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190 A8, 109 G14, 109 K4 or 190 D9.


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9 hours ago, VO101Kurfurst said:

 

I have some doubts about this, given that the 603 and Jumo 213 were near equivalents, both in their power outputs and in installation. They were meant to be each others alternatives. Though the 213 looked a bigger brute when you see them both in real life next to each other.

 

IMO Wheter the 190 series had the 603 or the 213 did not matter much, and like in the case the 262’s 004, these engines may have not been fully developed by 1943. Probably the reason why twin engined aircraft got them first..

 

 

 Well, that's what Dietmar Herman's book on the long nose fokewulfs is saying. I don't have the book with me, but I know it goes  into quite a bit of detail about the issues with the jumo instalation. 

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13 hours ago, Jaws2002 said:

Foke Wulf was told to use Jumo engines instead. The problem was that, while the FW-190 conversion to DB-603 engines was straight forward, adapting the FW190 to the Jumo was a lot more complicated.

That's why,  you have the B and C versions flying in 1942 and the Jumo powered version didn't show up until late 1944.

If it wasn't for the me210/410, they could have had the DB603 powered Foke Wulf in service, in numbers,  by mid 1943.

 

It's actually a bit more political.

There was a toss-up as to what the next german fighter was supposed to be. Ole Willy put forward the Me 209, while Tank put forward the Ta 153. Both airplanes never materialized but cost a multitude of months to get over with. When the Ta 152 with the stop-gap Dora solution came to fruition, it already was 1944.

 

RLM ran out of time and didn't realize 'till 1944. The Ta 154 was another colossal duck-up. It would have been a tremendous short-range night interceptor (especially had they didtched the stupid wood-requirement* and gone forward with the Ta 254). All the while ole Milch tried to kill off the He 219. Because reasons. Because kindergarten. Because flying a Me 110G nightfighter is fun in 1945.

 

Ole Willy was busy drowning the german fighter- and bomber-development, which was already short on manpower. In hindsight he had better shut the eff up, concentrate on the 262 and have the others deveolp their aircraft without him interfering.

 

In a way the 410 did steal the 603 away from the Fw 190/ Ta 152 project (nazi dumbass planned economy ftw!), even though the final 410 was a pretty cool aircraft per sé. Trouble was, it was two years too late and as dead as dead meat could be in 1944.

 

___

* Ze Brits had a wooden Mossie, so good ole Hermann Meier needed to have a wooden miracle of his own. Tank had no experience building a wooden hi-performance plane and it showed. When the Ta 154 matured and all the fixes had been set down to become the 254, the project was cancelled. Because reasons. Because duh.

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my calls:

 

  • dogfighting - Bf109 F-4 - it works surprisingly well against spit IXs and la5FNs on the mad servers with incorrect plane matchmaking which allows this. Light and nimble. Best 109 feel for me.

 

  • powerbomb of "reckless speed and power" - (my prefered solo technique) - to come up from below unexpectedly stir up the hornet's nest, stomp over the enemies knowing at any time you can endure a 5:1 disadvantage and run away with ease - bf109 K-4. Boost the 2,0ata engine, keep an eye on the slip ball and go on a 400km/h climb and you will get >30m/s climb on low altitudes. 

 

  • high altitude work - bf109 K-4. I cannot wait for P-51. It has a similar top speed up high, and it will be a better diver, but  the 109 will climb better and  will turn way better.

 

  • boom and zoom - fw 190 D9 - it shares 2 important advantages over the 109 for this role. It's a more stable gun platform, ensuring better snapshot hitting chance, and most importantly, it has VERY good handling at high speeds.  ;)

 

It's only my opinion!

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2 minutes ago, II/JG54_Cule said:

my calls:

 

  • dogfighting - Bf109 F-4 - it works surprisingly well against spit IXs and la5FNs on the mad servers with incorrect plane matchmaking which allows this. Light and nimble. Best 109 feel for me.

 

  • powerbomb of "reckless speed and power" - (my prefered solo technique) - to come up from below unexpectedly stir up the hornet's nest, stomp over the enemies knowing at any time you can endure a 5:1 disadvantage and run away with ease - bf109 K-4. Boost the 2,0ata engine, keep an eye on the slip ball and go on a 400km/h climb and you will get >30m/s climb on low altitudes. 

 

  • high altitude work - bf109 K-4. I cannot wait for P-51. It has a similar top speed up high, and it will be a better diver, but  the 109 will climb better and  will turn way better.

 

  • boom and zoom - fw 190 D9 - it shares 2 important advantages over the 109 for this role. It's a more stable gun platform, ensuring better snapshot hitting chance, and most importantly, it has VERY good handling at high speeds.  ;)

 

It's only my opinion!

