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Combat Box by Red Flight


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4 hours ago, JG300_Faucon said:

To mission maker(s): On Closing of the Ruhr pocket map, seems there is no NDB on Ettinghausen AF. 

Hey @JG300_Faucon, I took a look at Ettinghausen AF, and the reason there's no NDB, or landing fires for that matter, is because it's not an airfield you're supposed to land at. Instead, it's an objective for the map. (Allies are supposed to destroy it.) See the image below:

 

image.thumb.png.9e5f4c4d9defb5384e113419e2530b7b.png

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47 minutes ago, III/JG52_Al-Azraq said:

 

Yes please! I hope it gets disabled as well so we start using our plane's instruments more.

There's been nothing stopping you turning the HUD off now and for the past 4 years, you know? 

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55 minutes ago, Sketch said:

Hey @JG300_Faucon, I took a look at Ettinghausen AF, and the reason there's no NDB, or landing fires for that matter, is because it's not an airfield you're supposed to land at. Instead, it's an objective for the map. (Allies are supposed to destroy it.) See the image below:

 

image.thumb.png.9e5f4c4d9defb5384e113419e2530b7b.png

 

Actually it's been converted into a player airfield, just since last night, and I forgot to add an NDB. Fixed now, thanks for the bug report @JG300_Faucon

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4 hours ago, 71st_AH_Barnacles said:

There's been nothing stopping you turning the HUD off now and for the past 4 years, you know? 

I would argue, the problem is there's nothing stopping you from turning it on.

 

Maybe this is a better place to discuss why: 

 

Edited by driftaholic
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How does being detected by ground unit works? I'm wondering if actions can be taken by the player to delay the detection (flying very low/ above the weather etc...)

 

Not saying the current system shall be changed.

 

I heard other players mention that flying very low would delay detection and that got me curious.

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2 hours ago, Birdman said:

How does being detected by ground unit works? I'm wondering if actions can be taken by the player to delay the detection (flying very low/ above the weather etc...)

 

Not saying the current system shall be changed.

 

I heard other players mention that flying very low would delay detection and that got me curious.

 

There's two things, actually maybe 3, going on mechanically on the server:

  • All targets have a "check zone" around them, usually 6-10km in diameter depending on the target type. If there are enemy planes within this zone, the defence units are activated, otherwise they are deactivated to save server resources.
  • All AAA have an "attack area" inside which they try to engage enemies. Depending on the gun type, this can be as little as 2.5km (small machine guns), 4km (large caliber tracer guns), or up to 10km ("puffy" heavy flak). If an enemy is outside that range, the gun won't engage.
  • If AAA is active, *and* an enemy plane is inside, the gun *may* engage, depending on a host of factors which are largely witchcraft and voodoo. If the gun was previously asleep, it takes a while for the personnel to decide to shoot. If the gun is low skill, it will take longer to track and reload between volleys. If there are multiple enemy contacts, the gun needs to pick one.

So to answer your question, there is nothing the player can do (at least on Combat Box) to avoid detection or the gun switching on, *but* if you're coming in fast and the gun is asleep it might not fire before you pickle your bombs, and if you're moving fast enough it might not be able to physically track you to shoot. If you have wingmen, that's more targets for the guns to consider, and they might track your wingman and not you. Guns can't fire through trees or other obstacles, so if you come in fast, drop bombs, stay fast and duck under a tree line, you're good.

 

Requiem has some excellent ground attack videos where he demonstrates good attack procedure, minimizing exposure to AA. Highly recommended.

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On 5/16/2020 at 7:05 PM, driftaholic said:

I would like to say, I hope that Combat Box will disable techno-chat. I will definitely be spending my time on severs with this disabled. 

Oh God no, just turn it off for yourself. Last thing anyone needs is their engine blowing because the throttle was just barely enough to start the magic engine timer. This is a silly thing to want when you can just adjust it on your own 

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13 hours ago, Birdman said:

How does being detected by ground unit works? I'm wondering if actions can be taken by the player to delay the detection (flying very low/ above the weather etc...)

 

Not saying the current system shall be changed.

 

I heard other players mention that flying very low would delay detection and that got me curious.

