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56RAF_Roblex

Bomber lethality

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Posted (edited)

Servers can set AI of gunners to lovest rank and there would not be big problem.

Yesterday i attaked 2 ju88s on WoL where all gunners are set to Ace and i got hit every time, if they were low skill i would not get hit.

If they had 20mm or 12mm insted 7mm i would be shoot down, like pe2 with 12mm is shooting down paper 109s, its not op pe2 its all ai gunners when set to ace that hit you in extream situations also.

 

So in short problem of AI that tracks you incredably is on al bombers, but its important to know ion what skill is set.

 

Also who would fly online in bombers when his AI gunners are set to novice and he has no chance to atleast drops bombs on target so he didnt spend 15-30mnin flying ifor nothing and punish his attackers before 2 or 3rd one shoot him down, as there is BIG ratio of fighters to bombers and bomber pllayer has to have some advantage like ace skill gunners.

 

Have anyone of complaining guys ever did a test novice bomber gunners and ace and see how big differance is and that novice gunners behave more like most wont to have in game, but online you need to give bomber guys fighting chance where they dont have luxury of flying in big numbers, and are always at disadvantage.

Edited by 77.CountZero
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Posted (edited)
16 hours ago, Reckoner_ said:

Except it was the bottom gunner to actually hit him not the top gunner that had way more time on target.

Since you quoted me I'll assume you understood I thought this was the top gunner hitting him (This is a ridiculous sentence, isn't it?). I knew it was the bottom gunner (hence the about half a second I mentioned), I was merely saying that Sheriff ended up this attack exiting right below the gunner, so aiming at this point wasn't really an issue. Reaction time was still out of this world though, so it's irrelevant, my point was exactly that the "your attack was sloppy" crowd is wrong.

 

Gunners don't die, don't get suppressed, aim instantaneously and extremely precisely, and see through their own plane.

5 minutes ago, 77.CountZero said:

~Snip~

I think people who played the last TAW (I didn't) said that even with gunners set to 30% the results were the same. Offline, though, yeah, low skill gunners are ridiculously bad. Like, probably too bad.

Edited by Quinte

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Quinte said:

 

Gunners don't die

 

 Not sure you meant to say that 😏Some like in the PE2 have more armour than others but a cannon in the face still kills them. 

Edited by 56RAF_Roblex
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Posted (edited)

Yeah obviously I exaggerated that. The do die. You have to hit them right in the face though, an HE 20mm close doesn't seem to do the job.

Edited by Quinte

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pe2 gunner has only ~15s of ammo, so you can always play safe and do few passes to drain his top or bottomgunner and then get him, i did this few times to 111H16s when i catch them far from target, but because of short visability most fighters just stay over tagets and then you dont have time to attack smart but its all in...

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2 hours ago, Quinte said:

(1) Gunners don't die, (2) don't get suppressed, (3) aim instantaneously and (4) extremely precisely, and (5) see through their own plane.

(1) sounds exaggerated, but cannot be ruled out completely IMO;

(2) unproven, but likely IMO;

(3) proven IMO;

(4) depends on skill level IMO;

(5) proven IMO.

In the other thread I argued that the crucial problem here is the omnivisage of the AI, the rest is mostly a consequence of that.

1 hour ago, 56RAF_Roblex said:

 Not sure you meant to say that 😏

Not as absurd as it might sound. Several versions ago it actually happaned to me in an SP game that I killed the gunner of a 110 and one minute later his unmanned MG started firing at me. I have the vid recorded from the track showing my hit and the gunner collapsing, and later scenes like this:

image.thumb.jpeg.1444290a3ad6056c2269b3736b2a1495.jpeg

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5 hours ago, Quinte said:

my point was exactly that the "your attack was sloppy" crowd is wrong.

 

We're on the same page then :)

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Posted (edited)

From the bomber pilot perspective, we see a lot of the misconceptions stated here complained about in chat every time we fly and shoot an attacking fighter down. First, what seems a high G turn to an attacking fighter, often isn't to your bomber prey. If you're closing at twice the speed, from altitude, and then trying to lead a bomber's turn - guess what, you are pulling 3 or 4 times the G's as the bomber, or more.

