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FW and Spit easier to de wing than the rest.

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Why are the wings of this 2 planes so weak in the game?

Easy to de wing at the root,  other planes not as much even 109s, Yaks, Migs.

 

Is de wing at the root a realistic effect? I dont see many videos of real guncam showing this effect, I have seen half wings blown away, but not at the root like we have in game.

 

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Not sure but I know de-wings are very common in-game compared to reality. I have read accounts of pilots hitting the wing root of 190s and seeing the wing fold up but I don't think it was as common as in-game.

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7 minutes ago, Dr_Molem said:

Ammunition location, perhaps.

Spitfire doesn't have ammo, or guns in the wing root and the ammo boxes for the wing root cannons in the 190 are in the fuselage.

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3 hours ago, Jaws2002 said:

Spitfire doesn't have ammo, or guns in the wing root and the ammo boxes for the wing root cannons in the 190 are in the fuselage.

 

The belt ran from the fuselage through the wing root to the guns. While I don't remember ever reading any proper investigation into it (and in all likelihood we never will), there's the going rumour that it is due to the belt exploding after incendiary hits. Most of the wing offs I've seen in actual gun cam footage includes what seems to be an explosion in the wing or the root.

 

Example at 8:50 which seems to be an explosion of the outer MGFF. There are others out there, I remember one at the wing root which would fit an explosion at the MG151:

 

That all being said, I still think shooting complete parts off (not just whole wings, same with elevators or tail fins) still happens a bit too easily with non-Mineshell calibers. Problem is, it's difficult to get perfect unless someone wants to add a whole material physics simulation to the damage model (hint: you don't):P Since the latest DM update it's gotten a lot better though.

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5 hours ago, Trooper117 said:

A kill is a kill, whether a wing, a tail section whatever falls off  :)

Of course,  and also in War Thunder.

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10 hours ago, Legioneod said:

Not sure but I know de-wings are very common in-game compared to reality. I have read accounts of pilots hitting the wing root of 190s and seeing the wing fold up but I don't think it was as common as in-game.

Now it could be the damage model, or it could be just that in our online dogfighting we are far more likely to be high deflection shooting planes in steep turns, which both exposes the planform of their wing and subjects it to heavy G. Whereas during most six bounces of unaware opponents must rounds would be aimed ar the fuselage and the thin edge of the wing would be a very small target.

I will add that as long as it is possible to do beached-trout stick-stirring maneuvers that rapidly alternate positive and neg G in a way that would have left a real pilot’s eyeballs popped out and  rolling around the cockpit floor (or left him feeling like they had, at any rate) it is probably best for gameplay that one can saw wings, tails and surfaces off, as such antics make precise targeting of engine and cockpit in a timely manner a crapshoot at best.

Edited by Rattlesnake

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57 minutes ago, II./JG77_motoadve said:

Of course,  and also in War Thunder.

 Wing ripping off does not guarantee a kill in WT...

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6 hours ago, II./JG77_motoadve said:

Why are the wings of this 2 planes so weak in the game?

Easy to de wing at the root,  other planes not as much even 109s, Yaks, Migs.

 

Is de wing at the root a realistic effect? I dont see many videos of real guncam showing this effect, I have seen half wings blown away, but not at the root like we have in game.

 

 

I think the 110 wings come off more often!

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I'm not worried about it... the whole object is to bring an enemy aircraft down. If it's wing, or propeller or even the pilots dentures fall out, if it knocks him out of the game then that's it.

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Part of it will be graphical representation of damage states too.

 

 There are only so many damage states that can reasonably be shown, so in cases where an aircraft would become outright dangerous to fly with wing root damage, the game has to choose between two damage states shown; it's simpler and easier to have bits fall off, as well as making sure it doesn't look ridiculous from the cockpit!

 

 Obviously these are all connected to the physical attributes of the individual components as modelled, but there has to be simplification there too; as a result you'll never get total realism, and you'll probably see extremes one way or another more often (lots of rounds into an enemy for no visible effect, or a few rounds and a wing comes off) than you really would. 

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well this pilot story shows 190s wings were week there, they would just fold even from .50 hits :)

 

 

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14 minutes ago, 77.CountZero said:

well this pilot story shows 190s wings were week there, they would just fold even from .50 hits :)

 

 

 

One needs to be careful with these retellings (especially with the Dogfights series, they like to embellish quite a bit).

 

Human memories are a fickle thing, especially over time. I would doubt that raking shots as depicted in that animation would be enough to collapse wings like that. It would make sense to me if the .50 cals had some helping by some high explosive Mineshells that just happened to be running through those areas.

He might have simply forgotten that the hits were rather 'flashy' or didn't notice it at all in the heat of the moment.

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I've seen this being discussed before in this forum. It always baffles me, as if it were a reasonable thing to ask that every rib and spar is accurately calculated in a engineering-model algorythm (which is what it would take), so that structural elements are only lost in real-life numbers.

