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HagarTheHorrible

Rift-S underwhelming

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If I'm honest I'm a little underwhelmed by the new offering from Oculus although from what I can see I don't think it's really aimed at us, by which I mean Rift users.  It looks as it is aimed more at the yet to be converted rather than sating the thirst of those that have already dipped their toes in the water.

 

The inside out tracking seems to be a bit of a side step, rather than a jump forward or stumble back.  It might be the future, but as it stands it probably won't add a lot to existing Rift users. The extra screen resolution and fill factor is always nice but it remains to be seen if it is enough of an advance to warrant splashing out another $ 400 especially when other headsets might be better still. The controllers look like being a step back, I thought the first Touch controllers were pretty much spot on design wise, far better than the Vive efforts. It'll be interesting to see if they have been designed with attachment to peripherals as part of the reasoning.  The biggest step back for me, and one of the reasons I chose the original Rift over the Vive, the integrated headphones.  Oculus have long stated how important sound is to the overall experience but this latest design seems to be a firm middle finger to that notion.

 

Like I say I don't think it was designed or built with existing users in mind but to draw in the great unwashed, I just hope that Oculus are far more forthcoming with their plans and gameplan for the true successor of the Rift, otherwise I expect there will be a lot of disgruntaled Oculus gamers out there casting around for something that demonstrates a little bit more of all the work and research that has been going on for the past four years, Oculus might feel the REVERBarations for some time to come.

 

The question I ask myself at the moment is, "If I jump ship does all that money I've spent in the Oculus home store go up the chimney".

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As many in here would know I have been a huge supporter of Oculus , and have been waiting patiently for the next Rift.

I am hugely disappointed myself. Almost seems like something they just threw together.

May be changing ships here in the near future.

Edited by dburne
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Yeah, that strap doesn’t look great, nor the “headphones”. 

 

That said, in general it seems like they were going for a midlife update rather than a full upgrade. So they fixed the problems with the display, USB management and (maybe?) the audio cable.

 

That or we’re now in a VR race to the bottom. 

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If I didn't just buy a odyssey plus I'd get that reverb, it looks exactly like a rift, with way better screens, the thing actually doesn't have ipd adjustment though, only software, so dburne make sure your ipd is in the average range before you check that one out, always buy from a place you can return it.

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4 hours ago, lightbulbjim said:

Yeah, that strap doesn’t look great, nor the “headphones”. 

 

That said, in general it seems like they were going for a midlife update rather than a full upgrade. So they fixed the problems with the display, USB management and (maybe?) the audio cable.

 

That or we’re now in a VR race to the bottom. 

Must be a long way down.  I threw a dime in the wishing well like 2 years ago and I have not heard it hit bottom yet.

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There's a lot of people screaming about the LCD screen and inside-out tracking. But Carmack himself said if he'd known the final quality they would achieve on the Go screens (LCD) he'd have used those for the Quest. But Quest was too far into production so they had to stick with their choice. 80hz is a positive for me especially trying to keep framerates high for single-thread-monster IL2. As for tracking, I for one would appreciate more reliable tracking and instant room-scale and less messing with USB. Even with a dedicated USB card with the Inateck chipset I have problems sometimes. Until we've had reviewers deeply review the tracking quality, it's hard to make a determination.

 

Oculus is firmly in the mass adoption zone, even with Rift S. Their goal is to get a billion people onto VR, not to be the top most high fidelity HMD. Which of course leaves me looking at the HP Reverb ("4K") and Pimax ("5k") as valid contenders vs Rift S ("1440p"). The big plus for the Rift has always been the ergonomics and the software. It was much lighter weight than the Vive and more comfortable for 2+ hour sim session. Oculus had ATW and ASW before Vive or WMR and it's still arguably a better implementation. Pimax is talking a big game with 72hz modes, fixed foveated rendering, brain warp and all that, but all I read about are software glitches. If they can get it to work, great, but I don't really think it's a slam-dunk yet.

 

So, yes, I can see some people being disappointed. But if you're disappointed you're by definition an enthusiast, and a fairly high end one at that, so maybe the competing offerings (Vive Cosmos, Pimax 5k+, HP Reverb) will suit you better.

 

Personally I have a tough decision ahead. With Rift S being 1440p and 80hz, I can probably get a decent IL2 VR experience with my 8086k and RTX 2080 combo. I can also cross my fingers for Oculus software features. Or I can say "sorry, crappy FOV is crappy and I want more pixels" and try a different headset, but then I'm absolutely relying on the software to allow my 2080 to run that many pixels. I guess the question is will the Rift S resolution be *enough* to improve my spotting and general IL2 experience, or must I get into 4K/5K territory and the associated GPU grunt problems?

