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Complaints about the Prokhorovka Map


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People can be as pedantic and apologetic as they wish. Kissing the toes of the developers that resembles this horrendous terrain provided. That's fine, that's on you. Do your thing and carry on. I won't hold that against you. And yes, it's still ugly.

 

For me however, this terrain was advertised and yes 'touted' as something special and far more detailed than 'anything seen before'. While that description was entirely vague, I don't think I'm alone with regards to what we got. I say that because it's horrendous to look at. The fact that there are player mods that provide hi-res veg sprites and terrain textures proves that the developers either don't care or are hampered by perceived engine constraints.

 

So given community contributions, what's your excuse?

 

Here ya go cats, chill out.

 

 

Edited by DetCord12B
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41 minutes ago, LukeFF said:

Dude, relax. At the risk of being repetitive, it's early access. There's likely more improvements coming to the map. 

 

 The map is done. It's done at it's core. Exactly how much more could it possibly be done at this point?

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2 hours ago, DetCord12B said:

People can be as pedantic and apologetic as they wish. Kissing the toes of the developers that resembles this horrendous terrain provided. That's fine, that's on you. Do your thing and carry on. I won't hold that against you. And yes, it's still ugly.

 

For me however, this terrain was advertised and yes 'touted' as something special and far more detailed than 'anything seen before'. While that description was entirely vague, I don't think I'm alone with regards to what we got. I say that because it's horrendous to look at. The fact that there are player mods that provide hi-res veg sprites and terrain textures proves that the developers either don't care or are hampered by perceived engine constraints.

You start out with a rude and insulting title calling the map "sub-par". Sub-par for what exactly? How many combined arms combat sims are there to compare? Which one is par for the course? The map is just as good as any other map they have released. It has all of the advertised features. It has the look and feel of the area it is intended to be modeling. The tank battle area is more detailed than 'anything seen before' in RoF or IL*2. 

 

The rendering problems you talk about are related to the game engine and have nothing to do with the map. Jason has stated many times that the rendering bubble being expanded will need a lot of work on optimization. It has been said many times that they have to balance their workload. Working on core engine issues takes time away from completing their main projects. Not completing projects reduces funding which reduces things they can work on even more. 

 

If you don't like the low resolution grass, download the hd grass mod. There is also an HD trees mod. There is a member HappyHaddock working on a more extensive vegetation mod as well as clouds and sky that looks pretty amazing. You have a lot of talent making mods and art as well. I am sure you could produce some great high res texture mods. I was actually thinking about diving into making higher res textures for the stock ground vehicles like trucks and trains and such.

 

Can the map be improved? Sure. Even from the air there are flickering issues with the white chalk textures and terrain textures around topographical features. Improvements are always welcome. One thing these guys really like to do is improve their product. The Stalingrad maps had a pretty significant texture overhaul recently. 

 

If you think the map is ugly that is perfectly fine. Everyone is entitled to an opinion. The issue I have is with the unnecessary insulting language and implication that the map was some sort of evil bait and switch scheme on the part of the developers. I know the age of the internet has made it seem acceptable to get on company websites and hurl insults to vent frustration when one feels they have been bamboozled. However, there is a difference in helpful constructive criticism and plain rudeness. You are complaining about engine limitations that have been complained about for years before. They are aware of it and it is on the very long list of stuff to work on when they have spare time for it. 

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I hope there's still time to improve the map further. I think Graviteam Tactics Mius Front is a good example on how to make wide open landscapes look interesting. Of course it's a completely different engine, but I had expected the detailed area of the Prokhorovka map would look somewhat similar. That's why I am slightly disappointed.

 

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gtmf_20160124_85676_006.jpg

 

Edited by Juri_JS
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From screenshots and information given I feel I get what I expected.
Comparing to other game genre is quite pointless. It is not about developers didn't know where to place a sunflower.
If there is another air and ground simulator with 19x23km ground map (and more times bigger aerial map) then it would make sense.

And talking about mods changing resolution of grass texture - I'm definitely not worried by that. If community could change it good... mods often take care of some minor issues of games and developers don't have infinite time for everything, the have to prioritize.

I'm mostly worried about the LOD change.
Often I seems to be on the "edge" and things disappear and appear with slightest move or whole forest changes to horizontal texture.
Or sometimes things change LODs even when I'm really close (which seems like a bug, I will try to reproduce it)

And that thing about grass not visible at certain distance makes you think you are hidden when you are not... No game I know draw grass at extreme ranges.
But I heard that ARMA push texture of the ground up when the grass is not drawn due to distance. So object are somehow sink into the ground but it is practical.
 

