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1 hour ago, RedKestrel said:


I haven't flown the Pe-2 a lot but of all the times I've flown it, I've gotten shot down after a max of two passes from enemy fighters (I've never managed to land the damn thing in MP). No crew deaths but I have been wounded before. I'm not saying its not tough but its not made of concrete either. I would say that given the glass cockpit the crew should probably be more vulnerable than they apparently are. Maybe an issue there with registering hits on crew.

I've gotten one kill with the tail gunner, and that was when the enemy followed me down to the deck after I was already mortally wounded (one engine out, the other smoking). Its just about impossible to fly the Pe-2 on one engine so if you see black or white smoke from an engine just back off and let the plane die.

Actually I'm just in general struck with how tenacious players are with following an obviously dead aircraft all the way down to the deck, shooting until wings come off. I guess they want to ensure a kill but they're wasting ammo and altitude and risking return fire and lawndarting. Il-2's gunners are more afraid of dishonour than death so they'll keep shooting right until they hit the ground.

I've almost aced in flights with pe2 gunners although ill chalk that up to opponent incompetence.  If you keep your tail towards enemys in bf110s and pe2s you give your gunner the best chance of hitting and expose only your engines, you are quite resilient from dead 6 in both planes.  I am also aware that a pe2 on 1 engine isnt going to far but those engines can go a long time with damage and ive made some pretty long trips leaking everything.  However i do often ensure the kill, but id say the only thing im half decent at in game is shooting (deflection and long range) so it usually doesnt take long at all but the pe2 seems to be the most resilient, definently moreso than any il2 variant (the concrete a/c irl).  Sure ive managed to make engines explode with mc202 12.7s and snipe the pilot in bnz's but usually when i go for them i check my surroundings good cuz i know its gonna be a while.  

Edited by Joeasyrida
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Another thing that's worth saying regarding attacking bombers is if you see them dump their load and evade, just leave them be, what are they going to do with no bombs? No point chasing them down and risking extra damage

 

22 minutes ago, 71st_AH_Yankee_ said:

I'd imagine the B-25 has a bigger load overall, and hopefully also has the option of carrying bigger bombs.

 

Hoping for the pilot-aimed guns in the nose, too, for strafing attacks

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10 hours ago, Joeasyrida said:

I've almost aced in flights with pe2 gunners although ill chalk that up to opponent incompetence.  If you keep your tail towards enemys in bf110s and pe2s you give your gunner the best chance of hitting and expose only your engines, you are quite resilient from dead 6 in both planes.  I am also aware that a pe2 on 1 engine isnt going to far but those engines can go a long time with damage and ive made some pretty long trips leaking everything.  However i do often ensure the kill, but id say the only thing im half decent at in game is shooting (deflection and long range) so it usually doesnt take long at all but the pe2 seems to be the most resilient, definently moreso than any il2 variant (the concrete a/c irl).  Sure ive managed to make engines explode with mc202 12.7s and snipe the pilot in bnz's but usually when i go for them i check my surroundings good cuz i know its gonna be a while.  

 

Even with the airframe so resilient to hits, the gunner positions are impregnable in comparison to the other multi-crew machines such as il2, Ju88 and 110, where crew often die on first pass. Why those pe2 rear gunners does not die, I do not know. 

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3 hours ago, Bilbo_Baggins said:

 

Even with the airframe so resilient to hits, the gunner positions are impregnable in comparison to the other multi-crew machines such as il2, Ju88 and 110, where crew often die on first pass. Why those pe2 rear gunners does not die, I do not know. 

is the pe2 rear turret armoured in any way? That might be an explanation... But really not sure on that... do pe2 crews die without the turret modification easier? 

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It gotta be the less good pilots that keep complaining about shooting the Pe-2 down. 

I love flying the Pe-2, and have flown it hundres of times. I have almost been shot down half the times, and often in the initial attack. So I do not feel safer flying the Pe-2, compared to any other ground attack aircraft. 