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1 hour ago, TunaEatsLion said:

Must be a long way down.  I threw a dime in the wishing well like 2 years ago and I have not heard it hit bottom yet.

Haha. Don't mind me, I'm part of the peanut gallery. My PC struggles enough with my Rift that I can't see myself upgrading anytime soon. Maybe in a year or two if/when more hardware is available.

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I'll probably buy one, just for the improved res. The price point is not going to break the bank.

I had hoped for better improvements after such a long time regarding the optics, but I look forward to trying IL2 with this new rift

 

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If they would of just kept the strap design it wouldn't be so bad, the halo is garbage. I have both configs owning a rift and now an odyssey and can say that the halo is indeed much worse. Also doing away with hardware IPD adjustment is just completely insane to me.

Edited by JonRedcorn

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Also glad they brought the FPS down from 90 to 80. Awesome. Totally awesome...cough...cough...

 

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7 hours ago, JonRedcorn said:

If they would of just kept the strap design it wouldn't be so bad, the halo is garbage. I have both configs owning a rift and now an odyssey and can say that the halo is indeed much worse. Also doing away with hardware IPD adjustment is just completely insane to me.

 

I may be wrong but this is now one screen instead of two so isn't it actually impossible to implement hardware IPD adjustment?

Edited by Black_Sab

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As someone that was looking into getting a second rift for in-house MP shenanigans, I'm pretty interested in the Rift-S.

 

Definitely going to wait for some real reviews though.

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I can see the Rift-S being there to expand mass market adoption, it’s for all those people tempted by the Original Rift but who hadn’t quite found the motivation.  I can understand the game plan behind it.  I really hope and wish though that Oculus have the wear with all to also be looking to the enthusiast market, to be putting out something more cutting edge, more experimental.  There are now several variations of Oculus hardware, to meet different customer requirements, there really isn’t any reason why there shouldn’t be another, a high end Rift,  to pull together some or all of the advances that have been made over the last few years, to help iron out the wrinkles as high end gradually becomes mainstream.

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VR is still a niche market, and they don't want to price VR out of the range of normal consumers. If they did that, it would mean death for VR for us. A $400 investment takes a lot of justifying for a lot of people. If you go much beyond that, people won't buy in to it. Also, It takes a lot of money to develop new hardware for enthusiasts like ourselves. Knowing what I know now of the hardware requirements of VR on my PC, I would guess this is going to be their flagship, entry-level headset for a long time while they develop higher-end, power-user headsets in the near future.

Also, it's quite a boon that you don't have to worry about having 15 open USB (I exaggerate) ports for the lighthouses is a huge plus for a lot of people. Think of all the posts about the lighthouses saying "Well, you get 2, but you really need 3."  All that adds on to the entry price.

I know the main reason I bought my Odyssey Plus was that It only has 2 cables and bluetooth controllers : ) 

Side note: it's awesome 😍

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57 minutes ago, SYN_Luftwaffles said:

VR is still a niche market, and they don't want to price VR out of the range of normal consumers. If they did that, it would mean death for VR for us. A $400 investment takes a lot of justifying for a lot of people. If you go much beyond that, people won't buy in to it. Also, It takes a lot of money to develop new hardware for enthusiasts like ourselves. Knowing what I know now of the hardware requirements of VR on my PC, I would guess this is going to be their flagship, entry-level headset for a long time while they develop higher-end, power-user headsets in the near future.

Also, it's quite a boon that you don't have to worry about having 15 open USB (I exaggerate) ports for the lighthouses is a huge plus for a lot of people. Think of all the posts about the lighthouses saying "Well, you get 2, but you really need 3."  All that adds on to the entry price.

I know the main reason I bought my Odyssey Plus was that It only has 2 cables and bluetooth controllers : ) 

Side note: it's awesome 😍

 

Well technically they are Oculus Sensors - the Vive uses the Lighthouse technology.

Only reason 3 were needed was for larger room scale. One actually worked fine for seated games, two with the Touch controllers gave great tracking with a moderate room scale. At least having two does for me, I never felt the need to have three and never had tracking issues playing Touch supported games and moving around with two sensors.

 

While clumsy the Constellation tracking of the Rift is pretty dang awesome, but I can understand with all the support they likely had to deal with folks trying to get them to 

run on say USB 2 ports, or somewhat flaky USB 3 ports, along with sensor disconnect issues, etc. Again mine though have always worked great.