 

I wouldn't be to sure about the K4 turning way better than the P-51. I'm sure the Mustang will hang with the 109 in most situations just based of current modeling in-game and experience in other sims.

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Just now, Legioneod said:

 

I wouldn't be to sure about the K4 turning way better than the P-51. I'm sure the Mustang will hang with the 109 in most situations just based of current modeling in-game and experience in other sims.

 

(talking about turning on the left, which is what 109s do)

 

Both aircraft share similar wing loading, the P-51 has a neater laminar wing which at high altitudes with high angles of attack will badly affect turning radii. In addition the 109 still will have a bonus assisted turning capacity to the left using the more potent torque. In DCS this is especially fun for instance. Although it's been more than 2 years since I flew the K4 there actively on multiplayer. 

 

In good old 1946 it was generally so off it's not worth comparing in my opinion :)

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2 hours ago, Legioneod said:

 

I wouldn't be to sure about the K4 turning way better than the P-51. I'm sure the Mustang will hang with the 109 in most situations just based of current modeling in-game and experience in other sims.

 

It should be able to hold it's own in many cases, coming down to pilot.

 

Truth is we'll never know exactly how well the Mustang turned in relation to the 109, not really. Nobody is flying restored warbirds against each other at max performance.

 

Plenty of Mustang pilots got the better of 109's in knife fights, and that includes right down in the weeds...of course many of those were very green German pilots who were basically fodder as you well know.

Experienced German pilots in either the 109 or 190 didn't seem to fear the Mustang. They did fear the Jug quite a bit since Jugs dove on them from altitude with 8x.50 cals from an entire flight blasting through their formations.

 

Don Bryan describes encountering a "special" 109 that he couldn't get the better of  in his Mustang...which probably means encountering the rare 109 piloted by an expert.

 

 

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2 minutes ago, Gambit21 said:

 

It should be able to hold it's own in many cases, coming down to pilot.

 

Truth is we'll never know exactly how well the Mustang turned in relation to the 109, not really. Nobody is flying restored warbirds against each other at max performance.

 

Plenty of Mustang pilots got the better of 109's in knife fights, and that includes right down in the weeds...of course many of those were very green German pilots who were basically fodder as you well know.

Experienced German pilots in either the 109 or 190 didn't seem to fear the Mustang. They did fear the Jug quite a bit since Jugs dove on them from altitude with 8x.50 cals from an entire flight blasting through their formations.

 

Don Bryan describes encountering a "special" 109 that he couldn't get the better of  in his Mustang...which probably means encountering the rare 109 piloted by an expert.

 

 

Agreed. I do recall reading or hearing a German pilot state that they couldn't beat the Jug in the vertical, the Jug out zoomed them and just was better overall when it came to vertical fights.

 

Funny thing about turn rates, I've read both German and American pilots state that the Razorback P-47 could turn/outturn the G model 109 in a fight. I'll have to do more research on it but when the Germans captured a P-47 they discovered it was actually better in the turn than the 109s at the time.

 

Just goes to show that numbers and statistics don't show the whole picture.

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The 365th gave as good as they got in their Jugs when mixing it up with 109's and 190's in the 10K range, and at times lower.

Willie Heilmann relates a story of a singe Jug evading his flight of several 190's for quite some time at tree top level before they finally forced

him down with great effort (he was from Texas)

 

Higher is a given...hard to beat Jug up there.

 

Then Don Bryan said it wasn't worth a damn down low against 109's....so in circles we go.

It should be obvious to anyone who's read a book that it was a capable, dependable aircraft that excelled at getting it's pilot home even after much abuse.

 

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14 hours ago, Bremspropeller said:

 

It's actually a bit more political.

 

 

No it’s not, it is called rationalization of production. The way you approach it however  is political[/i] and essentially a simplifies down complex military procuration  requirements and capabilities down to Nazis = bad = stupid. ‘Planned production economy’, duh! You mix up Nazi-run and Communist-run economy.

 

He 100 / 112, Ta 152, Ta 154, He 219, Me 209/309 etc were all designs that either offered nada over existing designs already in production, or were answer to a question nobody asked, romanticed/all hyped up Ex posto facto. There is a good reason why they were all low prio or axed, and showing that Erhard Milch had a clue how to actually do his job.

 

For example, for all the hype the goes into the Ta 152 for example, the actual specs are not that impressive, when you look at the actual fighting altitudes where it ended up fighting. Its not the plane’s fault, it was designed well for a job that was never done in practice. its basically a ~5-ton plane built for one thing - countering fantasy B-29s possessing capabilities that only existed in the top Nazis head based on inaccurate Japanese rumors.

