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Gunner Problem

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Just now, =FEW=N3croo said:

thats the issue as it stand if ppl wanna balance we got difficulties, sadly the top 2 are aimbots the bottom 2 dont know which end of the gun to use.

 

Even the bottom 2 configurations (like on TAW) can completely destroy you in an inhumane fashion.

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Unfortunalelly I did not record it but on this TAW my squad were just said to ignore P2. I mention P2 because we flought blue side, not because I want to claim P2 discussion. 

We ignore to attack bombers because sometimes we attack like 3 or 4 one singel bomber and He hit all of us taking down most of us. I was the only one who survived this because I was doing really long shots from vertical attacs, even like that I was hit as well couple of times. 

 

The thing that impresed me more is when I was on his 3 far from him. On this position he wsa on straight line and he rolled his plane showing the ventral gunner. On this moove the ventral gunner shot me from fat hitting me...

 

I was hit as well by the ventral gunner once I attacked on frontal pass A P2 . When i Overshoot him with at least 500 +600 km/h difference The ventral gunner was like waiting knowing exactly when and where I was going to overshot and he just manage to Hit me as well. 

 

 

 

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1 hour ago, E69_geramos109 said:

 

I was hit as well by the ventral gunner once I attacked on frontal pass A P2 . When i Overshoot him with at least 500 +600 km/h difference The ventral gunner was like waiting knowing exactly when and where I was going to overshot and he just manage to Hit me as well. 

 

 

 

I've had this same issue with 111s, 88s, and 110s in multiplayer as well as vs. Pe-2 in single player.  It's one of the main issues I have with the AI gunners.  It's almost as if the pilot says "Ventral gunner, aim at 7 o'clock and prepare to fire.  ....NOW!".   Of course we have no verbal communication with the AI gunners in the plane unlike real life, where to whole crew would be talking and working together, but it seems the AI is still able to use the vision of all the bomber's stations (pilot and gunners) to track the enemy. 

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14 minutes ago, =EXPEND=SchwarzeDreizehn said:

 

 

 

 

 

No gunner was hurt in the making of this video!

 

As a matter of fact, not even wounded

 

http://il2stat.aviaskins.com:8008/de/sortie/log/4194290/?tour=46

 

 

 

Many times I saw fireballs exploded at top of gunners head (like above videos) 

 in il2s or Pe2s but gunners were just fine shooting back at me....

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I think its about HE ammunition doing nearly zero damage to human models. You can also see it when you put 20 HE rounds into a stalling aircraft for example.

 

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46 minutes ago, 307_Tomcat said:

Many times I saw fireballs exploded at top of gunners head (like above videos) 

 in il2s or Pe2s but gunners were just fine shooting back at me....

Seen that too, many times.

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1 hour ago, Operation_Ivy said:

I think its about HE ammunition doing nearly zero damage to human models. You can also see it when you put 20 HE rounds into a stalling aircraft for example.

 

 

I suspect it may be because the HE is modeled as a number of splinters, probably a fairly small number, for obvious reasons.  If they shoot out from the detonation location in a sphere or wide cone, the probability of a human taking a hit is related to the aspect area of the human compared to the area of the sphere/cone at the range at which the human is located from the detonation.

 

With a small number of fragments the probability of none of them hitting the human is still high enough that you will observe this often, even if the hit is close.  Humans can be killed by HE splinters - if they hit - as I have observed in testing.  But it is odd that in this game a (non-self sealing) human seems to be less vulnerable to splinter hits than a self sealing fuel tank: another thing about the DM in BoX that seems off to me.

 

 

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20 hours ago, Operation_Ivy said:

I think its about HE ammunition doing nearly zero damage to human models. You can also see it when you put 20 HE rounds into a stalling aircraft for example.

 

True, to the contrary I noticed that P40 50s are very deadly to the  pilot , if you aim well  it ends very often with PK.

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Posted (edited)
On 3/31/2019 at 3:47 PM, Operation_Ivy said:

I think its about HE ammunition doing nearly zero damage to human models. You can also see it when you put 20 HE rounds into a stalling aircraft for example.

 

 

Not only humans but pretty much anything except the fuel tanks...

