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dburne

PWCG - Enemy Fighter AI observations

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Hey Pat and gang,

 

I am a fairly hard core IL-2 player - strictly single player, and I play this game two ways - always. PWCG and IL-2 Career Mode.

I also am heavy into it, flying many hours every week often times every day of the week. Will go some weeks with PWCG and some with Career.

All of my flying has been done with the Spit Mk V since the Kuban release.

 

I want to offer some observations to provide feedback only. Please do not read as a complaint as I love PWCG and will continue to always use it. Pat's work on this excellent program

is very much appreciated and we are very lucky to have him continuing to develop and provide this great program for us. And I am so excited with the things he is working on it for us.

 

My observations: Enemy Fighter AI - in this case I am talking 109 and 190's. No matter what setting I choose in advanced config, whether it be 0, 1, 2, or even -1, I would swear

I am up against aces each time. What I mean is, they always fly to their greatest strengths, going vertical and performing some incredible maneuvers - pretty difficult to fight against.

Also I find my cannons and machine guns harder to bring them down, seems they are not as effective as they once were.  I think I even mentioned in another thread I came across a flight of MC-202's that were impenetrable with either cannons or guns completely.

Now there was a time a few months ago, where if I set a low skill for the enemy fighters, it would seem to have an effect. They would not fly always to their greatest strengths and were a little 

more manageable in dealing with them.

 

This past week I started a new Kuban Career in IL-2 Career mode in the Spit Mk V, and set difficulty to Moderate. They were much more manageable, did not always fly to their greatest strengths in the vertical, and my cannons and guns seemed to be more effective. I could bring them down with less shots. I am pretty sure this is how the enemy AI used to behave in PWCG at lower skill settings in advance config.

 

So anyway I just wanted to provide my feedback on this in the FWIW department. Am also curious if I am the only one noticing this. 

Again the purpose of this post is just for feedback, so please do not take it as anything else and know I continue to use and enjoy PWCG very much!!

I hope this information perhaps is helpful in the future.

And thanks again for this truly awesome program!

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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Your observations are probably placebo. Best way to verify is to set the ai as whatever you wish, and then opening a mission file in the mission editor to check to see if the ai is setup like you want.

 

Also keep in mind, different squadrons start the ai at different difficulty levels. Competent, veteran, etc, etc plus any extra modifiers you give in the advanced settings... You could be setting the ai at X difficultly without realizing it. 

 

 

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Posted (edited)

I too have seen some of the behavior dburne. Most notably is the resistance to damage of enemy aircraft. There seems times when I pour a ton of cannon and machine gun hits into them and while they spew all sorts of smoke they fly on. Often they do eventually go down but from the amount of damage I would expect them to come apart. In terms of AI I can’t say the enemy is ace like at all. Many opponents are not that good. Occasionally I run into AI that is quite challenging using the sun, clouds and tactics well to their advantage. Fighter And Bomber AI is set to 2.

 

 I am currently flying a Kuban campaign with jg52 in June 42. I am experiencing ( which is the opposite of what dburne has reported,) too many missions devoid of any action save for a bit of AAA. Not sure what I can do to get more contacts particularly on penetration and patrol missions. 

 

I definitely don’t have the knowledge to say whether any of what I’ve noted here is pwcg, the game or some combination of them. 

 

Pwcg is the only way I play the game and I too am excited about the future. Can’t wait for Bodenplatte and pwcg for the actual release. It should be amazing. Particularly looking forward to flying for my country in the p51. 

Edited by TheSNAFU

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34 minutes ago, [TWB]Sketch said:

Your observations are probably placebo. Best way to verify is to set the ai as whatever you wish, and then opening a mission file in the mission editor to check to see if the ai is setup like you want.

 

Also keep in mind, different squadrons start the ai at different difficulty levels. Competent, veteran, etc, etc plus any extra modifiers you give in the advanced settings... You could be setting the ai at X difficultly without realizing it. 