In my experience, as attacker or as fighter covering a target, AAA will never hit you if you dive fast and stay low after the drop... You don't need neither to move to much to escape, maybe just a little of "dolphin", or up and down but always keeping your speed really high. 

 

So on the first dive probably you will drop before AAA start to shoot at you.

(Except than if it was always firing to somebody else)

 

For second or third dive (or if you do the first one with a ju87 Stuka) it's a different story. Medium flak is usually enough to shoot down at least one plane per attack. 

Best solution is have an escort fighter than can drag AAA right before your attack, or better that fire to them right after your first dive.

 

He also don't need to destroy it, but if he fire close enough enemy soldier will run away screaming, so they will not fire for some minutes..

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4 hours ago, -332FG-Jack_ said:

Oh God no, just turn it off for yourself. Last thing anyone needs is their engine blowing because the throttle was just barely enough to start the magic engine timer. This is a silly thing to want when you can just adjust it on your own 

I disagree with flying the aircraft at 84% because 85% is emergency power. The plane doesn't magically start a countdown unless you go above specifications and it's actually quite forgiving. The reason you don't think that is because that 84% is the 1.3ata when the specified combat setting is 1.25ata. 

 

I don't think you should be able to set your controls so perfectly while staring out the canopy at a merging aircraft and checking your six because some icons appear on the side of your screen. Being able to deploy exactly X% flaps if you need while not watching any indicators to force an overshoot. In that instance turning it off my self only put's me at a disadvantage. I don't get why a HUD in a aircraft from 1944 makes sense to anyone when GPS is also turned off. 

Edited by driftaholic
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1 hour ago, driftaholic said:

I don't think you should be able to set your controls so perfectly while staring out the canopy at a merging aircraft and checking your six because some icons appear on the side of your screen.

 

But in real life pilots were able to set their throttles to exact power settings due to physical gating of the lever travel.

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1 hour ago, driftaholic said:

I disagree with flying the aircraft at 84% because 85% is emergency power. The plane doesn't magically start a countdown unless you go above specifications and it's actually quite forgiving. The reason you don't think that is because that 84% is the 1.3ata when the specified combat setting is 1.25ata. 

 

I don't think you should be able to set your controls so perfectly while staring out the canopy at a merging aircraft and checking your six because some icons appear on the side of your screen. Being able to deploy exactly X% flaps if you need while not watching any indicators to force an overshoot. In that instance turning it off my self only put's me at a disadvantage. I don't get why a HUD in a aircraft from 1944 makes sense to anyone when GPS is also turned off. 

You are grossly exaggerating the reality. You can't be doing any of these things while also reading and interpreting technochat. Not effectively anyway.

 

If anything it simply provides feedback that the game is receiving your input that you can catch with peripheral vision. Something the pilot would feel anyway. As for engine settings, I have no idea why you would think pilots wouldn't know their optimal settings and just set them. Hell, it's printed in the cockpit of several planes and we all follow them. 

 

This anti-technochat thing just smacks of elitism. It's not like map indicators or aircraft tags. Not even close. It's truly.best left to each client. You don't need to use it if it gets in your way. 

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1 hour ago, Talon_ said:

 

But in real life pilots were able to set their throttles to exact power settings due to physical gating of the lever travel.

 

Yeah I understand many had a gate or a wire to push through or a detent of some sort to prevent passing safe settings. Really this would only potentially hurt players who use a keyboard to set their throttle position and even then you can glance down and see where it is, read the mp, rpm or listen to the sound when you don't have a chance to look. I'm not sold this one downside to forcing off the icons makes up for all the other ways it's gamed by players. 

 

49 minutes ago, -332FG-Jack_ said:

You are grossly exaggerating the reality. You can't be doing any of these things while also reading and interpreting technochat. Not effectively anyway.

 

If anything it simply provides feedback that the game is receiving your input that you can catch with peripheral vision. Something the pilot would feel anyway. As for engine settings, I have no idea why you would think pilots wouldn't know their optimal settings and just set them. Hell, it's printed in the cockpit of several planes and we all follow them. 

 

This anti-technochat thing just smacks of elitism. It's not like map indicators or aircraft tags. Not even close. It's truly.best left to each client. You don't need to use it if it gets in your way. 

 Let me ask you a counter question, why do we need icons off setting? Everybody that does not like icons can turn them off on his own screen.

