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7./SchG2_v*Athlon

Tanks chain too weak in MP

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Posted (edited)

In many hours in MP I have the realization that the chains are too easy to destroy.
A shot of chains away. That goes with all the grenades!
Sherman, Pz III M, KV-1s, Tiger H1, Pz III L, T34 STZ.

There are many players who drive around the Tigers in a T34, M4A2, KV-1s, 30 minutes and more and then lose the chains of AI, plane or clear trees.

Even the slow Pz III or Tiger after 30 minutes approach shortly before the flag chain away.
The AI fires without sight through forests houses hills, chain away.
The server where tanks are limited.

In Arcate Server where tanks are unlimited and the flag is 5 minutes away, it does not matter.

 

Chains must endure more 3 Direct hits should take chains to be destroyed.

The missions peasants should decide for themselves whether it costs 1 minute (arcade) or 5 minutes or more for a chain repair time.

Another idea about chains repair time.
The repair should be interrupted when firing with the gun MG, cannon and then repair the chains again from the beginning.

 

It would be important in the next update chain free repairs.

 

 

Excuse my English is bad.

Edited by 7./SchG2_v*Athlon
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I presume you mean the tracks and not the drive chain.
Well repairing tracks would take in reality between 10 minutes to 60+ minutes depending on the terrain and the damage and if the tank even has spares, and if the suspension or roadwheels are damaged: you cant repair it and have to be towed back. So I prefer the game has no track repairs, have to do what most tankers did: wait for the recovery tanks to come or abandon the tank.

But I dislike the anti tank guns can shot through the woods and barely see my tank but they shot round after round into my tank and cant see where they are firing from, heck in open terrain its in most cases impossible to see the muzzle fire.

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No. Tracks are weak-spots and were vulnerable (as far as I know, even to terrain in some cases).
What is the point of asking for that? It is like asking to make planes more durable to withstand more cannon hits or to remove stall mechanism to make them fly more comfortably. That really sounds like an another game.

The problem would be the AI shooting from impossible position, but that is not easy to fix (probably save to say when it is connected to AI). Still, it is better to have this flaw and hope for an improvement than bending realism that way.

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I'm not sure if there should be a repair mechanic like in WarThunder. Repairing damaged tracks is insanely hard labour in real life, let alone during the time peroid. You don't just hop off the tank, pull the track with your bare hands and glue it back. It can take hours and sometimes its not even possible without recovery vehicles. The damaged track can be broken into bits, part of it may have been buried, or got stuck under the tank.

 

It would not be viable to repair a track with bare hands and scarce spare parts on the tank considering the timer of the rounds is around 3 hours unless the damage was very minor.

 

AI shooting without LOS should be fixed.

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Agreed track repair is not doable in a realistic setting. Besides, the crew is very vulnerable during that lengthy and arduous procedure. 


 

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On 4/9/2019 at 3:33 PM, Fliegel said:

No. Tracks are weak-spots and were vulnerable (as far as I know, even to terrain in some cases).
What is the point of asking for that? It is like asking to make planes more durable to withstand more cannon hits or to remove stall mechanism to make them fly more comfortably. That really sounds like an another game.

The problem would be the AI shooting from impossible position, but that is not easy to fix (probably save to say when it is connected to AI). Still, it is better to have this flaw and hope for an improvement than bending realism that way.

 

I agree with this point, some balancing is needed, but repair will get you going, it should not take 10 minutes for a normal MP session, however the timer should be variable so that servers who lean more to 100% realism can adjust it. If we get mines in the game too, it will stop you if you run into one so it’s just a part of the game. Otherwise it will only be a war of tanks copy and I really don’t want that. 

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Posted (edited)

well, i know most people are hardcore simmers, but shouldnt the tank sim be a bit more about gameplay?

 

To be honest, if track repairs wont exist i think the tank mode will be very unrealistic.

 

lets say the game is finished, im driving around in my light tank or maybe a AA vehicle and i spot a 2-3 heavy tanks and decide to just shoot at the vehicles tracks and since i know they are immobilized i can just cruise around them stay out of theyre sight and eventually they will get tired of waiting for engagements with other tanks and decide to respawn. granting me 2-3 heavy vehicle kills.

 

now speaking of respawning, if you want to make it a sim, you should either have to wait for a towing vehicle to take you back to base to grab a new tank or you have to destroy your tank and walk back to base.