 

 

 

I really do not believe so. Have been using PWCG for quite a long time, and been using it on Kuban with the Spit since it became available. Same squadron, same plane.

 

 

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As Sketch said it is fairly easy to determine what the AI settings are.  If the offset is not working and AI setting values are too high then that is on PWCG.  If the game chooses to make a novice AI fly like an ace then that is the game.

 

If anything I would think that PWCG AI settings are lower than the stock campaign because PWCG always sets everything other than fighters to novice.  On average German planes may have a higher AI setting than Russian planes, but both sides should use novice to ace. 

 

Back to this statement: PWCG can set a number from 1 to 4.  That's it.  What the game does with that number is frequently changing these days and not controllable by PWCG.  One way to tell is to get into the QMB and set up a fight against different AI levels.  Do you see a difference between novice and veteran?

 

PWCG does not in any way have any control over the damage model.  It does not and cannot influence the DM in any way. Are you aware that 1C changed the damage model and/or the gun effectiveness a few patches ago?  Everything is harder to shoot down now.  Many threads in the general section on this.

 

Contact or lack thereof is a forever ongoing process.  Getting it just right is not an easy task and one that I will continue to try to improve.  I think the experience can vary significantly depending on what squadron you are flying with at what time.  PWCG intentionally reduces enemy air activity for non fighter missions and campaigns, as it could get impossible to reach a target without getting jumped.  Fighter campaigns and missions should generate more contact.  

 

Feedback on where lack of contact is occurring is helpful.  What squadron?  Date?  What kinds of missions?

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Well like I said I just wanted to provide the feedback fwiw.

 

No worries.

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NP - just trying to clarify what I can and cannot control.  I can definitely control the AI setting and, as stated above, getting contact just right is always going to be an ongoing process.  Feedback is always welcome.  Hope I did not come off as defensive but I need folks to understand what is within my ability to influence and what is not.

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Posted (edited)

Thanks for the thoughts Pat. I have seen the threads on damage and was aware of the changes in one or more recent patches. I mentioned it to confirm I have the same as dburne’s experience. IMO thedevs need to rethink that. 

 

With respect to contacts it must be driven by the unit, location etc. In Stalingrad campaigns flying with jg3 and jg52 I almost never fly a mission without contact with Russian fighters and or bombers. In Kuban it is probably 40-50% of the time I don’t get contacts primarily on penetration and patrol missions. Intercepts don’t seem to be a problem in terms of contacts. Im flying a Kuban fighter campaign, June 42 with II jg52 in F4’s and G2’s. That is very different than what dburne reported which was that he almost always has contacts in Kuban campaign flying spits for Russia. 

 

Thank you so much for what you do. Pwcg is the best way to enjoy the game in SP. 

Edited by TheSNAFU

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1 hour ago, PatrickAWlson said:

NP - just trying to clarify what I can and cannot control.  I can definitely control the AI setting and, as stated above, getting contact just right is always going to be an ongoing process.  Feedback is always welcome.  Hope I did not come off as defensive but I need folks to understand what is within my ability to influence and what is not.

 

Thanks Pat.

 

I will tell you I am convinced something changed in recent months, whether it changed on the game side or PWCG side I would have no idea.

Career Mode does not seem effected the same, just PWCG. And by changed I am only referring to the enemy AI fighter (namely 109 and 190) when flying the Spit in Kuban 57th GIAP. Lower skill setting as far as I can tell has no effect. Not sure what they are actually set at just will say they are darned good, I mean really good.

Again just feedback on my personal observation, will leave it there.

 

Thanks again for all you do,

 

 

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13 hours ago, dburne said:

 

Thanks Pat.

 

I will tell you I am convinced something changed in recent months, whether it changed on the game side or PWCG side I would have no idea.

Career Mode does not seem effected the same, just PWCG. And by changed I am only referring to the enemy AI fighter (namely 109 and 190) when flying the Spit in Kuban 57th GIAP. Lower skill setting as far as I can tell has no effect. Not sure what they are actually set at just will say they are darned good, I mean really good.

