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Supertaquito

Tips vs Russians and gun lead.

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Heya,

What are some tips to fly against Russian planes? I know they are superior to Germans at low altitudes, but even if I am clocking 600 MPH and go for the clouds they still catch up to me, outclimb, and perform at any altitude be it 2k or even 6k. I thought Russians underperformed at high altitudes?

Also, I noticed when I was chasing a level flight plane that even in level flight my guns fall way too short even if I am at 300m from the target, I feel the shells fall way too short when I am in any kind of persuit and no amount of lead helps as there is a point I need to give so much lead I can't even see the plane I am aiming at. Not a rookie in flight sims, but things just feel ''wrong'' with this game when it comes to energy management and gun accuracy in Germans vs Russians.

Could you share some tips, please?

Thanks.

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Gun solutions: shoot when closer than 100m. That means that their wing span fills your reticle circle. I personally shoot at distances <50m.

 

Which mathups are you asking about? I can link one of my older posts about fighting russians in 109s, 190s are a tad different matter.

 

 

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Don't confuse a good sustained climb rate for better at climbing in any situation. Generally speaking, German planes climb faster than Soviet planes, yes. This doesn't mean that you will be able to just point the nose up and get away every time. Even though a Yak can't keep up with a 109 in a 5 minute, max power, climb it can hold out long enough in a climb to get guns on target and as you slow down in a steep climb you become easier to shoot. At the end of the day you can't out climb a bullet so you shouldn't try. One thing you can try, rather than climbing like mad and hoping not to get shot is something 109 player's seem convinced is a terrible idea: turn. Contrary to popular belief the 109 is fairly good in a turn, and rolls decently. These facts along with the climbing performance mean the plane is good is scissors, better in rolling scissors and very good in yoyos. The low speed stability imparted by the leading edge slats make for wicked overshoot potential as well. 

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Who told you they were better at low altitude?  Like he said above, 3D fight, combine your turn fight with a vertical component and in a Axis bird your the master at any altitude. 

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4 hours ago, Disarray said:

Don't confuse a good sustained climb rate for better at climbing in any situation. Generally speaking, German planes climb faster than Soviet planes, yes. This doesn't mean that you will be able to just point the nose up and get away every time. Even though a Yak can't keep up with a 109 in a 5 minute, max power, climb it can hold out long enough in a climb to get guns on target and as you slow down in a steep climb you become easier to shoot. At the end of the day you can't out climb a bullet so you shouldn't try. One thing you can try, rather than climbing like mad and hoping not to get shot is something 109 player's seem convinced is a terrible idea: turn. Contrary to popular belief the 109 is fairly good in a turn, and rolls decently. These facts along with the climbing performance mean the plane is good is scissors, better in rolling scissors and very good in yoyos. The low speed stability imparted by the leading edge slats make for wicked overshoot potential as well.


Yeah I get what you mean. It's impossible for me to get a kill on the 109. I was just in a sustained climb at 600kph chasing 2 MiG-3s, one of them stalled and I kept chasing the one with more energy.

The one who stalled took 5 seconds to 180, get energy catch on to me and shot me out with a short burst from over 600 meters away. That doesn't make any sense.

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Russians typically shine in 1v1, keep that in mind. Now go and find 3 teammates, saddle up 4 Fw 190 A-3s, and the story will change dramatically. German aircraft were built to very effectively clear each others tails, not their own. In other words, they are outstanding in "drag'n'bag" - but sadly they are often judged by their 1v1 dogfighting performance.

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32 minutes ago, CrazyDuck said:

Russians typically shine in 1v1, keep that in mind. Now go and find 3 teammates, saddle up 4 Fw 190 A-3s, and the story will change dramatically. German aircraft were built to very effectively clear each others tails, not their own. In other words, they are outstanding in "drag'n'bag" - but sadly they are often judged by their 1v1 dogfighting performance.

 

I'm fairly sure no one designed their primary aerial supremacy fighters to only be operatively effective in 4-1 numerical superiority. That may end up being how they were used, esp. with older types in frontline service, but as a design principle that's a very shaky foundation. Operational tactics is another matter.

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1 hour ago, Luftschiff said:

 

I'm fairly sure no one designed their primary aerial supremacy fighters to only be operatively effective in 4-1 numerical superiority. That may end up being how they were used, esp. with older types in frontline service, but as a design principle that's a very shaky foundation. Operational tactics is another matter.

 

I think you got the wrong impression.

Soviet planes shine in a 1v1 situation, German planes shine in a 4v4 situation.

