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1./JG2_Little_D

Question to red pilots about P-40E-1

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Posted (edited)

I try to learn to fly the P-40E-1 in MP mission servers, not at berloga. I found 3 different typs of engine settings and limits for the P-40E-1.

Pilot manual ( Internet )

In game Data

Cockpit info on the left side ( in Game )

Pilot manual:

Take off max.                                   54 Hg           3000 rpm       1 Min.

Take off Recommended               48 Hg           3000 rpm       5 Min.

Climb max.                                      48 Hg           2650 rpm        5 Min.

Climb Recommended                   35 Hg           2500 rpm       unlimit

Cruise max                                      38 Hg           2650 rpm       unlimit

Cruse Recommended                   30 Hg           2400 rpm       unlimit

In game Data:

Take off                                               45 Hg           3000 rpm        2 Min.

Cruise                                                  37 Hg           2600 rpm        unlimit

Combat                                                42 Hg           3000 rpm        5 min.  

Cockpit info on left side ( in Game )

Take off                                               44 Hg          2800 rpm       3 Min.

Climb                                                    37 Hg          2600  rpm       ½ hour limit

Cruise max.                                        37 Hg           2600 rpm        unlimit

Cruise min.                                         30 Hg           2300 rpm        unlimit

Emergency                                         42 Hg           3000 rpm        5 min.

 

Witch one I should use?

 

 

Regards

Little_D

Edited by 1./JG2_Little_D

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The in game data (ie. 2min/5min/unlimited) is the one that you have to follow to avoid engine damage. There were historical limits other than that, of course, because there were many different versions of the pilot's manual which all had different limits. The Dev's chose the manual which was supplied to the USSR, which had very conservative limits .

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Obviously the in-game data. Why would you expect the game to be modeled to a different standard than the settings they are telling you to use?

 

I'm not arguing which one is correct, but if you are asking which one to use in game, then the answer is pretty simple.

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Posted (edited)

In the pilot's notes for this aircraft, it is stated, to place the engine at take off power  (46" hg manifold pressure and 3000rpm) until the aircraft reached 2,200 feet altitude - then to leave it at 42" hg and 3000rpm until critical altitude achieved, which was 12,000 feet altitude.

 

On those settings, the P-40E climbed at about 2,000 feet per minute.

 

Therefore, based on the performance of the aircraft and those instructions stating for routine climbs, that the length of time in each power setting was

 

46" / 3000rpm = 1min

42" / 3000rpm = 5min

 

Total of 6min.

 

This is not "combat power" but climb power.

 

The USSR did not use 100/130 octane fuel as the western allies did - this is reflected in the reduced engine limits placed on the aircraft in the Russian manual. They used 80-90 octane fuel from domestic production in 1941, sometimes admixing it with imported western allied 100 octane fuel.

 

We should assume that the aircraft is operating using the CORRECT fuels as it was designed for, as every other aircraft is simulated.

 

Attached is corresponding document from http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/P-40/P-40.html

 

Also recommended is this read. Note that Crump was later banned from this forum.

 

 

 

F3R_power_chart.JPG

p40 performance.jpg

Edited by Venturi
more info, go ahead and debate it

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So 44” is +14 boost, to put it in English terms. 

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Posted (edited)

No ! 44" is around +6.9 Lbs Boost.

Rule of thumb Take Lbs Boost add 14 to it then double it to get inches. So for example +7Lbs boost

7 + 14 = 21 x 2 =42"

But see below for accurate table:

 

Boostatamap+sml.jpg

Edited by Bert_Foster

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I'm using these all the time, no issues.

 

Max continuous power: 39.5" at 2600 rpm
Max combat power: 43.5" at 2600 rpm, 30-minute limit
Emergency power: 50"+ at 3000 rpm, 1-2-minute limit

 

Got them from here -

 

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We weren't playing a video game at the time.

 

That's how.

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23 minutes ago, Frakkas said:

Russians did win the war, not USA... :)

upos my mistake :) ill send my self to sibiria

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Posted (edited)
56 minutes ago, Frakkas said:

Russians did win the war

First of all, it's Soviet people. They included Russians as well as other ethnic groups.
Second of all, the victory was achieved by joint effort of many countries, not only USSR and USA.

Back to the topic..

Edited by Arthur-A
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9 minutes ago, Arthur-A said:

First of all, it's Soviet people. They included Russians as well as other ethnic groups.
Second of all, the victory was achieved by joint effort of many countries, not only USSR and USA.

Back to the topic..

yes we understand we were just having fun :)

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''The Allies won the war'' right... now that's settled, back to the topic!

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Posted (edited)
On 3/31/2019 at 2:22 PM, Bert_Foster said:

No ! 44" is around +6.9 Lbs Boost.