 

In those days, as in today, no structutal element is irrelevant or superfluous in a plane's structural form - save for the eventual Barnes Wallis design - and a combination of high G, with the loss of even the tiniest section of tubing, could and frequently would result in some catastrophic failure. Or not. That would also depend on luck, accounting for some notorious jaw dropping photos out there. 

 

For my taste, if the game randomly takes away or folds a wing or an elevator, every "x" hits, the real life element is simulated well enough.

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2 hours ago, Mauf said:

 

One needs to be careful with these retellings (especially with the Dogfights series, they like to embellish quite a bit).

 

Human memories are a fickle thing, especially over time. I would doubt that raking shots as depicted in that animation would be enough to collapse wings like that. It would make sense to me if the .50 cals had some helping by some high explosive Mineshells that just happened to be running through those areas.

He might have simply forgotten that the hits were rather 'flashy' or didn't notice it at all in the heat of the moment.

 

It was real, His memory seems pretty good to me. Here is the combat report of the event.

352-moats-1jan45.jpg

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3 hours ago, 77.CountZero said:

well this pilot story shows 190s wings were week there, they would just fold even from .50 hits :)

 

 

Seen lots and lots of real guncam footage and never seen a de wing from the root, seen wing exploding yes , but just a complete wing clear coming off not.

If it happened in real life as often as in game we could be able to watch it those videos of planes loosing their wings off from the root all the time, but I have not been able to find one, it might have happened , but rare because you never see a video of it, and for sure not as common as we see it in game.

Just go try it in the game , quick mission against a Spit or FW shoot down 5 , and 3 are de wing from the root.......unrealistic , immersion killer and boring.

 

 

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4 minutes ago, 77.CountZero said:

P-47D :)

 

 

Yes that one too, sorry guys but this is very arcadish.

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5 minutes ago, II./JG77_motoadve said:

Yes that one too, sorry guys but this is very arcadish.

 

Add that to the list of other things that are wrong with this game.

 

Well we did have a more realistic DM a few updates back, but people complain that cannons weren't destroying aircraft in one hit, so now we are back at constant de wings.

I will say that it i not as bad as it was but imo it can always be improved.

Edited by Legioneod

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3 minutes ago, Legioneod said:

 

Well we did have a more realistic DM a few updates back, but people complain that cannons weren't destroying aircraft in one hit, so now we are back at constant de wings.

I will say that it i not as bad as it was but imo it can always be improved.

 

No, people were complaining that a plane full of holes and smoking like a pork was still fully controllable most of time, which was not really cool, nor realistic.

Edited by Dr_Molem
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1 minute ago, Dr_Molem said:

 

No, people were complaining that a plane full of holes and smoking like a pork was still fully controllable most of time, which was not really cool, nor realistic.

 

I didn't have a problem with bringing down aircraft. People just wanted the instant satisfaction of knowing they got a kill, instead of waiting for the aircraft to die from it's wounds.

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Just now, Legioneod said:

 

I didn't have a problem with bringing down aircraft. People just wanted the instant satisfaction of knowing they got a kill, instead of waiting for the aircraft to die from it's wounds.

Same here.

3.008 was a great DM, people complained, and we got the arcade de wing back, horrible  and the worst immersion killer in game.

Is Arcade what people wants?  look at the videos above of the P47s gettings de wings, looks realistic ? NO

Maybe we got too many War Thunder transplants here, really hope  Devs are not steering into that direction to please them.

 

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11 minutes ago, II./JG77_motoadve said:

Same here.

3.008 was a great DM, people complained, and we got the arcade de wing back, horrible  and the worst immersion killer in game.

Is Arcade what people wants?  look at the videos above of the P47s gettings de wings, looks realistic ? NO

Maybe we got too many War Thunder transplants here, really hope  Devs are not steering into that direction to please them.

 

 

It's unfortunate but I do think people are more interested in balanced arcade gameplay instead of a more realistic approach. Things like engine timers, g force modeling, flaps, etc need to be changed and improved upon if we are going to have a more realistic experience.

 

That being said, the DM in this game is far better than most and I think there is hope for improvement when it comes to the DM.

I'm not sure what cells are modeled in each aircraft but if we had a more detailed model of the cells we could have a more realistic DM.

 

Things like wing spars, engine, fuel tank, control surfaces, control cables, etc should have their own DM cell. I'm not saying model each frame but we need to model all the major components like I've listed above.

I've been told its modeled like that in-game but I seriously doubt it based off what we see with the DM currently.

 

I try not to complain too much because I know the team works hard to give us what we have, however there are some things that aren't good for the series and need to be improved upon.

 

EDIT: On the P-47 dewing note, I have seen guncam footage of a P-47 getting hit with cannon rounds in its wing root yet the wing held. The P-47 was hit multiple time yet there was no catastrophic damage like we see in-game. Pretty interesting stuff.

Edited by Legioneod

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I really liked the .08 damage model. Any chance we can get an offline option of which we prefer to use as part of the selectable preferences?

 

Man,  but the Dora is a lovely machine.

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3 minutes ago, EAF19_Marsh said:

I really liked the .08 damage model. Any chance we can get an offline option of which we prefer to use as part of the selectable preferences?