 

In a 1v1 fight, neither plane can quickly and easily disengage unless one is much faster than the other. The fight is therefor more likely to devolve into a low level, low speed turn fight as both sides trade energy for position in order to get a shot or defend from one. Perfect for the somewhat slower russian planes who excel on the deck, turning at slow speed and who need to sit on the six to get a kill because of their somewhat weak guns.

 

In a 4v4 fight, it is easy for German planes to disengage with only a small speed differance as any Russian that starts to chase another plane is an easy target and is likely to have to brerak the chase to defend himself. Germans who disengage can quickly build enough energy to engage again and now have plenty of speed to disengage with ease, without losing any energy. Such slashing attacks will force the Russians to use up their energy in evasive manouvers, making the situation worse for them.

The situation is perfect for German planes which handle high speed well, gain energy in climbs quickly and often have enough firepower to get kills without needing to sit on the enemy's six for long.

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10 hours ago, Disarray said:

the 109 is fairly good in a turn, and rolls decently. These facts along with the climbing performance mean the plane is good is scissors, better in rolling scissors and very good in yoyos. 

 

Not sure if you're referring to the same sim here? The BF109 roll rate/ailerons are very poor by any measure, which is anything but a decent fact about the machine. Even the F4- it's actually over twice as slow as the LA5FN in rolling maneuverability, a tremendous disparity to overlook. 

 

Regards

 

 

 

 

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1 hour ago, [DBS]Browning said:

 

I think you got the wrong impression.

Soviet planes shine in a 1v1 situation, German planes shine in a 4v4 situation.

 

In a 1v1 fight, neither plane can quickly and easily disengage unless one is much faster than the other. The fight is therefor more likely to devolve into a low level, low speed turn fight as both sides trade energy for position in order to get a shot or defend from one. Perfect for the somewhat slower russian planes who excel on the deck, turning at slow speed and who need to sit on the six to get a kill because of their somewhat weak guns.

 

In a 4v4 fight, it is easy for German planes to disengage with only a small speed differance as any Russian that starts to chase another plane is an easy target and is likely to have to brerak the chase to defend himself. Germans who disengage can quickly build enough energy to engage again and now have plenty of speed to disengage with ease, without losing any energy. Such slashing attacks will force the Russians to use up their energy in evasive manouvers, making the situation worse for them.

The situation is perfect for German planes which handle high speed well, gain energy in climbs quickly and often have enough firepower to get kills without needing to sit on the enemy's six for long.

 

That was a much clearer description of what you meant, thank you for elaborating! I'm still hesitant to posit that this was the purpose of the 109's design, but it certainly holds true in the sim today. I'd say gun damage follows the reverse of your argument, but your point remains solid. 

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6 hours ago, Bilbo_Baggins said:

 

Not sure if you're referring to the same sim here? The BF109 roll rate/ailerons are very poor by any measure, which is anything but a decent fact about the machine. Even the F4- it's actually over twice as slow as the LA5FN in rolling maneuverability, a tremendous disparity to overlook. 

 

Regards

 

 

 

 

 

I never said they are the best in rolls. I said they are good at it. Sure if you compare a plane that has a good roll rate to a plane that has one of the best roll rates it will look bad. The point still stands, a 109 brought into a rolling scissors or other, similar, maneuver at the right time can walk all over an opponent. It will certainly fare better than if you just point the nose up and hope you can out climb bullets.

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With some rudder you can increase the 109 roll rate a bit which makes it really good in rolling scissors, combined with it's climbrate against Yaks.

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22 hours ago, Supertaquito said:

Also, I noticed when I was chasing a level flight plane that even in level flight my guns fall way too short even if I am at 300m from the target, I feel the shells fall way too short when I am in any kind of persuit and no amount of lead helps as there is a point I need to give so much lead I can't even see the plane I am aiming at.

What is your convergence setting? With the historical correct convergence of 400m this can't be. Or you are guessing the distance wrong, when your rounds all fall short.

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2 hours ago, Yogiflight said:

What is your convergence setting? With the historical correct convergence of 400m this can't be. Or you are guessing the distance wrong, when your rounds all fall short.


350 meters. I was just in a match where an IL-2 filled my reticle and the shells still did not hit it as I was diving on it. This game cannot be this hard, it's not my first rodeo, but I don't get how people do it so easily and I just can't even land shots on planes that are not parked.

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1 minute ago, Supertaquito said:


350 meters. I was just in a match where an IL-2 filled my reticle and the shells still did not hit it as I was diving on it. This game cannot be this hard, it's not my first rodeo, but I don't get how people do it so easily and I just can't even land shots on planes that are not parked.

Practice makes perfect; Set up your convergence higher and shoot higher!

 

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2 minutes ago, =FSB=Man-Yac said:

Practice makes perfect; Set up your convergence higher and shoot higher!