 

On the rare occasion I am in a high G maneuver, the gunner is extremely effected and it's impossible to shoot. But high G maneuvers in a pe-2 usually end in a maneuver kill, so we rarely do them.

 

Regarding AI gunners - they are terrible. We'd turn them off if we could. They waste all the ammo while rarely scoring a hit. They do land the occasional crazy potshot at extreme range, but they also score about 1/100 when a fighter is hanging dead six 100 feet behind your tail, which is the far more important shot.

 

Just like all the bomber pilots I fly with, nearly all of my gunner kills are me flying from the back seat, and doing the shooting myself. Not the AI. Most of my kills are fighters foolishly approaching right behind and hanging with me in long, loping, low-G turns. Your high speed zoom climb right above us? That's also an easy shot, you're hanging virtually in one spot from our perspective. A smart fighter who makes slashing attacks utilizing both the horizontal and vertical planes? Now that's a tough kill...but thankfully, it's rarely what we see.

 

Anyway, give us an option to turn off AI gunners I say. And something to let the fighters know it was a human who shot ya...

Edited by 69th_Bazzer
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Posted (edited)

My only complaint continues to be the survival rate of gunners. Landing multiple hits in the crew compartments of a Pe2 or Il2 often has little to no effect on gunners. In reality it was a very lethal position in any bomber and survival rates were very poor. In game it seems less so over many hundreds of "combat" hours. I don't really have any problems with their accuracy and use decent tactic to avoid their fire. Once in a while I get sloppy and pay the price but take responsibility for my own actions there.

Edited by II/JG17_HerrMurf
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@69th_Bazzer Standard procedure for LW pilots attacking bombers was to roll into a dive after the pass, not a climb.  For all of the reasons you mentioned - flying slowly in the middle of a bomber formation is just a good way to die.  Rolling and diving keeps speed while changing the deflection angle, making the fighter a very difficult target.  It also leaves the fighter below the bombers, which means it is going to take time to set up the next attack.  Keeping speed, extending, setting up for the next pass is the way to survive, but it takes more patience as well as the fighter occasionally conceding that he's not going to get the job done this time.

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Posted (edited)
11 minutes ago, PatrickAWlson said:

@69th_Bazzer Standard procedure for LW pilots attacking bombers was to roll into a dive after the pass, not a climb.  For all of the reasons you mentioned - flying slowly in the middle of a bomber formation is just a good way to die.  Rolling and diving keeps speed while changing the deflection angle, making the fighter a very difficult target.  It also leaves the fighter below the bombers, which means it is going to take time to set up the next attack.  Keeping speed, extending, setting up for the next pass is the way to survive, but it takes more patience as well as the fighter occasionally conceding that he's not going to get the job done this time.

 

That maybe work offline where you have bombers flying in formations and abow 100m :) online all bombers are on deck or dive to deck as sone their gunner says "whats that"

So then after pass on bomber most turn left or right exposing their airplane to side gunners or climb up and get pepered by front or top ones. 

 

Lately i encounter high flying bombers not because objectives are made for them but they stop going after objectives and now just go to bomb humans on spawn bases, and thouse ones you can attack normaly like you read in books if by any chance your able to climbe abow them in vvs fighters, but 90% of bombers just fly on deck and bomb on deck and even if we have B-17 or B-29 or Fw-200, they would also be used to bomb from 100m, as objectives are made that way and this is most effective way to bomb most stuff and make it hard for attackers.

 

 

Edited by 77.CountZero

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Posted (edited)

It's true that most of WOL bombers are flying low ,but  that can be  addressed by mission designers (but too much AAA AI can kill server performance ,low bomber could setup up radio alarm), Anyway flying low should be dangerous but now is safer especially if you fly alone. GPS enabled servers also helps stay low , you don't have to navigate which is much easier from high .

Edited by 307_Tomcat

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27 minutes ago, 307_Tomcat said:

It's true that most of WOL bombers are flying low ,but  that can be  addressed by mission designers (but too much AAA AI can kill server performance ,low bomber could setup up radio alarm), Anyway flying low should be dangerous but now is safer especially if you fly alone. GPS enabled servers also helps stay low , you don't have to navigate which is much easier from high .

