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Southernbear

The Me 262 A1a Swallow and A2a Sturmvogel

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This is my first post on the forum and I'd like to say I've been loving the game and it's community from what I've read here.

 

I know there is already (and still ongoing thread about the 262 coming to IL-2 Great Battles 'BoB DLC' next month but I'd like to write up a collected and concise report of what we should expect to see from our new Jet fighter.

 

Now unfortunately I can't attach a word file to this but I have combined a few sources including wiki (for general info) about the over all history and short info about every single 262 variant that was actually built prototype or otherwise with a focus on the A1a, A2a and B1a/U1 as the main 3 versions. If this thread gets enough attention I will screen cap my document and add it to a post below.

 

Now for IL-2, in IL-2 Great Battles we are getting both the A1a Swallow and also the lesser known A2a Sturmvogel 'Stormbird'. I know this due to the A1a being the obivous choice and A1as are seen on some of the loading screens (particularly depicted going head to head with P-47s). The A1a in a good addition for those skilled pilots but I doubt its gonna be the one that most people are looking forward to. I assume the 262 will be like the FW 190 A8 where you can also get the 190 F8 and G8 out of the same plane by giving it serious modifications to turn it into the A2a variant.

 

The red circle shows 2 of the 4 regular Mk 108s sealed up which is iconic to A2a versions of 262 as 2 guns were removed to allow for a larger bomb load.

 

While the A1a could also carry bombs the A2a version is the dedicated ground attack plane. maximum kilogram weight is 2 500kg bombs slung under the nose on hard points which theoretically meant it could also carry 1, 1000Kg bomb but the size of the bomb and where the nose wheel is prevents this.

 

The Jumo 004 Axial Compressor engine:

While I won't be totally surprised if this doesn't happen and won't care about much since in IL-2 1946 it was still very manageable it is still worth noting that I hope the engines don't explode or catch fire like they did in 46'. To all accounts I have manage to fine the main issue was rather engine flame outs due to the disrupted airflow in the combustion chamber causing the engine to flame out. While I know it will be a lot easier to generalizes in the code of the game quick throttle moments rarely resulted in throwing a compressor blade or an engine fire. 

 

Balance: 

Unlike what many think as I've seen on the other 262 thread I'd thought I'd address the balance of this plane directly. Many are saying that the allies should get a YP-80 or a meteor to go head to head with the 262 but ironically considering how IL2 operates this would only make it harder to fight. Once the plane is up it will be difficult to shoot down even if the German pilot doesn't want a fight. However what I suggest to Russian/Allied pilots is do what they did in real life and run Rat Run missions. The 262's take off and landing is a lengthy possess and its exactly what the Tempest V was used for as well as you could use P38s or P51s for this role as well. In a server like Wings of Liberty these planes will be in short supply anyway so try to get them while they are getting off and getting back down onto the ground and you shouldn't have an issue. 

 

Hope to see you all in the skies soon!

 

I'm also gonna post all the screenshots we have seen so far:

Me 262 A2a.PNG

1.jpg

2.jpg

3.jpg

4.jpg

5.jpg

6.jpg

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I didn’t notice the removed guns in the screenshots, good catch.

 

TBH I’m actually looking forward to the A-2a the most. I love the idea of getting 1000kg on a target, then getting out in the blink of an eye.

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3 minutes ago, Pb_Cybermat47 said:

I didn’t notice the removed guns in the screenshots, good catch.

 

TBH I’m actually looking forward to the A-2a the most. I love the idea of getting 1000kg on a target, then getting out in the blink of an eye.

Yeah I got pretty hyped when I saw it...main reason I made the post 

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3 hours ago, Southernbear said:

...

Balance: 

Unlike what many think as I've seen on the other 262 thread I'd thought I'd address the balance of this plane directly. Many are saying that the allies should get a YP-80 or a meteor to go head to head with the 262 but ironically considering how IL2 operates this would only make it harder to fight. Once the plane is up it will be difficult to shoot down even if the German pilot doesn't want a fight. However what I suggest to Russian/Allied pilots is do what they did in real life and run Rat Run missions. The 262's take off and landing is a lengthy possess and its exactly what the Tempest V was used for as well as you could use P38s or P51s for this role as well. In a server like Wings of Liberty these planes will be in short supply anyway so try to get them while they are getting off and getting back down onto the ground and you shouldn't have an issue. 