 

Jaws2002 said:



Well, that's what Dietmar Herman's book on the long nose fokewulfs is saying. I don't have the book with me, but I know it goes  into quite a bit of detail about the issues with the jumo instalation.

 

Its been a while since I have read Herman's book, I will check it. However from what I have seen, both the Jumo and the 603 were still well under development in 1943. They were down, but still in 'beta' stage. I am sure there were some work involved in making the Jumo fit into the A-series airframe, but are you sure it was not down to

the fact that they had to convert an airframe meant for the radial BMW engine?

 

P.S. I need a strong black coffee, I can't type lol.

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19 hours ago, Bremspropeller said:

In a way the 410 did steal the 603 away from the Fw 190/ Ta 152 project (nazi dumbass planned economy ftw!), even though the final 410 was a pretty cool aircraft per sé. Trouble was, it was two years too late and as dead as dead meat could be in 1944.

They started production of the Me-410, with db-603 engines in January 1943 and built 1100 of them until September 1944, when the FW190D9 started entering service. Those engines  could have powered 2200 FW-190C fighters, exactly during the period when the high altitude of the German fighters was an issue. Sure this planes, with early engine wouldn't have had ta152 performance, but up high, where the Mustang was dominating early and mid 1944, they were better than the a5, A6 or A8.

2000 long nose fw190s are still better bang for the buck than 1000 lumbering me410s.

5 hours ago, VO101Kurfurst said:

Its been a while since I have read Herman's book, I will check it. However from what I have seen, both the Jumo and the 603 were still well under development in 1943. They were down, but still in 'beta' stage. I am sure there were some work involved in making the Jumo fit into the A-series airframe, but are you sure it was not down to

the fact that they had to convert an airframe meant for the radial BMW engine?

I have the book at home. I'll have a better look when I get home tomorrow. 

If i remember correctly,  some auxiliary installation on the Jumo was  "on the wrong side" or something like that, and the front fuselage had to be redesigned to make it work.

The db603 was not exactly mature in 1943, but that didn't stop them from starting the Me410 production in January 1943, so that wasn't exactly the issue.

Hitler wanted his Zerstorer and he got it.

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Of the Luftwaffe birds, and yes I do (though not often) fly them, my favorite is the 109 F series.  It's overall balance just makes it a joy to fly.  Of the 190s it's the D9, no contest.  Again because it is such a balanced package.  However if an HS 123 ever showed up in the sim It would be my LW bird of choice, all day, every day.  Now some caveats...  In an offline campaign I would take the D9, because it can fulfill multiple roles so well.  Online, in the world of swirling dogfights and the rinse and repeat action typical of the online experience, I'd take the K4, because, ability to run at combat/boost till the tank runs dry.  Unrealistic, but so is the way that online matches typically work.

 

All that said, my favorite over all is still the P40, silly engine limits and all.  Sure, online I would die a lot, but I don't care, it's my plane and I don't choose favorites based on stats.  Besides, when I do get a kill in it, or when I play all sneaky and blow up some ground objective and get back home in one piece, that victory is all the more savored.

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22 hours ago, Bremspropeller said:

 

It's actually a bit more political.

There was a toss-up as to what the next german fighter was supposed to be. Ole Willy put forward the Me 209, while Tank put forward the Ta 153. Both airplanes never materialized but cost a multitude of months to get over with. When the Ta 152 with the stop-gap Dora solution came to fruition, it already was 1944.

 

RLM ran out of time and didn't realize 'till 1944. The Ta 154 was another colossal duck-up. It would have been a tremendous short-range night interceptor (especially had they didtched the stupid wood-requirement* and gone forward with the Ta 254). All the while ole Milch tried to kill off the He 219. Because reasons. Because kindergarten. Because flying a Me 110G nightfighter is fun in 1945.

 

Ole Willy was busy drowning the german fighter- and bomber-development, which was already short on manpower. In hindsight he had better shut the eff up, concentrate on the 262 and have the others deveolp their aircraft without him interfering.

 

In a way the 410 did steal the 603 away from the Fw 190/ Ta 152 project (nazi dumbass planned economy ftw!), even though the final 410 was a pretty cool aircraft per sé. Trouble was, it was two years too late and as dead as dead meat could be in 1944.

 

___

* Ze Brits had a wooden Mossie, so good ole Hermann Meier needed to have a wooden miracle of his own. Tank had no experience building a wooden hi-performance plane and it showed. When the Ta 154 matured and all the fixes had been set down to become the 254, the project was cancelled. Because reasons. Because duh.