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I much prefer the Peshka over anything else forground work in busy areas. While it is true that the good pilots will shoot you down in the first pass, most are not that good and they end up chasing the Peshka, something that makes it not likely forthem to get home themselves even though they might shoot me down.

 

With the Peshka you can exfil fast enough to make it unlikely for any opponent to get a good position for an attack as any attack from the rear is out of the question. Hence, if the Peshka runs home, you let it go. If you shoot it down, it just spawns faster and you might not get home yourself.

 

With the A20, just park close in their 6 and let him have it.

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9 hours ago, Bilbo_Baggins said:

 

Even with the airframe so resilient to hits, the gunner positions are impregnable in comparison to the other multi-crew machines such as il2, Ju88 and 110, where crew often die on first pass. Why those pe2 rear gunners does not die, I do not know. 

I spent some time a while back testing what it takes to kill gunners and pilots by using parked planes.

The Pe2 gunners went down the same as any others. 7.62mm kills them in 3-4 shots, 12.7mm and above in

 one shot.

The armor on planes works well. For example, the 109s armor is impervious to 7.62mm and even resists some 20mm shots (from the He111's nose gunner in the tests). However it didn't look  like the Pe2 had any gunner armor in the tests I ran.

Given how easy it is to kill gunners and pilots in the game, I'm astounded it doesn't happen more frequently.

If you would like to test for your self, just set up some parked Pe2s in the mission editor alongside some plane with gunners to shoot at them.

 

Edited by [DBS]Browning
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18 minutes ago, [DBS]Browning said:

I spent some time a while back testing what it takes to kill gunners and pilots by using parked planes.

The Pe2 gunners went down the same as any others. 7.62mm kills them in 3-4 shots, 12.7mm and above in

 one shot.

The armor on planes works well. For example, the 109s armor is impervious to 7.62mm and even resists some 20mm shots (from the He111's nose gunner in the tests). However it didn't look  like the Pe2 had any armor in the tests I ran.

Given how easy it is to kill gunners and pilots in the game, I'm astounded it doesn't happen more frequently.

If you would like to test for your self, just set up some parked Pe2s in the mission editor alongside some plane with gunners to shoot at them.

 

Your waisting time explaining that to troll like bilbo, his mined is already set in that devs made game biased to red side, juts see what he says on chat about red airplanes on server, also to expect that player like him knows how to properly attack any bomber in game is beliving in miracles.

just look at his sorties, 90% of them is him taking 109 and going directly to red airbase to vulch guys on spawn or takof and landings, as red airplanes are so op

http://il2stat.aviaskins.com:8008/en/sorties/7460/Player-15685/?tour=46

 

you should know better and just ignor this troll

 

problem with gunners in this game is on all airplanes, because they can track you crazy good and not because only pe-2  ( why ppl complain about Pe-2 is already explained, its because of airplane has better caliber of guns, its fast and tuff )

and to see how they waisted their time in having multiple AI gunner brains to avoid all gunners to know what is your position when they should not ( hurting number of bombers you can have ) and then you still have this problem of AI gunners still knowing to good your position. Its worst case scenario they got, AI gunners demanding on game and still know to good your position.

On 3/11/2019 at 4:20 PM, =TBAS=Sshadow14 said:

 What server are you talking about..
One of the more popular servers sets russians Plane gunners to High/ACE 250% skill while german planes are all set to low or normal to maintain that servers russian bias.
so you cannot judge say the strength or accuracy of gunners in that server.

But other servers have all gunners set to same "Normal" skill level which is the default Accuracy and detection rate the Devs designed and intended for balance.

 

You do know every time you join server that mission is downloaded to your files, and you can open that mission in mission planer and see for your self that this is not true what you say. But nothing more is expected from guy who joins said server and asks ppl to join other servers. So what mission has red gunners set to ace but not blue, or your just full of bs as always when you talk about WoL because you just dont like that server.