I think the move to inside-out tracking was inevitable. And I imagine at some point Oculus will have that working very well also. Obviously why they are putting 5 cameras into the Rift S headset for tracking.

The Samsung Odyssey and even the upcoming HP Reverb only have 2 cameras in the headset.

 

 

 

Edited by dburne

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14 hours ago, JonRedcorn said:

If they would of just kept the strap design it wouldn't be so bad, the halo is garbage. I have both configs owning a rift and now an odyssey and can say that the halo is indeed much worse. Also doing away with hardware IPD adjustment is just completely insane to me.


If I had to guess, moving to the halo design has more to do with not having the audio issues that the Rift had. When I was researching what HMD to buy, I kept seeing horror stories about the little flat, plastic wire inside breaking from overuse with the extending/contracting of the head band. 

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It's all aimed at bringing down costs in the manufacturing process. Even going from 2 screens to one is huge.  Going for the halo with a strap on top that doesn't carry anything goes ways to simplify the assembly as well, just as moving from external to internal sensors. The move to LCD screens and the new speaker setup speaks exactly the same language.

 

The Rift S enters roughly 350USD below the original Rift, and it will become even cheaper a year later. I bet one S unit isn't even half the price in production costs of the CV1, even today.

 

It's for the mass market, with some quality, probably best bang for the buck a consumer can get this year.

 

It's the efficiency king. Germans will love it.

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37 minutes ago, SCG_Fenris_Wolf said:

It's all aimed at bringing down costs in the manufacturing process.

 

Yes, but they inflated the price, same price than Quest but no 835, no battery, no Disk, and cheaper display ...

I'd recommend it for 300$

 

If they wanted to ask 400$, they could at least left the headphones on it ...

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On 3/21/2019 at 9:15 AM, BornToBattle said:

Also glad they brought the FPS down from 90 to 80. Awesome. Totally awesome...cough...cough...

 

Right. Because they haven't tested that and determined that no-one will be able to tell the difference.

 

This is the major problem I have with all the reactionary, well, reactions on the internet. OMG SPECZ SEZ WORSE HEADSET OMG OMG but without actually having experienced it, you don't know. People who have play tested the unit say it's fine and they can't tell the difference, and given how badly IL2 needs clock speed I'll take a 12.3ms frame time instead of an 11ms frame time any day of the week.

 

Same thing goes for people arguing OLED would be better. Carmack *today* on twitter says the persistence (= delay that can cause ghosting) is better on the Rift S LCD than the Rift OLED.

 

It's not like Oculus is staffed by a bunch of idiots who know nothing about VR. I think it's going to be a pretty decent headset. It hasn't made the choice for simming any easier, however, precisely because it's not a slam-dunk better option than any of the other headsets. It's a different option with different tradeoffs.

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2 hours ago, Alonzo said:

 

Right. Because they haven't tested that and determined that no-one will be able to tell the difference.

 

This is the major problem I have with all the reactionary, well, reactions on the internet. OMG SPECZ SEZ WORSE HEADSET OMG OMG but without actually having experienced it, you don't know. People who have play tested the unit say it's fine and they can't tell the difference, and given how badly IL2 needs clock speed I'll take a 12.3ms frame time instead of an 11ms frame time any day of the week.

 

Same thing goes for people arguing OLED would be better. Carmack *today* on twitter says the persistence (= delay that can cause ghosting) is better on the Rift S LCD than the Rift OLED.

 

It's not like Oculus is staffed by a bunch of idiots who know nothing about VR. I think it's going to be a pretty decent headset. It hasn't made the choice for simming any easier, however, precisely because it's not a slam-dunk better option than any of the other headsets. It's a different option with different tradeoffs.

People have been waiting a long time for an updated rift headset, and instead of that we got a lenovo built oculus branded WMR headset with a very minor resolution bump, a worse headstrap device, no headphones, no hardware IPD adjustment, arguably worse tracking and worst of all LCD's instead of oleds. To top it all off they are asking just as much as their "mobile" headset that is a real oculus built device, with oleds, and headphones and an entire computer on board. That's why people are mad.

 

This thing at 250 or even 300 bucks would of been a decent buy, at 400 you'd be crazy to pick it up unless you just really love oculus and facebook snooping around in your underwear.