 

I would hate to see the game or servers changed to *force* bombers to fly high,  especially in Eastern Front maps where high level bombing was not the norm.   I am hoping that eventually we will get Mosquitos for the European maps and I want to fly them at hedge height.  A20s, B25s, A26s, Do17s & Ju88s also got used at low level.      I agree that if we ever got B17s (which I doubt) then it would be silly to see them flying low down but I would hope that any game that has B17s would also include targets designed for saturation bombing from altitude as well as the pin-point targets for JU87s & PE2s etc. 

OTOH there were a few low & mid level raids done by  heavies during WW2;  Peenemunde was only done from a few thousand feet  if I recall correctly and at Augsberg they took in Lancasters at heights as low as 50ft.    Heavies can so this and avoiding detection is one of the real-world advantages but it is riskier.  It comes down to fly low and be more accurate for higher risk or fly high in greater numbers with more safety and hope to drop enough bombs to hit your target by the law of averages.  We can already do that in-game but what skews the equation is that people are willing to take the riskier low level route because it is quicker and death is not an issue and, as previously stated,  lazy navigators can use GPS in some servers.  Personally I never fly in servers with GPS and would be happy for death to be more 'inconvenient'.

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Also, gunners can and do die. 

 

I’ve brought home enough dead gunners in my time to confirm that. 

 

And human players in the gunner position can be injured in the same way as pilots (red screen and blurred vision) so AI gunners likely can be injured too, although what effect this has on them I don’t know. 

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I went in today flying pe 2 on Knight server. I climbed to 5k and levelbombed a dugout. Plan was to turn and levelbomb another but then I changed my mind and turned for a active airbase instead. I overshot it and dived instead. Got attacked by 3 fighters on deck. I flew steady and went into the turret. Pretty sure I emptied the gun and shot down one attacker. In the next second when I returned to pilot I had shot down two more. Got a serious hit and flatspin into ground. I might gotten rammed but if my gunner killed two in that short time I admit something wrong

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5 hours ago, 56RAF_Roblex said:

 

I would hate to see the game or servers changed to *force* bombers to fly high,  especially in Eastern Front maps where high level bombing was not the norm.   I am hoping that eventually we will get Mosquitos for the European maps and I want to fly them at hedge height.  A20s, B25s, A26s, Do17s & Ju88s also got used at low level.      I agree that if we ever got B17s (which I doubt) then it would be silly to see them flying low down but I would hope that any game that has B17s would also include targets designed for saturation bombing from altitude as well as the pin-point targets for JU87s & PE2s etc. 

OTOH there were a few low & mid level raids done by  heavies during WW2;  Peenemunde was only done from a few thousand feet  if I recall correctly and at Augsberg they took in Lancasters at heights as low as 50ft.    Heavies can so this and avoiding detection is one of the real-world advantages but it is riskier.  It comes down to fly low and be more accurate for higher risk or fly high in greater numbers with more safety and hope to drop enough bombs to hit your target by the law of averages.  We can already do that in-game but what skews the equation is that people are willing to take the riskier low level route because it is quicker and death is not an issue and, as previously stated,  lazy navigators can use GPS in some servers.  Personally I never fly in servers with GPS and would be happy for death to be more 'inconvenient'.

 

Ploiesti oil raid (Operation Tidal Wave) was done from low altitude, it was an absolute disaster for the B-24s.

B-26 also operated from low altitude during the war but quickly learned that mid altitude was safer after taking heavy losses at lower altitudes.

 

There should be a good mix of dangers when flying low and high, currently flying low has very little disadvantages unlike in reality. Flying low should most certainly be dangerous if not more so than flying higher up.

1200px-Operation_Tidal_Wave_in_1943.jpg

 

180422-F-FN604-026.JPG

 

 

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6 hours ago, 56RAF_Roblex said:

I agree that if we ever got B17s (which I doubt) then it would be silly to see them flying low down 

 

If developers made an “online” bomb load that required 15 seconds or more of free fall to arm themselves, then those MP bombers would always operate at higher altitudes.  

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Posted (edited)
21 hours ago, 56RAF_Roblex said:

 

 PE2 have more armour than others but a cannon in the face still kills them. 

 

Complete and utter codswallop Roblex, sorry. 

Posted March 31 (edited)

 

 

Cannon in face you say?