Edited by 77.CountZero
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If you have hit a Pe-2 with your cannons hard, then it will continue to fly for a long time. The outline of the hit bomber emitting thick smoke will be hardly visible to you as the attacking fighter. Nevertheless, the rear gunner will hit you with sniper precision despite the smoke and hard evasive maneuvers of the bomber. How can it be that the gunner sees his target und the fighter not? Radar-controlled gun turrets?

I agree with all the people who think the AI gunner precision and the toughness in the Pe-2 are unrealistically modeled in this sim. In contrast, other bombers behave realistically in this regard. For me this is a nuisance.

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17 minutes ago, Grancesc said:

If you have hit a Pe-2 with your cannons hard, then it will continue to fly for a long time. The outline of the hit bomber emitting thick smoke will be hardly visible to you as the attacking fighter. Nevertheless, the rear gunner will hit you with sniper precision despite the smoke and hard evasive maneuvers of the bomber. How can it be that the gunner sees his target und the fighter not? Radar-controlled gun turrets?

 

I agree with all the people who think the AI gunner precision and the toughness in the Pe-2 are unrealistically modeled in this sim. In contrast, other bombers behave realistically in this regard. For me this is a nuisance.

And have you try to attack other bombers like ju88 he-111 with 109, for example he-111h16 with its top gunner, and see how they can also hit you with no problems and even on strange angles. 

 

Online because of 9,5km range fighters have to stay close to target, so they see bomber when its already to late, so they usealy end up damaging bomber and insted braking of and let him go down in 5-10min they push harder as bomber will drop bombs, and end up on his 6. Short visibility combined with fast bomber with big caliber gun is all you need.

 

Like some said just wait for B-25 with its 4-5 12,7 mg facing to enemy fighter, and then it will be again same story like it is about Pe-2, when in reality problem is in AI gunners on all airplanes tracking you to fast, but its logical that if one bomber has bigger gun that bomber will get more one shot kills.

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21 minutes ago, Grancesc said:

Nevertheless, the rear gunner will hit you with sniper precision despite the smoke and hard evasive maneuvers of the bomber. How can it be that the gunner sees his target und the fighter not? Radar-controlled gun turrets?

Tell that to my Ai gunner. He hardly ever hits anything, and is close to being worthless. 

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13 minutes ago, 6./ZG26_Loke said:

Tell that to my Ai gunner. He hardly ever hits anything, and is close to being worthless. 

Do you tell your gunner to shot free (F3+F2), and also change his range from normal to far, (F3+F1+F3) in gunner comands menue. It helps, also avoid turning when your attacked, go up down a little as posible, it will help you

Edited by 77.CountZero
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I have just finished an experiment to asses the effectiveness of the AI gunners vs human gunners.

I started a quick mission with a Pe2 against 8x Ace AI 109G2s. I left the pe2 on level stab at 70% throttle. I can post the other settings for the quick mission if anyone is interested in reproducing my results.

I flew the mission a total off 20 times. 10 times with AI gunners and 10 times with myself manually operating the top gun.

I counted the number of kills the pe2 got before it crashed. The results are below.

 

109 kills for each flight with AI gunners:

3, 3, 4, 3, 1, 1, 2, 2, 1, 1

Average: 2.1

 

109 kills for each flight with a human gunners:

1, 3, 2, 2*, 4, 3, 3, 2*, 5, 3

Average: 2.8

 

The asterisk denote flights where the Pe2 was not shot down or damaged in any way that would result it in losing engine power. The remaining 109s stopped attacking.

 

I took away two things from the test. Firstly, The Ace 109 AI is terrible at shooting down Pe2s. They only attack from the rear, miss much more than a human, have no sense of self preservation and in the majority of the tests they eventually appeared to lose interest in shooting the Pe2 altogether and instead just flew around in circles. Even when I disabled the pe2's gunners completely, the 109s still had a hard time getting hits on the pe2.

