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the_dudeWG

Richthofen Red (opinions welcomed)

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Just now, Uffz-Prien said:


So if I was to calibrate my monitor so it saw a red as a green, then sampled a cherry in PS and saved and uploaded it to the web, somebody with a correctly calibrated monitor would see a green cherry?

What would happen is that you would export your „red“ (that looks green) to a green sRGB value. You would also see a green cherry on your color printer.

 

To understand the basic issue, you have to look at what it means for instance to display an 8 bit RGB pixel.

 

If I have the pixel defined as 256,0,0 then it tells me that it is „totally red“. The brightest red over 256 shades.

 

If my output device is also 8 bit RGB, then we have a match and The monitor would be told to display the brightest shade of red. So far so good.

 

The problem is now that if someone has a monitor showing brighter images, the red on my monitor is not the same as on the other one, even though it tells to display the exact same shade. The color picker however will NOT see that difference.

 

The difference appears then the monitor in fact can display more than 256 shades for each color. Then you have to make the decision on whether the value „256“ corresponds to, say, shade 1024 on a 10 bit panel. If it will be still defined as „all the red your monitor can show“ or if it in fact is less red than your monitor can show.

 

Example: RGB images can be more blue than CMYK images, as there are RGB values outside of CMYK values, hence crisp blue tones become dull in CMYK.

 

Color spaces are used to match the array of possible colors to each other among different output devices. Whether you like it or not, you are compelled to assign a color space to your naked color channel values to define them for display in somebody elses color space.

 

Defined color spaces are important as it is the only way to define a color among different output devices, be it different monitors or printers.

 

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For Skinning,  I don't try to match colors by eye. I use the color sample tool to establish the RGB levels, and then I will usually rely on visual perception for brightness or tone. This can only be done accurately by evaluating the skin in-game, since the BOS viewer lighting is too wonky. 

 

For this exercise, I'm mostly concerned with getting the RGB values right for Richthofen AND all previously created and future Jasta 11 aircraft. Nothing drives me crazier than different planes from the same squadron with mismatched colors. If we can get the colors historically accurate, that's great, but I'm sure it will always be open to debate whether it is correctly represented. What shouldn't be left open to debate would be consistently matched colors among common squadrons. I didn't receive much feedback (good or bad) when I submitted the MvR 152/17 skin, so I wondered if there were others who were just as disappointed as I was that it didn't follow the classic, signal red color we've always related to The Red Baron.  

 

I'm grateful for the feedback I've received on this post thus far. I'm not creating skins for my own amusement, so I'm always concerned with how the FC community views each creation. Even negative feedback is better than no feedback at all, so don't be afraid to voice your opinion. I'm very interested in the Krapplack Red that has been referenced as a historical basis for Alizarin crimson and reds in use in Germany at the time. I've been in contact with one of the suppliers who sell the MRP Richthofen's Red paint (which is a variety of the Krapplack red) and they will hopefully be able to give me the RGB value of that color. Many of the Alizarin crimson RGB values I've looked at so far seem a little too pink and don't really fit into any of the MvR samples we've been looking at. Thanks to everyone for helping me in this endeavor! S!

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I think you made the right choices as colors are concerned. I cannot comment really on the actual pattern, lacking in depth knowledge. HH mentioned above that different light makes a color appear differently. High up, light is far brighter making colors far more vibrant than down in the dark haze. I‘m not sure the sim can adjust scene lightning in such a way, hence there is always room for artistic liberties. I would make colors a tad lighter an intense to compensate for this. It would be a tad more signal red then. Downside is that down low, it might look too bright for the color it actually is.

 

I would always try to find color catalogues of the time to get a first reference. It is a good start if professionals translate a pigment into digital values. These values would be tints used among all planes and should match unless they are painted in a thinner layer.

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Posted (edited)

Thanks, ZachariasX, but iby no means have I reached a conclusion yet. I've been able to rule out a few of the lighter crimsons by actually trying them on my 152/17 skin. The results weren't even worthy of discussion, but I have s better feeling about the Krapplack red since it is a little darker than the crimsons without looking brown or brick-reddish. I would like to post my results for review before closing up shop on this one. S!