 

I know realism should be kept high and im in big favor of that but i really think there should be some concessions made otherwise realism will just be a suffering. and you guys all know that theres always gonna be players that will go for cheap kills like that.

 

getting detracked in a bad spot will always result in the player respawning because who wants to sit in a tank an entire match and not being able to do anything and cheer at the end of the match i got 0 kills but i did not die in combat i was just merely detracked!

Edited by jann3man

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Of course the other passion-killer is the 'gunner killed' result. Should you be allowed a new crew member if you return to a friendly tank base? 

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Its a tank simulator game so all these ideas you present make it sound more and more arcadish and forgiving to ones mistakes in combat, if the enemy have the time and is able to shot your tracks you have done something very wrong already.


I know realism should be kept high and im in big favor of that but i really think there should be some concessions made otherwise realism will just be a suffering.

Ehm that goes against what you said: Realism will suffer if we start making it unrealistic with for example: repairing tracks in a few minutes, in real life one cant do that so the realism should be that you cant in the game either. We have games like warthunder or even worse: world of tanks for those who want to drive around in their tanks and shot and do impossible things, I rather play this simulator than that.

But some more realistic ideas as I see your point: Well once one is detracked you can always spot for your friendly tankers, most enemies seem to ignore a detracked Panzer III so I managed to in one game tell my tiger players where the T-34s were coming from and taking them out.
Also would be a good idea to have towing/repair tanks like bergenpanther or such which could tow one and maybe repair one after 30-50 minutes or so, any shorter than that and it would become unrealistic way too much.
Also about the one get the tank kill when one abandon the tank: One should only get a tank kill if you actually kill it, if the tanker abandons the tank and there is no combat nearby then the player who detracked him/her shouldnt get any kill. That problem is then solved.

 

Of course the other passion-killer is the 'gunner killed' result. Should you be allowed a new crew member if you return to a friendly tank base? 

I would say no as that would be like in real life: You abort the task you had and have to start a new sortie, get a new crew together and most likely some new orders updated on how the battle is going, so it would be like starting a new sortie.

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Why not just have these be server settings? Then you can choose to play on the servers that meet your desired realism settings.

 

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Posted (edited)

Create a new tank. !
This is realism?

The best for real tank Simer, goes from the server.
if you are killed.

In real life, we are 24 hours in the tank.
When we play public MP it is always a time compression.
this is a game.

Edited by 7./SchG2_v*Athlon

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Posted (edited)

Tracks shouldn’t really suffer too much from battle damage.  It certainly should be possible to damage them but not excessively so.  If you’re taking on a tank with anything less than something that can kill it with then you’re a fool, if you shoot a tank, with something big enough to kill it, and damage a tank track the chances are it’s because you missed hitting the point you intended, more fool you.  Mines and Artillery  are much more effective manoeuvre killers, plus it puts the shits up the crews.  

 

  Crap design, poor maintenance, bad driving and difficult terrain ( read anything more challenging than a dry grass meadow) however are much more likely to pull off a track ( stay clear of wet muddy holes and forested areas with lots of fallen wood, trust me on this).  If a driver is incompetent, or inexperienced, and thinks that excessive turning is a good idea when driving over difficult terrain then he’s asking for trouble and the Tank Commander, as well as the rest of the crew (who will have to help him replace the track, usually in extremely [edited] conditions) will not forget any time soon.  If driving over crap terrain, choose a (straight) line of advance and do your best to stick to it, meanwhile pray and keep your buttocks tightly clenched.  Throwing a track because of poor Tankmanship should certainly be part of the game.

Edited by SYN_Haashashin
language

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On 4/23/2019 at 9:47 PM, thenorm said:

Why not just have these be server settings? Then you can choose to play on the servers that meet your desired realism settings.

 

 

yeah i agree, i really dislike things like markers where enemies are, but waiting 50 minutes for a track repair, while i can also choose to respawn instantly is also "too realistic" for me so server settings will sort this.

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When we encounter Tigers, we usually have APCR loaded. I try to get quite close, with the objective of hitting the side perpendicularly.

If I'm detected and the tiger has turned towards me, the chances of getting through the frontal armor are minimal. Hence I shoot at the track, i.e. straight onto it, onto the wheel basically. It makes perfect sense to me that a round that can penetrate the side armor, at the same range, can separate two links of the track, or completely destroy one. How is this unrealistic?

 

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Posted (edited)

Tiger commander here 🤓 had some good MP sessions this weekend, I don’t think the tracks are too weak, they seam to be ok? Of course some balancing is needed, however I would more look elsewhere than tracks. 

