Jump to content
Rattlesnake

How to get more simmers into WWI

Recommended Posts

Posted (edited)
6 hours ago, Feathered_IV said:

Make ten planes and one map, with no structure and a reliance on rinse/repeat action that lacks any context - You will not persuade a customer to buy.  Much less stick around.

 

That's easy enough for you to say when you don't have a very limited budget and time to concern yourself with. They are doing what they can with what they have right now. 

6 minutes ago, CanadaOne said:

Are there numbers that show the SP vs. MP ratio?

 

(Just curious. Don't want to start an argument.)

 

Yes, Jason recently posted that MP gamers make up only 5 percent of the player population here. 

Edited by LukeFF
  • Upvote 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)
29 minutes ago, CanadaOne said:

 

Are there numbers that show the SP vs. MP ratio?

 

(Just curious. Don't want to start an argument.)

 

Only the team know - but I seem to recall mention of Jason saying that it was in the order of 80/20 SP/MP or possibly more SP. [Edit - written before seeing LukeFF's post]. In terms of the forum noise and argument the ratio is reversed! ;)

 

Seriously though, I know of loads of successful SP games, and loads of successful MP games. Games that do both well are as rare as hen's teeth.  RoF and BoX nearly did both well, which is a huge credit to the team, but if they had only had to concentrate one or the other I expect the results would have been considerably better.

 

I can see the argument for using the same assets (maps, models, FMs etc) to sell to both markets, and perhaps in our small niche this is the right business case, but it is inevitable that there is some loss of focus. 

 

Edited by unreasonable
  • Upvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)

This is a good thread. 

 

TL;DR: To grow WW1 side we need: More advertising. Good SP. Modified distance only icons. Promote good community.

 

My comments are from the perspective of one who did not care about WW1 planes at all before ROF. I played Aces of the Pacific as a kid, that's it. Before ROF I hadn't even been a gamer for years. I now own 100% ROF and all of Il2 (almost) and have some pretty cool sim gear. (Minus $10,000 US)

 

Here's what brought me into simming/WW1:

 

  • Advertising. There was a sidebar add on the internet somewhere for ROF. “800 days to become a hero.” I kept seeing adds so I finally decided to see what it was. (I like history.)

  • Free test. I had an old joystick so after lurking the forums for a year, I finally tried the SPAD 13 training thing. FUN!

  • SP. You could almost relive the whole war as an aviator in career. Enough planes and maps. I started reading books and it got cooler and cooler.

  • Good community. Trupo, Hotlead, Bender, etc, took the edge of the learning curve. I read the forums on work breaks.

  • Later, had a blast in MP.

 

The bad that almost stopped me from coming or almost drove me away:

 

  • Spotting is hard without being fun. I'm not lazy, I'm busy IRL. Many months I get zero flight hours. Flying forever looking for dots, yay. 

    • There should be modified distance only icons. This seems simple to me. Icons ruin dogfights but pixel hunting is boring. Split the different, tun them off at medium range.

    • Wish there was 32x time acceleration for WW1 career. Again, busy not lazy.

  • A few know-it-alls or rude people can wreck the community but I see IL2 forums are better policed than ROF were.

  • People preaching the end of ROF/Flight sims made me nervous when I knew nothing in 2014. If I were to discuss moderator's actions, I would discuss muting the most negative voices. 

 

All that said, I think IL2 really looks like it's going in a great direction. If Flying Circus is on the same course, I just hope the devs advertise all of it a lot. IL2 Great Battles is excellent software and deserves that.

 

Ceowulf<><

 

Edited by Ceowulf
  • Like 1
  • Upvote 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, LukeFF said:

 

 

 

 

Yes, Jason recently posted that MP gamers make up only 5 percent of the player population here. 

 

Really? I thought it was about 20% or a bit more.

 

Thank you.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, LukeFF said:

 

That's easy enough for you to say when you don't have a very limited budget and time to concern yourself with. They are doing what they can with what they have right now. 

 

Yes, Jason recently posted that MP gamers make up only 5 percent of the player population here. 

Really? Can you link that post please.

  • Upvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 minutes ago, JonRedcorn said:

Really? Can you link that post please.

 

I would, but I cannot find it right now. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, unreasonable said:

It was harder to see in RoF because of the shotgun dispersion.

 

Edit: one thing that will not help get new users to a game is people spreading misinformation about it in the forum.

