Jump to content
HenFre

Do you fly aerobatics?

Recommended Posts

On ‎4‎/‎4‎/‎2019 at 4:06 PM, IckyATLAS said:

I did aerobatics in the real life and have a licence for that.

 

Have you tried to do a snap roll in the game? Is it done like IRL? I have been practicing this maneuver for a while now and I simply cannot nail it. I can per luck perhaps perform it occasionally, but when I try to mimic what I did it just isn't possible. I simply do not know why sometimes the snap comes easy and other times I keep stalling out at the end of the maneuver. Have you got any advice?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)

Geez! I came in here to answer because I thought you meant airbatics in real life!

On 4/4/2019 at 10:06 AM, IckyATLAS said:

I did aerobatics in the real life and have a licence for that

You don't need any endorsements or special licenses to fly airbatics in the U.S. I've done it in a Citabria and in my Sonex. 

Edited by Poochnboo

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 hours ago, Diggun said:

Hmmm..... Interesting...

1 hour ago, Poochnboo said:

Geez! I came in here to answer because I thought you meant airbatics in real life!

You don't need any endorsements or special licenses to fly airbatics in the U.S. I've done it in a Citabria and in my Sonex. 

In Switzerland to be allowed to fly solo aerobatics and have a passenger for an aerobatic flight you need to have a licence. If you own your private plane things may be different, but I flew club planes that are on hire so the club rules apply and no licence means no solo aerobatics. So you have to pass an exam once your instructor gives the green light. The exam (an aresti program given) is a full aerobatic program that is done in a 1km cube box. You have to fly the full program twice, once left hand and once right hand.You are chronometered and you must finish the program in a very limited time, this is because you have to chain all the figures in a continuous flow. The examinators are on the ground and judge your performance and either you pass or fail. They put a rating but it is nor disclosed to you. In short it is very similar to an aerobatics competition event, except that you have no other competitors, you fly to beat yourself. Excellent training for split seconds decisions making.

 

6 hours ago, HenFre said:

 

Have you tried to do a snap roll in the game? Is it done like IRL? I have been practicing this maneuver for a while now and I simply cannot nail it. I can per luck perhaps perform it occasionally, but when I try to mimic what I did it just isn't possible. I simply do not know why sometimes the snap comes easy and other times I keep stalling out at the end of the maneuver. Have you got any advice?

Snap roll are delicate figures because it is what I say a forced horizontal high speed roll.  You force with a quick and brutal maneuver at high speed one of the wings to stall and thus induce the roll. You force the plane to do something he normally would not do.  I have not tried in IL2 to see if the physical modeling allows this but I will try. There are some figures like the Lomcovak which I do not find natural and aesthetic for a plane. Sure you can do these figures that can also be called a tie knot,  and others that have your plane do a ruade with the tail looping top front, a kind of tumbling, other make their plane behave like an helicopter with vertical torque rolls etc. but I do not like at all this. I prefer open and large radius figures with some nice geometry, where the plane really flies in a continuous and harmonious motion.  All the rest is a kind of extravaganza. After all if you have enough horsepower you even don't need wings to fly.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
19 hours ago, IckyATLAS said:

I have not tried in IL2 to see if the physical modeling allows this but I will try.

 

Looking forward to your feedback on this.

 

19 hours ago, IckyATLAS said:

I prefer open and large radius figures with some nice geometry, where the plane really flies in a continuous and harmonious motion.  All the rest is a kind of extravaganza.

 

I totally agree with you. The only reason that I wanted to learn the Snap roll is because it is a maneuver that I see used quite a lot in competition aerobatics.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, HenFre said:

 

I totally agree with you. The only reason that I wanted to learn the Snap roll is because it is a maneuver that I see used quite a lot in competition aerobatics.

 

Yep - keep in mind these are extremely lightweight, bare bones aerobatic oriented aircraft.

Rotating mass along the roll axis much, much less than a WWII fighter.

Early Russian fighters are almost aerobatic planes compared to the German aircraft, very dynamic by comparison.

 

An Oscar or even a Zeke should be able to do a fair "competition-like"  snap roll.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 4/5/2019 at 10:43 PM, IckyATLAS said:

I prefer open and large radius figures with some nice geometry, where the plane really flies in a continuous and harmonious motion.

 

But... you get quickly bored :ph34r:

 

 

4 hours ago, HenFre said:

that I see used quite a lot in competition aerobatics.

 

Where and which level?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
14 hours ago, Gambit21 said:

Early Russian fighters are almost aerobatic planes compared to the German aircraft, very dynamic by comparison.

 

I have done a Snap roll in the Bf 109 E-7, but I just haven't been able to do them very often. It seems that you have a very small gab, where the maneuver will work and that gab is very hard to hit every time, if not impossible.

 

13 hours ago, F/JG300_Faucon said:

Where and which level?