 

@=EXPEND=SchwarzeDreizehn No Pe2 gunner's faces were harmed  in the making of this video.

 

http://il2stat.aviaskins.com:8008/de/sortie/log/4194290/?tour=46

 

This is happening all the time.

 

Edited by Bilbo_Baggins
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On 4/16/2019 at 12:18 PM, Nocke said:

What exactly are those gifs supposed to teach me? I see a fighter coming in from a very favorable position for the gunner, shooting a pe2 to pieces, but getting hit in the engine in the process. From the little I can see in this poor quality stuff the gunner can very well have hit the fighter before getting hit himself. Perhaps the gunner even died? I am not getting any real information. Maybe some high quality slowmo could show something - but these gifs are rather worthless in my humble opinion.

That shot was absurd. That pintle gunner kept a perfect cool while his plane was coming apart around him, then magically predicted the 190s position through smoke and debris, and then aimed downwards with lightning fast reflexes at a 190 with extremely high closure and pulled off a nearly 90deg deflection shot with a fraction of a second to do so.

 

BS.

 

 

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Posted (edited)

Maybe *a* solution would be to remove the option from server admins to set AI gunner skill and have it hard set to do random, from rookie to vet (no ace), per gunner (ground and air).

And fix where gunners don't die when lit up with rounds and/or the gun doesn't continue to fire when the gunner is wounded/dead (if that's anything more than an occasional code glitch).

Edited by Uffz-Prien
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Posted (edited)
12 hours ago, Bilbo_Baggins said:

 

Complete and utter codswallop Roblex, sorry. 

Posted March 31 (edited)

 

 

Cannon in face you say?

 

@=EXPEND=SchwarzeDreizehn No Pe2 gunner's faces were harmed  in the making of this video.

 

http://il2stat.aviaskins.com:8008/de/sortie/log/4194290/?tour=46

 

This is happening all the time.

 

 

I can also show you videos of fighters having the cockpit filled with cannon shells and the pilot not being hurt.  That is just DM & graphical glitches

 

114609_original.jpg

Edited by 56RAF_Roblex

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5 hours ago, Uffz-Prien said:

Maybe *a* solution would be to remove the option from server admins to set AI gunner skill and have it hard set to do random, from rookie to vet (no ace), per gunner (ground and air).

 

Not a viable solution for a few reasons.

For starters, even ‘normal’ setting results in very high accuracy, never mind ‘high’ or ‘ace’

 

As already stated here and as I’ve said many times in the past, ‘low’ setting yields the most realistic results.

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Well as said earlier I got 3 109 in 3 seconds.  I guess second because he was so annoyed be me shooting down his friend and last rammed me in frustration. And it must have been devastating for them that I survived. 

I believe firmly that many whom I personally shot down as a gunner never really know how easy it is with a 12 mm gun. And those whom really got confidence. I have no chance at all. It is something wrong with ai gunners on aa aaa and bombers. But not all the time. I am sure this accuracy is a game problem and not related to one particular plane

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4 hours ago, 56RAF_Roblex said:

 

I can also show you videos of fighters having the cockpit filled with cannon shells and the pilot not being hurt.  That is just DM & graphical glitches

 

114609_original.jpg

If its from MP then it can easy be net thing or if its also from recording then that also, best is test in SP abd if something is wrong then they will fix it in no time, but videos from MP or replays i dont think are relaiable.

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Hi CountZero,

 

yes it can, but why it is only with HE? In all videos ( live recording/streaming ), or flying in MP i see the normal explosions from HE shells in the cockpit / gunner cockpit multiple

times dosen`t matters witch side. On the other side with AP you kill the pilot easy in MP, when you hit the cockpit. You don`t even need to hit the cockpit. You can do it right from

the six through the plane body and the pilot is death. And after the last update i think it got even esyer with AP again, as the devs made them stronger again. I think it`s mostly

a HE shell problem, when it comes to killing the human pilot, AI pilot or AI gunner.

 

regards

 

Little_D

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I dont know, maybe shrapnel is to week, or in center of hit nothing happends or pilots are to strong and so on...but only way ppl who think something is wrong will get definitive answer is by doing test in SP and send logs or even replays from test to devs.

