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Atomeur

Are French planes coming a day ?

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After, what about add just 1 old plane of this period (like Amiot 143, farman F222.2, LeO H257 bis...) just to represent all of the old aircrafts of this period, because if you take just 1 type of aircraft (Like Amiot 143), they weren't a lot. But if you take all of the old aircrafts (during the battle) they was a lot !

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On 4/12/2019 at 3:29 PM, 6./ZG26_Loke said:

The D. 520 were hardly used due to the few numbers build, and therefore shouldn't be in a BoF. 

More correct would be the M. S. 410 which was used by many squadrons. 

 

I don't know if someone answered you but... 

Ms410: Seems like only 10 french Ms406 has been upadated to 410 variant during BOF. 

D520: 350 delivered to french air Force before the end of BOF.

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yes, MS 406 and D 520 are better to add than MS 410. they were more used during the Battle of France

 

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1 hour ago, Venturi said:

How about Guadalcanal?

There were french aircrafts in this battle?

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17 hours ago, F/JG300_Faucon said:

 

I don't know if someone answered you but... 

Ms410: Seems like only 10 french Ms406 has been upadated to 410 variant during BOF. 

D520: 350 delivered to french air Force before the end of BOF.

It was the 406 I had in mind, my mistanke. 

But it was not 10, but 74 which were converter to 410. Almost the same number as the D. 520. 

So talking of French fighter it should be M. S. 406 that should be used. 

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Posted (edited)
On 4/13/2019 at 11:12 AM, 6./ZG26_Loke said:

Only 79 D. 520's were in service in the spring of 1940. 

 

Where does that statement come from please ?

That number doesn't look to  match anything, apart from the fact that this plane just entered mass production when the germans were crossing the west borders. As said earlier, there were only a few of them on May 10th '40, but they were 351 shipped out from the factories by the armistice date (and 437 built or nearly finnished). By the way, we're talking about Fall Gelb and Fall Rot, which means we're talking about quite low numbers, not like Barbarossa !! So that even a few dozens of active planes is enough to be considered substential. Even germans didn't have thousands and thousands of 109-E neither...

 

4 hours ago, 6./ZG26_Loke said:

But it was not 10, but 74

 

As far as I remember - sry I don't have any source right now - it was only roughly 12 MS.406 that had been upgraded to 410 standards, not 74, during BoF.  You may confuse with Finns I imagine ? Some were converted by Vichy regime also.

Edited by Solmyr

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15 hours ago, Venturi said:

How about Guadalcanal?

Hehehe

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From my documentation, there was only 7 D 520 in the front formation the may 10th (3 in the III/6 and 4 in the II/7).  

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Main french fighters for the start of the campaing were the MS406 and the H75, followed by the Bloch. The Dewotaine were very few and probably made it to the frontline only the second phase of the campaign due to the losses of the other types.

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Posted (edited)
10 hours ago, Alexmarine28 said:

Main french fighters for the start of the campaing were the MS406 and the H75, followed by the Bloch. The Dewotaine were very few and probably made it to the frontline only the second phase of the campaign due to the losses of the other types.

Yes, you have reason, but the D 520 fought against the Italy and the Germans and they were not only 7 against the Italians at least.

Edited by Atomeur

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I think we can do something like :

-Curtiss H.75

-MS 406

-Ltécoère 298 but if it is too hard Breguet 693 / LN 411

-LeO451

premium : - D520 or MB 152

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Posted (edited)
20 hours ago, NN_Razor said:

From my documentation, there was only 7 D 520 in the front formation the may 10th (3 in the III/6 and 4 in the II/7).  

 

14 hours ago, Alexmarine28 said:

Main french fighters for the start of the campaing were the MS406 and the H75, followed by the Bloch. The Dewotaine were very few and probably made it to the frontline only the second phase of the campaign due to the losses of the other types.