The Germans seemed to believe in a quick end to the war, and so a lot of projects that should have been given priority weren't, and some projects prevented other projects from being completed quicker.

For example Messer developed the Me 309 on it's on money, and as a result development proceeded at a glacial pace (compared to if it had been funded), and by the time the Me 309 did finally fly, it was out performed by the Bf 109 G....

The Jumo 213 had developmental delays which may have been solved earlier if the company hadn't poured so much time into the Jumo 222,

And high altitude turbochargers were deemed to be too expensive on the BMW 801

I'm happy to be mistaken, but  from the little that I have read the issue with the Ta 154 was that the factory that produced the glue got bombed, and the replacement glue... wasn't suited.


All of these combined with the changing requirements in each design... which seemed to change quite often.....

They needed fighters, yet sticking a bomb rack on a Me 262 for revenge attacks was judged to be more important....



 

In regards to what German Fighter I would choose to fly in game,

To me it all depends on the mission, the threat environment, and if I am flying by myself or as part of a squad.


I will say that the Dora is really appealing to me at the moment, I guess for me the Dora in the old il2 just didn't seem right.... especially when there was a Zero that was faster on the deck than it....



 

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10 hours ago, VO101Kurfurst said:

No it’s not, it is called rationalization of production. The way you approach it however  is political[/i] and essentially a simplifies down complex military procuration  requirements and capabilities down to Nazis = bad = stupid. ‘Planned production economy’, duh! You mix up Nazi-run and Communist-run economy.

 

No. The Nazis proved the buddy-system, where contracts were assigned by a few key people to people they either liked or not, just didn't work.

They also showed that assigning key personnel based on party membership or party seniority-numbers wasn't such a great deal either.

 

It also showed that requesting a design to do it all doesn't work. That killed a boatload of planes.

Be it the Me 210, the Bomber B or the He 216.

 

The production capability was so *great*, they were committed with a 10 year old airframe in 1945, because they wouldn't re-tool their production facilities earlier. Because they couldn't - or else they wouldn't be able to burp out fighters in astronomical numbers.

 

The Nazis just couldn't provide the required amount of airframes without stumbling over their feet. Neither could they ramp up production of newer, better engines without denting production-capabilities already running.

 

10 hours ago, VO101Kurfurst said:

He 100 / 112, Ta 152, Ta 154, He 219, Me 209/309 etc were all designs that either offered nada over existing designs already in production, or were answer to a question nobody asked, romanticed/all hyped up Ex posto facto. There is a good reason why they were all low prio or axed, and showing that Erhard Milch had a clue how to actually do his job.

 

Incorrect.

The He 100 - even with a common cooler design - flew as fast as the 109 and offered almost twice the range on internal fuel. It also had a more sizeable growth potential.

The Fw 187 had the respective twin engine upper hand over the Me 110. In fact it was roughly comparable to the P-38 - something the 110 couldn't have even dreamt of.

 

The Ta 152 was a common airframe multimission fighter bomber that could mix it with the allies and offered more range on internal fuel than previous Luftewaffe fighters with external gas. It also had more internal weapons capability. It's the Luftwaffe's P-47.

 

The Ta 154 was the perfect replacement for the Me 110 in the night fighter role, while the He 219 would have replaced the Ju 88G. Placing all eggs in one basket (Do 335) meant the Luftwaffe had no competitive night fighter in the latter half of 1944 - safe for some Ju 88Gs that were nearing their growth limit. The Ju 388 didn't get it's engines working right until the war was over, unfortunately. They were relatively close, though.

 

10 hours ago, VO101Kurfurst said:

For example, for all the hype the goes into the Ta 152 for example, the actual specs are not that impressive, when you look at the actual fighting altitudes where it ended up fighting. Its not the plane’s fault, it was designed well for a job that was never done in practice. its basically a ~5-ton plane built for one thing - countering fantasy B-29s possessing capabilities that only existed in the top Nazis head based on inaccurate Japanese rumors.

 

The Ta 152H was nothing but a specialized high altitude version of the Ta 152, using a different engine.

The 152C was to be THE Ta 152.

 

The 152H would have been ideal for recce-hunting at high altitude.

 

2 hours ago, novicebutdeadly said:

And high altitude turbochargers were deemed to be too expensive on the BMW 801

 

Only in fighters. That was mainly because there wasn't enough size to shoehorn the turbo and ducting into an airframe that was designed without. It was an afterthought.

There could have been stop-gap solutions to improve the 190's high altitude performance significantly. They weren't followed, though. Mostly because top brass buddies in the RLM couldn't think of the USAAF flying over Germany at medium to high altitudes 1-2 years later.