Again just feedback on my personal observation, will leave it there.

 

Thanks again for all you do,

 

 

The 109 ai is actually pretty good, especially if the fight starts up high, they do not just turn in circles. If the AI is set to ace they are actually quite remarkable and I was actually impressed with how well they fight. Putting up a squad of 4 la5fn's vs 4 109 g4's the 109s win almost every time. All on ACE setting. No planes are in a turning fight. People need to stop playing on baby AI settings and proclaiming the AI is dumb. But yeah the 109 AI seems to be a bunch of grizzled vets that actually know how to fly their planes.

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4 hours ago, JonRedcorn said:

The 109 ai is actually pretty good, especially if the fight starts up high, they do not just turn in circles. If the AI is set to ace they are actually quite remarkable and I was actually impressed with how well they fight. Putting up a squad of 4 la5fn's vs 4 109 g4's the 109s win almost every time. All on ACE setting. No planes are in a turning fight. People need to stop playing on baby AI settings and proclaiming the AI is dumb. But yeah the 109 AI seems to be a bunch of grizzled vets that actually know how to fly their planes.

 

I made this thread to offer feedback on what I perceive to be a change in the PWCG enemy fighter AI behavior of 109 and 190's as it relates to the skill level set in PWCG and a comparison of the same in the IL-2 Career Mode. I do not believe the lower skill settings are applying properly any longer in PWCG, and I noticed the change (and posted on it) several weeks ago. All while flying the Spit Mk VB in Kuban Campaign. I did not see this same change in the IL-2 Career Mode.

I can only comment on my experience flying the Spit against 109 and 190's in both PWCG and IL-2 Career.

 

I offered this as I thought it might be helpful. If it is great, if not that is quite fine too.

Let's just leave it at that. Might be best just to close the thread now as the feedback has been given.

 

 

 

 

 

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10 minutes ago, dburne said:

 

I made this thread to offer feedback on what I perceive to be a change in the PWCG enemy fighter AI behavior of 109 and 190's as it relates to the skill level set in PWCG and a comparison of the same in the IL-2 Career Mode. I do not believe the lower skill settings are applying properly any longer in PWCG, and I noticed the change (and posted on it) several weeks ago. All while flying the Spit Mk VB in Kuban Campaign. I did not see this same change in the IL-2 Career Mode.

I can only comment on my experience flying the Spit against 109 and 190's in both PWCG and IL-2 Career.

 

I offered this as I thought it might be helpful. If it is great, if not that is quite fine too.

Let's just leave it at that. Might be best just to close the thread now as the feedback has been given.

 

 

 

 

 

That post wasn't really directed at you. Was more of a general the AI is not as bad as people say. 

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I also noticed, that the Advanced Setting AI-Level isn't working anymore. It was the other way around for me: I mostly get AI-Level 1 with russian planes on the Stalingrad map.

You can edit the Mission file in the data / Mission Folder with a simple text editor program like notepad until Pat can fix it in PWCG:

In the Text Editor hit ctrl f for search and enter exactly AILevel (not "AI-Level" or "AI-LEVEL or AI Level...)

You will find your flight first (your AILevel is 0) and when you search on downward, you will find the parameters for the enemy planes bf109. Here you can overwrite AILevel = 4 (ace) with lower Settings 1 to 3.

Pat: can you eventually look into this and add/substract the entered number as you described it?

 

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On 3/12/2019 at 9:55 AM, oho said:

I also noticed, that the Advanced Setting AI-Level isn't working anymore. It was the other way around for me: I mostly get AI-Level 1 with russian planes on the Stalingrad map.

You can edit the Mission file in the data / Mission Folder with a simple text editor program like notepad until Pat can fix it in PWCG:

In the Text Editor hit ctrl f for search and enter exactly AILevel (not "AI-Level" or "AI-LEVEL or AI Level...)

You will find your flight first (your AILevel is 0) and when you search on downward, you will find the parameters for the enemy planes bf109. Here you can overwrite AILevel = 4 (ace) with lower Settings 1 to 3.