Secondly, it does appear that I do better manning the gunners seat my self. That's a relief and it matches my previous experiences online.

 

There are far too many variables that I am unable to pin down to make this anything like a scientific test. I'd love to know what the accuracy percentages where like. The AI pauses a lot in it's shooting, even when it's an easy shot, whilst I kept the trigger down more. Perhaps the AI has a better hit percentage, although I doubt it as the AI often fires at times when it is very unlikely to hit.

The 109's always attacked from the six, so I did not need to do much deflection shooting. Perhaps the AI is better at that than I am. I have no reason to think that is the case, but I have no real way to test for that either.

 

Edit: just as a side note, My gunner was killed a total of 6 times in the tests and also the Pe2 gunsight is crap.

Edited by [DBS]Browning
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Here is an example o f why people who fly PE2s don't agree they are invincible.    We took 7 PE2s in close enough formation to give mutual support.   Three 109s destroyed 5 of them in the space of 1-2 minutes and two made it to target but died soon after.    Yes several 109s were damaged including one that rammed a PE2, but the point here is that the PE2s died quite quickly.      As someone who mostly flies Red,   I find JU88s extremely hard to shoot down without losing my engine no matter carefully I set up my attacks to be out of any gunners arc but I bet JU88 pilot complain about how fragile they are 🙂

 

 

 

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Amazing... just imagine the average pilot back then had was up to this marksmanship as well. The air war would have looked rather differently.

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28 minutes ago, 56RAF_Roblex said:

Here is an example o f why people who fly PE2s don't agree they are invincible.    We took 7 PE2s in close enough formation to give mutual support.   Three 109s destroyed 5 of them in the space of 1-2 minutes and two made it to target but died soon after.    Yes several 109s were damaged including one that rammed a PE2, but the point here is that the PE2s died quite quickly.      As someone who mostly flies Red,   I find JU88s extremely hard to shoot down without losing my engine no matter carefully I set up my attacks to be out of any gunners arc but I bet JU88 pilot complain about how fragile they are 🙂

 

 

 

Its pretty obvious from this footage too that the attacking planes that were damaged got hit when they came in slower at a low deflection. Six rear gunners with 3 targets to choose from, so two gunners per target when approaching from six. Less than ideal for the attacking planes. But the ones that came in from high 3 and 9 appeared to escape mostly unscathed despite multiple attack runs on a dense formation.

Were any of those attackers FWs though? Thought it looked like one was.



 

20 minutes ago, ZachariasX said:

Amazing... just imagine the average pilot back then had was up to this marksmanship as well. The air war would have looked rather differently.

Well, marksmanship AND nerves. High-speed attacks IRL would be a lot more stressful and frightening than for us 1g comfy chair pilots. Very few IRL fighter pilots back then would achieve the kind of coolness that comes much easier when a new life is a button click away...

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I thought the AI gunners were super snipers until I did a few experiments with a bf109 vs an il2m3. My first few tries they shot out my engine straight away. Then I changed tactic to fly at an angle say 60 degrees side on to the il2 this worked much better but still got some fuse hits from their gunners. 

 

Pretty much my experience was down to my attack tactics, coming in at 6 o'clock even at a high close rate gives the gunner plenty of time to engage. Also I found baiting the AI gunners to use up all their ammo worked as well.

 

 

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My only beef with the Pe-2 is the effectiveness of the lower [hand-held] turret gunner at low angles (ie pointing at a high ‘downward’ angle). In my totally untested and unscientific view, they seems rather accurate for what is essentially a gun on a fixed mounting and a bungee cord. 

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6 hours ago, Tyberan said:

I thought the AI gunners were super snipers until I did a few experiments with a bf109 vs an il2m3. My first few tries they shot out my engine straight away. Then I changed tactic to fly at an angle say 60 degrees side on to the il2 this worked much better but still got some fuse hits from their gunners.