Blast 30 rounds at the cockpit? Yak has fuel leak

Round to the tail? Yak leaks fuel

Head on engine hits -> fuel leak

Edited by =EXPEND=SchwarzeDreizehn

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On the test of the Mk108 over an spitfire. After the hit on the Wing.( middle of the wing not the root)

More than 50 fracments were found in to the cockpit. So that would result on at least minimum of a pilot very woulded being optimistic. Here i manage to hit a lot of times very close to the cockpit with 20mm and 30mm without the pilot being killed. On the other hand. AP shells are very deadly against pilots.

 

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It's not just aircraft gunners. Its all forms of AI gunnery. Anti Air are definitely included in this issue. Being sniped by ground units when diving at 800kph is just ridiculous.

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Both the aimbots manning all guns and the fact that HE damage isn’t realistic should be looked at. I wonder how effective tank guns firing HE will be to infantry..

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On ‎4‎/‎3‎/‎2019 at 1:07 PM, Bullets said:

It's not just aircraft gunners. Its all forms of AI gunnery. Anti Air are definitely included in this issue. Being sniped by ground units when diving at 800kph is just ridiculous.

 

About the only way to dive at 700-800kph over AA is to either dive straight at the gun, having little control and in a predictable path or dive through the crossfire, having little control and in a predictable path.  A lot of times making control-stiffening passes like that takes away the ability to sufficiently dodge.  All the AI has to do is aim in front of the flight path and let the plane fly through the bullet stream.  It doesn't even have to turn much to "follow through" if all it needs to do is lay down a bullet stream at a more-or-less fixed point in front of the airplane. 

Trust me, it comes down to luck.  Even a screaming Pe-2 dive at 700kph is still subject to getting obliterated - even though the Pe-2 has very good rudder and elevator response at those speeds.  Sometimes, you just can't dodge it all.  Failing to stick to the deck until out of (fast-firing) AA range is also a big mistake.

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Stop putting jedi master on gunner seat, or stop using force to aim.get out of the gunner seat jedi:hunter:

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On 4/1/2019 at 6:06 PM, 307_Tomcat said:

True, to the contrary I noticed that P40 50s are very deadly to the  pilot , if you aim well  it ends very often with PK.

Because .50 in bos only have ap rounds

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Posted (edited)
20 hours ago, III./JG5_seaflanker819 said:

Because .50 in bos only have ap rounds

Ap rounds are still too powefull on the game on the current Dm. I will made a video about that "again" to prove it. They obliterate what it is on the trajectory and if it misses to a complete useless part of the plane they still make damage. 

For example you can still ripp of wings even if you dont hit the longeron 

Edited by E69_geramos109

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Posted (edited)

After having had my engine killed by l@ser-gunners in an offline campaign (play the mission five times to progress once), I'm kind of inclined to agree.

Please fix the gunners.

 

What they're doing now is instant-tracking and instant Kentucky windage.

I think good results can be achieved by adding time-delay, blind-zones and random accuracy (spread) factors.

 

The way they work right now, attacking IL-2 formations from any other direction than head-on (delta-v doesn't matte from any different direction anyway) is almost impossible without having your engines shot-up instantly. That's not historical.

Yes, a couple of german planes were zapped by the gunners IRL (like possibly Otto Kittel), but there were also a number of german aces that have racked up an impressive score of IL-2s* and that included pilots flying Messerschmitts with supposedly look-to-kill cooling-systems.

 

___

* I'm just picking out IL-2s here for the sake of simplicity.

Edited by Bremspropeller

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Again we need to know what level the AI gunners in question are set to? 

 

Cheers, Dakpilot 

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1 hour ago, Dakpilot said:

Again we need to know what level the AI gunners in question are set to? 

 

Doesn't matter. Any "ace" gunner shouldn't magically become a Death Star L@zer Turret operator.

He should just be less bad than a novice gunner.

 

There is no reason to defy humanly possible performance by just labelling it "ace".

 

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The other day I was hit by a Gunner

Was hilarious. I shoot them and he crashed on the ground. While he was spining and rolling while desintegrating on the ground he managed to hit me. That just makes no sense on any kind of IA

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Posted (edited)
On 4/21/2019 at 11:06 AM, Bremspropeller said:

I think good results can be achieved by adding time-delay, blind-zones and random accuracy (spread) factors.

I agree with some reservations. Just anecdotal, but still interesting IMO:

 

I was attacking an AI He-111-16 with a P-40 (4 Browning config). 1.3 km from exactly six, co-alt, 200 kph closing speed, the most suicidal attack you can imagine.