This is duble true!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, JonRedcorn said:

Really? Can you link that post please.

 

It was in the live chat interview in November 2017.  About 2/3 of the way through.  

  • Upvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8 hours ago, HiIIBiIIy said:

 

It's not a question of accuracy, it more of bullet drop not being modeled in ROF and FC. 


I've fired at ground targets and seen the bullets drop short. Got a bit closer and fired again, the bullets reached. So drop is modelled as far as I've seen.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)

Many things can be modeled. But to what extent?

Realistic Bullet ballistics (like in sniper elite 4)

Advanced damage model (like in car game beamng drive)

Accurate Flight physics (like DCS)

Terrain details/models/animation (like Verdun 1914-1918)

Atmosphere & Weather effects on flight 

Railway system

Single player story

Etc...

 

Can't model everything without sacrificing return on time investment, need to determine who is the intended audience to see which parts need to spend more time.

 

They can only put enough resources to satisfy one group: arcade crowd, casual crowd, diehard/sim crowd or RPG/sim crowd

Edited by yaan98

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)

Hillbilly is hoping for more bullet drop so that he'll miss his target and accidently hit an untapped reservoir of Crude Oil.  Texas Tea, that is.

 

 

🙂

Edited by SeaSerpent
  • Haha 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 hours ago, LukeFF said:

 

That's easy enough for you to say when you don't have a very limited budget and time to concern yourself with. They are doing what they can with what they have right now. 

 

 

Thats great, but the continued focus on maps and planes without the gameplay you can sell the product by will continue to draw only a small number of customers.  Flying Circus is not going to sell well. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Then they won't have to worry about the gameplay for FC2.  Of course, the gameplay for most people is shooting things down or blowing things up.  Will we be able to do those things in FC?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 hours ago, LukeFF said:

 Jason recently posted that MP gamers make up only 5 percent of the player population here. 

 

That needs to be qualified with an explanation of exactly how they arrive at that figure. As with any statistics, there are many ways of misinterpreting those they have available.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, Cynic_Al said:

 

That needs to be qualified with an explanation of exactly how they arrive at that figure. As with any statistics, there are many ways of misinterpreting those they have available.

 

No, it really doesn't.  It's probably pretty easy for them to see who has played on MP servers and who hasn't.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, BraveSirRobin said:

 

No, it really doesn't.  It's probably pretty easy for them to see who has played on MP servers and who hasn't.

 

Yes, but even a query as simple as that is open to interpretation. It could be that 95% bought a game module, tried it only in offline mode, didn't like it and never played again. An accurate figure would require more in-depth analysis.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, Cynic_Al said:

 

Yes, but even a query as simple as that is open to interpretation. It could be that 95% bought a game module, tried it only in offline mode, didn't like it and never played again. An accurate figure would require more in-depth analysis.

 

They're not curing cancer or trying to land on the Moon, so you really don't need that much precision.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Just now, BraveSirRobin said:

 

They're not curing cancer or trying to land on the Moon, so you really don't need that much precision.

 

Precision? I just explained why the method you suggested need have no accuracy whatever. I'd struggle to dumb things down for you further.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
13 minutes ago, Cynic_Al said:

 

Precision? I just explained why the method you suggested need have no accuracy whatever. I'd struggle to dumb things down for you further.

 

Don't sell yourself short.  You're actually outstanding at dumbing things down.

  • Thanks 1
  • Haha 4

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, SeaSerpent said:

Hillbilly is hoping for more bullet drop so that he'll miss his target and accidently hit an untapped reservoir of Crude Oil.  Texas Tea, that is.

 

 

🙂

No, just realistic bullet drop. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)

Your chart showed that a .303 drops 8 to 10 feet at 500 yards?  Are you absolutely sure that it isn't doing that?  I mean, if you are looking at a tank in your sight at that range, and open fire at that range, the appearance is going to be that it splashes into the dirt a little short.  What is your point of reference that the dropoff is innacurate?  Another factor of the perceived drop might be what the convergence range of the guns are set to in the first place.  I'm not discounting your observations out of hand, but I'm wondering what is your test case to confirm that you are correct?

 

Edited by SeaSerpent

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
55 minutes ago, BraveSirRobin said:

 

Don't sell yourself short.  You're actually outstanding at dumbing things down.

 

Well I must concede that you have been most illuminating in this sub-topic; now everyone knows exactly how much you know about statistical analysis.