Edited by the_dudeWG

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I would rule out azo dyes in general. This leaves basically only a smaller number of natural tints to choose from. The early azo colors (Teerfarben) had a strong tendency to bleach, very much unlike what we see on the images you posted.

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Very interesting indeed. They indeed seem to have used just the light blue dope. After that, the surface finish seemed as considered complete and on that they used regular paint.

 

Regular paint is then much easier to use, as it doesn‘t add tension to the canvas. As lacquer was obviously not used for the top paint layers, it then seems very likely that boiled linseed oil (Leinölfirnis) was used as base for the Krapplack tint. You use this on wood etc. It would better explain the severe darkening (more than nitrocellulose) of the paint.

 

So we have three layers for finish on the canvas. First the dope to seal and strengthen it, then the turquoise/blueish (if a blue tints substrate turned yellow we would get that greenish hue) as factory finish. Then the field mod with the red paint job.

 

Shifting the brown back to red would also reveal the underlying „turquoise“ oil paint color, as this one probably has an identical color shift. I would consider it likely that the oil colors share the same base.

 

That lacquer below seems to have altered much less in color.

 

They for sure put a lot of weight on that plane with all that paint. 

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I'm a little confused about the turquoise color. I always believed the theory that Fubar reposted that the light blue turned turquoise as a result of the yellowing caused by the lacquer. It seems odd that they would have lacquered this aircraft before painting it red. Did they then lacquer it a second time, causing the red to appear slightly more orange as seen it the larger image with the cross?!

 

Also, ZachariasX, I still don't quite understand how the severe darkening of the red occurs, and over how long of a period of time. Why did it happen in some areas, and not in others? S!

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The aircraft must be lacquered to make the canvas strong, rigid and resistant. You use this also to glue the canvas to the airframe/ribs. Once you did that, the aircraft is in principle airworthy.

 

You then apply the paint. How you add the paint is mainly dependent on how willing you are to sacrifice weight and if you need to proof the surface from other things like solvents that could attack the lacquer. You by all means want to make the airframe gasoline resistant. Hence other paint layers can assist in doing that. (Todays car paints are great!)

 

In case of the Dr.I, it seems we have a first light blue lacquer finish. Oil paint was then applied as second layer to make it look maybe like Voss‘ aircraft (minus the face).

 

Red oil paint is then applied as a third layer over the factory oil paint. I would expect both oil paint layers (turquoise and red) to shift the same in tone over the years. The boiled linseed oil turns yellow then brownish over the decades. (If both red color applied in the field and the factory paint are similar based oil paints.) The organic pigments used as tint should be more stable, hence the darkening instead of fading to a yellow tone.

 

I‘m assuming that both oil paints have the same base and if the original color tint is indeed Krapplack, when you then shift the colors on (as posted by @J5_Gamecock ) such that that the brownish red becomes Krapplack, you will also see what the original color of factory painted Dr.I‘s is. I think it is truly a great find posted by Gamecock.

 

I could never really believe that we have these turquoise aircraft. But taking out a lot of yellow should make it more blue, something that would make much more sense as base for camouflage than the clown color. But on vacation and have no tools at hand to play with the colors. You just have to try and see what you get.

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22 minutes ago, the_dudeWG said:

I'm a little confused about the turquoise color. I always believed the theory that Fubar reposted that the light blue turned turquoise as a result of the yellowing caused by the lacquer. It seems odd that they would have lacquered this aircraft before painting it red. Did they then lacquer it a second time, causing the red to appear slightly more orange as seen it the larger image with the cross?!

 

Also, ZachariasX, I still don't quite understand how the severe darkening of the red occurs, and over how long of a period of time. Why did it happen in some areas, and not in others? S!


Probably down to how different bits were stored differently (more/less exposure to light/oxygen).

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12 minutes ago, Uffz-Prien said:

Probably down to how different bits were stored differently (more/less exposure to light/oxygen).

This will certainly have an effect.