Both the ventral and the dorsal gunner started firing at me from 1000 m. I was under fire for altogether 15 secs. The Heinkel made just small evasive maneuvres, so I had to adjust my aim slightly, but otherwise I was flying straight and level all the way. I was hit two times, once on each wing, suffering insignificant damage.

I fired short bursts from 600 to 200 m. I hit the rear part of the fuselage several times, also killing the pilot from behind. None of the much more exposed gunners were hit or suppressed.

Once close enough, I flew by the damaged bomber at a distance of 100 m to the right, co-alt, with a speed advantage of 200-250 kph. Meanwhile the bomber was turning left with its dead pilot. At the moment I entered the firing arc of the waist gunner, he sniped into my engine from 90 degrees, causing an instant engine fire.

 

I know it cannot be generalized, but in this particular case it seemed to me that

(1) novice gunners are crap as long as they aim "normally";

(2) gunners are better protected from behind than the pilot is;

(3) the waist gunner had a superhuman luck when he chose the right MG on the right side and when he made that precise high-angle deflection shot into a near target just entering his field of fire with a relative speed of 200 to 250 kph.

 

Edited by sniperton

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Gunners not being killed is definitely something that is happening. I don't think I've ever killed a gunner even after watching stuff explode in his face, yet my pilot gets sniped no problem from just about any angle.

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15 hours ago, sniperton said:

I agree with some reservations. Just anecdotal, but still interesting IMO:

 

I was attacking an AI He-111-16 with a P-40 (4 Browning config). 1.3 km from exactly six, co-alt, 200 kph closing speed, the most suicidal attack you can imagine.

Both the ventral and the dorsal gunner started firing at me from 1000 m. I was under fire for altogether 15 secs. The Heinkel made just small evasive maneuvres, so I had to adjust my aim slightly, but otherwise I was flying straight and level all the way. I was hit two times, once on each wing, suffering insignificant damage.

I fired short bursts from 600 to 200 m. I hit the rear part of the fuselage several times, also killing the pilot from behind. None of the much more exposed gunners were hit or suppressed.

Once close enough, I flew by the damaged bomber at a distance of 100 m to the right, co-alt, with a speed advantage of 200-250 kph. Meanwhile the bomber was turning left with its dead pilot. At the moment I entered the firing arc of the waist gunner, he sniped into my engine from 90 degrees, causing an instant engine fire.

 

I know it cannot be generalized, but in this particular case it seemed to me that

(1) novice gunners are crap as long as they aim "normally";

(2) gunners are better protected from behind than the pilot is;

(3) the waist gunner had a superhuman luck when he chose the right MG on the right side and when he made that precise high-angle deflection shot into a near target just entering his field of fire with a relative speed of 200 to 250 kph.

 

 

Just remember that a given target at 100m is 10 times the size of the same target at 1000m, so other things being equal you were always ten times as likely to be hit at this range.

 

Obviously they are not equal: the deflection is greater for the shot to the side, but on the other hand the side on aspect area of a fighter target is many times greater than the head on aspect.

 

Given the rate of fire of the gunner's MG, if he aims so that you fly through the bullet stream - something that is not so hard to do at 100m range as there is close to zero bullet drop - you are almost certain to be hit somewhere. 200kph = 56 m/s, a fighter 10 metres long will travel it's own length in 0.18 sec.  MG 81 rof of 1600 shots per minute,  4.8 in 0.18 sec.  

 

The only issue really is whether the gunner would be in position and have enough warning to get the bullets into roughly the right place. If he can, you should expect to be hit.

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Posted (edited)

I fly in an organized group that runs a weekly multiplayer campaign.

Try attacking a flight of 6+ bombers flying together in a tight box. 

 

The gunner situation is bad when discussing classic multiplayer scenario of one or two bombers being attacked.

When the enemy is flying in a squadron sized force and implementing actual tactics it goes from funny to beyond ridiculous really bloody quick.

Edited by 4./JG26_Onebad
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1 hour ago, unreasonable said:

The only issue really is whether the gunner would be in position and have enough warning to get the bullets into roughly the right place. If he can, you should expect to be hit.

 

My point was that while the novice dorsal and ventral gunners performed really bad, actually worse than a human would do, during the 15 secs when  deflection-shooting was not required, the waist gunner sported the skills of a clay pigeon shooting champion in a difficult high-angle deflection situation which didn't last more than for 1 to 2 secs from target acquisition to bullet impact.