...

 

 

So your teling me that when axis side has number advantage most of the time, allieds will be catching 262s on take of and landings :) i hope you gona try that in P-47 vs d9s k4s and 262s when its 30vs 50 axis.

 

what you have now is axis bombers bombing allied spawn bases with no resistance, as red players need to be punished for flying uber red airplanes so bombing them on spawn and vulching them is justified, you dont see that behavior from allied bombers only axis.

 

what will happend when 262 gets in game online is thouse guys will switch their ju88s with 262s and be more effective in vulching allied players that just spawn they aint gona go bomb objectives they gona just be more effective vulchers as flak in game even on ace is uneffective, and then more allied players quit after they get bomb in their head when they spawn... catching 262s on take of and landings is historical , in mp when you dont have historical numbers advantages or limitations on axis equipments that will just be fantasy for forum, not reality in MP in this game.

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27 minutes ago, 77.CountZero said:

 

So your teling me that when axis side has number advantage most of the time, allieds will be catching 262s on take of and landings :) i hope you gona try that in P-47 vs d9s k4s and 262s when its 30vs 50 axis.

 

what you have now is axis bombers bombing allied spawn bases with no resistance, as red players need to be punished for flying uber red airplanes so bombing them on spawn and vulching them is justified, you dont see that behavior from allied bombers only axis.

 

what will happend when 262 gets in game online is thouse guys will switch their ju88s with 262s and be more effective in vulching allied players that just spawn they aint gona go bomb objectives they gona just be more effective vulchers as flak in game even on ace is uneffective, and then more allied players quit after they get bomb in their head when they spawn... catching 262s on take of and landings is historical , in mp when you dont have historical numbers advantages or limitations on axis equipments that will just be fantasy for forum, not reality in MP in this game.

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, 77.CountZero said:

 

So your teling me that when axis side has number advantage most of the time, allieds will be catching 262s on take of and landings :) i hope you gona try that in P-47 vs d9s k4s and 262s when its 30vs 50 axis.

 

what you have now is axis bombers bombing allied spawn bases with no resistance, as red players need to be punished for flying uber red airplanes so bombing them on spawn and vulching them is justified, you dont see that behavior from allied bombers only axis.

 

what will happend when 262 gets in game online is thouse guys will switch their ju88s with 262s and be more effective in vulching allied players that just spawn they aint gona go bomb objectives they gona just be more effective vulchers as flak in game even on ace is uneffective, and then more allied players quit after they get bomb in their head when they spawn... catching 262s on take of and landings is historical , in mp when you dont have historical numbers advantages or limitations on axis equipments that will just be fantasy for forum, not reality in MP in this game.

 

This, pretty much, though hopefully not quite so dramatic.

 

The gist of it however is that the Me262 was not a game changer for the LW because the allies had pretty much attained air superiority by the time the 262s could show up in any meaningful numbers, allowing the allies to roam the skies freely, and even more importantly simply absorb the losses they took from it. In a setting where the allies do not have full air superiority, the superior LW hardware will have a major impact. 

 

The irony, of course, is the very quest for maximum performance and super weapons (As it were) was spurred specifically by this superiority on the side of the allies, who themselves did not suffer such a pressure. The Spit IX, for example, is thouroughly outclassed by the later LW hardware, but remained the main Spit in operation because there wasn't really a need to pump out the best of the best, not when you could outproduce the enemies 10 to 1 AND fielded much higher quality pilots. 

 

In short, BoX will never replicate the dynamics of the late air war, because all these were the byproduct of the Allies thoroughly dominating the skies, something which obviously we wouldn't want to be replicated (it simply wouldn't be fun for the blue pilots to be constantly massively outnumbered, with limited fuel, and of course lack of pilot skills can't be replicated at all). he end result is generally speaking the LW will have an edge that it never had in RL, because the logistics of the late war can't be replicated. The only proper counter to that will be to include the things the allies DID have to redress the balance but never really pushed very hard because it never was under any pressure to redress any urgent setback in the air (Spit XIV, 150 octane, and so on.)