 

But the sections shown with the Maltese cross are puzzling indeed. The one next to the color scale looks like the back side of one canvas, as you can see the Maltese cross underneath the overpainted Balkenkreuz. But I can make very little sense of that. Black color overpaint by turning the Maltese cross into a Balkenkreuz fades more. Strange. Only the second paint layer prints through towards the underside, suggesting clear dope as base treatment unlike the blue doped one we saw from a wing. As if they came from different aircraft. Maybe that is the case.

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, the_dudeWG said:

I'm a little confused about the turquoise color. I always believed the theory that Fubar reposted that the light blue turned turquoise as a result of the yellowing caused by the lacquer. It seems odd that they would have lacquered this aircraft before painting it red. Did they then lacquer it a second time, causing the red to appear slightly more orange as seen it the larger image with the cross?!

 

Also, ZachariasX, I still don't quite understand how the severe darkening of the red occurs, and over how long of a period of time. Why did it happen in some areas, and not in others? S!

 You might find This Thread from the Aerodrome interesting. It is written by the same author that posted the photos used in your OP. (and oddly enough, the same piece of wood is in two photos.One looks much more red than the other, obviously due to lighting as has been suggested.) In it, he gives his theory for how 425/17 came to be painted.

 

 Much information there.

Edited by J5_Gamecock
typo
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Excerpts from The Fokker Triplane, by Alex Imrie, 1992, page 81:

 

RICHTHOFEN'S TRIPLANES

Red was not an easily available color and was not held in stores by units in the field, unlike black and white and certain camouflage colors which were required for finishing aircraft after repair or during national insignia changes. Its shortage was such that Richthofen often dispatched his Werkmeister, Josef Holzapfel, to search out sources of red (and other) paint in the rear areas. This was done using a two-seat aircraft, and on all such non-operations flights the aircraft’s occupants had to carry a document of flight authorization, signed by a superior officer, stating the destination and purpose of the flight…

 

Since the red color came from a variety of sources (captured Allied red dope was doubtless also used), the exact color and shade obviously varied to quite a degree. Because the triplane used a linseed oil protective varnish finish, ordinary oil paint, suitably thinned, could be used without causing any interaction with the cellulose dope…

 

The choice of red stemmed from the use of reddish brown as a camouflage color on wings and tails in later 1916 and early 1917, but extending this color to the varnished plywood fuselages of Albatros fighters at the time showed that, far from being a good camouflage color on this component, it actually made the aircraft more easily visible at long ranges. This property was turned to good effect in the adoption of markings to enable individual pilots to be identified; it was more effective than the use of personal symbol and was especially favored by formation leaders…

 

 

I know the OT regarded triplanes, but here's an RFC report on a captured Jasta 11 machine (Georg Simon's Albatros D.III 2015/16), brought down 4 June 1917. On the copy of the report were Methuen color codes (I do not know who added them), which I referenced in my Methuen Handbook of Colour and applied (digitally) to the document. Mind you, the original description and resulting color matches are estimates at best. But there is no doubt, at least regarding Jasta 11's Albatrosses, that the red was described as "bright."  

 

 

 

G42 report page 2 with color swatches.jpg

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Interesting topic, skimmed most of it (sorry) but as another hobby I do scale modelling, a while back there was an extensive study on one of those forums regarding this and getting a good colour match ... think it was Large Scale Planes? Those guys are meticulous for detail, might be worth googeling for.

From memory, many of the findings there seem to echo the findings in this thread.


For sure I have the 1/32 Roden Dr.I with after-market parts and decals to build Richthofen's kite and will be researching again the appropriate red to use come build time.

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Posted (edited)

Indeed, there are a couple of interesting threads. If there only was a chemist among the researchers. We know now the base of all paints, cellulose lacquer for the first layer and the linseed oil for the paint. If they just sample a milligram of that you could check for the tint by chromatography. Standard method for detecting any molecules and much facilitated when you have guesses on what to look for. Easy enough to for anything soluble. You could just make a new mix of that original colors (you could get the ratio of any tints used) without getting distracted by what you are seeing after a century.