 

Sounds very much like how things happened in reality! When Russians fielded first batch of UB equipped IL-2 two seaters to battlefield for frontline evaluation, they've lost 3 IL-2s, but shot down 7 Bf 109s in return. These were at that point (late 1942) still single 20mm cannon equipped, and more importantly, approached the IL-2 directly from behind, unaware of rear firing gun. 

 

Word spread quickly and Germans adapted their tactics accordingly and upgunned their mounts.

 

Edited by CrazyDuck
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4 hours ago, EAF19_Marsh said:

My only beef with the Pe-2 is the effectiveness of the lower [hand-held] turret gunner at low angles (ie pointing at a high ‘downward’ angle). In my totally untested and unscientific view, they seems rather accurate for what is essentially a gun on a fixed mounting and a bungee cord. 

 

In my limited experience using the lower gunner  it always seemed much easier to get kills.  People attacking from below come in quite straight so they can pull up and rake you as they pass behind and above you.   It makes it a very easy gun solution because you just aim in front of them and adjust backwards and you cannot miss filling the engine and cockpit area with concentrated fire.  It is far easier than shooting someone making a dead six attack.

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On 3/12/2019 at 2:00 PM, 56RAF_Roblex said:

The trouble with these anecdotes is that 1) They are written by the people that did not get shot down and 2) Can we really assume that real life fighter pilots made stupid & impatient attacks like we do? 

 

Fair enough, but then there should still be accounts of let’s say wingmen noticing their buddies get shot in droves by pe2s.

 

Lets say you are right and we have survivor bias, there still are not any accounts of the pe2 being THAT much more deadly than other bombers.

 

That is the main point. Currently in game there is no other bomber that is anywhere near as dangerous to attacking fighters as the pe2. The A20 is an absolute joke against it.

 

Now I’m sure that even if there is survivor bias, the general danger of a plane in relation to others is something that is usually noted.

 

So is the pe2 OP? Don’t know... is it A LOT harder to take down than other planes? Yes!

So why was this never mentioned in any records?

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It's durability vs other planes is something that can be tested experimentally.

If we set some AI planes against player controlled bombers flying at the same speed with guns disabled, then the average time taken by the AI to shoot them down over 10 or more runs should give a reasonable measure of durability without introducing any human bias. 

I don't have time to do this until Sunday however, so perhaps someone else would like to?

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4 minutes ago, =EXPEND=SchwarzeDreizehn said:

Currently in game there is no other bomber that is anywhere near as dangerous to attacking fighters as the pe2.

 

That is just an opinion.  One that is not upheld by PE2 pilots or Blue pilots who believe in intelligent attacks.

Did you not watch my video?  If you are too impatient then just jump to 4:00 The first attack on those PE2s came from high on the left of screen and badly damaged two of them and received no damage in return.  While that was happening another fighter was bumbling around close behind 7 PE2s at almost zero closing  speed and took no damage before setting one on fire. He finally took damage after sitting about 10m behind a PE2. The first attacker then got worried that someone would steal his kills so came back from high on the right of screen and attacked from the six o'clock and took engine damage while severely damaging a PE2.   After 30 seconds 5 of the PE2s were mortally damaged and did not make it to the target despite it being in view. The remaining two managed to reach the target despite heavy damage but died just after dropping.  Most of the fighters took damage but all but one attack was from the six position so that was just their stupid flying.  The only fighter to receive fatal damage did it by ramming a PE2 because he was trying to sit in the middle of the formation firing from point blank range.

Put together a quick mission in a Yak against a JU88 or He111 with average gunners and make a low closing rate attack on their six and tell me again how the PE2 with a heavier gun is OP.

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Well, for quite often being on the receiving end of the 109/190 while flying my Pe-2, I can assure you that they can shoot me down all right.

 

Sure, when there is a novice pilot sticking to my 6 high or some unlucky guy taking a lucky hit while evading I can bring one down with me, but the decent guys who just come in high on my side bring me down easily.