 

The 190 had proved promising performance on a DB 603 in 1942, yet nobody took notice. They didn't know that a Merlin-powered P-51 that would knock the socks off any Luftwaffe fighter for more than 6 months was just around the corner - because they lacked an inteligence agency worth it's name.

 

Luftwaffe fighter-planning was shadow-boxing in the dark in these days.

 

2 hours ago, novicebutdeadly said:

I'm happy to be mistaken, but  from the little that I have read the issue with the Ta 154 was that the factory that produced the glue got bombed, and the replacement glue... wasn't suited.

 

The glue problem was solved, thoug and didn't create any tactical hindrance. The main problem was...you've guessed it...engine allocation and proving it's performance before RLM.

RLM was dissatisfied with the 154's project progress and by the time they had fixed the issues, RLM moved on. They though they can have it all with the Do 335.

 

2 hours ago, novicebutdeadly said:

All of these combined with the changing requirements in each design... which seemed to change quite often.....

They needed fighters, yet sticking a bomb rack on a Me 262 for revenge attacks was judged to be more important....

 

I haven't EVER seen a reason why the sticking of bombracks onto the 262 was bad for the program. It not only saved enough allocation of manpower, it also gave the aircraft a good mission. In fact, the 262 should have been a relatively good fighter-bomber, had the pilots been given enough time to train and get tactically versed with the airplane.

The bombing role did zero to delay the aircraft (that was mostly due to deveopment issues). It only hindered the allocation of 262 to Reichsverteidigung, which is a strategical failure, but not really a hindrance to the aircraft's development.

 

5 hours ago, Jaws2002 said:

They started production of the Me-410, with db-603 engines in January 1943 and built 1100 of them until September 1944, when the FW190D9 started entering service. Those engines  could have powered 2200 FW-190C fighters, exactly during the period when the high altitude of the German fighters was an issue. Sure this planes, with early engine wouldn't have had ta152 performance, but up high, where the Mustang was dominating early and mid 1944, they were better than the a5, A6 or A8.

2000 long nose fw190s are still better bang for the buck than 1000 lumbering me410s.

 

I'd say you can double or tripple that figure, had the "190C" really taken off.

It could have borrowed increasingly from DB 605 production capabilities whilst scaling down 109-production once the "190C" project had gone forward.

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From a pure performance point of view if I want to survive I would take the 109K4 over the Dora may be not as manouvrable at high speeds but the climb rate acceleration and no bad altitude to be is just better for my style. 

 

On the early 44 betweeen G14 and A8 for me is more close. And really dont know what to choose. Overall i preffer the G14 but if I need to dive with a spitfire behind... the A8 is just insane so I enjoy both. 

 

I think I will not enjoy as well doras if I match a tempest and P51s 

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On 3/29/2019 at 6:10 AM, Bremspropeller said:

 

I All the while ole Milch tried to kill off the He 219. Because reasons. Because kindergarten. Because flying a Me 110G nightfighter is fun in 1945.

 

Eric Brown considered the He 219 to be under powered and have very poor single engine handling and climb. It never achieved it's design performance, it was unreliable, it struggled to catch Mosquitos, it offered little performance gain over late Ju 88Gs. The night fighter version of the multirole Ju 388 airframe  would seem to offer a much better ROI.

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10 hours ago, Bremspropeller said:

 

No. The Nazis proved the buddy-system, where contracts were assigned by a few key people to people they either liked or not, just didn't work.

They also showed that assigning key personnel based on party membership or party seniority-numbers wasn't such a great deal either.

 

It also showed that requesting a design to do it all doesn't work. That killed a boatload of planes.

Be it the Me 210, the Bomber B or the He 216.

 

The production capability was so *great*, they were committed with a 10 year old airframe in 1945, because they wouldn't re-tool their production facilities earlier. Because they couldn't - or else they wouldn't be able to burp out fighters in astronomical numbers.

 

The Nazis just couldn't provide the required amount of airframes without stumbling over their feet. Neither could they ramp up production of newer, better engines without denting production-capabilities already running.

 

 

Incorrect.

The He 100 - even with a common cooler design - flew as fast as the 109 and offered almost twice the range on internal fuel. It also had a more sizeable growth potential.

The Fw 187 had the respective twin engine upper hand over the Me 110. In fact it was roughly comparable to the P-38 - something the 110 couldn't have even dreamt of.

 

The Ta 152 was a common airframe multimission fighter bomber that could mix it with the allies and offered more range on internal fuel than previous Luftewaffe fighters with external gas. It also had more internal weapons capability. It's the Luftwaffe's P-47.

