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Sheriff88

Landing Lights =Trying to Surrender ??

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Occasionally I see damaged enemy aircraft nearby turn on landing lights and lower gear. Are they ready to land or are they surrendering?

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It's an old sim pilot thing.  The are signalling they are, for what ever reason, out of the fight and are pleading for mercy.

 

Shoot them down.  It's the only way to be sure.

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If its just lights I suggest you stay on them. Lights are often used to display one's location to a wingman that might be in the area. If their lights are flashing, quickly checking your 6 is probably a good idea. If they lower gear and flaps as well, it is highly likely that they are attempting to belly in and avoid death. Thats perfectly up to you, if they seem damaged enough that there's no way they can get back to their airfield, I'll typically leave them alone. Others may not be so kind. 

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18 minutes ago, BlitzPig_EL said:

  It's the only way to be sure.

Ripley, is that you????

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AI or other players online. AFAIK turning on you lights and lowering gear is in fact a sign of surrender. Don’t know if that was done in WWII though and probably not on the Eastern Front 😬

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15 minutes ago, Shallot_Samurai said:

If its just lights I suggest you stay on them. Lights are often used to display one's location to a wingman that might be in the area. If their lights are flashing, quickly checking your 6 is probably a good idea. If they lower gear and flaps as well, it is highly likely that they are attempting to belly in and avoid death. Thats perfectly up to you, if they seem damaged enough that there's no way they can get back to their airfield, I'll typically leave them alone. Others may not be so kind. 

 

Definitely this, blinking lights (away from the airfield) or flare spam is the tactic used to say "Hey look here!! This is where I'm being shot!!" in order to coordinate with their team in quickly assisting them. Either let them go if damaged enough or take them out as only you can decide that choice. Personally, if I see the plane damaged enough I will let it go in order to maintain my own energy advantage and battlefield situational awareness. The black smoking, fuel leaking, and slow flying plane on the deck is no longer a threat. But his friends up high are definitely out for vengeance in seeking you out. 

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Meh.   People continue to shoot at me even when I am doing 100kph with a dead engine getting slower while at 3 metres altitude getting lower.   It's war and I just accept that it is up to me to avoid their bullets long enough to get down and despawn (or just pray they miss 🙂 )     I am sure it was the same in real life ie sometimes your enemy flew past and left you to ditch and sometimes they tried to make sure you did not survive.

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In the old IL2, we only displayed lights on take off until we were formed up, then it was lights off.

If anyone was stupid enough to display lights at any other time they were asking to get shot down.

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2 hours ago, Sheriff88 said:

Occasionally I see damaged enemy aircraft nearby turn on landing lights and lower gear. Are they ready to land or are they surrendering?

 

Gear - maybe a mistake, so take the kill but check your "6" first.

 

Just pulled that today in Combat Box:

 

Backstory: I was in a Fw 190D-9 out running a Spit IXe (...yes after a series of bad decisions) and saw 2 Fw 190A-8 ground pounding and headed in their direction. Thinking the spit was going to break for the easier targets, it didn't. That was perfect because not only could I outrun the spit, I knew the pilot was target fixated on me :)

 

I simply turned on my navigation lights on and fired a few rounds to get nearby Fw 190s attention. Needless to say they were on spit like flies on turd, 5 - 10 secs later, the spit was spiraling towards the ground, missing a wing!

Edited by JG7_X-Man
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I always like going to the the closest airport and watching the endless line of surrendering airplanes coming in...

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They could be up to anything doing that. Maybe surrendering (which is kinda weird, are they going to land on our field and stop playing?). Maybe they`re hoping to catch a quick breather so their m8s can catch up, or maybe waiting until it`s clear and can come back and shoot YOU down later.

 

Also why not just baile? They`re saving an aircraft? For us?

 

I say if they haven`t bailed- finish `em.

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I can understand the lights, you want to show your position to wingman/ friendly forces

but why landing gear?

much better to belly land, last thing you really need is to add drag

Edited by Jorge_S

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23 minutes ago, Jorge_S said:

I can understand the lights, you want to show your position to wingman/ friendly forces

but why landing gear?

much better to belly land, last thing you really need is to add drag

Theres a good iflycentral video on it.  I use to exclusively belly land when damaged but gear down has its perks.

 

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In old IL-2 we used to occasionally light up, pop off some mg tracers, or turn on the tip smoke to chum for fighters.

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Am I the only one bothered by people putting their landing lights on?  I find it abuse and very unsimulator like, just shoot some flares..

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1 minute ago, =FSB=Man-Yac said:

Am I the only one bothered by people putting their landing lights on?  I find it abuse and very unsimulator like, just shoot some flares..

 

The way I look at it,  if you fire a flare in the circuit most people on the ground won't see it and those that do will soon lose track of where you are, assuming they were even spawned when you fired the flare.    If you turn on Nav or Landing lights then someone about to taxi onto the runway or turning finals without seeing you will be more likely to notice you and avoid a crash.