 


I can't mate. I have to shoot so high I can't even see the target. I don't know if it's because the 109 has such a long nose, but it's not working out for me. I don't have xray vision to see what a plane under my nose is doing.

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51 minutes ago, Supertaquito said:


I can't mate. I have to shoot so high I can't even see the target. I don't know if it's because the 109 has such a long nose, but it's not working out for me. I don't have xray vision to see what a plane under my nose is doing.

You are talking about the Friedrich or Gustav, don't you? That is very odd, as they are the german fighters it is the easiest to hit with. With the centered maingun the nearest to the Revi. The Emil, Focke Wulf and the 110 had their mainguns much lower, which would make it more understandable, when your rounds go low. As Browning posted, a track would help to understand, what is going wrong.

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Yeah, we need a track for sure. You should not be missing an Il2 which fills your gunsight. Killing it can be difficult but hitting it in that scenario should not be.

 

0-50 should be hitting no matter what, 100-200 should be aiming a hair low but not much, 200-400 should be about dead on, 400-500 should be aiming a hair high. This is all assuming a straight and level target from dead six. Add any movement to either aircraft and you have to adjust point of aim for point of impact. In any type of low to moderate G maneuver the opponent will be below your nose. High G and it will be well below your nose. 

 

Practice with A-20's offline to get an idea of your aiming points. They tend to fly mostly level until engaged at close quarters.

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Posted (edited)
On 5/19/2019 at 3:41 PM, Supertaquito said:

Also, I noticed when I was chasing a level flight plane that even in level flight my guns fall way too short even if I am at 300m from the target, I feel the shells fall way too short when I am in any kind of persuit and no amount of lead helps as there is a point I need to give so much lead I can't even see the plane I am aiming at. Not a rookie in flight sims, but things just feel ''wrong'' with this game when it comes to energy management and gun accuracy in Germans vs Russians.

Could you share some tips, please?

 

Ignore all the useless and typical "get good" posts. Firstly an issue you are facing is that the German bullets travel at a slower FPS or feet per second than Russian bullets. This is because the German casings are designed to be compact for quantity and the Russian casings are long for maximum penetration. So larger the casing the more powder and the more power. Thus one has more ammo for the trade off of slower speed and the other has less ammo for trade off of less ammo count and better penetration, that was the simplified explanation. A basic to remember when flying 109s is, MG17s are 8mm, MG131s are .50 cal, and 151s are 20mm. So remember German planes require more lead in order to land shots.

Now do a few quick missions using a Yak or Mig against A20s while practicing attacks/deflection from the sides or rear and you will quickly see these planes require very little lead to hit the target. However straight/flat attack paths will be roughly the same result for either German or Russian bullet trajectory at 500m. Once you do a few practice quick missions of that, switch back to flying German or your favorite 109. You will see now a significant increase in the amount of lead you will need in order hit the target during turns or while deflection aiming. Turns/banks will require even more lead in order to hit the target in German planes depending on the angle of attack. (See my angle of attack picture for a rough and basic idea of where to aim.)  Also in your quick mission, go to the difficulty settings in the bottom right and turn on aim assist. That will provide the best insight on where you should be aiming and it is a great way to figure things out. 

 

But Gero why are you saying this??? Because flying Russian will give you the result you expect to achieve via less target lead. Then when you switch back to German, you will see why it was so difficult when flying German before because more target lead will be necessary. 



Secondly, be sure your controls are set up to be smooth and not jerky. Very fine small movements are key in iL-2 for accurate fire. The planes are very sensitive to vertical up/down changes with a joystick. So use a heavy 70% curve keep things smooth for small adjustments when flying. Play around with such curves to find what works best for you. 

 

Here is the best way to set up a practice mission. Choose your plane and choose an A20 fully loaded with fuel/bombs on novice using the pursuit approach. Once you get use to shooting and picking your approach, add in more A20s. Once the A20s are easy pickings, switch to shooting down the tough iL-2s. A20s are my preferred flying target practice though slow JU52s work great for beginners as well.
ljQN1Dz.jpg

 

 

 

Now here is a simple and basic picture showing a standard German reticle. Nothing super accurate about this picture or technique but I hope it will imprint the idea of where to expect your bullets to be landing. Honestly, once you get an idea of what to expect then the mils really no longer matter for snap estimation shots. But the mils are critical for accurate fire. Also this information below should be only be used within 100-300m of the target. Very up close and personal fighting. Watch for debre...