Edited by 71st_AH_Yankee_
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27 minutes ago, 71st_AH_Yankee_ said:

The only proper counter to that will be to include the things the allies DID have to redress the balance but never really pushed very hard because it never was under any pressure to redress any urgent setback in the air (Spit XIV, 150 octane, and so on.)

...and to give the Allies 10x the number of planes per mission.

 

Of course, the Lufties would hate that. As much as they hated it back then.

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7 minutes ago, ZachariasX said:

...and to give the Allies 10x the number of planes per mission.

 

Of course, the Lufties would hate that. As much as they hated it back then.

Where at some point you need to realize that this is a game. If there is a difference in numbers of planes, why would i bother even taking off? There will be absolutely no reason to sit in a server lobby having no planes left cuz all get shot up fast (yes i‘m also referring to all the erich hartmann kill stealing mentality of some axis pilots). Then you fly empty maps with red against AAA. You‘ll get bored as much as we as axis will get bored and just quit.

how to kill server population 101.

think about it.

There is no way MP of this game will ever be „historically accurate“ other than the planesets on the server.

 

just fly ang enjoy it. Enjoy competing with other pilots who give u the opportunity to go up against and test your skill.

after all, that‘s why we play this game.

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5 hours ago, Southernbear said:

While the A1a could also carry bombs the A2a version is the dedicated ground attack plane. maximum kilogram weight is 2 500kg bombs slung under the nose on hard points which theoretically meant it could also carry 1, 1000Kg bomb but the size of the bomb and where the nose wheel is prevents this.

 

Where did you get information about 1000 kg bombload? As i havent seen such. (even techdocs states about 500kg max load).

 

PS: btw - some combat units had two upper canons installed back (with removal of some armor) - and we well have this feature as well ;)

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43 minutes ago, SteelFalcon said:

Where at some point you need to realize that this is a game. If there is a difference in numbers of planes, why would i bother even taking off?

You a good reason why the British produced lots of Spit Mk.IX and did not always use 150 octane fuel for the sake of eased maintenance. And you see what does happen if you supplied one side with unicorns as a general ride. A pointless exercise  (essentially, it was) gets its tables turned.

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39 minutes ago, SteelFalcon said:

 ... (yes i‘m also referring to all the erich hartmann kill stealing mentality of some axis pilots).

 

Can we please stop referring to Erich Hartmann this way?  He was a real person.

 

On the 262 in MP,   if the 262 is unbalanced then don't offer it on the server.  If you want to offer it on the server but still maintain some balance then give the allies more planes.  Maybe not 10-1 as it was in real life but something else that makes the experience fun.  It might take a little experimentation to get the balance right but it seems that the tools exist to do so.

 

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Thanks for this sum up. The 262 will be great and I can't wait to fly it.

 

The thing is that we play what we want to play and how we want it. If you are in a squad or using SP content there will be tons of Airfield attacks against 262. I can't wait to attack Remagen bridge with one 500 kg bomb.

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the 262 is good news all around :) nice summary on its variant! I will fly that mostly until the Arado 234 hits the road... Sky! 

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2 hours ago, =FB=VikS said:

 

Where did you get information about 1000 kg bombload? As i havent seen such. (even techdocs states about 500kg max load).

 

PS: btw - some combat units had two upper canons installed back (with removal of some armor) - and we well have this feature as well ;)

Good Evening VikS,

After a short search I have found 2 pages so far that mention this. One of  these here is in German:

https://me262.de/versionen/messerschmitt-me-262-a-2a-sturmvogel/
 

Quote

 

" Die Version Me 262 A-2a wurde als Jagdbomber verwendet und wurde dementsprechend modifiziert. Es war der Version Me 262 A-1a sehr ähnlich. Außer den beiden 503A-1 Bombenhalterungen unter den Tragflächen. Jede konnte eine 500 kg Bombe oder 2 x 250 kg Bomben transportieren." 