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2 minutes ago, 56RAF_Roblex said:

 

The way I look at it,  if you fire a flare in the circuit most people on the ground won't see it and those that do will soon lose track of where you are, assuming they were even spawned when you fired the flare.    If you turn on Nav or Landing lights then someone about to taxi onto the runway or turning finals without seeing you will be more likely to notice you and avoid a crash.

I meant people who put nav lights when they have a 6, I use them myself on take off and landing. People dont check for planes landing as it is so better put some lights.

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14 hours ago, SharpeXB said:

AI or other players online. AFAIK turning on you lights and lowering gear is in fact a sign of surrender. Don’t know if that was done in WWII though and probably not on the Eastern Front 😬

 

I remember reading an account of a Polish pilot flying for the Americans who dropped his gear over a German airfield and the AA guns stopped shooting, thinking he was gesturing to surrender. As I recall, the pilot knew that Polish POWs were not treated humanely by the Germans, so he used that opportunity to shoot up one of the anti-air guns and sped off again. Wish I could remember the fella's name

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7 hours ago, =621=Samikatz said:

I remember reading an account of a Polish pilot flying for the Americans who dropped his gear over a German airfield and the AA guns stopped shooting, thinking he was gesturing to surrender. As I recall, the pilot knew that Polish POWs were not treated humanely by the Germans, so he used that opportunity to shoot up one of the anti-air guns and sped off again. Wish I could remember the fella's name

And thanks to him next one who would want to surrender will get shot down.

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I hate people using nav lights to call their friends, but it's my point of view. 

 

Fact is: if you put nav lights on, you have as more chances to attract friends than ennemies. So that's useless. End of the story. :bye:

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On 5/1/2019 at 3:26 PM, SharpeXB said:

AI or other players online. AFAIK turning on you lights and lowering gear is in fact a sign of surrender. Don’t know if that was done in WWII though and probably not on the Eastern Front 😬

Online its a def surrender move. Considering they wont really die and you want a kill screw that light them up unless theyre already engineless or on fire.

Yes flashing ligbts I do for people to regain visID on me online ESP without a headset.

In SP I dont think the comp understands that. Ive seen it its bizarre only thing I can think of is it tries to emergency land at a nearest field and SOP for ai landings is lights on.

From what Ive read IRL gear down was an aerial surrender.  I only heard of that with the West and bombers etc though

@faucon. YYes this is true - I only flash if Ive agreed with someone else and theyre doing the high cap for example.  If they lose me I flash.  Or Ill say if I punch any random letter Im being bounced and Ill flash my lights as we for a few seconds especially as Im still pretty lousy at dogfighting.  Has it attracted enemies? Idk.  I think the big target below us did though.  Has it saved me? Once. Other times no..

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The universally accepted method of surrender is to bail out of your aircraft. 

That was certainly the case in WWII, I think the business of light and gear maybe from modern laws of war, not sure.

the AI in DCS turns their lights on. 

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Interesting topic. Can’t speak what any AI’s intentions are in the sim but IRL this is from Log of the Liberators;

 

 

555118E5-FC73-4061-8C1C-512F91AA07B1.jpeg

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4 hours ago, SharpeXB said:

The universally accepted method of surrender is to bail out of your aircraft. 

That was certainly the case in WWII, I think the business of light and gear maybe from modern laws of war, not sure.

the AI in DCS turns their lights on. 

Idk. All the stories I ever heard were definitely WW2. The lowering the gear I guess is a definirive way to show surrender because you cant really signal anyone and youre making your plane slow by extending the gear.  Like the other guy posted above - most the stories I ever heard were usually straggler bombers who did it when some Germans showed up.

Obviously online surrendering makes more sense by belly landing or bailing out.  IRL idk - bailing out was dangerous in WW2 and though less dangerous now very stressful on the body.

I think itd be less likely entirely as a concept for jets because theyre inherently going faster and missiles are in the equation. A visual method to surrender is pointless when you rarely get close enough to see more than small outline at best.  In DCS even at sidewinder range Id be pressed to notice a Mig21s landing gear down and if I did I messed up by not shooting. I could see maybe as I was passing his plane on fire..

Not saying your wrong just my .02 cents

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Lately, I haven't seen 1 Axis player that doesn't instantly turn their lights on the moment a tracer flies past them or they see a Ally plane maneuvering for a shot.  It doesn't even matter if the hostile plane is nowhere close to being in a good position.  I'd say that if you fly Red, do not turn on your lights if you are in trouble.  It only makes it harder to ID who the Axis plane is.

If you fire flares, remember that there's a 1 in 4 chance that only a friend will see it.  The other 3 possibilities are that another enemy will see it - drawing more to you , no one will see it, or both friends and enemies will see it.  

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9 hours ago, ICDP said:

Rudel was a truly despicable human being.

And why is that?