 

I can use techno chat for an advantage, turn it off for a week and tell me it's not one. I prefer to play as close to reality of the time as possible. Of course you can know and set the exact settings the sim will allow with or with out techno-chat. The deal is how precisely you can do it without looking anything in the cockpit. The fact that you don't ever have to look at temperature a icon will warn you  of over overheats.  It's redundant to every gauge, indicator, light, lever, switch and system modeled in the cockpit. It also tells very unrealistically and precisely the type of damage your aircraft has sustained and if any systems are broken. 

Edited by driftaholic
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4 minutes ago, driftaholic said:

Really this would only potentially hurt players who use a keyboard to set their throttle position

 

Or in fact anybody without a physical detent at the top of "Combat" power on their HOTAS.

Edited by Talon_
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10 minutes ago, Talon_ said:

 

Or in fact anybody without a physical detent at the top of "Combat" power on their HOTAS.

Which is pretty much everyone. I don't see how this is a show stopper for turning off techno. If you miss the precise throttle setting in a dogfight you glance at your manifold pressure and rpm when you get a chance and correct it. Not every plane that could surpass cruise power had a gate of sorts. If you're blasting around at emergency power and the bleeding edge of combat power all the time anyways to the point you can't spare 1 min of over run in any setting is exactly the min/maxing techno chat unrealistically enables.

 

I'm pretty sure the 109 didn't have a detent and you can grenade that by going over on many models. So the inverse to your gate argument applies to planes that didn't have a gate or detent.

 

No elitism or disrespect meant in any of these, just sharing opinions. Also not trying to hijack this thread.

Edited by driftaholic
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6 minutes ago, driftaholic said:

 

I can use techno chat for an advantage, turn it off for a week and tell me it's not one. I prefer to play as close to reality of the time as possible. Of course you can know and set the exact settings the sim will allow with or with out techno-chat. The deal is how precisely you can do it without looking anything in the cockpit. The fact that you don't ever have to look at temperature a icon will warn you  of over overheats.  It's redundant to every gauge, indicator, light, lever, switch and system modeled in the cockpit. It also tells very unrealistically and precisely the type of damage your aircraft has sustained and if any systems are broken. 

 

Cool, play as close to reality. Nothing is stopping you. Tech chat is not a significant advantage, if any. It just slightly lowers the learning curve. The last thing we need is yet another barrier to entry keeping new players out of this hobby. 

 

They've already said on discord CB won't be blocking technochat, and that's a great thing.

 

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4 minutes ago, driftaholic said:

Not every plane that could surpass cruise power had a gate of sorts. 

 

Indeed, the Spitfire Vb had TWO gates. One for cruise to combat, and another for WEP! The Spit IX, Mustang and Tempest all have a single gate. P-47D has individually gated turbo and throttle. These are just the planes I know about, I didn't even check the Dora etc.

 

7 minutes ago, driftaholic said:

blasting around at ... the bleeding edge of combat power all the time ... is exactly the min/maxing techno chat unrealistically enables.

 

But that's what the gates are for. That's why they existed on the real planes. Real pilots really blasting around at the top of real power regimes is realistic.

 

Did you know that 1% throttle change will give the Bf109K-4  the difference between 1 minute of WEP or 10 minutes of WEP? Just 1% is that difference. That last 1% turns the MW50 on even though the power is already up over 1.8ata.

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8 minutes ago, -332FG-Jack_ said:

not a significant advantage

 

Makes you question why they bothered going to the effort to automate cooling systems on combat planes, or building helmet mounted displays with heading tapes. Waste of time really.

Edited by =EXPEND=Tripwire
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Yep the difference between BOOM and 2000HP 😅

 

To me I only see it as a reason to be deliberate with throttle movements and to scan the instruments. The gates don't replace the gauges and I don't think techno replaces the gates. But techno does replace nearly every indicator shy of airspeed and alt. It give pilots of 1944 a HUD from 2020

 

Technochat just makes you react unrealistically faster, fly on unrealistic edge of performance to the last %, provide you with unrealistic amount of information and makes you more competitive 

 

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1 hour ago, driftaholic said:

Which is pretty much everyone. I don't see how this is a show stopper for turning off techno. If you miss the precise throttle setting in a dogfight you glance at your manifold pressure and rpm when you get a chance and correct it. Not every plane that could surpass cruise power had a gate of sorts. If you're blasting around at emergency power and the bleeding edge of combat power all the time anyways to the point you can't spare 1 min of over run in any setting is exactly the min/maxing techno chat unrealistically enables.