 

Damn trees can stop a big chunk of iron like a tiger, same goes with small houses and even other trucks? We should be able to drive right through them.

 

even a hay stack can stop you 😂

 

i also need more feedback from the crew, when I change ammo type, or if I mark a tank I need to know the distance. 

Edited by Slater

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On 4/15/2019 at 11:22 AM, Slater said:

 

I agree with this point, some balancing is needed, but repair will get you going, it should not take 10 minutes for a normal MP session, however the timer should be variable so that servers who lean more to 100% realism can adjust it. If we get mines in the game too, it will stop you if you run into one so it’s just a part of the game. Otherwise it will only be a war of tanks copy and I really don’t want that. 

 

I have to agree with this point of view. Currently in game it only takes a small indirect explosive to take apart a track. Such as AA fire from AI. Then once the track is off the tank is effectively done and its time to despawn. Which seems very unrealistic when there are additional tracks and parts directly on the tank for this purpose. This current form of "track off" feature, if compared to the plane damage model. Is equal to every small explosive hit into the wings resulting in a fire every single time. Thus loss of the aircraft after any little encounter with the enemy. There is no need to make tank crews suffer from an incomplete damage system in the game by touting "real life it takes hours to repair" excuses just because the tank crew system is currently incomplete. Aircraft in the game have many in "real life" it would take hours/days to repair/prepare aspects adjusted for game balance and fun. Tank crew players need the option to repair their tracks as that was a real thing conducted in the field even if it took hours/days. For the sake of fun and gameplay balance, tank crews need the option to repair once or twice if they encounter a track off situation. Ideally it would be best if tanks could share their repair parts/kits with one another while in the field as well. 


The game needs a good solid track repair system otherwise there is little point in hosting a realism server with limited tanks. Give the repair timer 3-5 minutes for game balance sake and the option of additional repair loadouts in the modification menu. Without a track repair system, like in the current state of the game, anything other than quick skirmish battles will leave tanks crews with the feeling of a gameplay experience equal to that of a glass filled half full. 

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Aircraft in the game have many in "real life" it would take hours/days to repair/prepare aspects adjusted for game balance and fun.

 

Such as...?

 

5 hours ago, Geronimo553 said:

Tank crew players need the option to repair their tracks as that was a real thing conducted in the field even if it took hours/days.

 

Not in the middle of an active / impending fight with the enemy, no. It wasn't the case in the war then, and it's still not the case today. 

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4 hours ago, LukeFF said:

 

Not in the middle of an active / impending fight with the enemy, no. It wasn't the case in the war then, and it's still not the case today. 

 

My thoughts exactly. 

 

I'm sure it's possible to find examples of "Tankies" repairing battle damage while under fire or in contact with the enemy, but it really is the absolute exception and shouldn't be considered as an example of "Typical" behavior.

 

That said "tracks" should really be pretty robust.  Mines are the biggest danger, possibly followed by artillery or simply just terrain, and only then by direct fire from enemy tanks and even then as much by accident rather than design. 

 

Even accidently throwing a track is probably EndEX for a Tank if it is in contact with the enemy and realisticlly you are looking at a minimum of 20 min, if you're lucky, but probably more like 40 min to an hour and even then you may need extra assistance from engineers.  You will also need most of the crew, outside and exposed, to help pull the ropes to drag the tracks back over the rollers, and they're bloomin heavy and you need to hope some B'stard hasn't nicked your hammer, for knocking in the pin, not forgetting to make sure you don't damage the threads on it, or you won't get the nut back on and the track will just seperate again as the pin works loose.  Did anyone ever say changing a track in the field was easy ?  You also need to consider that if the thrown track is as a result of enemy action then the crew will possibly also have injuries or be in shock and not operating at 100% capacity.

 

To sum up, yes I agree tank tracks should be robust enough to withstand pretty much all but a direct hit by anti -tank fire, given the present threats, but if a track does come adrift then, given the length of time of a typical mission, it's not realistic to expect it to be repaired in time to continue.

 

That said I could forsee a role for a support engineer vehicle, AKA "Company of Heroes", not exactingly realistic I grant you but it could help spice up game play.  In fact a "Company of Heroes", but first person, i.e "Tank Crew", wouldn't be such a bad notion either.

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44 minutes ago, HagarTheHorrible said:

Did anyone ever say changing a track in the field was easy ?