 

I have just browsed different Aresti notations. By level do you mean category? If so it is very seldomly writen on the notations that I have been able to find on the internet.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I tried snap rolling with the E-7 lately, seems to be alot harder to do than with the F-4... same movements where the F-4 snaps, the E-7 just slowly does a barrel roll... maybe because the F-4s engine is much stronger?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Gambit21 comment is absolutely correct. Let's give some numbers and put things in perspective with two top planes of their time

 

The P51D had a maximum gross weight of 12'300 pounds. But let's consider a normal weight in flying conditions with pilot, fuel and its internal armament aka machine-guns.

No external drop tanks, bombs etc. That "standard operational"  loaded weight is around 9000 pounds. The Merlin engine was capable of 1315 hp continuous power.

This gives us a power to mass ratio of 0.14. The P51 could sustain an absolute maximum around +/-9G, but in its streamlined version, and this was a kind of maximum structural load.

This means that the wings (those little and very flat "laminar flow" thin appendices) had to sustain 81'000 pounds of load at 9G. That is 37 tons, or 7 tons more than a battle ready Sherman Tank. A remarkable feat with the materials of the time. The machine-guns and belt ammo feed would probably be jammed after such aerobatics. 

Another criteria is wing-loading. The P51D had about 191 kg/m2 in normal loading. At maximum take-off load the wing-load was of 251 kg/m2. This high wing-load could  in fact induce some unwanted snap rolls in fighter planes when maneuvering , because adding little additional load on a wing on an already much loaded one will go for a wing stall, if speeds and angle of attack AOA are not carefully considered. But I digress here. So consider you do the snap roll and brutally you have your 9000 pounds that do a quick rotation with high lateral G forces. You can have now a better feeling of all these tons of steel being stressed.

 

If we take a modern aerobatic plane like the ones we see in the Red Bull competition then how this compares. I have taken the MXS- RH which is one of the top thoroughbred plane like the P51D mustang was at its time.

 

It has a Lycoming engine with 380hp. The plane flies with a "competition weight" of 1550 pounds. This is a power to mass ratio of 0.25. This is 166% higher. It can sustain +/- 16G, which is remarkable. But the material here is all composite extremely strong materials. This means that this plane can continuously live at 9G (we speak here machines and not pilots which would be long dead) and not feel it whereas the P51D was at his limits, and should not do it for long. At 9G the MXS-RH has to withstand a structural load of 13'950 pounds, a little over the maximum gross weight of the Mustang, and corresponding to about 6 tons. The wing-load here is about 74 kg/m2. This is less than half of the normal mustang wing load, and less that a third of the maximum load.

 

So pulling snap rolls on a structure like the MXS-RH is something you can do day long. On a P51 mustang that's a completely different story.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 hours ago, HenFre said:

I have just browsed different Aresti notations. By level do you mean category? If so it is very seldomly writen on the notations that I have been able to find on the internet.

 

Sportsman, Intermediate, Advanced and Unlimited. 

But countries can choose to have more for their national. In France for example we have 6 level (including Advanced and Unlimited categories).

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 4/6/2019 at 10:59 PM, F/JG300_Faucon said:

 

But... you get quickly bored :ph34r:

 

It depends what you are looking for, and it is different if you are in the pilot seat or on the ground. For a pure show display it may not be too exciting. People that in general do not know about aerobatics, want to be thrilled and it is ok for that. On those occasions you can do all the weird things that your plane can safely do. So here you have to know perfectly your plane.

I  did not have to do that for a living, so I am happy not to have to be like in a washing machine tumbler. But if you look for the geometrical precision of figures,  the perfection of the plane motion in the sky, then even what seems a simple looping (positive G) can be difficult. But you have to appreciate that, it is a different type of thrill.  You have to start looking and some elements:

  • The entry altitude exactly the same as the exit altitude and situated exactly at the same point in space, and on a perfect horizontal line. 
  • The perfect circularity of the figure.
  • The constant speed as you run through the loop.
  • The planeity of the circle. I mean the fact that the circle must be inscribed in a perfectly vertical plane.

I trained a lot on this simple figure and believe me perfection is very difficult (I am honest I never attained it). One element that creates problems is the wind that can make you drift as you do the figure and distorts it.

When you are in the cockpit you do not see the looping geometrical figure, but you physically feel it (speeds, g forces etc..), see from the plane perspective (wings orientation, nose direction etc.) the environment, and hear it (engine noise, airflow sound). From the way you feel, hear  and what you see you can pretty well know if it is good or bad. It is important to have good visual clues references in your environment to fine tune the attitude. All this to say that what seems simple can be pretty difficult to master.

Now that you are good at it time to do the inverted loop (negative G), have fun 🙂 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, IckyATLAS said:

It depends what you are looking for

 

2 hours ago, IckyATLAS said:

I  did not have to do that for a living, so I am happy not to have to be like in a washing machine tumbler.