 

Guys, please, once again, we know the french campaign started with very few D.520 (I wrote it myself several times in this very thread and others did too) BUT it was provided to the air groups very fast also, comparing with the overall industrial capacity of the country at that time which was raising (very late and) very fast, thanks to the war economy and the spreading of the involved factories (numerous of the facilities were still safe from the german advance).

So that this particular fighter is known to have been able to bring down about 150 german planes for 54, D.520 to the counterpart, and even if ever it was hugely overrated due to overclaim, it will still be an important number, so that this plane IS an iconic one of the BoF. Don't spread the idea that it was a very marginal plane in BoF.

Edited by Solmyr
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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, Solmyr said:

 

 

Guys, please, once again, we know the french campaign started with very few D.520 (I wrote it myself several times in this very thread and others did too) BUT it was provided to the air groups very fast also, comparing with the overall industrial capacity of the country at that time which was raising (very late and) very fast, thanks to the war economy and the spreading of the involved factories (numerous of the facilities were still safe from the german advance).

So that this particular fighter is known to have been able to bring down about 150 german planes for 54, D.520 to the counterpart, and even if ever it was hugely overrated due to overclaim, it will still be an important number, so that this plane IS an iconic one of the BoF. Don't spread the idea that it was a very marginal plane in BoF.

And, what's the problem with my post. It's just a precision. Did i make any comment? 

2 groups were undergoing transformation: GC I/3 and II/3. At the end of the campain, the II/7, III/3, III/6 were transform on D520. At the armistice, 3 other groups were undergoing transformation, GC III/7, III/9 and II/6. 

Yes it was iconic, and yes i would very please to fly with it. Tell i want to spread the idea it was marginal it s ure interpretation and it was really not my goal...

Edited by NN_Razor

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, NN_Razor said:

Yes it was iconic, and yes i would very please to fly with it. Tell i want to spread the idea it was marginal it s ure interpretation and it was really not my goal...

 

No problem mate, I just wanted to prevent a wrong idea from sitting in the "usually-likely-to-bash-frogg-eaters" heads..

Edited by Solmyr
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I also identified two basher....and i discover the "ignore user" tool. And i feel very better! 😄

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The devs rarely seem to go with just the most numerous planes in a battle, they always try to maintain a balance and add in fun aircraft, even if another type was more common. If they ever did BoF I'd almost guarantee the D.520

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30 minutes ago, Feathered_IV said:

I prefer this for sheer style

 

dewoitine.jpg

 

D501-GC1-2.JPG

 

C'est magnifique, mais...

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1 hour ago, Feathered_IV said:

I prefer this for sheer style

 

dewoitine.jpg

 

D501-GC1-2.JPG

Ohhhhh. Sheer style. I misread the "eer" in that. My bad. 😛

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10 hours ago, =621=Samikatz said:

The devs rarely seem to go with just the most numerous planes in a battle, they always try to maintain a balance and add in fun aircraft, even if another type was more common. If they ever did BoF I'd almost guarantee the D.520

It is sure that if the devs try to maintain a balance, we are going to have aircrafts who were not very present (powerfull aircrafts) because they were all in developpement and german aircrafts were the best compared to aircrafts like MS 406 and H 75.

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On 4/17/2019 at 2:14 AM, Feathered_IV said:

 

I prefer this for sheer style

 

 

I know it will never happen, but that would be so cool...

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1 hour ago, EAF19_Marsh said:

 

I know it will never happen, but that would be so cool...

Yes, me and a lot of people think like you. But I think that, a day, the developpers are goiung to do a game like this !

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I would definitely insta buy a BOF scenario. This said I am French so it is not suprising. 

 

However as some people pointed out, it may not be the most popular scenario commercially speaking so i don't keep my hopes up.

 

What i really would not understand is if they make the same commercial calculation and end up not including a late war eastern front campaign ( like a Bagration and Autumn 1944 campaign) with planes Yak3/La7/Yak9 variants and 109G6-AS/ G10/ 190 F8/A9/A6 for example with planes like ME-410/Yak 9U all metal as customs for example, or a Soviet Bomber like Tu-2 or something more exotic like a Do-335 . There are so many planes to choose from really. 