 

Edited by ZachariasX
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There really are a couple interpretations of the color schemes. Someone very dedicated to this painted his Dr.I 152/17 like this:

 

0631.jpg

(From here: http://www.aeroscale.co.uk/modules.php?op=modload&name=SquawkBox&file=index&req=viewtopic&topic_id=117346&page=1 )

 

The genesis of a default factory camouflage pattern is difficult enough to grasp. But the nonconforming red (that wouldn‘t let MvR‘s Dr.I pass acceptance) is a whole different thing.

 

Model builders of course just care for what the color in their eyes could be and try to match any combination of todays tints to what they think it should be.

 

That people back then did not care that much about being exact in mixing colors is shown by the variations in blue lacquer, something that most definitely required a mix of tints to get something like sky blue.

 

The guy who produced that beautiful Fokker above said this about the paint job:

 

The entire skeletal airframe was covered with the same fabric. The undersurfaces were painted the blue color that slightly varied (Methuen codes 22 B 3.5 to 24 A 5). The undersurfaces were painted with one coat sky blue. After varnishing (to waterproof the fabric) the color shifted to turquoise 25 B/C 5. On the bottom edge of the fuselage and top edge of the tailplane, the turquoise wrapped around the edged 20mm.

The sides of the fuselage and the top surfaces had the Fokker camouflage (greenish color streaks) applied then the bottom surfaces were painted the blue color. There was no over-paint in the top surfaces from the factory just the green streaked camouflage.

The upper surface color was olive-brown and varied from very dark to very light. The fabric on the wings, tailplane and rudder were given two coats of clear dope, one cocoat of the olive -brown streaking, the fuselage was given one coat of clear dope and one color coat of olive streaking. All fabric surfaces were given a final coat of varnish to waterproof the fabric. The Metheun colors codes are: dark, 4 F 8; medium, 4 E 5; and light 4 D 8.

These colors were coded by Paul S. Leaman from fabric samples taken from Fok.DR.I 144/17.

 

As said, I‘d be really happy if someone sampled the paint instead of whatever is left of the color. Once you know the tint(s and their ratio), the you can recreate the paint. Having that, it is easy to sample color from that, using less esoteric color charts.

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Wow, great info from you all! Right now, I'm looking at an RGB value of 130,18,14 - which I obtained from the MRP paint "Richthofen's Red", which is derived from the Krapplack red. I probably need to add a little yellowing to it to reflect a lacquered version of it, and maybe darken it a bit ... depending on how it looks in-game. I'm purposefully not rushing this project in case others wish to weigh in with differing opinions. I appreciate all the useful and interesting info everyone has provided. S!

 

 

KrapplackRed.jpg

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Posted (edited)

S! Dude & All,

 

I live in Toronto, Canada and in 2009 visited the Royal Canadian Military Institute (RCMI). They have MvR items (a port fuselage Balkankreuze, seat and wing section) on display and I took the photos below (apologies for the quality of the photos - it was 10 years ago!) Their display and cabinet have since been redesigned. I also copied their descriptive text about the display and have pasted it below. It includes their analysis of the actual colour. At the end, I've also included a personal comment about the wing section.

 

Regards,

 

JG1_Dudley

 

Manfred von Richthofen's Fokker Triplane Seat, 21st April 1918.

Seat of Germany's "Red Devil."

The curved aluminum/plywood seat had a red linen covering. Only fabric scraps around the seat edges remain today.

Bullet holes in the seat?

The holes in the seat's center are not bullet holes, but are mounting holes which joined the seat to the aircraft's internal frame.

"The Red Air Fighter" died in this seat.

Around 1045 hours on 21st April 1918, near Corbie village, Somme River Valley, France, Rittmeister Manfred Freiherr von Richthofen, the 80 victory German "ace" fighter pilot, died in this seat.


Manfred von Richthofen's Fokker Triplane Wingtip, 21st April 1918.

A lifting surface of the Fokker Triplane.

This is the middle or lower starboard wingtip of von Richthofen's Fokker Triplane.

Wingtip reveals Fokker Triplane construction.

Fokker Triplane wings were built around light, strong plywood/spruce box spars. Plywood leading edges, ribs, and stiff wire trailing edges gave the wings their shape.