 

And conversely, I quite often had Ju-88/He-111 shooting my coolant/oil circuit with their peashooters while flying a Yak or a P-40 and forcing me to abort the engagement.

 

IME, all of this boil down to a dirty mix of the Pe-2 being sturdy and equipped with a 12.7mm instead of a 7.92/7.54; 109 pilots being quite often overconfident; and all that sprinkled with confirmation bias.

 

And I would really love to know if the blue pilots who complain so much about the Pe-2 being OP have flown regularly it in MP.

Edited by ethelward
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2 hours ago, =EXPEND=SchwarzeDreizehn said:

 

Fair enough, but then there should still be accounts of let’s say wingmen noticing their buddies get shot in droves by pe2s.

 

Lets say you are right and we have survivor bias, there still are not any accounts of the pe2 being THAT much more deadly than other bombers.

 

That is the main point. Currently in game there is no other bomber that is anywhere near as dangerous to attacking fighters as the pe2. The A20 is an absolute joke against it.

 

Now I’m sure that even if there is survivor bias, the general danger of a plane in relation to others is something that is usually noted.

 

So is the pe2 OP? Don’t know... is it A LOT harder to take down than other planes? Yes!

So why was this never mentioned in any records?

Maybe you are reading the wrong accounts. A lot of the Russian language writing on the Pe-2 seems to indicate that German pilots considered the plane to be a threat in both offensive and defensive fighting due to the speed, defensive and offensive armament and the relatively good maneuverability for a plane of it's size. Here are just a few of them: http://rusplt.ru/wins/pe2-bombardirovschik-istoriya-26952.html https://militaryarms.ru/voennaya-texnika/aviaciya/pe-2/ .

 

As for the crew seeming to not die very often, they do die. I've had plenty of gunners killed in a Pe-2, though not as often as in Il-2's. It should be noted that the crew compartments of the Pe-2 was armored, so it isn't surprising that they can survive some punishment.

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2 hours ago, 56RAF_Roblex said:

That is just an opinion.  One that is not upheld by PE2 pilots or Blue pilots who believe in intelligent attacks.


 

Lol

You don’t know what you are talking about mate. There isn’t one experienced blue pilot that would rather go for a pe2 than a a20.

 

29 minutes ago, Disarray said:

Maybe you are reading the wrong accounts. A lot of the Russian language writing on the Pe-2 seems to indicate that German pilots considered the plane to be a threat i

 

What’s so hard to understand about the concept of relative to absolute characteristics?

 

Nice Page of Accounts, but give me any plane and I can cite a fanboy page that lists all the positives sides of a plane. I’m sure you will also find 100 just like that on the a20.

 

2 hours ago, 56RAF_Roblex said:

and tell me again how the PE2 with a heavier gun is OP

 

Well had you read my post before you started your rant you would have noticed that I didn’t actually I explicitly said:

3 hours ago, =EXPEND=SchwarzeDreizehn said:

So is the pe2 OP? Don’t know...

 

👌🏻😂

Edited by =EXPEND=SchwarzeDreizehn
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It is mostly an issue with the Pe-2 being for now the best platform for the AI gunners (twin tail unrestricted view, heavy machine guns, belt feeding without need to reload). The B-25 will be a step up in this regard because it will have twin mg turrets and both capable of 360º firing angles.

In contrast our early A-20B is one of the worst platforms because of the limited 30 round boxes, the gunner spends more time reloading than firing. The later variants had continuous belts, with the G having a twin .50 cal turret even. I guess that one would be similar in effectiveness to the Pe-2, though it still has the tail blocking the straight 6 o clock.

If the German side gets the Ju 188 that would be a good contender as well.
 

Edited by -=PHX=-SuperEtendard

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17 minutes ago, =EXPEND=SchwarzeDreizehn said:

 

Lol

You don’t know what you are talking about mate. There isn’t one experienced blue pilot that would rather go for a pe2 than a a20.