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5 hours ago, DetCord12B said:

 

 The map is done. It's done at it's core. Exactly how much more could it possibly be done at this point?

 

 

The Stalingrad map got a great update after it was released. It was okay as it was, but they really(!) improved the terrain quality after the fact. You have BOS, you must remember how much the map improved with just one update.

 

I'm sure the Proko map will get a touch up. 

Edited by CanadaOne
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On 3/20/2019 at 2:31 PM, -IRRE-Therion said:

 

Well, I didn't say I don't like it. As far as you move around in a tank and shoot whatever you want, all is fine and dandy. As I stated in my post for a tank battle map it is

good and acceptable.

 

But - did you take a plane and try to fly over it? F. ex. over Belgorod city? Altitude ~100 - 200 m? To me, absolutely unplayable for the moment when sitting in a plane.

Maybe you are blessed with a more powerful system compared to mine and you do not have any performance issues? Well, then congratulations.

 

Lucky you !

 

I didn't even bothered try flying on the map, just driving around in a tank was enough to take the fun out. I'm getting a rock solid 60fps in any open space within the high detail section of the map, but as soon as I get under 100-200m of the buildings (even a few houses at a crossroad) it drops down to 5-10fp when looking around or driving. If I keep the camera steady I get my 60fps back. 

 

And for some reason, the phenemenon does NOT get worse when driving in areas with a high concentration of buildings. 5 or 50 houses It is always more or less the same.

 

It feels like nothing at all is stored into the RAM and each time IL2 has to render an object in visual range, it loads it straight up from the hard drive. 

Never had such an issue on the other maps.

Edited by F/JG300_Gruber
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2 hours ago, F/JG300_Gruber said:

 

Lucky you !

 

I didn't even bothered try flying on the map, just driving around in a tank was enough to take the fun out. I'm getting a rock solid 60fps in any open space within the high detail section of the map, but as soon as I get under 100-200m of the buildings (even a few houses at a crossroad) it drops down to 5-10fp when looking around or driving. If I keep the camera steady I get my 60fps back. 

 

That's weird, because my rig is much less powerful than yours and with the graphics high but not maxed, I'm getting good FPS on the ground and in the air.

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I still wish they stuck to the skies personally. (My opinion don’t shoot me) BOX is industry leading in terms of ww2 combat flight simulation however is sub par in certain areas compared to existing tank sims. It just isn’t the right engine for it. :( 

Edited by Bullets
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I my opinion the map could be better but after modding IL2 1946 for years I've learned that you take what you don't like and you learn to mod it to your liking. There have been other maps here on this forum that have been given upgrades and this map may  well get the same. Either from the Dev's or from the modders.

I understand we paid money for this but to be fair, it's a early release and despite what some say, it could get an upgrade from the Dev's 

Until we know for sure, if you dont like it, dont use. 

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For me the map looks okay, we have seen screens before release and no surprises there as far as what we can actually see once in game.  Certainly there are issues with some textures looking more like a splat of colour rather than a decent rendition of terrain and the popping just gets on your nerves, for me the chalk rock is troublesome and the trees almost become airborne as they pop. 

 

Usually my FPS runs at around 60 on all maps, same here except it dipped to 40 when looking around as I flew over what I think is called Balaton and yet there is far less detail there than in other settlements on the existing maps, maybe the undulating ground and popping trees are responsible in that area.  The special area did not appear to look any different from the air as far as textures go, maybe the increased detail is in the destruction of the buildings rather than the landscape itself, not sure on that as I cannot remember what was promised.

 

To be fair this is early access so the testers cannot possibly recreate how things will run for every type of PC and its equipment set up like you can with a console game, hopefully the development team will take on board any issues reported and cure them before TC becomes a final release.

 

I took a run out in a Sherman, however, I do not think I was in the special area at the time so was taking more interest in the vehicle and its controls instead of the terrain around it.  To be honest in all other maps as well as this the detail of objects and buildings is good as it is, as said earlier maybe the increased detail is in the damage model and not necessarily the normal buildings, I will have to take another look as my first exploration was just to test each new toy.

 

There did not seem to be any paved airfields so my main thoughts while exploring it were that it would be a good map for using the F.C. aircraft until that map is available.

 

 

Wishing you all the very best, Pete. :biggrin:

Edited by Missionbug
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Mod to your heart's content, but be aware that there will always be "that guy" that has all his graphic settings turned all the way down with details set at 0 that will see you no matter where you hide and blap you from long range, and with your very high end visuals, you will never know what hit you.

 

This issue, which I recently became aware of, is forcing me to rethink buying Tank Commander.  I don't want to be limited to single player, and even then, is it a certainty that the AI cannot see through the foliage? 