4 hours ago, SeaSerpent said:

Hillbilly is hoping for more bullet drop so that he'll miss his target and accidently hit an untapped reservoir of Crude Oil.  Texas Tea, that is.

 

 

Well the next thing you know Hillbilly's a millionaire,

The RoF folk said 'hey move away from there',

They say Flying Circus is the place you ought to be,

So he pulled his credit card and wasted some money.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
22 minutes ago, Cynic_Al said:

 

Well I must concede that you have been most illuminating in this sub-topic; now everyone knows exactly how much you know about statistical analysis.

 

 

No, they don't.  I haven't said much of anything about statistical analysis other than you don't need to be very precise when talking about how people are using a video game.  5% is probably a rough guesstimate based on something he saw in a meeting.  He's not talking to stockholders, so there isn't any reason for him to go into further detail.  But if you think you're winning some sort of pedantic victory here, then you go right ahead and strut your stuff.  I'm pretty sure that everyone knows what you're really all about.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, SeaSerpent said:

Your chart showed that a .303 drops 8 to 10 feet at 500 yards

Apparent you don't know how to read a chart. So the rest of your comments has merit.  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)
48 minutes ago, HiIIBiIIy said:

Apparent you don't know how to read a chart. So the rest of your comments has merit.  

 

What's wrong with my read of your chart?  And do you mean my comments have merit, or that they have no merit?  I read the chart you presented to say that the bullet drops 100 inches (8.3 feet) at 500 yards.  If that isn't the correct read of the chart, please clarify how much the bullet drops at 500 yards.  Unless I've made a gross error (I'm only human, and errors are not unknown to me), I see no reason to step away from my previous post.  Even if I've misread your chart, I'd still like to hear how you are going about measuring the accuracy of gunnery within the sim itself to conclude that it's modelled incorrectly.   Tell us how you reach your conclusions.

Edited by SeaSerpent

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

There's really nothing to be argued about here with bullet drop - it exists for every weapon and every caliber in the game, and thus HillBilly doesn't know what he's talking about.

 

6 hours ago, Feathered_IV said:

Thats great, but the continued focus on maps and planes without the gameplay you can sell the product by will continue to draw only a small number of customers.  Flying Circus is not going to sell well. 

 

In case you haven't noticed, WWI flight sims have always had a smaller draw than other combat flight sims. If they could upgrade all of the old ROF content at once, they would, but they obviously cannot.

 

But sure, continue taking swipes at the developers and their strategy of marketing and developing these games. That's a surefire way to ensure there never is a FC Vol. 2. 

  • Thanks 1
  • Upvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Well, this is a thread asking how to attract more people to buy Flying Circus.  I’m interested in the WW1 air war and single player flight sims too.  I don’t own FC as I’m not really sure it has any of the features I am looking for   But I’m here.  So come on. Here’s your chance with a real live customer of the 95% variety.  Convince me.  

  • Thanks 1
  • Upvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Feathered_IV said:

 

 

2 hours ago, Feathered_IV said:

Well, this is a thread asking how to attract more people to buy Flying Circus.  I’m interested in the WW1 air war and single player flight sims too.  I don’t own FC as I’m not really sure it has any of the features I am looking for   But I’m here.  So come on. Here’s your chance with a real live customer of the 95% variety.  Convince me.  

think You dont want at all to be convinced.

 

6 years on forum And 4500+ posts...

I'm not sure if You are at all intersested in flying but rather in discussing, complaining, arguing so maybe a congress/court/talk show simulator would be better for You ;)

 

Both Rof and now  FC with even better visuals give a really good feeling of flight for light machines. The aerobatics are pure fun And joy. In case someone is into single player (And doesnt like Stock Rof camp) immersion can use Pat Wilsons superb tool (which is also promoted by Jason). I dont know if theres already a campaign for FC but since its still in early access for sure there will be one . If one want a challange theres MP, which will grow when the product will be finished (map, two seaters...)

 

Anyway some people will never be satysfied And will always complain.

 

Theres One thing i cant understand. If someone doesnt like a product, And Has no intetion to buy one. Why he is constatly showing up on that product forum and trying to discourage othlockquote widget

  • Sad 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, Carl_infar said:

 

think You dont want at all to be convinced.

 

6 years on forum And 4500+ posts...