Pat: can you eventually look into this and add/substract the entered number as you described it?

 

 

:good:

 

Thanks for the confirmation.

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Posted (edited)
On 3/12/2019 at 9:55 AM, oho said:

I also noticed, that the Advanced Setting AI-Level isn't working anymore. It was the other way around for me: I mostly get AI-Level 1 with russian planes on the Stalingrad map.

You can edit the Mission file in the data / Mission Folder with a simple text editor program like notepad until Pat can fix it in PWCG:

In the Text Editor hit ctrl f for search and enter exactly AILevel (not "AI-Level" or "AI-LEVEL or AI Level...)

You will find your flight first (your AILevel is 0) and when you search on downward, you will find the parameters for the enemy planes bf109. Here you can overwrite AILevel = 4 (ace) with lower Settings 1 to 3.

Pat: can you eventually look into this and add/substract the entered number as you described it?

 

 

Ok just got back to PWCG and created a mission, yep the enemy AI 109's were set to Ace (4) level.

I changed them to 1 and flew the mission, and it was more like what I would expect.

Appears to affect the 109's and 190's mainly when flying VVS.

 

Pat -  I know you have your hands full at this time with Coop, but if any chance this can be corrected in the future would be very nice!

It is rather cumbersome to go in and find these values and change them in the mission file for each mission.

Edited by dburne

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On 3/27/2019 at 7:29 AM, dburne said:

 

Ok just got back to PWCG and created a mission, yep the enemy AI 109's were set to Ace (4) level.

I changed them to 1 and flew the mission, and it was more like what I would expect.

Appears to affect the 109's and 190's mainly when flying VVS.

 

Pat -  I know you have your hands full at this time with Coop, but if any chance this can be corrected in the future would be very nice!

It is rather cumbersome to go in and find these values and change them in the mission file for each mission.

 

On 3/12/2019 at 6:55 AM, oho said:

I also noticed, that the Advanced Setting AI-Level isn't working anymore. It was the other way around for me: I mostly get AI-Level 1 with russian planes on the Stalingrad map.

You can edit the Mission file in the data / Mission Folder with a simple text editor program like notepad until Pat can fix it in PWCG:

In the Text Editor hit ctrl f for search and enter exactly AILevel (not "AI-Level" or "AI-LEVEL or AI Level...)

You will find your flight first (your AILevel is 0) and when you search on downward, you will find the parameters for the enemy planes bf109. Here you can overwrite AILevel = 4 (ace) with lower Settings 1 to 3.

Pat: can you eventually look into this and add/substract the entered number as you described it?

 

As oho noted and dburne stated it does work.  I set up a mission then changed the AILevel and what a difference, I was able to survive with out an early exit and my wing men did a good job also.  I edited not only the enemy side but also the friendly side, I must also say that the enemy side is set to a higher level (as dburne noted) where as the friendly side there where no Ace(4) level until I changed them.

 

Thanks 

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it's not friendly vs enemy - or at least it should not be.  Squadron and Service quality determines pilot quality.  German squadrons are generally higher quality so as a Russian you will face better pilots.  Only pilots with > 5 kills should be aces.  Flying Spitfires your wingmen should be a bit better since they are a Guards unit.

 

I will check to verify that things are working more or less as expected (it is heavily randomized) and I'll look into the AI modifier.  Guessing, but maybe when I switched to defined pilots I didn't do the AI modification during mission creation.

 

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40 minutes ago, PatrickAWlson said:

it's not friendly vs enemy - or at least it should not be.  Squadron and Service quality determines pilot quality.  German squadrons are generally higher quality so as a Russian you will face better pilots.  Only pilots with > 5 kills should be aces.  Flying Spitfires your wingmen should be a bit better since they are a Guards unit.

 

I will check to verify that things are working more or less as expected (it is heavily randomized) and I'll look into the AI modifier.  Guessing, but maybe when I switched to defined pilots I didn't do the AI modification during mission creation.