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Well, " That Guy " will always be here somewhere. Nothing you can do but try to find a group of decent guys to go online with.

 

  I'm not taking sides or diminishing anyone's opinions but I still have to say that TC and all the rest are WIP's no matter how you look at it. Until the DEV's say it's done then we just have to wait for further updates or hope that someone adds some mods. 

 

As far as single player, you can join a group online in TC. 

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2 hours ago, BlitzPig_EL said:

I don't want to be limited to single player, and even then, is it a certainty that the AI cannot see through the foliage? 

 

What are you talking about? Just yesterday that I check in on a tank server set up as a 'deathmatch'. There were 6 German and 6 Russian live players. 

 

Buy, don't buy but rest assured, Tank Crew is going to keep getting better and better. I'm sure of it and you will probably end up purchasing it.  :salute:

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5 hours ago, BlitzPig_EL said:

Mod to your heart's content, but be aware that there will always be "that guy" that has all his graphic settings turned all the way down with details set at 0 that will see you no matter where you hide and blap you from long range, and with your very high end visuals, you will never know what hit you.

 

This issue, which I recently became aware of, is forcing me to rethink buying Tank Commander.  I don't want to be limited to single player, and even then, is it a certainty that the AI cannot see through the foliage? 

When I discovered this was being done in War Thunder tank-play is when I binned that game. It was free anyway and I never bought anything for it, so no loss.

It's an issue in any FPS type game, even the highly realistic ArmA. How many times I thought my sniper ass was hidden in stuff, only to learn I was on a billiard table. Puh.

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5 hours ago, Thad said:

 

What are you talking about? Just yesterday that I check in on a tank server set up as a 'deathmatch'. There were 6 German and 6 Russian live players. 

 

He’s talking about the ‘grass’ value in the startup.cfg. When it’s set to 0, and with the other in-game graphics settings set to their lowest values, objects stick out in plain sight. One is at a disadvantage if he has details set to high/ultra settings as the vegetation obscures the sight. 

Knowing that this can be applied online is a turn off to others. 

Edited by BP_Lizard
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8 hours ago, BlitzPig_EL said:

Mod to your heart's content, but be aware that there will always be "that guy" that has all his graphic settings turned all the way down with details set at 0....

 

We just have to fight fire with fire, EL. 

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I had a strange issue with the map last night trying out a quick mission with aircraft, I could not get it to load until I had loaded a quick mission on one of the other maps first.:huh:

 

If starting a quick mission after loading the game it would allow me to select the map and aircraft then just hang until I exited the game, have any of you noticed this behaviour?

 

I know it is a tank map but the intention was to be able to use it for aircraft as well so is what I experienced normal for this map?

 

Wishing you all the very best, Pete.:biggrin:

Edited by Missionbug
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On 3/23/2019 at 6:34 AM, DetCord12B said:

People can be as pedantic and apologetic as they wish. Kissing the toes of the developers that resembles this horrendous terrain provided. That's fine, that's on you. Do your thing and carry on. I won't hold that against you. And yes, it's still ugly.

 

So you create a complaint thread and insult people when you notice not everybody is going to jump on your little bandwagon? Someone has a chip on his shoulders alright.

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2 hours ago, Missionbug said:

I had a strange issue with the map last night trying out a quick mission with aircraft, I could not get it to load until I had loaded a quick mission on one of the other maps first.:huh:

 

If starting a quick mission after loading the game it would allow me to select the map and aircraft then just hang until I exited the game, have any of you noticed this behaviour?

 

I know it is a tank map but the intention was to be able to use it for aircraft as well so is what I experienced normal for this map?

 

Wishing you all the very best, Pete.:biggrin:

 

I experience the very same only with the new Prokhorovka map, but with the difference that I wait (a little more patiently than you? ;)) very long until the mission loads

and I can finally click on the START button. It takes really much longer than any other map to load and yes, one might think "game over" and restarts the game.

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3 hours ago, -IRRE-Therion said:

 

I experience the very same only with the new Prokhorovka map, but with the difference that I wait (a little more patiently than you? ;)) very long until the mission loads

and I can finally click on the START button. It takes really much longer than any other map to load and yes, one might think "game over" and restarts the game.

 

 

Okay, thank you very much for that, really appreciated.:drinks:

 

I waited what seemed to be forever looking at a Black screen, the task manager indicated that the game was not responding so that is when I exited and started up again and tried a new map to see if all was well with the game, it seemed to be as that time the quick mission on another map loaded up okay.

 

I then tried the tank map again and it loaded fairly quickly and I flew a three on three situation and all was good apart from the popping previously reported.