I'm not sure if You are at all intersested in flying but rather in discussing, complaining, arguing so maybe a congress/court/talk show simulator would be better for You ;)

 

Both Rof and now  FC with even better visuals give a really good feeling of flight for light machines. The aerobatics are pure fun And joy. In case someone is into single player (And doesnt like Stock Rof camp) immersion can use Pat Wilsons superb tool (which is also promoted by Jason). I dont know if theres already a campaign for FC but since its still in early access for sure there will be one . If one want a challange theres MP, which will grow when the product will be finished (map, two seaters...)

 

Anyway some people will never be satysfied And will always complain.

 

Theres One thing i cant understand. If someone doesnt like a product, And Has no intetion to buy one. Why he is constatly showing up on that product forum and trying to discourage othlockquote widget

 

Because he (and so do I) believes in improvement, and not in perpetual reiteration?

  • Upvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Feathered_IV said:

Well, this is a thread asking how to attract more people to buy Flying Circus.  I’m interested in the WW1 air war and single player flight sims too.  I don’t own FC as I’m not really sure it has any of the features I am looking for   But I’m here.  So come on. Here’s your chance with a real live customer of the 95% variety.  Convince me.  

 

If you're into WW1 flight sim as a hobby, then buying most of them on the market is what I would do and did but over the years. Each provides a satisfaction different from the other. Unless you're financially constrained then obviously you can't buy it.

 

FC at this stage is similar to participation in a beta of a game. If you're into seeing the latest technology from these devs (VR/new game engine) and don't mind an incomplete single player experience, then this is your chance. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
43 minutes ago, Picchio said:

 

Because he (and so do I) believes in improvement, and not in perpetual reiteration?

 

3 hours ago, Feathered_IV said:

Well, this is a thread asking how to attract more people to buy Flying Circus.  I’m interested in the WW1 air war and single player flight sims too.  I don’t own FC as I’m not really sure it has any of the features I am looking for   But I’m here.  So come on. Here’s your chance with a real live customer of the 95% variety.  Convince me.  

 

This is true that some futures could be upgraded not just copied and adjusted to fit to the new tech. But the resources allowed only for that sadly. When they have time and other means I think they can redesign: adding coop to the campaign, no need to restart game to enter mods on mode and use same browser plus automatic mods download, add lobby to the coop mode - which is dead now, improve FC  damage model  to the Il2-GB planes standards (for example: control cables). Introduce engine modifications to FC. Introduce FC campaign. Just top form my head.

 

If you want all that please buy FC , no money - no new futures to old stuff and no new things too.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)

Finally got my brother to begin the process by purchasing the base game (BoS). That wasn't going to happen when we saw the steam price (£40!, lol). Then I wondered if IL2.com had a sale on...$17, yay! He's waiting for his account registration to send a confirmation to his email. But $70 for FC, I won't repeat what he said to that but then I pointed out it would be on sale at some point down the road after it comes out of EA. Until then he's going to crew up with me in a Stuka.

 

This might be interesting, having just thought of it, my brother's thought/reaction...having been trying to persuade him to get into it, he saw the price for the module (FC) and was "wtf!". When I then pointed out he'd need BoS also his reaction was "That's totally taking the piss". So I mentioned how they did it with RoF, provided the base game with two decent planes for free. That met with his approval, especially while he mentioned the additional costs of hardware if the player wanted to be a pilot rather than a crewman (mouse and keyboard being the only requirement for that).

Thinking of all that and using him as a marketing yardstick, one might see where things are not going to go well with sales. As soon as an interested person looks deeper into it and immediately finds they have to buy TWO games, that's where most walk away I think.

Edit: I've been told that BoS is required as a base game only on Steam, otherwise it's not required.

 

Edited by Uffz-Prien

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 hours ago, LukeFF said:

 

But sure, continue taking swipes at the developers and their strategy of marketing and developing these games. That's a surefire way to ensure there never is a FC Vol. 2. 

 I don't know if that was a broadly targeted, including what I wrote above, but I don't mean to take shots at the Devs at all.  I am stoked about FC and the whole Great Battles development path.  These are the most responsive Devs I've been around.  

 

I do not know their constraints but I do know that their previous marketing efforts for ROF made a non simmer and non gamer into one.  Their advertising found me, recruited me, and I built a system, bought cool sim gear, and happily gave them hundreds of dollars until now.  I will happily give them hundreds more.  One advertisement caught my eye.  "800 days to become a hero."  A few other adds made sure I didn't forget and here I am, one of their thousands of addicts.  