 

The Ta 154 was the perfect replacement for the Me 110 in the night fighter role, while the He 219 would have replaced the Ju 88G. Placing all eggs in one basket (Do 335) meant the Luftwaffe had no competitive night fighter in the latter half of 1944 - safe for some Ju 88Gs that were nearing their growth limit. The Ju 388 didn't get it's engines working right until the war was over, unfortunately. They were relatively close, though.

 

 

The Ta 152H was nothing but a specialized high altitude version of the Ta 152, using a different engine.

The 152C was to be THE Ta 152.

 

The 152H would have been ideal for recce-hunting at high altitude.

 

 

Only in fighters. That was mainly because there wasn't enough size to shoehorn the turbo and ducting into an airframe that was designed without. It was an afterthought.

There could have been stop-gap solutions to improve the 190's high altitude performance significantly. They weren't followed, though. Mostly because top brass buddies in the RLM couldn't think of the USAAF flying over Germany at medium to high altitudes 1-2 years later.

 

The 190 had proved promising performance on a DB 603 in 1942, yet nobody took notice. They didn't know that a Merlin-powered P-51 that would knock the socks off any Luftwaffe fighter for more than 6 months was just around the corner - because they lacked an inteligence agency worth it's name.

 

Luftwaffe fighter-planning was shadow-boxing in the dark in these days.

 

 

The glue problem was solved, thoug and didn't create any tactical hindrance. The main problem was...you've guessed it...engine allocation and proving it's performance before RLM.

RLM was dissatisfied with the 154's project progress and by the time they had fixed the issues, RLM moved on. They though they can have it all with the Do 335.

 

 

I haven't EVER seen a reason why the sticking of bombracks onto the 262 was bad for the program. It not only saved enough allocation of manpower, it also gave the aircraft a good mission. In fact, the 262 should have been a relatively good fighter-bomber, had the pilots been given enough time to train and get tactically versed with the airplane.

The bombing role did zero to delay the aircraft (that was mostly due to deveopment issues). It only hindered the allocation of 262 to Reichsverteidigung, which is a strategical failure, but not really a hindrance to the aircraft's development.

 

 

I'd say you can double or tripple that figure, had the "190C" really taken off.

It could have borrowed increasingly from DB 605 production capabilities whilst scaling down 109-production once the "190C" project had gone forward.



The He 100 D outperformed the equivalent Bf 109 which was the E series in almost every respect, I don't think that the design had too much development potential since for example the engine cowling was a tight fit and so may not have been able to accommodate  engine adaption like a different supercharger for example, or a change to the DB 605


And here is where the "could of" and "should of" turns into a merry  go round.

For example:

They build the He100 D which gives 109 performance to almost the 109 G (1942) but  available in 1939/1940

They give  priority to the DB603 and Jumo 213 (and not waste time on the Jumo 222) and fit them to 190's in 1943

And maybe fit the Db605 to the 190's in 1942  (I can't rememeber if they tried this and why other than engine shortage they didn't do this, after all it weighs nearly 200 kg less) and then go to the DB 603/ Jumo 213

So in 1942 you have:

- 190's with BMW 801 replacing the stuka's
- 190's with DB 605's complementing the He 100 (as it comes to the end of it's life as a front line fighter)
- 190's starting to appear with the DB603 / Jumo 213

- And if you want to be fancy you have the Me 309 as well (with less guns to fit the role as a fighter)

Or keep the Bf109 development in the F series and don't worry about the He100 D ?

though in all of this the allies would then have increased their R&D and put other design into service as well.


I mentioned the Me 262 because it was one of the few aircraft that had a chance of disrupting the allied daytime bombing raids.

What are your thoughts on changing the 4 X 30mm's to 5 or 6 X 20mm (since nose mounted you don't have to worry about dispersion, and it would be better suited to the speeds of the jet for aiming)


Though this is a tad off topic :scratch_one-s_head:

  

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47 minutes ago, novicebutdeadly said:

What are your thoughts on changing the 4 X 30mm's to 5 or 6 X 20mm

 Silly idea. 

It's always more efficient to increase caliber, shell mass and rate off fire, instead of adding more guns.

 I'd say that, for the type of guns used in ww2, regardless of caliber, once you think you need more then four guns, it's bloody time to go to the next caliber.

 You see, every gun comes with a lot of extra hardware that adds to the weight of the instalation, feed channels, ammo boxes, heating installation, firing mechanism, reloading mechanism,  and so on. You are better off carrying that extra weight in ammo.

 

Edited by Jaws2002
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1 hour ago, Jaws2002 said:

 Silly idea. 

It's always more efficient to increase caliber, shell mass and rate off fire, instead of adding more guns.