Videos from online will not to anything to get this fixed if it realy is problem. Its just for sake of complaining and having something to blaim on when get shoot down and so on...

And as all this time no one bathered to test AI gunners in detail in sp it seams ppl just like to complain and dont wont to see if problme exist or is it even bug.

Devs are clear in saying DM videos from MP mean nothing to them as it can be many diff things involved so its hard to know.

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Personally I think more people would enjoy being a gunner if handling the gun was not so weighted feeling. The guns just rotate so slow that most people cannot react in time to properly use them. However AI gunners can react even though they are more super human accurate. Aiming down the sights of a mounted machine gun should not be so taxing and such a burden. The system needs to be improved. 

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This one from TAW always left a bad taste in my mouth. The guy had less than a quarter second to aim.

 

 

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Posted (edited)
On 4/19/2019 at 1:12 PM, 1./JG2_Little_D said:

Hi CountZero,

 

yes it can, but why it is only with HE? In all videos ( live recording/streaming ), or flying in MP i see the normal explosions from HE shells in the cockpit / gunner cockpit multiple

times dosen`t matters witch side. On the other side with AP you kill the pilot easy in MP, when you hit the cockpit. You don`t even need to hit the cockpit. You can do it right from

the six through the plane body and the pilot is death. And after the last update i think it got even esyer with AP again, as the devs made them stronger again. I think it`s mostly

a HE shell problem, when it comes to killing the human pilot, AI pilot or AI gunner.

 

regards

 

Little_D

Agree, just yesterday i was playing aroud in quick battle, shooting down bombers. It really feels ridiculus to see bunch of 20mm HE hitting in a pass entire body of a plane from pilot to tail. And no one ever dies. Especially annoying with gunners where you shoot 20mm shells from bf110, hitting it bunch of times and gunners feel immortal.

 

On 4/18/2019 at 5:13 AM, Bilbo_Baggins said:

Complete and utter codswallop Roblex, sorry.

Cannon in face you say?

 

Yep, that's exactly it, and it's not only pe2, same things happen to il2. Probaly every plane. In my pass yesterday (single player) i hit it even more times than on video. Hope something will be done about it.

Edited by InProgress
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Posted (edited)
10 hours ago, Geronimo553 said:

Personally I think more people would enjoy being a gunner if handling the gun was not so weighted feeling. The guns just rotate so slow that most people cannot react in time to properly use them. However AI gunners can react even though they are more super human accurate. Aiming down the sights of a mounted machine gun should not be so taxing and such a burden. The system needs to be improved. 

I agree so much! Sitting in the back, yelling at the pilot in combat is so much fun. I´d love to see more responsive controls for player gunners, especially head movement when aiming down sights.

Edit: Maybe auto disable head movement when aiming down sights would help much!

Edited by Leon_Portier

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On 4/17/2019 at 11:13 PM, Bilbo_Baggins said:
Posted March 31 (edited)


 

 

Cannon in face you say?

It looks to me like the shell exploded just on the outside of the plane, not on or in the canopy. Also the gunner looks dead or at least inactive as his head and body are resting on the right side of the plane as it banks looking like he fell there, right behind the gun as he would be alive and firing.

 

I have been doing some successful bomber attacking, part of a good attack is to never be in a favorable spot for the gunner, even for a split second. Many of the videos in this and the other thread the fighter is in a favorable position for the bomber gunner, even if it is for only a split second.

It appears as the gunners acquire the fighters attacking and then are able to do the fast snap shots when the fighter makes its second pass.

 

3 hours ago, Talon_ said:

 

 

 

In both passes the fighter ended up at the dead 6 of the bomber. In the first pass the fighter was making a slight right turn which apparently was enough to throw the bombers aim off as the gunner fired but didn't hit. In the second pass the fighter went from dead 6 high through dead 6 low, and closer to the bomber than the first pass. Note also that the fighter made both passes from the bombers 6, the best position to get hit by the bomber. 

 

I also suggest flying a bomber a few times, even with the super gunners you will be shot down, as a fighter you are still surviving attacking a bomber more times than the bomber survives getting attacked.

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Even the combat box formations of B-17s weren't that effective in turrets defenses. Dangerous but not lethal like that.