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"The version Me 262 A-2a was used as a fighter bomber and was modified accordingly. It was very similar to the version Me 262 A-1a. Except the two 503A-1 bomb holders under the wings. Each could carry one 500 kg bomb or 2 x 250 kg bombs."

 

 

And the The Aviation History Online Museum mentions it as well:

http://www.aviation-history.com/messerschmitt/me262.html
 

Quote


"To satisfy Hitler’s requirement for a super-speed bomber, The Me 262A-2a Sturmvogel (Stormbird) was built with bomb pylons capable of carrying either two 250 kg or 5000 kg bombs [sic] or one 1,000 kg bomb. Two upper Mk. 108 cannons were removed to make way for the bomb site. With bombs installed, this reduced the airspeed by 120 mph (193 km/h) bringing it within the speed of Allied piston-engine fighters until the bombs were dropped.There was even another version that towed a bomb on a wooden wing attached to a 20 ft. (6 m) pole underneath the fuselage, but this created porpoising of the aircraft and the idea was dropped as being too dangerous."

 

 

There is also a list with their sources on the end of that article. Hopefully it helps you

 

best regards,

Rico

 

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5 hours ago, 77.CountZero said:

what you have now is axis bombers bombing allied spawn bases with no resistance, as red players need to be punished for flying uber red airplanes so bombing them on spawn and vulching them is justified, you dont see that behavior from allied bombers only axis.

 

You did not see what Dr.Zebra can do in Pe2 ;)

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Big_Al_the_Allo said:

And the The Aviation History Online Museum mentions it as well:

http://www.aviation-history.com/messerschmitt/me262.html

     

The 2x SC250 and 1x SC500 loadouts are mentioned in the 1944 flight manual but not the 1x 1000kg. I have not seen a technical document stating that.

 

Books are not the most reliable sources for such details.

Edited by 6./ZG26_5tuka

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27 minutes ago, 6./ZG26_5tuka said:

The 2x SC250 and 1x SC500 loadouts are mentioned in the 1944 flight manual but not the 1x 1000kg. I have not seen a technical document stating that.

 

Books are not the most reliable sources for such details.

Just look at the CG.

 

4x MK108 are ~200 kg, 440 rounds are ~200 kg, totals 400 kg in the nose for standard load. If you leave 2 guns and less ammo you have ~250 kg budget for a bomb to keep CG where it should be. Adding 500 kg then is already really asking for it and I doubt the pilot was very happy with that. And it must cause an impressive nose up upon releasing that load.

 

Imagine where you‘d put the CG for an SC1000 on a 6.5 ton aircraft when attaching it on the nose. The German Wiki for the Me262 indeed talks about 1000 kg loads:

 

Die Aufnahme einer Bombenlast von 1000 kg vor der vorderen Schwerpunktlage verlangte den Verzicht auf zwei der vier Maschinenkanonen in der Rumpfnase sowie auf die Betankung der vorderen Kraftstoffbehälter. Der Pilot musste darüber hinaus erst mindestens 40 Minuten Kraftstoff „abfliegen“, um eine wurftaugliche Trimmlage herzustellen.

 

Not only you had to drop two cannons, you also couldn’t use the front fuel tanks. Additionally, you had to fly the remaining tanks almost empty to achieve a controllable configuration after the drop. This makes 1000 kg bomb load a very theoretical thing. But for online vulching on WoL it would be nice, sure. I mean, the return leg from vulching is a secondary issue anyway.

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While the absolute max load of 2x500kg was possible it was not used since the massive shift in weight distribution led to problems going as far as airframe damage. 2x250 or 1x500kg is what would be the usual loadout, according to everyone´s favourite source wikipedia :biggrin: and a few books that I dont have an can only see a few pages of via google.

image.png.d921fbc5cf0444719709a95d9c42659c.png

That´s the august 1944 manual people are quoting here btw.

image.png.1ea10eca607ceef16eebb73a3ec7912d.png

This is from the debrief of a german test pilot available here: http://zenoswarbirdvideos.com/Images/Me262/ME262PILOTDEBRIEF.pdf

 

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http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/showthread.php?t=50696&highlight=Me262

 

The upper two canons needed to be removed only in aircraft produced until sometimes late 1944. Later fighter bomber versions had all 4 canons plus the required bomb carriers and electrical equipment. As far as I remember (haven't access to my Messerschmitt documents right now), it was due to center of gravity and weight reasons. Later Me 262 had the additional fuel tank behind the cockpit after the landing gear had been strenghtened. With the additional fuel tank, the center of gravity was moved backwards again and all 4 canons could be installed.