 

Firepower is useless if you can not hit your targets reliably. Big caliber slow velocity guns are fine when you shot at big not maneuvering bombers. Against fighters? - quad 20mm will shred them in an instant too and you will have easier time getting a gun solution plus more ammo.

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34 minutes ago, MiloMorai said:

A P-47 would have been better with 4 20mm cannon than 8 .50" hmgs?

Depends.

 

34 minutes ago, MiloMorai said:

P-51 should have stayed with the 4 20mm cannon?

If they were Hispanos as mounted in the Tempest, most definitely. But maybe not in 1943.

 

The cal 0.50 HMG are a relatively heavy package for the punch. The Mustang would be lighter with only 4 bigger caliber guns of almost similar weight instead of 6. The problem with the 20 mm was they were not as reliable at the time. Availability, reliability, fire rate and ballistics however made the second choice a very good one for shooting light targets such as (small) aircraft. Even if you had to bring more of them to compensate for the caliber. 

 

In general, if you need to bring more than one gun, then you don‘t have the gun required for the job. The more guns you need, the less suited are the weapons you have at disposal.

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My favorite combo: me in a D9 + JG27-Kornezov in his 109K4. Nobody can escape by climbing or running away. I have the high speed maneuverability and ammo load needed for extended fighting. He has stellar climb and speed at all relevant altitudes coupled with better Slow-Fight capabilities.

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2 hours ago, MiloMorai said:

A P-47 would have been better with 4 20mm cannon than 8 .50" hmgs?

 

P-51 should have stayed with the 4 20mm cannon?

especialy for game :)

only reason why tempest is so tempting for game (p51 will be better performer but poor guns) is that it has 4x20mm, as you kill oponent in one pass and go for next one, (apeal of lagg23) when your side is constantly outnumbered you dont have time for 2-3 passes with .50 cals. Also P-38 with its combo of 20 +.50 all grouped tight in nouse will be good option, but not as what tempest gives to game.

Edited by 77.CountZero
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4 hours ago, novicebutdeadly said:

They build the He100 D which gives 109 performance to almost the 109 G (1942) but  available in 1939/1940

They give  priority to the DB603 and Jumo 213 (and not waste time on the Jumo 222) and fit them to 190's in 1943

And maybe fit the Db605 to the 190's in 1942  (I can't rememeber if they tried this and why other than engine shortage they didn't do this, after all it weighs nearly 200 kg less) and then go to the DB 603/ Jumo 213

So in 1942 you have:

- 190's with BMW 801 replacing the stuka's
- 190's with DB 605's complementing the He 100 (as it comes to the end of it's life as a front line fighter)
- 190's starting to appear with the DB603 / Jumo 213

- And if you want to be fancy you have the Me 309 as well (with less guns to fit the role as a fighter)

Or keep the Bf109 development in the F series and don't worry about the He100 D ?

though in all of this the allies would then have increased their R&D and put other design into service as well.


I mentioned the Me 262 because it was one of the few aircraft that had a chance of disrupting the allied daytime bombing raids.

What are your thoughts on changing the 4 X 30mm's to 5 or 6 X 20mm (since nose mounted you don't have to worry about dispersion, and it would be better suited to the speeds of the jet for aiming)

 

The 190 was projected with a 605 at some time, but the project was ditched quickly, as the 605 didn't provide sufficient performance. Unless taking the late alcoholic versions, it wasn't powerful enough. No deal sticking a 1400HP engine on an airframe that needs 1700HP+.

 

6 20mm guns up the nose of the 262 would not have worked. There's just not enough sace for guns and ammo.

The MK 108 was an awesome gun in terms of firepower. It lacked ballistics (due to the short barrel), but it made up with firing rate and pretty cozy dimensions.

 

4 hours ago, novicebutdeadly said:

The He 100 D outperformed the equivalent Bf 109 which was the E series in almost every respect, I don't think that the design had too much development potential since for example the engine cowling was a tight fit and so may not have been able to accommodate  engine adaption like a different supercharger for example, or a change to the DB 605

 

I don't think installing the 605 ould have been too troublesome. Remember that the 605 only became a necessity because the 109F couldn't be brought up to higher performance levels on a 601, so they had to come up with more displacement for the 109G.

Also, looking at the DB505AS and ASM versions, with their supercharger taken off a 603, as similar crutch could have been used on the He 100.

 

Mind you: I only brought up the 100 beause Kurfy insisted there were no wrong desicions in german airplane procurement.

 

 

 

8 hours ago, imaca said:

Eric Brown considered the He 219 to be under powered and have very poor single engine handling and climb. It never achieved it's design performance, it was unreliable, it struggled to catch Mosquitos, it offered little performance gain over late Ju 88Gs. The night fighter version of the multirole Ju 388 airframe  would seem to offer a much better ROI.