 

Manfred von Richthofen's Fokker Triplane Fuselage Fabric, 21st April 1918.

Fabric "skin" of the Fokker Triplane.

The aircraft had a linen fabric "skin" strengthened, tightened, and waterproofed with layers of applied aircraft dope.

How red is red?

The "skin" was then painted a distinctive red colour. Military aviation historians and artists are interested in the fabric because it shows through visual and microscopic study, the exact shade of red: "Lake Red Methuen 9 (C-D) 8."

Germany's military aircraft markings.

From early 1918, smaller, straight-sided black/white crosses identified German military aircraft. This cross is from the port side of von Richthofen's aircraft.

 

Provenance of von Richthofen seat, fuselage fabric, wingtip in Museum collection.

In 1920, Captain Arthur Roy Brown, D.S.C.* presented the seat and fabric to the Canadian Military Institute. (After Brown obtained the fabric from the Fokker Triplane, his squadron mates ripped out the the cross center, signed their names to a white linen panel, and fixed it to the cross center. The names are still visible today).

Brown also had the wingtip, and gave it to his friend, then-Lieutenant-Colonel William "Billy" Bishop, V.C., D.S.O.*, M.C., D.F.C. In 1968, Bishop's son Arthur presented the wingtip to the Royal Canadian Military Institute.

Generations of Institute members, their guests, and professional researchers have studied the von Richthofen seat, fabric, and wingtip.


K. Ellis - Personal comment on the wingtip: The wingtip is described as being from the middle or bottom wing. I find it curious that the trailing edge of the wingtip is concave. This suggests to me that the section might really be from the top wing with the concave edge being for the aileron. The Fokker Triplane only had ailerons on its top wing. However, I am an amateur. Perhaps others more knowledgeable can correct me.  

 

 

RCMI-Displaycase.jpg

MvR-DR1-Balkankreuze.jpg

MvR-DR1-Seat.jpg

MvR-DR1-WingSection1.jpg

MvR-DR1-WingSection2.jpg

MvR-DR1-WingSection3.jpg

MvR-DR1-WingSection4.jpg

MvR-DR1-WingSection5.jpg

Edited by JG1_Dudley
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I‘ve come across this:

http://www.theaerodrome.com/forum/showpost.php?p=130278&postcount=16

in a related discussion on the aerodrome forum regarding the colors.

 

It is a comment about the variation of colors over time. One quote:

In order to ascertain "what it looked like" you have to decide if you are talking about its first day as a plane, first day in flight and sunshine, or after first storm, or first bullet holes, or what have you.

 

You really have some headroom for artistic interpretation.

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Hey, Dudley! How've you been? Thanks for the great pics! Speaking of which, just look at the extreme darkening along the right and left side of the balkenkreuz. It's really bad. There's no way his aircrafts were that dark when he piloted them. S!

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Methuen 9C8, "Lake Red"  9C8.jpg   9D8 would be a shade darker.  How does that compare to Krapplak?

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I'm going to venture a guess that doing historical repaints always end the same way for everyone who has ever done it:  5 minutes after you are done, and it's posted for distribuition, and you can't stand to look at it for one more second, you will...and you will want to change it.  So just pick a color, call it good enough, and don't torment your eyes with it any further.

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4 hours ago, J5_Gamecock said:

Methuen 9C8, "Lake Red"  9C8.jpg   9D8 would be a shade darker.  How does that compare to Krapplak?

GC, where did u find this? I've been searching everywhere with no luck ...

 

Anyway, looks pretty orange. Especially when I open the image in PSD ...

 

 

SnapShot.jpg

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1 hour ago, unreasonable said:

Probably from here: scroll down a bit to see the colour examples.  https://artquill.blogspot.com/2012/12/methuen-color-index-and-classification.html

It is a nice read. Also, people not used working with colors in such away mist know that this is a color classification system that didn‘t exist when the aircraft was painted. It is just an arbitrary (and discontinued, a book on these colors is about $250+ used!) scale to gauge the various shades of red present on the original artifacts.