 

No elitism or disrespect meant in any of these, just sharing opinions. Also not trying to hijack this thread.

I mean, trackIR enables you to min/max by turning you into an owl with it's head movement, ReShade makes you min/max contact spotting in exchange for making your game look like garbage.

Seems to be a bit selective to cry about min/maxing in a video game due to issues out of our control (the latter 2, SA and spotting), the matter in question, the fact that our controls at home are nothing like the control layout of the planes IRL. There are potentially other issues with removing technochat. As an example, the flaps for some aircraft, in real life, you can get a very good idea of the extension by the position of the flap lever in its range of motion or notches. Ingame, most of us have probably have flaps mapped to 2 buttons (retract/extend) which would make it impossible to be as accurate with the motions as in real life.

 

As an example, it seems to me that the racing sims [e.g. iRacing and Competizione] has accepted the necessity of technochat/hud to give more situational awareness to the player. Those games, they have bars for how much clutch/brake/gas pedal input you are inputting among other HUD stuff, like listing engine MAP changes when you change it with your controls (very much like technochat in this game). And this is with the fact that commercial sim racing equipment at the same pricepoint is way better then commercial flight sim periphals due to stuff like force feedback which allows you to have some degree of feel in how the car is handling.
 

Both sim communitites seem to suffer from it but the flight sim community is at another level with the idea of harder = more realistic.

Now, in my opinion technochat should probably be modified. In my opinion warnings shouldn't really be getting displayed, or have an option to turn that off. But the display of control inputs should stay

Edited by =362nd_FS=RoflSeal
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It is in the simulator category lol

 

I'm not here to argue how realistic or casual Combat Box should be. That's up to you. I'm only discussing why we don't need techno and what advantages I perceive it gives. Like, why do we need icons off? Everybody that doesn't want icons can turn them off just like Technochat but I assume it's off because of a perceived advantage.

 

Many of those things aren't in anyone control. This setting is within the server admin's control.

Edited by driftaholic
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This driftaholic person was bitten by a tech chat message as a child.

 

Everywhere you look on this forum he's campaigning about turning it off.

 

I fly a different plane every flight, I like it as it enables variety. Now please wait while I repeat this message loudly and endlessly

Edited by -RS-Nolly
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I really don't understand, what the problem is. Those who don't want to fly with the HUD and the TechChat can just simply disable it.

 

I have bound the HUD, FPS and compass to one button on my throttle, per default everything is off. Once in a while, especially when

I hear some "Morse code", I do turn it on with one button. That's it.

 

And when I sit in a cockpit I'm not very familiar with, I turn it on too until I've got the feel of the plane.

 

Some people, even wanting to fly as "real" as possible, cannot renounce having the TechChat. And that's OK for me.

 

The only thing that is a bit annoying, is that event messages, chats AND TechChat seem to run in one instance, so there is no way

to manage a separate display of those 3 blocks.

 

Finally, if someone thinks the TechChat is an advantage over others, then I would counter that all users having a 4K monitor or a

resolution of more than 1920x1080 or don't need glasses shouldn't be allowed to fly on the same server as I do. Weird, isn't it?

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My vote is leave tech chat on. If people want to fly without it, they can. If people are concerned about being disadvantaged, then they can turn it on. It's a small concession to accessibility.

 

I'm not convinced that it provides a massive advantage in combat, not any more than a proper HOTAS or a better monitor does. When I switched to flying without it I did not notice much in the way of issues - the late war planes seem to be a bit easier to run without tech chat IMO. 

On another note, I think the recent re-balancing effort of the maps has worked pretty well. I haven't put a lot of hours in but it seems like more people are running ground attack again now that it is more possible to make it back to friendly lines on the Allied side. From the mission stats it looks reasonably even in terms of win-rate.

 

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1 minute ago, [Pb]Slegawsky_VR said:

Is it possible to have radar messages ON with other clutter chat messages OFF?

