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von_Michelstamm

Cannons on top button of luftwaffe stick

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Anyone else do this? Im a slave to realism so I’ve set up my kg12  with mgs on trigger and cannons on the top button.

boy oh boy does it make gunnery hard. It’s really tough not to jerk the stick when trying to press two buttons at the same time. Guess it takes practice.

my nightmare now is a bogey flying almost dead center and me trying to get the crosshairs on him and fire before he moves. Nothing more humiliating than jerking away from an easy shot.

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Why does this song come to mind after reading this post?:mda:

 

 

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I shelved my kg12 grip and mount MCG grip with two stage trigger but in 99.999999999999999% i fire them both in the same time.

I find it useful to separate only when engaging soft ground targets.

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nah, this thing is great, I love having less stuff for my right hand to do (moved from the x56,). Put rubber bands on the cams to get more resistance and drilled a screw in to lock the twist. Other than the jerking, my hand is happier.

I'll just have to keep working my muscles till everything is smooth as lotion.

I guess I just made this post to whine, or for someone to tell me that most Luftwaffe aces had the ground crew twist the wires together so everything fired from the trigger 😁

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Personally I like the ability to fire the different weapons. In CLOD I had the 109 MGs loaded with a huge % of tracer to grab the attention (and maybe inject a little panic into the Britischer schweinhunds) while the 20mm were without tracer so that I could open fire and the target remained unaware.

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For ultimate realism I followed Comrade Pokryshkin's orders to wire up all my P-39's guns to one trigger 😎

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Posted (edited)

Up until recently I had MGs on the trigger and Cannons on a button on the throttle.     The theory was that I would use the Mgs for most shots, including, long shots and ones I was not sure about, then use the less numerous cannons when I was unlikely to miss.      What actually happened is that even after six months with that set up I kept missing kills because I forgot to fire the cannons with the MGs when I had my target nicely in my sights.    Last week I swapped to having *all* guns on the trigger and the throttle button just for MGs (for low-odds shots and long shots when it would be a waste of cannon shells)

Edited by 56RAF_Roblex

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That could be the RL reason why in the fw190 all guns are fired by the same button. Maybe the designers just had statistics that proved beyond any doubt that using all guns all the time increases kill ratio, so they decided to altogether remove the option of firing them separately. You know pilots, real or simulated... they all have  'styles' and preferences, and in some issues it doesn't matter telling them to do this or that if they think otherwise would be better. So to prevent them from firing mgs separate from cannons, just because they  'think' it's more efficient when it isn't, the choice was simply removed. 

 

But that's just me speculating. 

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1 hour ago, 56RAF_Roblex said:

Up until recently I had MGs on the trigger and Cannons on a button on the throttle.     The theory was that I would use the Mgs for most shots, including, long shots and ones I was not sure about, then use the less numerous cannons when I was unlikely to miss.      What actually happened is that even after six months with that set up I kept missing kills because I forgot to fire the cannons with the MGs when I had my target nicely in my sights.    Last week I swapped to having *all* guns on the trigger and the throttle button just for MGs (for low-odds shots and long shots when it would be a waste of cannon shells)

 

IIRC the Japanese put their triggers on the throttle as well...not sure I could ever rewire my brain to do that after all this time 🤓

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Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, danielprates said:

That could be the RL reason why in the fw190 all guns are fired by the same button. Maybe the designers just had statistics that proved beyond any doubt that using all guns all the time increases kill ratio, so they decided to altogether remove the option of firing them separately. You know pilots, real or simulated... they all have  'styles' and preferences, and in some issues it doesn't matter telling them to do this or that if they think otherwise would be better. So to prevent them from firing mgs separate from cannons, just because they  'think' it's more efficient when it isn't, the choice was simply removed. 

 

But that's just me speculating. 

Nope - FW190A1 had 4 Mg 17 in cowling and wingroots on the trigger, 2 MGFF in the outer wings on the cannon button. So same logic as on the Emil.

 

When one pair of MG 17 was replaced  the guns were simply not rewired.

 

That is why in the A8  you fire the inner MG 151 together with the Mg 131 and the outer MG 151 sperately.

Edited by Eisenfaustus

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Eisenfaustus said:

Nope - FW190A1 had 4 Mg 17 in cowling and wingroots on the trigger, 2 MGFF in the outer wings on the cannon button. So same logic as on the Emil.

 

When one pair of MG 17 was replaced  the guns were simply not rewired.

 

That is why in the A8  you fire the inner MG 151 together with the Mg 131 and the outer MG 151 sperately.

 

IIRC the Dora and other versions were rigged in such a way that you could only fire them all together.

 

EDIT: in fact we were just discussing this a few days ago. It's the same for the f2190 F:

 

 

 

 

Edited by danielprates

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I used to fly the Zero a lot in IL2'46 so mapped my cannons to the throttle (X52) button next to the slider. I've had it that way ever since. I like it since when I fire the cannons I dont move the joystick at all, makes for more accurate shooting for myself.