 

I find it strange that people would be looking to measure the decayed portions where the tint essentially started to fade, creating a yellow shift and turning the whole thing orange or „lake red“. It is also pointless doing so for the brown sections, where you‘d be sure to find more dirt and a thicker layer of darkened varnish, that in turn protects the red below from sunlight.

 

The red chosen by @the_dudeWG seems a sensible choice for what could have been the appearance of the plane at some point during service.

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Posted (edited)
11 hours ago, unreasonable said:

Probably from here: scroll down a bit to see the colour examples.  https://artquill.blogspot.com/2012/12/methuen-color-index-and-classification.html

 Exactly right.  Great resource for (some) colors.

 

 You're correct Dude, "Lake Red" would be on the orange side of red in the Methuen index. I only looked at it after reading Dudleys post on the subject.

 

Edited by J5_Gamecock

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Someone needs to steal a piece from the museum ;) and subject it to a proper forensic test: is the red based on mercury sulphide, carminic acid, alizarin etc.

 

Then you would know the base colour range: undercoats, varnish, castor oil spray, oxidation etc all adding their distinct effects. 

 

Perhaps a reason MvR's performance gradually declined - in addition to the effects of his head wound - after his early high scoring period was because he was suffering from mercury poisoning? If his plane really was painted with large quantities of vermillion, which is highly toxic, he would have been in close proximity to it for many hours almost every day. Vermillion also oxidises to a darker brick like reddish brown, so perhaps that is what we are seeing on the samples in addition to varnish darkening.

 

Anyway, a fascinating detective story: but it really needs some definitive forensic work for a satisfying ending.

 

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1 hour ago, unreasonable said:

Vermillion also oxidises to a darker brick like reddish brown, so perhaps that is what we are seeing on the samples in addition to varnish darkening.

 Ahhhh... The plot thickens!😀

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OT: Respectfully, Richthofen's performance did not gradually decline as any affect of his head wound in July 1917. In March and April 1918, he was at the top of his game, in the best form since Bloody April. The popularly thrice-told tales of MvR being remorse and aloof and still-injured when he died are myths. All evidence--ALL--indicates he had healed/recovered from his wound. His totals were down after Bloody April because he was gone all of May and most of June on leave, then hospitalized in July; fought sporadically in August as he recovered; had recuperative leave in September and October 1917; and then the pace of all air fighting slackened with the worsening weather into winter. He was gone on Christmas leave, then all of January 1918 he was in Russia. He returned to the front in February 1918 but the records indicate the weather was so bad there was little flying/fighting and no ground campaigns to support or oppose. When things improved in March, Richthofen was back at it. He shot down 11 planes in March and 6 in April, despite frequent bad weather in the latter--and 9 of these victories were Sopwith Camels. 

 

Anyway, as I said, OT. Perhaps we can discuss in a new thread. 

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46 minutes ago, JFM said:

Anyway, as I said, OT. Perhaps we can discuss in a new thread. 

 

Respectfully, when a medical doctor opines in the Lancet that MvR was probably suffering from a long lasting concussion injury, one should be cautious about writing off his reported symptoms as "myths" and "popularly thrice told tales".  https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(98)11106-6/fulltext

 

He may be wrong - and indeed I am being somewhat TiC with my comment: but who knows?  You are right though that this is OT.

 

 

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Posted (edited)

I am well familiar with that article, and have corresponded with Dr. Allmers. Indeed, medically/biologically it is correct, but its application to Richthofen is historically INcorrect. That's the problem with many of these "unfit to fly" assertions by various doctors: They are based on flawed history. "Flawed" meaning they don't fully understand what actually happened. It's not their faults, however; they are regurgitating regurgitated myths. Want to know why/how? PM me or start a new thread. Or, read:  https://www.amazon.com/Inside-Victories-Manfred-Richthofen-Comprehensive/dp/1935881434/ref=pd_sim_14_1/138-8015559-8024919?_encoding=UTF8&pd_rd_i=1935881434&pd_rd_r=9cd70c15-6d9e-11e9-9381-ffdfe42e5ee6&pd_rd_w=QOXds&pd_rd_wg=hrvBu&pf_rd_p=90485860-83e9-4fd9-b838-b28a9b7fda30&pf_rd_r=9G5FHJEXDJF7MMH5NW97&psc=1&refRID=9G5FHJEXDJF7MMH5NW97 

Edited by JFM
typo
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Here is what I'm looking to propose (and how I arrived at the color level used) ...