Maybe that's the real reason we couldn't get the Flying Fortress for the BOBP? Imagine what would happen if they would be manned by super-zombie AI gunners we have now... To get just one you would have to ram but attacking a formation of two or three? You wouldn't get anywhere close.

 

There are types of occurrences even more outrageous than showed in the video, too. What about getting shredded by a turret from a spinning bomber just seconds before it hits the ground?

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57 minutes ago, [1/KG]_Cathal_Brugha said:

In both passes the fighter ended up at the dead 6 of the bomber. In the first pass the fighter was making a slight right turn which apparently was enough to throw the bombers aim off as the gunner fired but didn't hit. In the second pass the fighter went from dead 6 high through dead 6 low, and closer to the bomber than the first pass. Note also that the fighter made both passes from the bombers 6, the best position to get hit by the bomber.

The Yak wasn't hit while at dead 6, though, it was passing through the gunner's FoV at an extremely high deflection angle, and only for a moment. I doubt any human could have made that shot. This problem is these incredible snapshots. I've lost count of the number of times I've hit a Ju-52 or Ju-87 from below at high speed, then had my engine perforated as I zoom through the gunner's view in the blink of an eye.

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I do agree that the snap shots are a problem.

 

In the second pass the fighter passed from 6 high through 6 low,  with almost no lateral shift, also traveling not straight down in relation to the bomber but more in the direction the bomber was traveling. In the first pass the fighter went from 5:30 high through 6 level then to 5:30 low, describing a curve, providing a slight lateral shift that was apparently enough to avoid getting hit.

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Posted (edited)
9 hours ago, [1/KG]_Cathal_Brugha said:

the gunner looks dead or at least inactive as his head and body are resting on the right side of the plane as it banks looking like he fell there, right behind the gun as he would be alive and firing.

 

 

 

http://il2stat.aviaskins.com:8008/de/sortie/log/4194290/?tour=46

-No Pe2 gunner faces were hurt in the making of this video.

 

He’s sitting on the right side not because he is dead but because the gunner is out of ammo and he’s sitting in his normal non-engaged position where he normally rests.

 

RGDS

Edited by Bilbo_Baggins

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A dev has stated it’s difficult to program gunners to miss. I’m thinking two things could make it more realistic. Adding dispersion to flexible mounts and changing the acceleration when pivoting the weapon - like the camera acceleration in cinematic mode. (Acceleration, though may be the wrong term. I’m on my phone and can’t look at the GUI) Add a little lag compared to the movement of the AC it is attached to. That’s more for you guys than me. I don’t have major problems with the current implementation of aiming.

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, II/JG17_HerrMurf said:

A dev has stated it’s difficult to program gunners to miss. 

 

Il2 1946 didn’t have this obvious a problem with the gunners though, therefore it’s hard to believe it is simply that difficult to program hence why we have so much drama surrounding this issue.

 

Regards

Edited by Bilbo_Baggins

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1 hour ago, Bilbo_Baggins said:

Il2 1946 didn’t have this obvious a problem with the gunners though

 

Oh, yes it did. Long were the complaints of gunners still firing at enemy planes, even when the plane was doomed and spinning out of control.

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Bilbo_Baggins said:

 

Il2 1946 didn’t have this obvious a problem with the gunners though, therefore it’s hard to believe it is simply that difficult to program and why we have so much drama surrounding this issue.

 

Regards


I believe I found the dev's fix for the issue. I happened to crash my bf-110 g2 perfectly in line facing a road of Russian trucks earlier today. I lucked out and the rear gunner was facing the road so I decided to use the rear gunner to shoot the trucks. This road was no more than 70-100m away and I could not hit the trucks by aiming directly at them. Bullets were spraying out like water from a garden hose everywhere, but straight. Left, right, up, and down it was like shooting a gun from call of duty, it was so bad.

My gunner had not been shooting as there were no enemy aircraft and AAA brought us down. So the machine gun was not overheated. The only way I can explain why this happened is that the devs made the mounted machine guns very inaccurate to counter the laser vision of the AI. I'm not a fan of such fictional firearm performance and I prefer realistic ballistics in a simulator. Also I do not believe the mg's were this inaccurate several months ago.

Edited by Geronimo553

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