 

Sure we agree every aerobatic pilots are enjoying in a different way, with different type of aircrafts.

 

2 hours ago, IckyATLAS said:

I trained a lot on this simple figure and believe me perfection is very difficult (I am honest I never attained it).

 

Oh god I know what you are talking about... Because in fact, I'm doing unlimited competitions and the "99% perfection" is the only thing that can put you at the top. 

 

Still great to "meet" another aerobatic pilot on an IL2 forum. 

Which aircraft(s) are you flying?

Edited by F/JG300_Faucon

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I have stopped flying now,  but for many years I flew with a CAP 10 C which is the carbon version. I also flew some more military style aerobatics with a much heavier all metal, older military plane, the Pilatus P3-05. I loved that one where I put many hours in it. You fly ballistic aerobatics. This means you have to use accumulated energy much more than a CAP 10 which is a very light aircraft. The P3 has a Vne of 500 km/hr so you can really build up energy. Pretty expensive to fly, but is extremely precise in its trajectories, like a Swiss watch. If you look at my Thumbnail picture, it's me flying the P3 with the passenger behind me taking the picture.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 4/3/2019 at 5:02 PM, Diggun said:

We need a team of a20's......

 

Oh yesss, definitely! The guys from Australia are already on their way, as one can easily see here:

 

 

20.JPG

  • Like 2
  • Haha 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)
On 4/3/2019 at 5:02 PM, Diggun said:

We need a team of a20's......

 

Ok, here is my suggestion:

 

Why don´t we just jump into our beloved A-20s for a fly out so we can find out whether Havoc-aerobatics are fun?

Let´s meet up at the Training Server 72AG today at around UTC 19:00 and try a river race for a start.

It is not really a race as such. The goal is flying as low as possible, as close to each other as possible doing tree dodging and not crash.

The speed is moderate, at around 200 mph.

 

Please refer to the pictures for more detailed information.

 

To make it more interesting, I started creating skins for the A-20, air-racey-style-skins to be precise. Please see link for download.

 

https://forum.il2sturmovik.com/topic/35456-a-20b-skins/page/3/?tab=comments#comment-774396

 

The ones for Australia and France are ready, more skins are planned for Canada, Russia, The US, The UK and others.

 

Does this sound interesting? I´m looking forward to fly with you guys, anybody planning wearing DDs? :lol:

 

 

 

1.JPG

 

2.JPG

 

3.JPG

Edited by =RR=ROCKET_KNUT
  • Upvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'd love to do this, unfortunately I'm obliged to Be Sociable this evening. If you guys set up a discord, I'd love to join!

  • Haha 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I am just new to the current IL2 versions, but in the 1946 (PAF) IL2 time years ago there were some nice (3rd party made ?) stunting missions one could play racing through canyons etc.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I read about a pilot in US normally flying P 51 for a foundation. He said he flew P 40 when he wanted to have fun. 

I wonder if a P 40 in altitude airshows are displayed is a better airshow plane? 

I got the feeling that was what he ment by it, but cant be sure

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
12 minutes ago, LuseKofte said:

I read about a pilot in US normally flying P 51 for a foundation. He said he flew P 40 when he wanted to have fun. 

I wonder if a P 40 in altitude airshows are displayed is a better airshow plane? 

I got the feeling that was what he ment by it, but cant be sure

 

Maybe its just easier to throw around, for those fun Stall turns and wing overs, and low speed manoeuvres 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

@F/JG300_Faucon

Guess you can say that you have a home side advantage when flying Aerobatics  :good:

Edited by HenFre

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It seems like not many people noticed, but there is a world champion in this community.

 

CONGRATULATIONS FAUCON!

 

  • Like 1
  • Thanks 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
23 hours ago, F/JG300_Faucon said:

 

Sorry I'm not sure to understand what you mean 

 

4 of the 5 Winners are from France!! The competition was held in France. Ergo homeside advantage. I know it was far fetched :wacko:

  • Haha 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 hours ago, FMF-Tommy544 said:

Congratulations @F/JG300_Faucon! That is a big big dream not only for me, but I'm sure for many members of this community as well. :)

 

Thank you! 

When I was young, just flying aerobatics IRL was already a big dream. I remember it when I was starting to fly the old IL2 Pacific fighters :biggrin:

  • Like 1
  • Upvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, F/JG300_Faucon said:

 

Thank you! 

When I was young, just flying aerobatics IRL was already a big dream. I remember it when I was starting to fly the old IL2 Pacific fighters :biggrin:

I'm really busy in Toulouse for the delivery of our first A350 so I did not have time to congrats you.
Even if I was away I've managed to follow the competition from where I am and I just really want to say well done !!! 

 

Au top Louis, je savais que tu y arriverai ! ;)

  • Thanks 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

×
×
  • Create New...