Rule of thumb Take Lbs Boost add 14 to it then double it to get inches. So for example +7Lbs boost

7 + 14 = 21 x 2 =42"

But see below for accurate table:

 

Boostatamap+sml.jpg

 

 

Perfect, thanks! Makes one wonder why the Merlin could take +16lbs boost then for like what, 5min, on the same fuel as the Allison takes? :) What is that, like 57" Hg? :P

Edited by Venturi

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5 hours ago, Trooper117 said:

''The Allies won the war'' right... now that's settled, back to the topic!

Well it's a good thing they informed me. From playing this game I thought it was the Axis that won the war, and that the Allies were just barely holding on with their inferior aircraft.

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4 hours ago, Legioneod said:

Well it's a good thing they informed me. From playing this game I thought it was the Axis that won the war, and that the Allies were just barely holding on with their inferior aircraft.

 

 

Turns out you can win wars with equipment inferior to that of your enemy.

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2 hours ago, 7.GShAP/Silas said:

 

 

Turns out you can win wars with equipment inferior to that of your enemy.

 

Yep, who knew?

 

Also I do hope you realize I was being sarcastic in my first post.

I don't believe German technology was superior in and real way, save for the advances in rocketry and jet propulsion. (which other countries were working on as well.)

 

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19 hours ago, 7.GShAP/Silas said:

 

 

Turns out you can win wars with equipment inferior to that of your enemy.

Yes, it is accomplished with vastly superior leadership skills married to  a superior plan to prosecute a war..

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I think it’s far easier to build a formula car that excels at doing only five laps on one particular type of track, than to build one to do fifty, on fifteen kinds of track. 

 

Which makes it even more impressive when that  non specialist formula car can kick the booty of the specialist formula car. 

 

Just sayin ;)

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On 4/1/2019 at 10:33 PM, Legioneod said:

Well it's a good thing they informed me. From playing this game I thought it was the Axis that won the war, and that the Allies were just barely holding on with their inferior aircraft.

I know thhe solution to this problem: Me262!

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For that particular issue to have an impact in the game, we would have to simulate somehow factors haunting germany in the last years of the war, such as the scarcity of trained pilots, parts, quality of materials etc. To me, without that factor,  it is only natural that the axis overall performance is at least equal and perhaps better than the allied.

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I find the power limits pretty unrealistic.  Germans and Russian aircraft can spend half an hour at full bore but the p40 runs at historical power for about 5-10 min and then you might as well try to run home, makes it feel like you can't fly the plane the way it actually was flown.  

wikipedia:  "VVS pilots usually flew the P-40 at War Emergency Power settings while in combat, bringing the acceleration and speed performance closer to that of their German rivals, but could burn out engines in a matter of weeks.[25]Romanenko, Valeriy and James F. Gebhardt. "The P-40 in Soviet Aviation". Lend-lease on airforce.ru. Retrieved: 7 March 2006.

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I'm pretty sure that info is not factored into 'this' game...   :coffee:

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Posted (edited)

In the article quoted it actually says that the engines were shagged after 10 mins of WEP...  At "war emergency power" (all of 10 minutes with the Allison engine) the engine quickly wore out and the power fell off markedly. 

 

Cheers, Dakpilot 

Edited by Dakpilot

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The question is, with lack of automated boost control, and with less than 130PN fuel, what was "WEP" for the Red Air Force pilots in P40Es?

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10 minutes ago, Dakpilot said:

In the article quoted it actually says that the engines were shagged after 10 mins of WEP... 

 

Cheers, Dakpilot 

 

This is what it said mate.... At "war emergency power" (all of 10 minutes with the Allison engine) the engine quickly wore out and the power fell off markedly. As a result (according to reports from the regiment engineer), over a period of a month the maximum speed of the Kittyhawks did not exceed 350 - 400 kmh.

Power fell off, but at least the engine didn't seize/quit totally...

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Why does it say WEP "is all of 10 minutes"? and does it say they exceeded that or just used it? Articles like that are very interesting but should not really be used as a source of specific facts

 

Cheers, Dakpilot 

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On 4/2/2019 at 11:42 PM, Frequent_Flyer said:

Yes, it is accomplished with vastly superior leadership skills married to  a superior plan to prosecute a war..

or with huge loads of inexperienced troops

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8 hours ago, ME-BFMasserME262 said:

or with huge loads of inexperienced troops

 

Just for reference, the Axis troops deployed on the Eastern Front outnumbered the Soviets until mid-42.

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On 4/4/2019 at 2:27 PM, ethelward said:

 

Just for reference, the Axis troops deployed on the Eastern Front outnumbered the Soviets until mid-42.

Just as a reference my post was not referring to the Russians.

On 4/4/2019 at 6:59 AM, ME-BFMasserME262 said:

or with huge loads of inexperienced troops

I am not referring to the Russians.

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On 3/30/2019 at 9:09 AM, 1./JG2_Little_D said:

I try to learn to fly the P-40E-1 in MP mission servers, not at berloga. I found 3 different typs of engine settings and limits for the P-40E-1.

Pilot manual ( Internet )

In game Data

Cockpit info on the left side ( in Game )

Pilot manual:

Take off max.                                   54 Hg           3000 rpm       1 Min.