So looking at positions, 1,2,3, and 4. You see there is spacing between each red line. Each red line represents where your bullets will be impacting depending on your angle or degree of attack during maneuvers in combat. Thus you will aim at your target but the bullets cannot travel that distance fast enough in a turn. For this example, I will only be describing vertical attacks/deflection by pulling back on the stick to bring the nose up. However the basics of this can be applied to any direction.

Think of these positions as kentucky windage reference points in maneuvers. Not perfect, but close enough.

Position 1, zero angle of attack, flying straight, bullets will be around the center out to 500m.  

Position 2, slight angle of attack of 5-15 degrees.

Position 3, strong angle of attack at 20-30 degrees

Position 4, an extreme angle of attack at 40 degrees or more. Bullets will be hitting target directly from the tip of the nose.

 

Also keep in mind position 4 is nearly firing blind as we are firing at a target we cannot see from the retical. Pretty much this position can only be accurately achieved by people using VR or very good trackIR where they can move the camera far forward and upward in order to see the target from the plane's nose cap. You will see pilots like DerSheriff or Iflycentral doing this quite often for their high angle deflection shooting. Just remember a smooth joystick curve is key to keeping a stable shooting arc or reticle aim at all times.

SyR26Mf.png

 

Here is an example in action. The redline is where the bullets are traveling just by pulling back on the stick and results in impacts at position 2 or 100 mils. 
(can barely see the yellow tracer. diffcult to screenshot this)

TELzItf.png

 

And lastly, a 1000x better explanation over what I'm talking about. Video helps greatly.  

 

 

Hope this helps, and I'm sure it will cause more questions than answers.  

Edited by Geronimo553
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11 hours ago, Supertaquito said:


350 meters. I was just in a match where an IL-2 filled my reticle and the shells still did not hit it as I was diving on it. This game cannot be this hard, it's not my first rodeo, but I don't get how people do it so easily and I just can't even land shots on planes that are not parked.

Hi Kollege,

 

take a look at some YT - deflection shooting videos and connect on the Berloga and practice. ;)

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On 5/20/2019 at 10:05 AM, Luftschiff said:

I'm fairly sure no one designed their primary aerial supremacy fighters to only be operatively effective in 4-1 numerical superiority.

 

Let me clarify - I was implying that Fw 190 is deadlier in 4 v 4 or even more (not 4 v 1) situations, as opposed to 1 v 1. While a single Fw 190 A-3 might struggle against a single well flown Yak-1 (at low altitudes), 4 well flown and coordinated Focke Wulfs will prove deadly vs 4 or dare I say even 8 Yaks. Speed and firepower are what makes an aircraft an excellent team player (with maneuverability nearly irrelevant) and the 190 has both.

 

It's the very same argument that historically makes the F6F or F4U superior to the Zero. They were superior to Zeros over the battlefield because they were either dominating them through team tactics, either engaging through E advantage, or disengaging (speed advantage enabled them to) if they wanted. F6F or F4U without energy advantage and without room to dive away was playing with fire in 1 v 1 dogfight vs a Zero.  

 

"There were times, however, that I tangled with a Zero at slow speed, one on one. In these instances I considered myself fortunate to survive the battle." ~ Kenneth Walsh, first F4U ace, 21 kills.

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Hey all,

Many thanks for all the help. I did plenty of research, and still something was just not working out for me. Like I had said, this was not my first combat sim, nor the fist time I've practiced deflection, and types of pursuit.

However, it WAS the first time I had been using Track IR on IL-2 after using it on DCS World, and that was a mistake. The profile I had set up for DCS was incredibly inappropriate for IL-2, so I modified a profile for IL-2 and BAM. Problem is solved. It looks like the gunsight tends to go into a misalignment if the Track Ir profile is too sensitive and twitchy and that little misalignment was enough to throw off my aim completely.

I sorted it out, and I'm back to my usual self of a 4 to 1 K/D ratio.

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3 hours ago, Supertaquito said:

However, it WAS the first time I had been using Track IR on IL-2 after using it on DCS World, and that was a mistake. The profile I had set up for DCS was incredibly inappropriate for IL-2, so I modified a profile for IL-2 and BAM. Problem is solved. It looks like the gunsight tends to go into a misalignment if the Track Ir profile is too sensitive and twitchy and that little misalignment was enough to throw off my aim completely.

 

I have never heard of that before nor how it could prevent someone from hitting something at 300m at level flight. The retical always keeps zero from any direction of view so long as you can see the center.

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54 minutes ago, Geronimo553 said:

 

I have never heard of that before nor how it could prevent someone from hitting something at 300m at level flight. The retical always keeps zero from any direction of view so long as you can see the center.

 

I was compensating for the reticle appearing off center and it was making me shoot lower all the time. *shrug* It works now, so.

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