 

It is indeed a giant paint in the a** and one of the arguments against having an auto-loading mechanism - it's one less crewman present to assist in field repairs. 

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I’m glad there will be a repair/rearm function coming.  Unless a good balance of realism is struck, gameplay can become boring, irritating or impractical. 

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4 hours ago, Feathered_IV said:

I’m glad there will be a repair/rearm function coming.  Unless a good balance of realism is struck, gameplay can become boring, irritating or impractical. 

 

Exactly, and a good balance between realism/gameplay would be the repair system. However nothing of such a system has been announced by the devs. Which is the premise of this thread.

Perhaps a good balance for repairing your tank under rain of warfare would be. That the repair function cannot be used for a full minute if under fire. Such a system would prevent vehicles from repairing during combat. Which preserves the realism aspect.

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4 hours ago, Geronimo553 said:

 

Exactly, and a good balance between realism/gameplay would be the repair system. However nothing of such a system has been announced by the devs. Which is the premise of this thread.

 

Last week the devs said they were working on an r/r function for Tank Crew.  It’s in the Dev Diary.  

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29 minutes ago, Feathered_IV said:

 

Last week the devs said they were working on an r/r function for Tank Crew.  It’s in the Dev Diary.  


Hmm looks like the devs pulled a 180 turn. Seems they are going for the long requested refueling/repair areas or trucks approach. Which I find shocking because the concept was denied many many times in the past. Hopefully it turns out well enough. 
"In May-June we plan to implement repairing, refueling and rearming (which later will be also applicable for aircraft)."

Thanks for the news Feathered. I had not noticed the new dev diary post. 

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We counted 227 hits by AT rifles, 14 hits by 5.7cm AT guns and 11 hits by 7.62cm AT guns. The right suspension was heavily damaged by shelling. The connecting pieces for several running wheels were ruined, two torsion bars were broken. A rear idler wheel bearing was damaged.


Subsequently, it can be said that the armor on the Tiger had come up to our expectations.”

In spite of the damage, the Tiger was able to be driven for a further 60 km. The hits inflicted cracks to some weld seams. A fuel tank began leaking due to the heavy shocks. We noticed a number of impacts on the track links, which however did not particularly impair mobility.

 

9xAA8qj.png

Tiger I number ‘231’ belonging to Lt. Zabel of s.Pz.Abt. 503 was engaged in heavy combat near the town of Ssemernikovo, where it received no less than 252 hits from a variety of weapons including 7.62 cm and 4.5 cm Soviet anti-tank guns, whilst still remaining operational and later driving 60 km back to base. The damage to this vehicle is as much a testimony to the determination of the crews operating some Tigers, the intensity of much of the fighting, and the determination of the Soviet troops, as it is to the armor of the Tiger. The vehicle was later pictured in the manual for Tiger crews known as the Tigerfibel. Source Anderson

 

 

 



 

 

 



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Just like to give my thoughts, on track repair if it where to be introduced into the sim,it seems to me reading the posts, that one of the biggest issues is deciding the time frame, in which the repair should be carried out, surely when dealing with limited vehicle quantities. if the repair time was equal, to the time taken to re-spawn from original spawning point, and drive back to the place of original immobilisation this would be fair as no time advantage would be gained, you would of course be saving one of your vehicles but, you would also be at greater risk of being destroyed during the down time

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I'm brand new here, other than Steel Beasts, I've never (well, maybe back in the DOS days) owned or played a sim.  I've been a wargamer since the 60's, much preferring turn-based strategy to RT.  I'm currently d'loading Tank Crew while browsing this forum.  My thoughts are simple, if this is a simulation, then it should simulate real life conditions. 

 

This applies to everything... Broken track?  You're probably done for this session.  Dead gunner?  Another crew member would have to take over thereby slowing the process, otherwise, you're out.  Tanks running over trees or houses?  Some, maybe... sooner or later (probably sooner) you're gonna lose that track and you're out.  AI shooting without LOS?  This should never happen - If you can see me, I can see you (IF  I know where to look).

 

As I haven't tried Tank Crew yet, I don't know what to think.  I'm not expecting SB, but if this is an arcade game (in any way, shape or form), I've spent my only dollars with this franchise.  If I'm going to play a sim, it had better simulate.

 

Rake out

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1 hour ago, The_Real_Rake said:

I'm brand new here, other than Steel Beasts, I've never (well, maybe back in the DOS days) owned or played a sim.  I've been a wargamer since the 60's, much preferring turn-based strategy to RT.  I'm currently d'loading Tank Crew while browsing this forum.  My thoughts are simple, if this is a simulation, then it should simulate real life conditions. 