 

Anyway, that looks how things are with slow loading for that map so at least I now know there is nothing wrong with my game.;)

 

 

Wishing you all the very best, Pete.:biggrin:

Edited by Missionbug
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the vegetation not rendering at a distance or when the settings are low is a real issue though.

same happened with arma III, where you would be there amongs tall grass in your ghillie suit under a bush 

and just get insta killed because from far away you were sticking out like a sore thumb. Guy in a gilly suit

on a barren hill without grass or bush. This issue and in vr stuff only rendering where the turret is facing

is making me wait a bit before plungeing in. 

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I flew on this map in mp for the first time today.  I was at about 1000 to 2000 meters.  The forest squares were flickering badly and the white rock areas would come and go even though I was right over them.  I also received stutters/hesitations over the tank area. 

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12 minutes ago, VBF-12_Stick-95 said:

I flew on this map in mp for the first time today.  I was at about 1000 to 2000 meters.  The forest squares were flickering badly and the white rock areas would come and go even though I was right over them.  I also received stutters/hesitations over the tank area. 

 

Did some tests yesterday evening and observed the same in different altitudes, although stutters above 1000 m is far less noticeable.

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Finally, a big map which graphic details are adaptable to the power of the system used. Hence, being reachable and playable to more gamers.

It is also close to reality.

I really don't regret the purchase of Tank Crew because IL-2 has historically proved again and again that it improves its products to fulfill its promise.

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the vegetation not rendering at a distance or when the settings are low is a real issue though.

let's say a low end pc does not render the trees where your tank is hiding behind trees.

a big map which graphic details are adaptable to the power of the system used indeed.

 

 

minimum settings shud be enforced and with powerful anti cheat software.

 

Edited by Henree
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On 3/22/2019 at 3:11 PM, unreasonable said:

The best simulation of ground combat will always be SP anyway, for the simple reason that people in MP are not shot for disobeying orders, unfortunately.

 

Well, it depends. Don't follow WT or WoT. It can be an interesting MP if you play ad team member (clan member).

Right, you can "walk throught map"... but not if you can be a free frag for AI, or have limited fuel or ammo.

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On 3/24/2019 at 5:48 AM, Mac_Messer said:

So you create a complaint thread and insult people when you notice not everybody is going to jump on your little bandwagon? Someone has a chip on his shoulders alright.

 

Were you or anyone else personally targeted or singled out? Oh, nope, not at all? Right. And where exactly are the supposed insults? Please point them out with regards to who was and was not targeted. Moot.

 

For a game/sim component (term loosely given the awful Pen/PvR values) that exists within the confines of the AFV side of the house for TC, everything about this environment is fairly awful. It's a copy/paste of ugly, low-res, low-poly flora and terrain assets meant for the FS side of the house. That works great if you're flying above it, not so much down on the ground. People can easily forgive a haphazard WIP terrain but the terrain isn't WIP anymore, it's done. 

 

So instead of rambling on, I'll just paste this comment from Reddit with regards to TC. One I think is spot on.

 

Quote

Focusing on the terrain, the one thing that should pull you into the world, immerse you into an environment and plant its hooks in you is utterly disappointing. The textures are all low resolution and the models and sprites rather terrible. I mean I can see and count the polys on the trees and the terrain. That's unacceptable, especially for a game and map that's been in development as long as this one.

With these aforementioned problems, this just isn't something I'd recommend to anyone in its current state. No matter how hardcore of an armorhead you might be.

Now, this isn't to say it won't improve over time, even drastically. Maybe they'll redesign, fix, improve and beautify the flora and terrain. I don't know. But given how lackadaisical the Prokhorovka map is to begin with I wouldn't hold my breath.

 

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On 3/27/2019 at 8:18 PM, -IRRE-Therion said:

 

Did some tests yesterday evening and observed the same in different altitudes, although stutters above 1000 m is far less noticeable.

Therion, Obélix has the same issue on that map, he didn't have with others. I don't have any problem and we have the same PC except that he has a Geforce 970 with 4 GB, and me i have a 1080 Ti with 11 GB. The Prokhorovka map takes more memory on the graphic card. Most of the time, i  can see that my graphic card use almost 5 GB.

 

We change his graphic setting to minimise the problem, and he has some problem when he flies at a very low altitude with many vehicles.

 

If you want we can talk about that on teamspeak.

 

The graphics setting you use on all other map has to be lower on the Prokhorovka map, to decrease the graphic card memory used .

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2 hours ago, Habu said:

Therion, Obélix has the same issue on that map, he didn't have with others. I don't have any problem and we have the same PC except that he has a Geforce 970 with 4 GB, and me i have a 1080 Ti with 11 GB. The Prokhorovka map takes more memory on the graphic card. Most of the time, i  can see that my graphic card use almost 5 GB.