 

1. I took the MRP paint color "Richthofen's Red" and came up with a paint chip/RGB color level.

 

2. I brightened it until it became a very close match to a MvR wing spar sample that appears to be a (speculatively) well preserved sample of the original color.

 

3. I adjusted the yellow level slightly higher to simulate a lacquered fabric result (although probably not at a "100 years later" level).

 

 

The in-game result falls in between other the two MvR skins we have, and I'm comfortable with using this color of red for all Jasta 11 machines I've worked, or will be working on. Please feel free to dispute or support my opinion before I start updating my PSD files. Thanks!

 

 

Red_notes2.jpg

FDr1_MvR red comparison (NEW).jpg

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I really like the updated 152/7. It is far better than both the official (too dark for a red in bright light conditions) and the custom 425/17 (too orange).

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@the_dudeWG The only comment I would add is that if it is true that they were painted from a variety of paints sourced at different times from different places, I would not expect great uniformity, so there is no need to make all Jasta 11 reds the same.  

 

On 5/3/2019 at 7:29 PM, JFM said:

I am well familiar with that article, and have corresponded with Dr. Allmers. Indeed, medically/biologically it is correct, but its application to Richthofen is historically INcorrect. That's the problem with many of these "unfit to fly" assertions by various doctors: They are based on flawed history. "Flawed" meaning they don't fully understand what actually happened. It's not their faults, however; they are regurgitating regurgitated myths. Want to know why/how? PM me or start a new thread. Or, read:  https://www.amazon.com/Inside-Victories-Manfred-Richthofen-Comprehensive/dp/1935881434/ref=pd_sim_14_1/138-8015559-8024919?_encoding=UTF8&pd_rd_i=1935881434&pd_rd_r=9cd70c15-6d9e-11e9-9381-ffdfe42e5ee6&pd_rd_w=QOXds&pd_rd_wg=hrvBu&pf_rd_p=90485860-83e9-4fd9-b838-b28a9b7fda30&pf_rd_r=9G5FHJEXDJF7MMH5NW97&psc=1&refRID=9G5FHJEXDJF7MMH5NW97 

 

I think the best anyone can say about complex events that happened a century ago is that often nobody fully understands what actually happened, nor can they. You may be right, of course: but your choice of language - which is borderline obnoxious - does not motivate me to add your book to my already extensive collection of WW1 aviation history. 

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Posted (edited)

Hi, Unreasonable. I am sorry you find my reply obnoxious; that was/is not my intent and please accept my apology. I'm just direct and secure in my convictions. I have studied the subject which we've discussed using the same material the doctors have used, which is the ONLY material there is on it. As a researcher I entered the arena without an agenda to push, but rather a want to find what was true, because there are so many different version in various books. Ignoring them and going to the only sources of the material, the  historical "evidence" the doctors presented as "proof" of their assertions is based on incorrect understandings of history. I agree, we cannot fully understand what happened so far removed, but when after accessing the same and only material I have realized their errors, I should keep quiet? No. I'm not being obnoxious, just honest. And I'm trying to guide everyone away from the notion of a Geocentric solar system, so to speak.

While your disinterest in the book is unfortunate for the truth, but it doesn't change that truth. As the saying goes, the truth is still true, even if no one believes. If you are interested, instead it'd be my pleasure to PM you some documents/information. If after reading them you think I should pound sand, so be it. 

EDIT: I forgot to add I agree with Unreasonable regarding the Jasta 11 red. There is provenance for inexact hues being used by various Staffeln, as told by the pilots to German researcher Bruno Schmaeling. 

Edited by JFM
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I agree that all Jasta 11 reds do not need to be identical, however, I would prefer that my skins are using a red that is more or less "average" in terms of brightness and yellow vs. blue levels. Besides, there will be plenty of other red variations created by other skin designers if we want variety. I would prefer mine weren't all on the far end of the darkness scale. S!

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