 

 

What’s so hard to understand about the concept of relative to absolute characteristics?

 

Nice Page of Accounts, but give me any plane and I can cite a fanboy page that lists all the positives sides of a plane. I’m sure you will also find 100 just like that on the a20.

 

 

Well had you read my post before you started your rant you would have noticed that I didn’t actually I explicitly said:

 

👌🏻😂

And this is why this plane is damn near impossible to discus ... Provide any kind of source speaking to it's virtues or strong points and some guy that comes at it with no sources will say it is all just fan boy nonsense (though if you read a little you'd find that they are pointing out faults in the plane too, but that is how fanboy sights work)... But why back up your argument with anything? You already know you are right and that should be enough for me, right?

Edited by Disarray
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I think the infamous AI snipershots are a product of the game itself, not the armament in the PE 2.  If you read any pilot stories you would know that any turret in special  backward fired defensive weapons was highly respected by those having to face them. Ask Sakai when he mistook a SBD for a wildcat. If you fighter boys spent any time ground pounding in whatever plane in whatever side, You will find a tonn of frustration in unbelievable hits from AA and AAA. In same amount of time. 

Believe me many of you are easy enough for me to hit when you approach my plane. Many times I got a load of time aiming too. I think AA , AAA and gunners have at times unrealistic capabilities, and the power of the projectile is decisive when it comes to consequences 

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2 minutes ago, ACG_Kai_Lae said:

Then again German planes of that time period are packing a lot of Mk-108s, so we’ll see from where the complaints come from.

 

Well G6 in Friday night bomber campaign was destroying all IL 2 in one pass at one point. So flying slow planes in Bodenplatte will be impossible. 

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Skiled players like this have no problems destroying 3x pe-2s in one sortie ( hes probably best axis player in game has great K/h and didnt get killed for 4-5 months doing 300+ kills and ~40 on bombers )
http://il2stat.aviaskins.com:8008/en/sortie/log/4126682/?tour=46

 

below avradge players like this one cant even get a single 110, one or two 7mm in his head as he sit on bombers six thinking hes unstopable, and plane and player is 100% gone :)
http://il2stat.aviaskins.com:8008/en/sortie/log/4130879/?tour=46

 

comparing gunners in game and real life will get us nothing, as in game you dont have big formations of bombers its usealy one or two, and AI gunners have to be better then humans so ppl play in bombers.


You make all gunners novice skill and no one would be flying bombers thats why they are set to ace to give bomber players a chance in online game.

Set gunner on lovest skill and they will behave more like in real life, and good SP missions have AI bombers on low level, in MP you have to give bomber players best skill for AI so then youll get weard one shots.


And again most complains come for Pe-2 because of capabilitys of airplane, but same AI gunners are on all airplanes they just dont have big callibers, good speed and tuff construction.

 

But expiriance players adapt and dont get killed while unexpirianced get killed and then dont learn from mistake and just repet them and blame game or op airplanes and so on... its simple as that nothing devs can fix.

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The view from the a.i;

 

 This is Wings of Liberty two and a half years ago.  I don't think anything much has changed - except my hardware got better:).  I'm flying the plane, my pc is manning the guns!

  

 

I've flown the Pe2 a lot.  I don't think it's any more durable than any other plane.  However, you do get a sense of....'comfort' knowing there's a good man in the back!

 

The view from the other side?  He 111.  Durability right up there with the Peshka in my opinion.  Gunners?  Same logic but lighter weapons with less field of fire that will still obtain lots of hits on fighters attacking off their six.

 

 

I'm flying the Yak:wacko:

Edited by DD_Arthur

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36 minutes ago, =EXPEND=SchwarzeDreizehn said:

 

You would have to come online for that

 

Yeah, I was referring to a good deal of flying hours until I stopped a year ago. 

12 minutes ago, DD_Arthur said:

  This is Wings of Liberty two and a half years ago.  I don't think anything much has changed - except my hardware got better:).  I'm flying the plane, my pc is manning the guns!