 

We change his graphic setting to minimise the problem, and he has some problem when he flies at a very low altitude with many vehicles.

 

If you want we can talk about that on teamspeak.

 

The graphics setting you use on all other map has to be lower on the Prokhorovka map, to decrease the graphic card memory used .

 

Hi Habu,

 

thank you for your suggestion - I know that my hardware has some limits and yes, I have the same graphic card like Obélix, but I don't push my graphic card too hard

in the NvCP. I eventually modified some settings in the NvCP and graphic settings in game to minimize the issues I have encountered on the Prokhorovka map and

now I can live with it somehow, because I'm aware of the purpose of this map and that said, I do not have any problems when driving a tank.

 

Flying on this map is nice, but I do not set any priority on this, because all other maps are very well flyable with my settings and it still looks very good, also performance

wise. I originally bought TC because of tank warfare, so flying on this map is not really my main objective.

 

I just wanted to share the observations I made with others here on the forum - it wasn't my intention to criticize the map itself, only that I was a little bit disappointed

by the towns and villages shown on the map if I compare them with all the maps we already have.

 

Anyway, thank you for your support and I would be happy to fly with you (Phoenix?) and Obélix some day like we did last year.

 

Cheers... et à la prochaine

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19 minutes ago, -IRRE-Therion said:

I just wanted to share the observations I made with others here on the forum - it wasn't my intention to criticize the map itself, only that I was a little bit disappointed

by the towns and villages shown on the map if I compare them with all the maps we already have.

I didn't take your post as a critic. 😉

 

Flying on that map could be interesting when you do a combined operation between ground and aerial forces.

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11 hours ago, DetCord12B said:

People can easily forgive a haphazard WIP terrain but the terrain isn't WIP anymore, it's done. 

 

As long as the game is still in early access, it technically still a WIP. Considering that improvements have been made to the other maps, some long after release, it's not exactly accurate to say that it's done at this point.

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On 3/30/2019 at 10:24 AM, LukeFF said:

 

As long as the game is still in early access, it technically still a WIP. Considering that improvements have been made to the other maps, some long after release, it's not exactly accurate to say that it's done at this point.

I flew over the map to check about the issues mentioned. It was more fluid fun than a headache. It was recorded from a seven years old PC on Win 7. Check it out by yourself.
 

 

Edited by Ze-GunnyHighway
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On 3/30/2019 at 6:24 PM, LukeFF said:

 

As long as the game is still in early access, it technically still a WIP. Considering that improvements have been made to the other maps, some long after release, it's not exactly accurate to say that it's done at this point.

Some people just like to become drama queens when they don't get exactly what they want...

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DetCord12B,

 

I to also  think that the map appears a little off with dull pastel colours and is just boring to the extent where it just feels very sterile! 

 

However, perhaps with the addition of tank traps, trenches and tank tracks criss-crossing across the fields, it might hopefully add some realism into the battle.  Indeed, with the addition of hidden mine fields or other fortifications dotted around, might add that realism factor that perhaps is currently missing.   The other night, one of the tank servers had low cloud and rain effects (nice atmospheric effects) that really changed the whole feeling of the game and it actually become very immersive and targets weren't visible from longer ranges. 

 

Therefore, the map has slowly grown on me and indeed one of the features that I like most is the undulating terrain and how you can hide in the shallows or behind some hills, although the colour of the fields doesn't feel right.  Therefore, to those players who just charge down the roads, I would strongly recommend that you get off the roads and explore the terrain because it does get better, I promise.  I'm very hopeful, that with all, or some of these effects as mentioned above being added, we perhaps might feel like we are engaged in a "do or die" tank battle. 

 

Currently in game, we usually have the same players doing the same things in that one side will roll up to the objectives in their Tiger's whilst taking everything out at range with very little opposition or the other side racing down the road in their T-34's to the flag and killing everything that spawns in.  However, with the addition of the rest of the tanks, everything mentioned above and some colour "tweaking", it might start to feel like a real tank battle and not just a Tiger versus T-34 clash. 

 

 I'm going to remain on the fence until the game is officially released, however, I'm hopeful that our comments will not go unnoticed.  Therefore, let's keep the honest comments flowing, good and bad, but let's try and remain focused on assisting the Devs in producing a finished article that we we are all craving after! 

 

Regards 

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It's a good thing that legitimate points are raised... (good and bad) otherwise the developers won't know if things need improving.

Often, when a patch or game mode is introduced it's the community that brings up points or problems that were missed in testing, or things they had not even thought about.

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