Just as VR user it would be a dream come true.

Unfortunately the server messages are tied in with the instrument panel overlay, that shows all the server messages and in-game chat.

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Lots of sim pilots would regard the tech chat in the manner they would the inflight labels. It’s one of the reasons I’ve never really been able to take this game seriously when it places itself in the sim category along with that “other” sim. But this is a way better WWII product overall. 

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3 hours ago, -RS-Nolly said:

This driftaholic person was bitten by a tech chat message as a child.

 

Everywhere you look on this forum he's campaigning about turning it off.

 

I fly a different plane every flight, I like it as it enables variety. Now please wait while I repeat this message loudly and endlessly

 

It is his opinion and he is politely trying to make his point. There is no reason to mock him for it and you can still have a civil discussion even if you dont agree with him.

 

1 hour ago, RedKestrel said:


My vote is leave tech chat on. If people want to fly without it, they can. If people are concerned about being disadvantaged, then they can turn it on. It's a small concession to accessibility.

 

I'm not convinced that it provides a massive advantage in combat, not any more than a proper HOTAS or a better monitor does. When I switched to flying without it I did not notice much in the way of issues - the late war planes seem to be a bit easier to run without tech chat IMO. 

On another note, I think the recent re-balancing effort of the maps has worked pretty well. I haven't put a lot of hours in but it seems like more people are running ground attack again now that it is more possible to make it back to friendly lines on the Allied side. From the mission stats it looks reasonably even in terms of win-rate.

 

 

Although I personally would prefer to have it off, I can see the points being made here by both sides and agree with your point of view Red. I wont change much and give the individual who chooses to keep it on a massive advantage. I guess we will have a better idea on this when they introduce the labels OFF in TAW.

 

38 minutes ago, MatthiasAlpha said:

Lots of sim pilots would regard the tech chat in the manner they would the inflight labels. It’s one of the reasons I’ve never really been able to take this game seriously when it places itself in the sim category along with that “other” sim. But this is a way better WWII product overall. 

 

Agreed. But again, maybe it is the fact that it kinda meets both arcade and simulators half way that makes this game more appealing?

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2 hours ago, -=-THERION said:

...

The only thing that is a bit annoying, is that event messages, chats AND TechChat seem to run in one instance, so there is no way

to manage a separate display of those 3 blocks.

...

 

You can control Technochat separately. Go to Settings > Flight Interface and in Ingame messages, choose an option for what you want to see.

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Actually, it’s probably the fact that they’re happy to not just charge you almost retail game price for individual planes and then charge you for the map to fly them on. They’re also willing to sell the ground units so you can actually populate this map with period correct equipment. Almost 100 us dollars and you have one plane. Stonks. 

 

Won’t even get into the other stuff because this really isn’t the place. 

Edited by MatthiasAlpha
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There is such a lot of talking about that technochat. 

 

I just want to say that (I guess) a majority of players need it. Flying without technochat require to prefectly know your aircraft, be sure about your navigation, your "sky monitoring", etc... 

May be it would be good thing for a very hardcore server like TAW. 

 

And, as many said, if you want to fly without technochat, turn it off for yourself. I consider that if you are able to fly without technochat, it means you're already good enough and thus, not being a disadvantage against those who need it. 

Edited by JG300_Faucon
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There is such a huge logical fallacy here. Harder does not equal more realistic. 

I’m like most simmers, I have a $70 throttle. The only axis on this is the actual throttle axis, I have many other switches to aid my controlling of the aircraft. I do not have my flaps, my RPM, my turbo, my mixture, my radiator, my trim, etc, bound to an axis.

If I’m in a car, I don’t need to look at my feet to see how far I am pushing the accelerator. I know how far it is being pushed, because of muscle memory.

The same principe applies to flight. I don’t need to look at where I twisted my trim tab to in a Mustang, because the dial only has a certain range of travel. Alternatively, If I’m cruising in auto lean, and have to move my mixture (which is bound to a switch) to auto rich, I doubt that me having to stare at a mixture switch until the game’s random input scaling puts it in auto rich would be more “realistic”

It is more realistic to have that information displayed to the player. Perhaps not ‘hardcore’ enough, but it manifests itself in a more correct behavior. 