 

I wish I saw IL2 around the internet more.  I wish someone I talked to in real life one time knew what it was but not from me.  I wonder if it could be advertised more or differently.  

 

Again, though, my question is from wanting more success for the series and therefore the devs.  

 

Ceowulf<><

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)
5 hours ago, Ceowulf said:

 I don't know if that was a broadly targeted, including what I wrote above, but I don't mean to take shots at the Devs at all.  I am stoked about FC and the whole Great Battles development path.  These are the most responsive Devs I've been around.  

 

I do not know their constraints but I do know that their previous marketing efforts for ROF made a non simmer and non gamer into one.  Their advertising found me, recruited me, and I built a system, bought cool sim gear, and happily gave them hundreds of dollars until now.  I will happily give them hundreds more.  One advertisement caught my eye.  "800 days to become a hero."  A few other adds made sure I didn't forget and here I am, one of their thousands of addicts.  

 

I wish I saw IL2 around the internet more.  I wish someone I talked to in real life one time knew what it was but not from me.  I wonder if it could be advertised more or differently.  

 

Again, though, my question is from wanting more success for the series and therefore the devs.  

 

Ceowulf<><


Making the base-game free, that would suck a lot of people in. They try it, love it, then they start spending. As it stands, anyone who sees an ad, looks into it (the non-base modules, such as tanks or WW1), then spots the need to buy two games, that's when most lose interest. If I wanted only the tanks or WW1 or the western ToE, seeing $70 AND then the regular price for BoS...nope, I'd walk (if I was a non-simmer to start with).

 

Edit: I've been told that BoS is required as a base game only on Steam, otherwise it's not required.

Edited by Uffz-Prien

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It's a bit late now perhaps, and the Devs. may not ever wish to go down this route, but since FC is getting dripped out over a period of time why not offer a six month Direct Debit payment option ?

 

At least then potential punters would get some sense of getting what they're paying for, and it would make the game accessible to some who otherwise wouldn't be able to buy it at this time.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)

@Uffz-PrienTo your point- I got sucked in by the free Spad and then bought a couple more.  Now I’ll buy any plane they make.   

 

Maybe a 90 day money back would do the same but I doubt it.  

 

Only trouble with free Spad is:   “How start plane?    I press E not work.   Game SUX!!!!!!”

 

Ceowulf<><   

Edited by Ceowulf

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, Ceowulf said:

To your point- I got sucked in by the free Spad and then bought a couple more.  Now I’ll buy any plane they make.   

 

Maybe a 90 day money back would do the same but I doubt it.  

 

Only trouble with free Spad is:   “How start plane?    I press E not work.   Game SUX!!!!!!”

 

Ceowulf<><   

 

I agree the Spad maybe isn't the best free Entente plane to put up, but the old "How to start engine" routine is really down to the mentality of people who think the best place for their 1st go is a MP server.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 minutes ago, Zooropa_Fly said:

 

I agree the Spad maybe isn't the best free Entente plane to put up, but the old "How to start engine" routine is really down to the mentality of people who think the best place for their 1st go is a MP server.

 

That's a tough one. The average FPS player, for example, is mostly driven by multi-player these days so its a logical course for them to check out the multiplayer. The philosophy I try and get across to people is to check things out in the QMB first. Spend some time doing the silly things. Crashing into stuff. Whatever it takes to get accustomed and only then jump into multiplayer and prepare to get yourself blasted from the sky repeatedly.

 

It's a tough genre to get into. Still, I've seen from my anecdotal and heavily biased viewpoint, an influx for both of the big combat flight sims recently and that gives me some hope that people are interested in a deeper experience and maybe less interested in the rat race of the standard AAA title. There's inevitably going to be some folks who jump in to multiplayer and I think the only thing we can do is take a breath, roll up our sleeves, and try and do our level best to help them get going. Maybe we can all take turns :)

  • Upvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 minutes ago, ShamrockOneFive said:

It's a tough genre to get into. 

 

 

People like you do a lot to fix that, keep it up.

 

S!

Ceowulf<><

  • Thanks 1
  • Upvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

About the "only 5% online" part, it would be actually interesting to have a bit more understanding what Jason meant by that, especially when people on forums throw that figure around to make a point how overwhelmingly  more popular single player is compared to multiplayer. I find that figure really surprising, so would be interesting to know what that number really represents, even if I do not expect any explanation about it. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.

×
×
  • Create New...