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Posted (edited)

I have mg's on the trigger and cannons on top of the stick as in the KG sticks. Never found it messed with aim much, if at all. Interesting thought though, I almost want to try it on one button. I like to have most of my controls setup as realistically as possible which has stopped me from doing this so far. 

Edited by SCG_Wulfe
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2 hours ago, danielprates said:

 

IIRC the Dora and other versions were rigged in such a way that you could only fire them all together.

 

EDIT: in fact we were just discussing this a few days ago. It's the same for the f2190 F:

 

 

 

Yes exactly - when you remove the outer wing guns you lose weapon group two and only one remains.

 

It's the same with every FW190 in game: 4 centre guns first group, 2 outer guns second group. No outer guns no second group.

 

All legacy to the first 190 in service having it's mgs seperated from it's cannon...

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24 minutes ago, Eisenfaustus said:

 

Yes exactly - when you remove the outer wing guns you lose weapon group two and only one remains.

 

It's the same with every FW190 in game: 4 centre guns first group, 2 outer guns second group. No outer guns no second group.

 

All legacy to the first 190 in service having it's mgs seperated from it's cannon...

 

Got it.

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Posted (edited)

Curious the combat reasoning behind what's below. The original scheme seems "inner vs outer weapons." Which became the norm for the Focke Wulf. The revised seems to be about something else. I assume it's ammo conservation. Maybe even the relatively different drop rates of the projectiles? 

On the F2 for example those 60 shells would go QUICK attached to an MG that might have to occasionally take out softer targets on its own.
Seems they always try to keep the biggest boy on the top button, B1.
For the 109 g6:

 

Quote

 

When the Rüstsatz R6 was installed, it was originally planned to fire the MK 108 and MG 131s via the A-button and the wing mounted MG 151 cannons via the B1-button. However, a later added note in the manual stated that based on combat experience, the MK 108 should be fired via the B1-button and the wing mounted MG 151s together with the fuselage mounted MG 131s via the A-button: 
 
Original scheme: Bf 109 G-6 with Rüstsatz R6 (two wing-mounted MG 151 cannons):
A-Knopf: 2x MG 131 (fuselage mounted) and 1x MK 108 (engine mounted)
B1-Knopf: 2x MG 151 (in wing pods)
B2-Knopf: drop ordnance
 
Revised scheme: Bf 109 G-6 with Rüstsatz R6 (two wing-mounted MG 151 cannons):
A-Knopf: 2x MG 131 (fuselage mounted) and 2x MG 151 (in wing pods)
B1-Knopf: 1x MK 108 (engine mounted)
B2-Knopf: drop ordnance

SOURCES:
L. Dv. T. 2109 G-6/U4/Wa. "Bf 109 G-6/U4. Schusswaffenanlage. Bedienungsvorschrift/Wa. (Stand Juli 1943) Ausgabe August 1943."

 

 

on the other hand, WITHOUT the 108, they do what seems to be an inner outer thing.

Interesting they don't keep all the cannons on the B button.

 

Quote

 

Bf 109 G-6 without Rüstsatz R6 (two wing-mounted MG 151 cannons):
A-Knopf: 2x MG 131 (fuselage mounted)
B1-Knopf: 1x MG 151 (engine mounted)
B2-Knopf: drop ordnance 
 
Bf 109 G-6 with Rüstsatz R6 (two wing-mounted MG 151 cannons):
A-Knopf: 2x MG 131 (fuselage mounted) and 1x MG 151 (engine mounted)
B1-Knopf: 2x MG 151 (in wing pods)
B2-Knopf: drop ordnance

SOURCES:
L. Dv. T. 2109 G-5 und G-6/Wa "Bf 109 G-5 und G-6. Schusswaffenanlage. Bedienungsvorschrift/Wa. (Stand März 1943) Ausgabe April 1943." 

 

 

 

 

 

RE: steadiness: When you think about it, a top of the stick trigger is actually better, since force is downwards parallel to the axis instead of shearing against it, minimizing jerking during delicate maneuvers. It’s really just having to use two triggers at once that’s going to take some muscle retraining.

As others have said, zero-style throttle triggers are probably best of all.

Edited by von_Michelstamm

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On my warthog I use trigger as mgs and the CMS thumb button as cannons...  nice way to save ammo if they aren’t connected together 

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On 5/6/2019 at 4:16 PM, von_Michelstamm said:

RE: steadiness: When you think about it, a top of the stick trigger is actually better, since force is downwards parallel to the axis instead of shearing against it, minimizing jerking during delicate maneuvers. It’s really just having to use two triggers at once that’s going to take some muscle retraining.

As others have said, zero-style throttle triggers are probably best of all.

 

I wonder if that was the reasoning for the Zero having throttle triggers. I always thought that was an interesting design choice.

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On 5/6/2019 at 5:16 PM, von_Michelstamm said:

 

As others have said, zero-style throttle triggers are probably best of all.