 

I would not understand it because it started as an eastern front simulation so it would be nice to have the whole war covered. Whereas in the case of BOF it would be a switch away from their plans post BOBP ( apparently they would like the Pacific theater which is ambitious and exciting too) and would somewhat walk on Cliff of Dover's toes. So yeah i would understand why BOF is low on their priority right now but really hope they will finish the job on the GPW in the eastern front.  

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I too would really like to see end of war SU planes covered better.  And heavy bombers added.

Also I havent seen some planes that could be AI only that are pretty important like FW189, Fiesler Storch etc.

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I'm just thinking, since we're getting the BoBP map, maybe commercially it would be worth a test to create a single BoF fighter aircraft, call it special, call it bonus, that is competitive with a Bf109E, Bf110E, Ju88, Ju87, Ju52, - even if these are not 100% the proper versions. It would bring some fun for offline flying / coop scenarios, and could be used to gauge interest in early / less popular air battles.

 

I hope the Ju52 wasn't a disaster, and a single engined fighter should not be more work, and potentially be at least as appealing... So maybe that's a way to get a piece of BoF?

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15 hours ago, JtD said:

I'm just thinking, since we're getting the BoBP map, maybe commercially it would be worth a test to create a single BoF fighter aircraft, call it special, call it bonus, that is competitive with a Bf109E, Bf110E, Ju88, Ju87, Ju52, - even if these are not 100% the proper versions. It would bring some fun for offline flying / coop scenarios, and could be used to gauge interest in early / less popular air battles.

 

I hope the Ju52 wasn't a disaster, and a single engined fighter should not be more work, and potentially be at least as appealing... So maybe that's a way to get a piece of BoF?

 

It's an interesting idea..

Still I don't get why people seem likely to think a BoF would not be good commercially wise. It just doesn't make sense to me, for the reasons I explained earlier in this thread. I just don't get that.

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7 hours ago, Solmyr said:

Still I don't get why people seem likely to think a BoF would not be good commercially wise.

Yeah I don't get it either. How come making game more content rich would be a financial failure. Seems like only self-proclaimed forum police/business analysts know😀

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I hope we get the the Pacific first, if that is a major hit it as well as BoBp we might see something like BoF become a reality(I hope). Going with France might be a bit more of a gamble than let's say just going to the Pacific. 

 

I think a French and early BoB scenario would be an awsome edition the the franchise. 

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The major problem in French planes in ww2 has to do with the fact that their use was primarily limited to one short battle. 

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9 hours ago, Venturi said:

The major problem in French planes in ww2 has to do with the fact that their use was primarily limited to one short battle. 

...against the Allies.

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12 hours ago, -LUCKY-ThanksSkeletor said:

I hope we get the the Pacific first, if that is a major hit it as well as BoBp we might see something like BoF become a reality(I hope). Going with France might be a bit more of a gamble than let's say just going to the Pacific. 

 

I think a French and early BoB scenario would be an awsome edition the the franchise. 

 

Well, you don’t need to just depend on hope. The Tobruk update for CloD will include the D.520 and some more exciting stuff 😄

 

And yeah, I’m also hoping for a Pacific addition for GBS. IIRC the devs were going to do Midway, but couldn’t find enough data on the Japanese planes. Hopefully our resident IJN experts can help with that.

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3 hours ago, ZachariasX said:

...against the Allies.

 

Really, what's the point of such a disrespectful joke towards the french/belgian/dutch crews who have been lawndarted and sacrificed against the german Flak by their commanders, fought 6 weeks against experienced pilots riding the best fighter available at that time over some demoralized invaded countries ?

 

Then if you really talk about the french planes that have been requisitionned after the BoF/Benelux, what's the point when we're talking about BoF ?