 

The 219 is a little over-hyped in terms of achievable performance. What it offers on the "have"-side, though, is a purpose-built airframe with a large quantity of weaponry, lots of gas to stick around, a tricycle-landing-gear to make night take-offs and landings a breeze and that fancy ejection-seat. Plus there was rom left for growth.

Mossies were a big concrn, but they didn't make or break a pending night-fighter design. That would have to be the "1000 bomber raid" quads, like the Halifax or Lancaster.

 

There was a projected version with two Jumo 222, which would have performed very great.

Too bad that this engine never materialized - it also crippled the Bomber B, which was a similarly interesting project.

 

The Ju 88 also was pretty lazy on one engine and could get dangerous (especially at night).

IIRC Helmut Lent - one of the premier night fighter aces and an important leader - died while attempting a single engine landing and having a bit of bad luck intervene.

 

 

 

 

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3 hours ago, Bremspropeller said:

6 20mm guns up the nose of the 262 would not have worked. There's just not enough space for guns and ammo.

 

The Me262A-1a/U5 had 6 MK108s in the nose. There was also plans for 4 MK213Cs in the nose.

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8 hours ago, MiloMorai said:

A P-47 would have been better with 4 20mm cannon than 8 .50" hmgs?

 

P-51 should have stayed with the 4 20mm cannon?

 Absolutely. And everyone knew that, including the US war department back in 1941. They were paying attention to what was going on in Europe.

As soon as US joined the war, they bought the licence for the Hispano2 from the French and started preparations for mass production.that was supposed to be the standard weapon for US fighters.

 The problem was that the blueprints and technical documentation was in metric and they had to convert it to imperial.

 The Brits already did this and offered their already converted version, that also fixed some reliability issues that showed up due to the wing installation.

 The Americans refused and did their own conversion and some changes to the design. 

 The top brass at ordnance department thought that prototyping and testing is for pu$$ies, so they built a brand new plant for this cannons straight from the new blueprints.

 And if that was not enough, 20mm auto cannons, because they were cannons and not small arms, were built with tolerances used for field artillery.

Then to their surprise, most of the brand new cannons, built on a brand new production line, couldn't chamber and fire the ammunition they were designed for.

 

Then it took a long time to fix the problem,  the war couldn't wait for it and that's why they standardized on the .50 cal and stayed with it.

 The hispano2 was a rather heavy cannon with low rate of fire anyway, but both, the Mustang and the p47 would have been better armed and  more efficient with a battery of four hispano5s.

8 hours ago, Ehret said:

 

Firepower is useless if you can not hit your targets reliably. Big caliber slow velocity guns are fine when you shot at big not maneuvering bombers. Against fighters? - quad 20mm will shred them in an instant too and you will have easier time getting a gun solution plus more ammo.

 Cannon doesn't mean low rate of fire. Russian, German and the British Hispano V cannons had very good fore rate for the time. Early drum fed cannons were bad, but that changed quickly.

Edited by Jaws2002
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US Ordnance Dept. has always had a terrible case of NIH disease. (Not Invented Here).  Especially in WW2 they were loath to use foreign equipment.  It's also why we ended up with the M14 rifle instead of the much superior FN FAL.

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59 minutes ago, BlitzPig_EL said:

US Ordnance Dept. has always had a terrible case of NIH disease. (Not Invented Here).  Especially in WW2 they were loath to use foreign equipment.  It's also why we ended up with the M14 rifle instead of the much superior FN FAL.

 

Outside of full auto, which the FN wins due to the pistol grip control, the M14 is a better shooting platform. Frankly, except for specific mission parameters, they are both poor weapons for modern combat anyway.

Edited by II/JG17_HerrMurf
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The Army has always paid too much attention to Camp Perry results over real field conditions.  IMHO of course.  An interesting discussion for sure, but also for another time and place.

 

👍

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On 3/27/2019 at 12:55 PM, SCG_ErwinP said:

IMO

I prefer FW overall. Best WWII German fighter plane ever made!

  • FW
    • Better armament (cannos near the fuselage - very accurate);
    • Better roll rate;
    • Handling;
    • B&Zer;
    • Better visibility;
    • Better ground attacker;
    • Fast pitch trim;
    • More damage resistant.
  • BF
    • Better climb rate;
    • Faster.

 

Yep...

 

wide landing gear coupled with it's easy to use tail locking, alongside the already mentioned better visibility, making it easier to take off, land and taxi are other plus points for the 190 over the 109.

Edited by Pict
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