 

(It was not that I flew into a stream of bullets; the gunner predicted my speed, vector, and path, and opened fire only when the bullets of his short burst would predictably hit my plane moving fast and perpendicular to the direction of shooting.)

 

I guess the same algorithm is used for all gunners, where bullet spread increases, accuracy decreases with distance, accuracy being also affected by skill level. So far, so good, but at the same time it seems that it doesn't matter much whether the target is moving parallel or perpendicular, so that a high-angle deflection shot seems to have the same hitting probability as a low-angle one from the same distance. Now factor in the increased target profile sizes in closer distances, and we're arrived where a one-second fly-by at 3 o'clock is potentially more dangerous than hanging around at six for 15 secs.

 

I agree with @Bremspropellerthat time-delays and blind-zones should be added, but I think it's not random accuracy which is needed, but an accuracy factor decreasing with distance, skill level, and the increase of deflection angle.

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Sorry to revive, but anyone here didn't notice one the lasts patchs AI Gunners are getting significantly more OP? You can't disengage without get a hit, and that is the better situation you can have

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On 7/14/2019 at 10:17 AM, -332FG-Ursus_ said:

Sorry to revive, but anyone here didn't notice one the lasts patchs AI Gunners are getting significantly more OP? You can't disengage without get a hit, and that is the better situation you can have

 

On the last patch they said there has been a reaction delay time added to the gunners, however, it practically has done nothing for the OP gunners.

 

I didn’t notice them being any more OP as you mentioned, however. 

 

 

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I am not saying there is not an issue with the gunners and perhaps you are on the right track but...you seem to be taking only want you want from the videos you use as evidence.

 

The first video shows a straight transition from Upper to Lower and what looks like an OP kill.

The second video shows a transition from Upper to Lower with no OP hits then back to lower with *some* hits on a very close target sitting right where the gunner naturally shoots with hardly any relative movement so [hitsare really not that surprising then he pulls up high over the Upper gunner extremely close and gets hit badly which is even less surprising as even a human gunner would find him unmissable.   

In my experience as a human gunner, the three easiest shots to make are :-

A) Someone climbing on your low six but not aiming at you so the whole planform is sitting there stationary to let you shoot in front then move back to hose down the cockpit as easily as watering a flowerbed

B) Someone passing above at low relative speed which again presents a nice planform that you cannot miss

C) Someone sitting just off your tail and not climbing or diving.  It is tricky to hit someone head on at a distance but close up is unmissable.

The second video features C followed by B and I am only surprised he was not killed at position C.

 

Like I said,  you might be right that there is something odd happening in the transitions but I don't think these two videos really show it.

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The serious anomaly here isn't just the gunner's accuracy and reaction times but also the fact that they do n inordinate amount of damage in a very small amount of time.  Just getting hits at all in some of these scenarios would be a miracle for a human gunner let alone completely demolishing a fighter with twin 7mm MGs.  I've seen fighters take an order of magnitude more damage from being bounced by another fighter than they do when a gunner flips it's kill switch and decides to delete you.  It's fairly insane for a tailgunner with a single MG to do more damage more quickly than a FW-190 with two MGs and four 20mm cannons.  

Nobody is arguing for bombers to be helpless.  I wouldn't want that at all.  But when you set up an attack to make it as close to impossible for any human gunner to kill you and the AI takes their 2 second or less firing window to unceremoniously execute you with a high deflection shot it is ridiculous.  Gunners should be better than they are currently in some situations, but what we have here is some sort of glitch. 

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On 7/15/2019 at 3:32 AM, Bilbo_Baggins said:

 

On the last patch they said there has been a reaction delay time added to the gunners, however, it practically has done nothing for the OP gunners.

 

This did not affect any air to air gunners.

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On 4/21/2019 at 1:06 PM, Dakpilot said:

Again we need to know what level the AI gunners in question are set to?

I think the problem - and it's a problem for all a.i. gunnery - goes back to this.

 

On 4/21/2019 at 1:51 PM, Bremspropeller said:

Doesn't matter. Any "ace" gunner shouldn't magically become a Death Star L@zer Turret operator.

Very true.  Unfortunately,  Ace gunner really does mean Death Star lasers in this sim.:(

 

Perhaps the most immediate solution would be for the Devs to do away with having a choice of a.i. ability and simply make all gunners 'novices'?

 

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