armed fighter in the game, I have no sympathy if you feel a little fear on landing approach. 

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1 hour ago, AeroAce said:

 

And what obstacle is there for a mission designer to create such a flak alley?

 

Oh I don't know, maybe a performance hit?  My point is, that these extended flak defenses don't typically exist, as airfields are currently set up, but they may well be required if RL is any guide. 

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2 hours ago, Wulf said:

 

Oh I don't know, maybe a performance hit?  

 

Not really - not in single player anyway.

Further, I’m not sure how statements can be made about what ‘typically exists” on a map and missions that haven’t been released yet. 

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3 hours ago, RedKestrel said:

Mind you lots of people consider it a personal affront every time they are shot down.

 

Lol.

 

I find it insulting when people point their plane and it's cannons in my general direction.

 

When they start shooting at me I take it as a great disrespect 😆

 

 

 

 

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32 minutes ago, 307_Banzai said:

Lol.

 

I find it insulting when people point their plane and it's cannons in my general direction.

 

When they start shooting at me I take it as a great disrespect 😆

 

 

 

 

I always take is as a compliment! They must think me a high-calibre person!

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On 6/13/2019 at 8:02 AM, Wulf said:

 

The 262 creates a bit of a problem for the game as currently structured.  Whilst it's true the landings and departures of the 262s were  sometimes covered by piston engine fighters,  for the most part, this job was given to ancillary flak companies specifically deployed along the length of the flight paths in and out of the 262 airfields.  These augmented flak defenses would extend out many kms (up to 10 kms in some instances) beyond the airfield boundaries.  Given the highly vulnerable state of the 262 on landing and takeoff, it's hard to see how they'd be viable, in-game, without the augmented flak.

 

That was only necessary because the allies had complete air superiority, and so could roam the skies freely on those approaches and bounce landing 262s. And so extensive flak was needed.

 

This is never going to be the case in this sim, where the complete allied air superiority will never be simulated. And therefore the whole idea of the allies taking out the 262s on landing will not be any more prevalent than it has been beforehand. Anyone going "262 hunting" by enemy airfields will be shot down by the LW, who are inexplicably fielding the same number (and sometimes many more) of aircraft as the allies, and do not have to worry about getting bounced by 2 dozen allied planes the moment they take to the skies.

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