 

Man,  but the Dora is a lovely machine.

Yep, Dora is great. I expected similar high speed effectiveness for the Jug but I was sadly disappointed.

Dora is great fun to fly.

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1 minute ago, Legioneod said:

Yep, Dora is great. I expected similar high speed effectiveness for the Jug but I was sadly disappointed.

Dora is great fun to fly.

 

Maybe Tempest will be as fun? I really hope so. The Dora is wicked.

 

But the wing thing - I really wish we could go back to the better damage model that made more sense and fitted far better the accounts from the period.

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12 minutes ago, EAF19_Marsh said:

 

Maybe Tempest will be as fun? I really hope so. The Dora is wicked.

 

But the wing thing - I really wish we could go back to the better damage model that made more sense and fitted far better the accounts from the period.

 

Agreed.

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1 hour ago, Legioneod said:

I try not to complain too much because I know the team works hard to give us what we have, however there are some things that aren't good for the series and need to be improved upon

Voice your opinion or else the arcade guys voice theirs and then changes go towards that way.

Which is what happened when we had the best damage model and people whined it was too difficult to down planes.

 

Devs try to balance things, if only gamer arcade guys complain, and hardcore simmers say nothing, then we will see the sim going that direction.

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2 minutes ago, II./JG77_motoadve said:

Devs try to balance things, if only gamer arcade guys complain, and hardcore simmers say nothing, then we will see the sim going that direction.

 

I suppose the option thing would be difficult to impliment?

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6 minutes ago, EAF19_Marsh said:

 

I suppose the option thing would be difficult to impliment?

 

This series has never been that keen on options that affect core game-play: FM & DM. I assume because there is a fear; which may or may not be rational; that this opens the door to more exploits in MP. 

 

It is a shame: I liked 3.08 better too, even though it still had glaring shortcomings like 20mm HE shell splinters breaching self sealing fuel tanks meters away from the point of impact. 

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1 hour ago, EAF19_Marsh said:

 

Maybe Tempest will be as fun? I really hope so. The Dora is wicked.

 

But the wing thing - I really wish we could go back to the better damage model that made more sense and fitted far better the accounts from the period.

Oh tempest will be so mutch fun, 4xhispanosV, wings be flying all over the places lol  and british engine menagment is + only better would be if they used russian engines, if they only tought about the gamers back then

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1 minute ago, 77.CountZero said:

Oh tempest will be so mutch fun, 4xhispanosV, wings be flying all over the places lol  and british engine menagment is + only better would be if they used russian engines, if they only tought about the gamers back then

 

Stand by for a protracted campaign to nerf Hispanos from the usual suspects.

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1 hour ago, unreasonable said:

 

This series has never been that keen on options that affect core game-play: FM & DM. I assume because there is a fear; which may or may not be rational; that this opens the door to more exploits in MP. 

 

It is a shame: I liked 3.08 better too, even though it still had glaring shortcomings like 20mm HE shell splinters breaching self sealing fuel tanks meters away from the point of impact. 

 

3.08 really was a great DM, and like you said it did have it's problems, but if the Devs would have worked on improving that DM I think we would have a much better model now than what we currently have.

 

I really don't want to have to wait for DCS to release it's "fabled" damage model update in order to get a realistic experience.

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2 hours ago, unreasonable said:

 

Stand by for a protracted campaign to nerf Hispanos from the usual suspects.

 

Truth.

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The Spit Hispanno Mk.2s are great and the Mk. 5 offers slight RoF increase with slight muzzle velocity decrease. It is possibly a slightly better cannon but the overall impact of 4 with a high ammo load is the greatest advantage for the Tempest.

 

I see no reason that they should be deemed unfair or provoke any protest: good gun, but nothing significantly in advance of German or Soviet weapons.

 

Ran a QMB of Dora vs Ace -FNs: chewed them to pieces without breaking a sweat.

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6 hours ago, Legioneod said:

 

3.08 really was a great DM, and like you said it did have it's problems, but if the Devs would have worked on improving that DM I think we would have a much better model now than what we currently have.

 

I really don't want to have to wait for DCS to release it's "fabled" damage model update in order to get a realistic experience.

We are in the same channel, agreed 100%.

 

Please devs get rid of the de wing, its a step backwards, we have great cockpits ,great FMs, great graphics, great terrain, a truly immersive experience until de wing happens one after the other.

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De wing is very rare now , used to be bad almost all my kills were de wing  , but now it's ok for my taste.

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3 hours ago, 307_Tomcat said:

De wing is very rare now , used to be bad almost all my kills were de wing  , but now it's ok for my taste.

Rare? Watch the video above of the Dora, and the P 47 de wing one after the other.

 

If you are playing earlier fighters is rare but FW , Spit, Me 110, and P47 happens all the time.

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1 hour ago, II./JG77_motoadve said:

Rare? Watch the video above of the Dora, and the P 47 de wing one after the other.

 

If you are playing earlier fighters is rare but FW , Spit, Me 110, and P47 happens all the time.

Speaking from experience - last month in WOL but you are right didn't experience those fighters.

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