 

This applies to everything... Broken track?  You're probably done for this session.  Dead gunner?  Another crew member would have to take over thereby slowing the process, otherwise, you're out.  Tanks running over trees or houses?  Some, maybe... sooner or later (probably sooner) you're gonna lose that track and you're out.  AI shooting without LOS?  This should never happen - If you can see me, I can see you (IF  I know where to look).

 

As I haven't tried Tank Crew yet, I don't know what to think.  I'm not expecting SB, but if this is an arcade game (in any way, shape or form), I've spent my only dollars with this franchise.  If I'm going to play a sim, it had better simulate.

 

Rake out

All I'll say is please bear in mind that Tank Crew is in early access and many features are a work in progress or not currently implemented. Not to mention this is a flight simulation team delving into tank combat for the first time. So just remember this before condemning Tank Crew immediately as a bad sim.

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Just FYI, the dev diary post from May 17th said this

"Of course, this feature is linked to another - the possibility of field repair. It is also being worked on and most of it will be usable for aircraft as well. The crew will be able to repair the tank systems in the field as long as the tank is not completely destroyed. In addition, the mission designer can add special repair and ambulance tracks that accelerate this process both to single and multiplayer missions. Later, during Summer, we plan to add refueling and ammo trucks to replenish the fuel, oil, water and ammo reserves. And today we can show you the screens of the coming T-34-76 UVZ mod. 1943:"

So will be having mobile resupply trucks and field repairs. I'm greatly looking forward to these improvements. 

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Posted (edited)
Spoiler
On 5/13/2019 at 2:23 PM, 1./JG42flesch said:

We counted 227 hits by AT rifles, 14 hits by 5.7cm AT guns and 11 hits by 7.62cm AT guns. The right suspension was heavily damaged by shelling. The connecting pieces for several running wheels were ruined, two torsion bars were broken. A rear idler wheel bearing was damaged.


Subsequently, it can be said that the armor on the Tiger had come up to our expectations.”

In spite of the damage, the Tiger was able to be driven for a further 60 km. The hits inflicted cracks to some weld seams. A fuel tank began leaking due to the heavy shocks. We noticed a number of impacts on the track links, which however did not particularly impair mobility.

 

9xAA8qj.png

Tiger I number ‘231’ belonging to Lt. Zabel of s.Pz.Abt. 503 was engaged in heavy combat near the town of Ssemernikovo, where it received no less than 252 hits from a variety of weapons including 7.62 cm and 4.5 cm Soviet anti-tank guns, whilst still remaining operational and later driving 60 km back to base. The damage to this vehicle is as much a testimony to the determination of the crews operating some Tigers, the intensity of much of the fighting, and the determination of the Soviet troops, as it is to the armor of the Tiger. The vehicle was later pictured in the manual for Tiger crews known as the Tigerfibel. Source Anderson

 

 

 



 

 

 



 


Given this is well known example and used by propaganda, it was almost certainly not the rule.
Same as Tiger 131 taken out frontally by 6pdr (cca 57mm) gun.
 

Spoiler

Tiger131ricochet.JPG


Also, what it has to do with tracks and the fact that if they were hit by an AT gun they were likely to be damaged or destroyed making them (their nature to stay broken and being hard to repair) important factor when facing heavy tanks?

Edited by Fliegel

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Although the Tiger 131 wasnt knocked out by the 57mm gun nor penetrated, it jammed the turret ring and the beginner crew in it paniced and abandoned the tank as they thought it was penetrated and would start to fire at any moment.

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1 hour ago, judgedeath3 said:

Although the Tiger 131 wasnt knocked out by the 57mm gun nor penetrated, it jammed the turret ring and the beginner crew in it paniced and abandoned the tank as they thought it was penetrated and would start to fire at any moment.


Which underline my point about those examples:
 

On 6/5/2019 at 11:37 PM, Fliegel said:

it was almost certainly not the rule.


....

 

Another point is, jammed turret or destroyed tracks were sometimes all you could do to heavy tanks. And so people aim for those and try to put the tank out of the action that way.
It is not always about frontal armour.


P.S. No crew = tank taken out of the action. And crew did bail out probably sooner than in games (after first penetration, fire... etc.).

 

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standard rule: If your tank is hit and penetrated: bail out, only a few examples where crews remained in the tank after a hit in ww2 and to this day.

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