Take off Recommended               48 Hg           3000 rpm       5 Min.

Climb max.                                      48 Hg           2650 rpm        5 Min.

Climb Recommended                   35 Hg           2500 rpm       unlimit

Cruise max                                      38 Hg           2650 rpm       unlimit

Cruse Recommended                   30 Hg           2400 rpm       unlimit

In game Data:

Take off                                               45 Hg           3000 rpm        2 Min.

Cruise                                                  37 Hg           2600 rpm        unlimit

Combat                                                42 Hg           3000 rpm        5 min.  

Cockpit info on left side ( in Game )

Take off                                               44 Hg          2800 rpm       3 Min.

Climb                                                    37 Hg          2600  rpm       ½ hour limit

Cruise max.                                        37 Hg           2600 rpm        unlimit

Cruise min.                                         30 Hg           2300 rpm        unlimit

Emergency                                         42 Hg           3000 rpm        5 min.

 

Witch one I should use?

 

 

Regards

Little_D

Personally Ive found this.  The engine RPM you have to be careful with because theottle changes etc can easily push your RPMs and break your engine.  i keep my rpm at just under 75% maybe up it to 79 or 80% in a serious fight.

The rest is use of the throttle.  The manifold gauge -  always try to keep it between the green lines and not exceed 40' or whatever.  In a fight goto 40 or slightly above, maybe even some more.  Be VERY careful going to 100% because itll push waaay past even take off power and your engine will just plop out.

The cowl flaps make good emergency speed brakes as well (somewhat.. Tgey slow ya down)

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Surprised the "famous" Allison memo/letter has not been brought up. I post here without comment:

 

Allisioncomposite.jpg

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Oh, it's been posted a couple times before.

I keep a copy handy at all times.

 

No one ever believes it though.

 

😥

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Well you could comment that it (document) is Dec 42 and our engine is from 41 it had many updates from crankshaft to cylinder block, intake manifolds etc. 

 

If we had a late 1942 P-40 in game we could all have a different conversation.

 

Also what would the performance be with 1780hp? Rather good I would think.. Better than it was in reality, but some would be happy with some alternate reality I guess?? 

 

They were boosting Merlins to 2100 hp in 1937 and running them at 1600hp for ten hours, but it took a few years before that was a front line figure

 

Cheers, Dakpilot 

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Posted (edited)
11 hours ago, Dakpilot said:

Well you could comment that it (document) is Dec 42 and our engine is from 41 it had many updates from crankshaft to cylinder block, intake manifolds etc. 

 

If we had a late 1942 P-40 in game we could all have a different conversation.

 

Also what would the performance be with 1780hp? Rather good I would think.. Better than it was in reality, but some would be happy with some alternate reality I guess?? 

 

They were boosting Merlins to 2100 hp in 1937 and running them at 1600hp for ten hours, but it took a few years before that was a front line figure

 

Cheers, Dakpilot 

 

That engine was called the -73/F4R
Letter mentions both the -39 and -73/ F3R and F4R

Edited by =362nd_FS=RoflSeal
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A year is a long time in combat/frontline duty, when rebuilt /checked they are usually updated with the latest parts, the way the Allison was designed this was very likely 

 

Cheers, Dakpilot 

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Would be cool to work this into the gameplay somehow of a campaign down the road. You can run your engines at max WEP for longer than a few minutes like we have right now, BUT it will wear your engine out for the next mission. And then between missions you can have the crew swap out/overhaul an engine...but you only get a certain amount for your squad. And depending on how you are doing in game and the front/supply lines depend on the quality of the replacement parts and engines. 

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Posted (edited)

Some Time lines for the P40C and P40E in VVS service:

From Here:

http://lend-lease.airforce.ru/english/articles/romanenko/p-40/index.htm

The 126th IAP was re-equipped with the P-40E in May 1942. Located in the deep rear after the Germans' retreat, it combined its training on the Kittyhawk with its air defense mission of Moscow and environs in the quiet situation until the end of August. At the end of August it was also tasked to provide escort to government aircraft flying along the route from Moscow to Arzamas to Kuybyshev

 

AMERICAS HUNDRED THOUSAND

Pg 239: Oct 41 The first Tomahawks in Russia into action

 

SOVIET AIR POWER IN WORLD WAR II Yeffim Gordon

Pg 438: The first P40Es (Model H-87A-3, aka Kittyhawk MK IA) with completely redesigned fuselage and uprated V-1710-39 reached the USSR in late 1941. By May 1942 the number rose to 118 aircraft.

Edited by Bert_Foster

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Posted (edited)

Another indication of what the V1710-39 was good for 56" for 5 min. As tabled by Allison in Sep 1942. From the book Vee's for Victory  The story of the Allison V-1710 engine.

So further evidence that even the -39 was not quite as soft/delicate as it would appear in the Sim. Though Fuel is 100/130

AllisonWER.jpg

Edited by Bert_Foster

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