Edit: I don’t think exact percentages ought to be provided, but if there’s some way to display a general sense of where certain controls are without having to stare at them (Vague fractions?).

Edited by QB.Shallot
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In reality you don't look at the trim wheel, because you can usually feel the effect of trim on your stick. In game you can see that your nose stays where it is if you've trimmed it correctly. So, there is a feedback loop in-game as well, and you don't have to look at it, except to double check, which you do in reality anyway.

 

Having a modern day heads-up display in a game where people argue about realism is a bit awkward.

 

Basically, the techno chat removes a lot of the load that real life pilots had/have to deal with when flying prop fighters. HUDs (the real life equivalent of techno-chat) were invented precisely for the pilots so they don't need to look at the instruments during critical phases.

 

Anyway, the issue in-game is that there is no direct or indirect feedback for all controls, so not having techno chat means that you can't tell what's going on with some features in some planes, but trim is not one of them. Trim just requires some practice, and you'll learn in no time how the trimmed plane feels at a certain airspeed/attitude.

Edited by Raven109
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Just be glad we keep the auto-level under all circumstances. Imagine you're having a great night, wife and kids sleep, was a long day, second beer - and then it gets spoiled because you have no auto-level while dashing about in a fighter.

 

Full realism baby !images?q=tbn%3AANd9GcQ8_AV0lFSfFADXTrnzeU2Hmw6XlIk4cPG3Ymr2zDEk5K9Kih1Iudqgt_1UtgHz0X0AAQrx5MOO&usqp=CAc

 

 

P.S. TC off is fine with me, I think it's pretty cool to have that level of realism.

Edited by SCG_Fenris_Wolf
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10 hours ago, driftaholic said:

I'm not here to argue how realistic or casual Combat Box should be. That's up to you. I'm only discussing why we don't need techno and what advantages I perceive it gives. Like, why do we need icons off? Everybody that doesn't want icons can turn them off just like Technochat but I assume it's off because of a perceived advantage.

 

Many of those things aren't in anyone control. This setting is within the server admin's control.

 

It's reasonable for you to express a preference that we turn off technochat, and you've said why. Others have said why they think it's important. All seems fine, I just wish people would skip the posts (not yours) that degrade into name calling. We can all have differing opinions and discuss the 'why' of our opinion. I think new info has come up in this thread.

 

3 hours ago, JG300_Faucon said:

I just want to say that (I guess) a majority of players need it. Flying without technochat require to prefectly know your aircraft, be sure about your navigation, your "sky monitoring", etc... 

May be it would be good thing for a very hardcore server like TAW. 

 

And, as many said, if you want to fly without technochat, turn it off for yourself. I consider that if you are able to fly without technochat, it means you're already good enough and thus, not being a disadvantage against those who need it. 

 

I agree; I know I'd fly a lot worse and blow a lot more engines and have less SA without technochat.

 

I suspect TAW will use the option to disable technochat. It's very much in their ethos as a "maximum-sim" campaign server. Combat Box is somewhere in the middle, in terms of hardcoreness. We have GPS off and icons off. But we have no forced coalition balancing or per-pilot airplane limitations. I suspect we will not disable technochat either.

 

It's great that we have a range of multiplayer servers to choose from. Maps, aircraft, dates, mission styles and "difficulty" settings are all different between the servers. People can find the one that best suits them, and it might not be the same server all the time. I know plenty of CB regulars who happily hop onto WoL as well. That's cool. I might well choose to play TAW in "maximum sim" mode (if they hypothetically choose to disable technochat).

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2 minutes ago, -RS-Nolly said:

I apologise. My tone was unwarranted.

 

I was annoyed by the repetition.

 

Very nice mate. I too come off in a bad way a lot so I get it ... We just need to try, as much as possible, to be united as a community even when we disagree ... The community is already small as it is. Anyways, take care and stay safe!

 

Cheers

Edited by Riksen
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Despite my take on techno-chat I'm not pro maximum hardness = realism. For instance I think Alt-Vis is a good thing it makes up for things that monitors can't replicate compared to IRL. It's just wonky at the moment with the scaling changing by zoom.

 

Sorry if I ruffled some feathers. I enjoy this server and with only a few that stay populated I'm sure I'll be flying on it often enough regardless of techno chat settings.

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