 

Was that wing shot off when he was straight above you? 

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4 minutes ago, LuseKofte said:

Was that wing shot off when he was straight above you? 

 

No,  the wing was hit as he came up close behind but the wing came off as he did the climbing aileron turn.   

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From Wikipedia...

 

xD

 

The Pe-2 regiments' operations were not always successful and the service pilots complained about insufficient defensive armament and survivability: there was a great risk of fire and insufficient armour protection, especially for the navigators and gunners. German pilots soon discovered the limited sighting angles of the ventral gun mounting and its poor reliability. The Ammunition belt of the UBT machine-gun often jammed after the first burst of fire when shooting in extreme positions. The navigator and the radio operator were poorly protected. On average, ten Pe-2 gunners were wounded for every pilot, and two or three were killed for the loss of one pilot. Throughout 1942 the design was steadily refined and improved, in direct consultation with pilots who were actually flying them in combat. Improved armour protection and a fifth ShKAS machine-gun was installed and fuel tanks modified. Despite anecdotal reports by Soviet fliers, Pe-2s were a daylight bomber, often crewed by comparative novices in the early years of the war, and took significant losses, even when well protected by fighters.

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9 hours ago, 77.CountZero said:

Skiled players like this have no problems destroying 3x pe-2s in one sortie ( hes probably best axis player in game has great K/h and didnt get killed for 4-5 months doing 300+ kills and ~40 on bombers )
http://il2stat.aviaskins.com:8008/en/sortie/log/4126682/?tour=46

 

Goof of you to bring this up.

 

Let´s do a little deep dive into this,

 

1.Pe was a shared kill

2. He by himself

3. By himself but got shot down

 

It took a total of 200 so around 70 hits per pe2 with a fw 190 which has 2 20 mils (and rember one is shared)

A rough estimate and a conservative one would be that around 1/3 of the bullet hits are Minen the other 2/3 7.92

 

So it takes around 25 - 20 mil hits to down a pe2.... that sounds more like a b17.

 

Here is an example of how many hits it takes to down a Ju88

 

http://il2stat.aviaskins.com:8008/en/sortie/4115341/?tour=46 17 hit total

http://il2stat.aviaskins.com:8008/en/sortie/4102046/?tour=46 15 hits

 

You also want to know how many Gunners were killed? 2!.... yeah 😄

 

 

Edited by =EXPEND=SchwarzeDreizehn
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On 3/11/2019 at 9:20 AM, [DBS]Browning said:

If the AI gunners where too strong, then you would expect to be less effective with a human gunner. In my experience, human gunners are much more effective than the AI.

But controlling a hand held gun with slipstream and gforce to contend with in real life would be much more difficult than moving a mouse. That's why power operated gun turrets were invented.

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11 hours ago, =EXPEND=SchwarzeDreizehn said:

Lol

You don’t know what you are talking about mate. There isn’t one experienced blue pilot that would rather go for a pe2 than a a20.

 

Nowhere did I, or anyone on any side, say that the A20 was as hard to shoot down as a PE2.   The A20, while still a useful bomber, is much easier to shoot down than a PE2 or JU88 or He111 because it is not very strong and can only fire short bursts before having to reload. The comparison is meaningless.  Perhaps I need to campaign that the  JU88 is obviously too good because most Red Pilots would rather attack a JU52 😄

I wish that the people who make these complaints about the PE2 would just do a simple test, as I have, and experiment offline with both the PE2 and the JU88 using both stupid 6 attacks and safe slashing flank attacks.    You will then see that both are dangerous if not attacked sensibly but both *can* be shot down from 6 if you are happy to lose your engine and both can be shot down easily & quickly using sensible tactics.  You will also see that the better armour and heavier rear gun favours the PE2 in these encounters but it is not out of proportion when you consider the advantages the PE2 had in real life.



 

Edited by 56RAF_Roblex
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