 

Nobodies stopping you from picking one up and being happy with the decision but to disregard the backlash they are rightfully receiving would be foolish in my opinion. The only thing this thing has is a better tracking system due to the fact it has 3 more cameras than other WMR headsets, otherwise it's just a cheap lenovo WMR headset. And really for us simmers the tracking systems on every single device are more than good enough for what we do.

Edited by JonRedcorn

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Alonzo has some decent points in regards to the choice of screens. Jon also got one in regards to the price point - but that's just the entry, it'll get lower with time. At least folks can mount their own headphones properly now.

 

Oculus still got the best controllers in the VR world, by far. Probably until Knuckles are released.

 

We need more structured hands-on tests. The current dilemma is, we do not even know what mounting solution is better and even then preferences are different.

 

I for example consider the Rift CV1 mounting solution the worst of all. You'd have an asshead of hair after less than an hour, and the Halo Design of the WMR, to me, was the best, because it didn't press the goggles upon the forehead and around the eyes (no scuba diver) and leave your hair intact.

Edited by SCG_Fenris_Wolf

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1 hour ago, SCG_Fenris_Wolf said:

Alonzo has some decent points in regards to the choice of screens. Jon also got one in regards to the price point - but that's just the entry, it'll get lower with time. At least folks can mount their own headphones properly now.

 

Oculus still got the best controllers in the VR world, by far. Probably until Knuckles are released.

 

We need more structured hands-on tests. The current dilemma is, we do not even know what mounting solution is better and even then preferences are different.

 

I for example consider the Rift CV1 mounting solution the worst of all. You'd have an asshead of hair after less than an hour, and the Halo Design of the WMR, to me, was the best, because it didn't press the goggles upon the forehead and around the eyes (no scuba diver) and leave your hair intact.

I guess it's personal taste, but having the rift and the odyssey the halo is horrible, if the new rift doesn't have a hinge where the hmd drops down the only way to get the odyssey to properly sit against your face is to use velcro and literally pull it to your face, some of the others with halos have a hinge it just doesn't look like the rift does. If you wear the halo "properly" it's comfortable, but then the headset is so far from your face you get massive light leakage and the FOV is drastically smaller. Notice the massive facial interface on the new rift, it's like 6 inches long on the sides, leads me to believe it has very little adjustment and the headset will sit very far from peoples faces.

 

Also the rift can be made snug and doesn't move around with quick head movements, the odyssey on the other hand never feels properly secured. I am still waiting to get one of those vrcovers because the stock facial pad on it is absolutely horrible.

 

Also the comment about hair, I guess if you have a longer haircut it could be problematic but I haven't had any problems.

 

Also just want to note, hopefully my comments aren't taken as rude or incisive, not meant in that way pre apologizing if they upset anyone.

Edited by JonRedcorn

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Haha no worries man, I have a razor sharp undercut. It must remain in order, and when I put the Rift on, it would be out of order. It divided the hair like Moses the sea. If you got a meeting at 1800 and 4hrs to rest before, playing a round of VR was impossible, or I'd look like I just woke up 😂

Edited by SCG_Fenris_Wolf

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1 hour ago, SCG_Fenris_Wolf said:

Haha no worries man, I have a razor sharp undercut. It must remain in order, and when I put the Rift on, it would be out of order. It divided the hair like Moses the sea. If you got a meeting at 1800 and 4hrs to rest before, playing a round of VR was impossible, or I'd look like I just woke up 😂

Gotta stay fresh! Let me know if you get the 60hz mode working.

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It works. Here have a virtual beer.

 

Was examining 60Hz on max settings now. Runs pretty good. Have set up Gamma by +1 as well, as the picture seemed darker. It may be easier to lose aircrafts in dogfights when they move perpendicular. OLEDs love to ghost on low framerate.

 

The HP Reverb with its LCDs at 60Hz and 4k will be interesting. Might not get the ghosting issue either, even if it'll be totally unfit for ED.

 

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3 hours ago, SCG_Fenris_Wolf said:

It works. Here have a virtual beer.

 

Was examining 60Hz on max settings now. Runs pretty good. Have set up Gamma by +1 as well, as the picture seemed darker. It may be easier to lose aircrafts in dogfights when they move perpendicular. OLEDs love to ghost on low framerate.

 

The HP Reverb with its LCDs at 60Hz and 4k will be interesting. Might not get the ghosting issue either, even if it'll be totally unfit for ED.

 

Yeah that thing is definitely interesting. Glad it worked out, you can definitely tell the difference between 90 and 60 though, think like 72/75 would be the sweet spot.

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