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15 hours ago, ICDP said:

 

Rudel was a truly despicable human being.

 

I wonder whether an American or British commander forced to fly his squadron to a German base and surrender would have done it with good grace and made friends with his enemies.  I doubt it.       Rudel was not so much a 'despicable human being' as a fiercely patriotic Nazi.   Yes there is an argument for saying that is the same thing but we know little about what propaganda he was fed to make him believe the Nazis were in the right.   To put it in context,  imagine if the Allies had lost WW1 and Germany and Japan had between them seized the Texas Oilfields and Southern Coal producing areas and given them to Mexico then forced the US to pay crippling reparations for decades despite losing so much of their natural assets.  It is not inconceivable that someone who would otherwise get no support could stir up national sentiment and patriotism and get enough support to become President and then convince even more people that Right Wing fascism & hate of non-Americans is the only way to restore national pride and get back what was taken away by foreigners and intellectuals.

Edited by 56RAF_Roblex

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No reason to bring current day politics into the discussion really.

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On 5/1/2019 at 11:15 PM, Bremspropeller said:

I always like going to the the closest airport and watching the endless line of surrendering airplanes coming in...

 

Do you wear an anorak? :)

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3 hours ago, 56RAF_Roblex said:

  Rudel was not so much a 'despicable human being' as a fiercely patriotic Nazi.   Yes there is an argument for saying that is the same thing but we know little about what propaganda he was fed to make him believe the Nazis were in the right. 

 

Rudel is know to have belonged to neo-nazi groups after the war. At a time when he coudn't ignore the horror that engendered the 3rd Reich. This show that he totally assumed his position, this is why he is a truly despicable human.


 

 

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6 hours ago, 56RAF_Roblex said:

Rudel was not so much a 'despicable human being' as a fiercely patriotic Nazi.

 

No. You can’t be friends with Josef Mengele, help him escape justice, and not be a despicable Human being.

 

Mengele died a free man, and that’s partly Rudel’s fault.

 

And as Notclear said, Rudel belonged to post-war neo-Nazi groups, even being a leading politician in one.

Edited by Pb_Cybermat47
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Yeah I reslly respect his war time records but the mans vile.  And compared to Rall or Hartmann or Galland theres really nothing to like.. IMO when you see plenty of non fanatics who moved on and regretted that serving their country involved serving a despotic regime instead of forever pining away about it overseas with war criminals.

At the end of the day its hard for me to be super sympathetic - I know damned well from reading about them my entire life that if the Nazis were around today me being an American would already make me fall into an "enemy" category for them. So its hard to feel bad.  And no to me Nazis 1940s doesnt equal Germans now or even all Germans then.

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On 5/3/2019 at 6:09 PM, BornToBattle said:

Interesting topic. Can’t speak what any AI’s intentions are in the sim but IRL this is from Log of the Liberators;

 

 

555118E5-FC73-4061-8C1C-512F91AA07B1.jpeg

 

That sounds like one of those "The tale belongs to the victor" stories.  :blush:

Edited by JG7_X-Man

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8 hours ago, 56RAF_Roblex said:

To put it in context,  imagine if the Allies had lost WW1 and Germany and Japan had between them seized the Texas Oilfields and Southern Coal producing areas and given them to Mexico then forced the US to pay crippling reparations for decades despite losing so much of their natural assets.

I don't want to drag this further off topic, but Adam Tooze's The Deluge is a great read that helps to lay this old interpretation to rest. The same author's Wages of Destruction is a great sequel. I recommend anyone interested in the economic aspects of the war read them both.

 

On topic: flashing landing lights can be a good way to send a message. For example, when an ally is saddling up behind you because they think you're an enemy...

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On 5/2/2019 at 4:38 AM, Sheriff88 said:

Occasionally I see damaged enemy aircraft nearby turn on landing lights and lower gear. Are they ready to land or are they surrendering?



In the old IL2 series, if you damaged a plane and it landed you were still given credit for the victory, provided that you survived long enough for them to make it back home to land AND HIT REFLY (some very sore loses would deliberately not hit refly to deny you the victory after crash landing, since you would "refly" before them it wouldn't register...)

So once the enemy was smoking badly etc and clearly out of the fight there was no need to finish them, and so the landing lights were a way of saying you won (not surrendering as such, but acknowledging that you had beaten them / them saying that they are out of the fight).

It was a chivalrous thing, where the focus was on the victory, not the kill.

Yes some can correctly argue that while this did to a degree happen in real life, it was the exception not the rule,

And if they spare the enemy a "team mate" may come along and kill steal etc.

But the counter argument is that this is a game/ simulation etc, so either way the enemy will always live to fight another day (and possibly shoot you or your friends down/ bomb them to oblivion),

And "team mates" will always kill steal / shoulder shoot.

Me personally I would rather an enemy (who was honest) used landing lights so that I don't waste my time, energy state, and ammunition.

But each to their own :fly:

 

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