 

Pat this is on the Bodenpatte map using the D9.  Sorry that I was not clear on which map or campaign.

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On 3/28/2019 at 7:45 PM, PatrickAWlson said:

it's not friendly vs enemy - or at least it should not be.  Squadron and Service quality determines pilot quality.  German squadrons are generally higher quality so as a Russian you will face better pilots.  Only pilots with > 5 kills should be aces.  Flying Spitfires your wingmen should be a bit better since they are a Guards unit.

 

I will check to verify that things are working more or less as expected (it is heavily randomized) and I'll look into the AI modifier.  Guessing, but maybe when I switched to defined pilots I didn't do the AI modification during mission creation.

 

:good:

 

Thank you for looking into this!

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On 3/28/2019 at 7:45 PM, PatrickAWlson said:

it's not friendly vs enemy - or at least it should not be.  Squadron and Service quality determines pilot quality.  German squadrons are generally higher quality so as a Russian you will face better pilots.  Only pilots with > 5 kills should be aces.  Flying Spitfires your wingmen should be a bit better since they are a Guards unit.

 

I will check to verify that things are working more or less as expected (it is heavily randomized) and I'll look into the AI modifier.  Guessing, but maybe when I switched to defined pilots I didn't do the AI modification during mission creation.

 

 

Pat I believe the below post from Dec 8th is about the time I first noticed this AI behavior in the 109's and 190's in a Spit Kuban Campaign.

I hope maybe this helps give a little clue.

 

 

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On 3/28/2019 at 7:45 PM, PatrickAWlson said:

it's not friendly vs enemy - or at least it should not be.  Squadron and Service quality determines pilot quality.  German squadrons are generally higher quality so as a Russian you will face better pilots.  Only pilots with > 5 kills should be aces.  Flying Spitfires your wingmen should be a bit better since they are a Guards unit.

 

I will check to verify that things are working more or less as expected (it is heavily randomized) and I'll look into the AI modifier.  Guessing, but maybe when I switched to defined pilots I didn't do the AI modification during mission creation.

 

 

Pat,

Just created an Intercept Mission in my Spit Kuban Campaign.

I have my fighter AI adjustment set to 1, and odds of Ace flying set to 10.

In looking through the Mission file that was generated, there was listed one flight of four 109 G4's.

Two of the 109's were skill level 4 , and two were skill level 3. 

The rest were bombers.

The bombers listed were showing skill level of 1.

I have attached the Mission file that was generated in hopes it might help give a clue.

 

dburne Spit One 1943-08-06.zip

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1. I have confirmed that this is broken.  When I went to actual on record pilots for each plane I eliminated the adjustment and just used the AI value of that pilot.  I will get the adjustment back in.

 

2. After I fix this ... Setting your fighter AI adjustment to 1 makes the AI 1 better - i.e. it increases the existing value by 1.  It does not set the fighter AI to 1.  This parameter takes a range from -4 to +4.  If you want the AI to decrease use a negative number.  

 

3. If you are being inundated with aces I that is not good, although German pilots should generally be more average or veteran and less novice.

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3 hours ago, PatrickAWlson said:

1. I have confirmed that this is broken.  When I went to actual on record pilots for each plane I eliminated the adjustment and just used the AI value of that pilot.  I will get the adjustment back in.

 

2. After I fix this ... Setting your fighter AI adjustment to 1 makes the AI 1 better - i.e. it increases the existing value by 1.  It does not set the fighter AI to 1.  This parameter takes a range from -4 to +4.  If you want the AI to decrease use a negative number.  

 

3. If you are being inundated with aces I that is not good, although German pilots should generally be more average or veteran and less novice.

 

:good:

 

Thanks so much Pat!

I know you are swamped with all you are working on, I really appreciate you looking into this.

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Good job sniffing this out Dburne. Flying from the Gernan side I dont see many great Soviet pilots but that makes sense particularly in my 1942 Stalingrad campaigns.

 

Thanks for looking into it Pat! 

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