Edited by Solmyr
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4 hours ago, Solmyr said:

Really, what's the point of such a disrespectful joke towards the french/belgian/dutch crews who have been lawndarted and sacrificed against the german Flak by their commanders, fought 6 weeks against experienced pilots riding the best fighter available at that time over some demoralized invaded countries ?

I admit it was a mean comment, but it was less a reference for the the battle of France, but for almost everything that came after that. It is the hard earned bottom line. Thus it is neither a joke or disrespectful as it is what happened. But it shows the courage of 20’000 frenchmen who kept on fighting, despite the odds (98% casualty rate and death sentence at home). Throughout the theaters of war, some French indeed fought much longer against the Allies (~4 years) than against Germany (46 days). That the French in 1940 were were that much inferior in fighting men or material to the Germans is just a common as well as a much disputed claim that you are just making.

 

Edit: Don‘t takes this as the „unbeaten air force“ gospel, but much rather that others did more with way less at hand.

 

But for some, it might indeed be convenient filing the episode in that drawer. As for Belgians and Dutch, I have no idea why you are bringing them up in that context.

 

Maybe that also gives you an idea why selling a game about that might not be first choice, as the whole topic remains somehow controversial even in its home market.

 

Still, I think those 46 days would make for a great add-on. The planes would serve well in North Africa maps too. For team blue.

Edited by ZachariasX
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57 minutes ago, ZachariasX said:

Throughout the theaters of war, some French indeed fought much longer against the Allies (~4 years) than against Germany (46 days)

 

I have no knowledge about french pilots/crews who did fight for germans, if you have some informations/sources I'd be happy to learn more. To me there were only french pilots/crews who didn't leave Vichy regime (plenty of those of course) and therefore were working for Vichy but not for the germans. Then when germans invaded the free zone of Vichy regime, maybe some did that ? But if you talk about north Africa and so on it was another story : Vichy regime had to be considered as a neutral, post-defeated country, and so, even if I'm glad that the Allies did what had to be done, it was a violation of the disputable legitimacy of it. There sits all the complexity of such a situation. But french pilots/crews, at that very specific time, weren't fighting for the germans, they were fighting against anyone willing to take the control of their country's colonies.

 

57 minutes ago, ZachariasX said:

That the French in 1940 were were that much inferior in fighting men or material to the Germans is just a common as well as a much disputed claim that you are just making. But for some, it might indeed be convenient filing the episode in that drawer.

 

Here I'm not 100% sure you're still talking about air warfare, but I didn't say that. I just said the germans had the best fighter worlwide available in combat at that time. Then IMO there were 2 real counterparts about to come, the D.520 and the Spit. But the former came late and the latter entered production that late and was in a so low number that it didn't fight above french territory during BoF because british didn't want to take part of the BoF with their gem (apart from some covering the Dunkirk Dynamo operation I believe ?)

What can mostly be said is that the french pilots/crews were used in a very bad way by their commanders. That and numerous problems that french didn't manage to deal with. Still they performed quite well, even if the "1000 kills myth" is a... myth, they did lowered the german potential quite a bit.

But I agree that the MS.406 wasn't that bad comparing in the 109, still it was fairly inferior.

 

57 minutes ago, ZachariasX said:

As for Belgians and Dutch, I have no idea why you are bringing them up in that context.

 

Because they were in the same boat, facing a tremendous force.

 

57 minutes ago, ZachariasX said:

Still, I think those 46 days would make for a great add-on. The planes would serve well in North Africa maps too.

 

Then we agree overall. :)

Edited by Solmyr

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5 minutes ago, Solmyr said:

What can mostly be said is that the french pilots/crews were used in a very bad way by their commanders. That and numerous problems that french didn't manage to deal with. Still they performed quite well, even if the "1000 kills myth" is a... myth, they did lowered the german potential quite a bit.

Yes, this, exactly.

 

Reading your comments, we‘re essentially in agreement. I think it would make for a good add-on, and the planes would be good for further maps.

 

It‘s just too bad that the course of history is not always just to the lone individual in his cockpit.

 

 

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