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5 hours ago, PatrickAWlson said:

 

Can we please stop referring to Erich Hartmann this way?  He was a real person.

 

On the 262 in MP,   if the 262 is unbalanced then don't offer it on the server.  If you want to offer it on the server but still maintain some balance then give the allies more planes.  Maybe not 10-1 as it was in real life but something else that makes the experience fun.  It might take a little experimentation to get the balance right but it seems that the tools exist to do so.

 

Are you for real? The guy killed over 350 people. I think a little ribbing from people 75 years later on a game forum is okay...

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Posted (edited)

I mean when it comes to the main server (wings of liberty) you will probably be lucky to see more possibly even a flight worth of aircraft given the numbers already seen I'd say 262s would number in the 4-5 range It will be effective in the right hands but its something any other bomber could probably do more efficiently once on target.

 

As for the bombload I knew it could theoretically carry 1000kg worth of bombs but I didn't know that the 2 500Kg bombs were never fitted.

Edited by Southernbear

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18 minutes ago, StaB/Tomio_VR*** said:

No one for the 6 x MG151/20 loadout ?

or the 2xMk103 + 2xMk108 loadout ?

Why not go whole hog then,

iUEezvF.jpg

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2 hours ago, MiloMorai said:

Why not go whole hog then,

iUEezvF.jpg

if we want to go 50mm on planes i'd prefer the Me 410B-2/U4 atleast it saw operational use ;)

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Posted (edited)

That did see operational use once, but the cannon jammed. 

Edited by Tyberan
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Posted (edited)

Regarding balance:

 

If 1C sticks to available documentation, there's gonna be some dissapointment.

Yes, the Me-262 is really fast (though not as fast as many seem to think). That speed comes at prize.

Me-262 doesn't turn or roll. The acceleration is terrible, and the higher you go the worse it becomes. Since the acceleration is terrible, any kind of turn needs to be very slow and methodical, otherwise you'll get caught up to and killed. The manouverability is god awful, and the lack of roll rate is potentially the biggest hindrance since it makes gunnery near damn impossible if you're aiming for anything more nimble than a B-17. 

 

So essentially, what you're left with is a relatively good bomber killer, but a surprisingly dissapointing fighter. I'm rather certain that in MP enviroments the 262 will become nothing more than a nuissance, unless used as a hard to intercept bomber, where it might fare rather well.

Edited by 4./JG26_Onebad

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Beyond the bomber intercept role, I think it will do well at very strict "boom and zoom" tactics.  It should give new meaning to the old adage, "One pass and haul ass".  Personally I see it as a good high speed interdiction attack aircraft.  Come in at full chat, drop your bombs and run away screaming like a little school girl.

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1 hour ago, Tyberan said:

That did see operational use once, but the cannon jammed. 

no, there was one prototype build, Werknummer 111899, it was testflown and the did some shooting tests, that prototype was given to JG44 for field trials and failed during the first test under field conditions. There was never operational use to any significant degree.

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1 hour ago, 4./JG26_Onebad said:

Me-262 doesn't turn or roll.

 

Eric Brown rolled it at over 95 degrees per second at 400 mph. 262 had as good or better high speed roll rate as any airplane that is or will be modeled in Bodenplatte.

 

The leading edge slats (which were later used directly in F-86 development) help mightily in turns at high speeds as well.

 

The 262 had the highest useful mach number of any plane in the sim - it will be able to perform normal maneuvers at speeds where other aircraft have already entered compressibility.

 

 

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1 hour ago, 4./JG26_Onebad said:

Regarding balance:

 

If 1C sticks to available documentation, there's gonna be some dissapointment.