 

True...unfortunately I am just a simple primate and after doing it one way for so long I think I would be screwed if I tried to switch. 🙊

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Noooo. Throttle triggers are all wrong. Point and shoot with one hand! Or so my old maiden aunt used to tell me. 

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I have this the other way round, main trigger is all guns, top button is machine guns only. this way if it's a deflection shot i'm not sure of or a long range i can use the MG's to range. if it's close and i'm sure of the shot i can just pull the trigger and not worry.

Or if i'm in say a 109F4 i can just pull the trigger all the live long day and not worry too much, it's mostly allied planes that have major ammo issues (with the exception of the p40)

 

 

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On 5/6/2019 at 11:16 PM, von_Michelstamm said:
Original scheme: Bf 109 G-6 with Rüstsatz R6 (two wing-mounted MG 151 cannons):
A-Knopf: 2x MG 131 (fuselage mounted) and 1x MK 108 (engine mounted)
B1-Knopf: 2x MG 151 (in wing pods)

 

On 5/6/2019 at 11:16 PM, von_Michelstamm said:
Bf 109 G-6 with Rüstsatz R6 (two wing-mounted MG 151 cannons):
A-Knopf: 2x MG 131 (fuselage mounted) and 1x MG 151 (engine mounted)
B1-Knopf: 2x MG 151 (in wing pods)

For both the same logic as for the FW190, inner guns for shooting at fighters, outer guns additionally to the inner guns for shooting at bombers or heavy ground attack aircrafts.

On 5/6/2019 at 11:16 PM, von_Michelstamm said:
Revised scheme: Bf 109 G-6 with Rüstsatz R6 (two wing-mounted MG 151 cannons):
A-Knopf: 2x MG 131 (fuselage mounted) and 2x MG 151 (in wing pods)
B1-Knopf: 1x MK 108 (engine mounted)

My guess is, the trajectory of the MK108 was just too different, to use it with another weapons, it was more for very short range.

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I have kg12  grip with VKB Gladiator Pro Mk.2 and I set the pinky button as a modifier.

I have a primary weapon group on a Main (forward) trigger and a secondary group on Top button.

Additionally:

Pinky + Main = fires all weapons

Pinky + Top = fires rockets or drops bombs (because so far I don't fly planes which can carry both)

Also: I don't like when machine guns and cannons fire simultaneously on primary group (like FW190), so I removed both 131s and outboard cannons from my FW190A-8. 

Soon after I surprisingly found out that my gunnery drastically improved and I was able to make precise potshots, maybe because there was less dispersion and a cleaner view of shells' trajectory and impact.

 

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On 5/5/2019 at 11:59 PM, von_Michelstamm said:

boy oh boy does it make gunnery hard. It’s really tough not to jerk the stick when trying to press two buttons at the same time. Guess it takes practice.

 

Yes is matter of practice, since Warbirds 2.7x I use to set cannons in left "shoulder" button of CH CombaStick and rarely fire MG+Cannon simultaneous.

 

IRL double stage trigger was create with other purpose, e.g. in P-51 Mustang the first stage start camera.

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On 5/5/2019 at 10:59 PM, von_Michelstamm said:

Anyone else do this? Im a slave to realism

 

The next time you get snipped by an AI gunner immediately log off and throw yourself off a bridge! :rofl:

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Posted (edited)
On 5/6/2019 at 3:59 AM, von_Michelstamm said:

Anyone else do this? Im a slave to realism so I’ve set up my kg12  with mgs on trigger and cannons on the top button.

boy oh boy does it make gunnery hard. It’s really tough not to jerk the stick when trying to press two buttons at the same time. Guess it takes practice.

my nightmare now is a bogey flying almost dead center and me trying to get the crosshairs on him and fire before he moves. Nothing more humiliating than jerking away from an easy shot.

I do the same. I try to copy the same positions. And yea, sometimes it feels unintuitive, but it doesn`t take long to get used to.

Edited by seafireliv

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These are my VKB stick settings, i think they're a faithful adaptation of how the real KG12, etc. worked:


A (trigger) KNOPF:

IRL: machine guns

VKB: same

 

B1 (top) KNOPF:
IRL: Cannons. If the pilot wanted to fire rockets, he would have to flip a switch elsewhere in the cockpit to make this button fire rockets, and then switch it back to return to cannons.
VKB: I use the "mode" button on the base of my gladiator to switch to "rocket" mode, and back. 


B2 (side) KNOPF:

IRL: Bombs. it wasn't a hatswitch, it was a single button.
VKB: bombs, but the extra hat buttons control bomb and rocket modes (firing in pairs or singular or which bombs to drop first). There's a perfect free button here (in gray) to 'fire rockets' as well, but that isn't technically correct.

 

Pinky KNOPF:

IRL: Push to Talk
VKB: I used the vkbconfig software to make this function as BOTH a shift key (which is what it normally does) AND as a joystick button. When pressed, it transmits to teamspeak (for playing multiplayer). It simultaneously shifts the B2 knopf into a set of squadron radio commands (for single player).
 


 

Screen Shot 2019-05-23 at 10.45.09 AM.png

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