Yes, the Me-262 is really fast (though not as fast as many seem to think). That speed comes at prize.

Me-262 doesn't turn or roll. The acceleration is terrible, and the higher you go the worse it becomes. Since the acceleration is terrible, any kind of turn needs to be very slow and methodical, otherwise you'll get caught up to and killed. The manouverability is god awful, and the lack of roll rate is potentially the biggest hindrance since it makes gunnery near damn impossible if you're aiming for anything more nimble than a B-17. 

 

So essentially, what you're left with is a relatively good bomber killer, but a surprisingly dissapointing fighter. I'm rather certain that in MP enviroments the 262 will become nothing more than a nuissance, unless used as a hard to intercept bomber, where it might fare rather well.

I clearly remember the 262’s introduction in the now aged original IL-2. It was quite fun when originally flown ( except it often blew engines...) but its uniqueness soon wore off when one tried to use it in fighter vs. fighter combat. I suggest anyone who cares to go back & try it again.It will give proof to the above comments.

 It did work well enough on the massed bomber formations available in the old IL-2 but rapid closing speeds made aiming & firing in time a bit of a chore and I found that attacking from target’s b-17 formation 6:00 o’clock just as dangerous as it was in any other fighter would.Bailing out of a 262 with an engine fire was so common place that I eventually gave it up & went back to 109’s & 190’s.

BTW: I had much better luck & more fun with the Me-163 Komet when attacking B-17’s!!!

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6 hours ago, MiloMorai said:

Why not go whole hog then,

iUEezvF.jpg

After you're out of ammo, you can keep fighting by ramming enemies!

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On 4/25/2019 at 3:42 PM, 77.CountZero said:

what will happend when 262 gets in game online is thouse guys will switch their ju88s with 262s and be more effective in vulching allied players that just spawn they aint gona go bomb objectives they gona just be more effective vulchers as flak in game even on ace is uneffective,

 

Not sure if we're playing the same game.

Attacking an airfield with several @ce l@ser fl@k units is like attacking the Death Star.

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Posted (edited)
On 4/25/2019 at 11:31 AM, =FB=VikS said:

 

Where did you get information about 1000 kg bombload? As i havent seen such. (even techdocs states about 500kg max load).

 

PS: btw - some combat units had two upper canons installed back (with removal of some armor) - and we well have this feature as well ;)

 

Not a serious suggestion... but there are references for the recon variant with only one Mk-108!

 

Would require 3d model changes and I'm probably the only one who would be excited by a further reduction in armament 😄

Me-262Anose.JPG

Edited by Avimimus

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4 hours ago, Tyberan said:

That did see operational use once, but the cannon jammed. 

Actually Maj. Wilhelm Herget flew 2 operational missions on April 16 1945, with the MK214 jamming both times.

 

MTT test pilot Karl Baur made 19 flights firing 47 rounds on the ground and 81 in the air.

 

There was a 2cd a/c, WNr 170083, but was captured before flown.

 

As the nose landing gear had to rotate on retraction, modelling changes would have to be made.

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Posted (edited)

The 1000KG bombload was tested with some Me 262's. Not on operational missions as far as I read.

I have the following book and it mentions the 2nd V7 (W Nr 170 303) being used for different bombloads up to a 1000KG

and with the help of RATOG to keep take off runs somewhat "usefull".

Flown by testpilot Herlitzius. 700 km/h at 800 meters height was a bit "nerverecking"

 

 

Me 262 book 2.png

Me 262 book.png

Edited by Heliopause

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On 4/25/2019 at 8:31 AM, =FB=VikS said:

PS: btw - some combat units had two upper canons installed back (with removal of some armor) - and we well have this feature as well ;)

 

Glad to see that is going to be a feature. :good: 

 

To those wondering: in December 1944, KG 51 reported that some of their 262s had 4 cannons and some were fitted with only 2. Later in the month, higher command ordered that all planes were to have all 4 cannons fitted, along with some of the armor plate removed.

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Posted (edited)

Where are the armor plates located? just pilot/fuel tanks or also protecting the 30mm ammo boxes? (like in the Fw 190 wings)

Edited by -=PHX=-SuperEtendard

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