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Fokker D.VIIF?

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It should be a selectable modification. Will check as soon as my game client finishes downloading.

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No BMW engine in this update.

It will be separate plane or the modification will come later.

 

From the DD213: Our partner Ugra Media makes the new WWI aircraft for Flying Circus - Fokker D.VII, Fokker D.VIIF and Sopwith Dolphin.

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It would be nice to see a Central Powers aircraft with a little more get-up and go to keep up with the Spad and "Super" Camel.

 

Flying online I felt like the teams were massively skewed towards a server full of Camel pilots with only a couple of us stupid souls braving to take out a DR1 or Pfalz. Going vertical, I managed to get the Camels to overshoot plenty, giving me a chance to rake them with a single pass... but otherwise they were mopping the floor with us - Often 2 or 3 Camels per Central Power player.

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The lack of the D7F is unexpected. The Camel will eat the D7 and spit the pits. You have a way better chance to survive with the Dr.1. You just can't run away from it.

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But if the F was a modification for the D7, then the engine cowling should also be changed, think also the gaslever, so this could never be introduced as an modification, because the plane base model should also be be different.

 

Or do I have this wrong? 

 

 

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6 minutes ago, Dutch2 said:

But if the F was a modification for the D7, then the engine cowling should also be changed, think also the gaslever, so this could never be introduced as an modification, because the plane base model should also be be different.

 

Or do I have this wrong? 

 

I don't see why it can't be a modification. The developers have done mods which significantly effect appearance (e.g. the BoS Pe-2 turret) as well as engine version mods (e.g. Spit IX).

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It'll probably be a separate plane, just like it is in ROF. 

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The FC store page just lists the Fokker D.VII amongst the 10 aircraft included, and then says "Also includes the Fokker D.VIIF, Bristol Fighter F.III and Halberstadt CL.II 200hp engine modifications". Frankly though, I don't see it makes much difference how they do it. And I'm sure it hasn't been forgotten.

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........but I thought the Fokker VII was supposed to be the dogs ballcocks !!!!!!!!!! 😁 😁 :fly:

 

...evidently it would appear that when they first introduced the VII is was more dog and less bollocks. 

 

Unfortunately an aircraft that doesn't demonstrate, in the sim, why it was a step change in aircraft design.

 

That said I haven't flown it in FC yet so it may be far more capable in this sim than in RoF.

Edited by HagarTheHorrible

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2 hours ago, HagarTheHorrible said:

........but I thought the Fokker VII was supposed to be the dogs ballcocks !!!!!!!!!! 😁 😁 :fly:

 

...evidently it would appear that when they first introduced the VII is was more dog and less bollocks. 

 

Unfortunately an aircraft that doesn't demonstrate, in the sim, why it was a step change in aircraft design.

 

That said I haven't flown it in FC yet so it may be far more capable in this sim than in RoF.

  No... pretty much the same D(iesel)VII  from ROF.  Maybe worse but I'll have to spend more time in it before I go that far.

Edited by J5_Gamecock

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9 minutes ago, Silverback said:

Has anyone else noticed how quickly it (the D7) overheats?

 

Could you elaborate? In dives? In furballs? In climbs? Rad totally open? As I recollect, the D7 seizes the engine pretty quickly in dives in ROF.

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11 minutes ago, SeaW0lf said:

 

Could you elaborate? In dives? In furballs? In climbs? Rad totally open? As I recollect, the D7 seizes the engine pretty quickly in dives in ROF.

I've not noticed the over heating but it does appear to have the "Glass" Engine , just as in ROF. The slightest whiff o' shot will cause engine damage.

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6 minutes ago, J5_Gamecock said:

I've not noticed the over heating but it does appear to have the "Glass" Engine , just as in ROF. The slightest whiff o' shot will cause engine damage.

 

Bad news. But I don't think they will fix these idiosyncrasies yet. If they ever fix.

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I already feel better in the Fokker D.VII than the Pfalz D.IIIa so this is good! I hadn't initially noticed the missing engine modification but I assume it will be along eventually.

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On 3/6/2019 at 3:21 AM, [CPT]HawkeyeP said:

It would be nice to see a Central Powers aircraft with a little more get-up and go to keep up with the Spad and "Super" Camel.

 

Flying online I felt like the teams were massively skewed towards a server full of Camel pilots with only a couple of us stupid souls braving to take out a DR1 or Pfalz. Going vertical, I managed to get the Camels to overshoot plenty, giving me a chance to rake them with a single pass... but otherwise they were mopping the floor with us - Often 2 or 3 Camels per Central Power player.

 

Welcome to Rise of Flight pre-nerf.

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Anyone who had any expectations the 'axis' forces would ever come out with the best plane in any of the IL2 modules (or tank for that matter) is probably smoking some pretty strong tobacco. Lol. Fokker D7 now, Fw190D next. ;)

The allied planes that were historically good are always good, plus a bit extra. The axis planes that were historically good are always not quite as good, minus a bit extra. That's my considered opinion from hundreds of hours of play.

Edited by Uffz-Prien
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1 hour ago, Uffz-Prien said:

Anyone who had any expectations the 'axis' forces would ever come out with the best plane in any of the IL2 modules (or tank for that matter) is probably smoking some pretty strong tobacco. Lol. Fokker D7 now, Fw190D next. ;)

The allied planes that were historically good are always good, plus a bit extra. The axis planes that were historically good are always not quite as good, minus a bit extra. That's my considered opinion from hundreds of hours of play.

 

The Fokker D.VII in Flying Circus (and Rise of Flight for that matter) is not the actual "production" Fokker D.VII which equipped Jastas from May 1918. The reason for that is simple: the plane we have right now doesn't have engine overcompression. In fact, it was one of the reasons why Manfred von Richthofen met his end in a Fokker Dr.I. He'd been bothering Idflieg for more than a month to get a Fokker D.VII (which he had already test flown at the factory), but while the airframes were ready, the engines weren't. At least not in sufficient numbers. In the end, he even begged to receive a D.VII without overcompression, but those were only ever deployed in very small numbers, not to entire Jastas.

 

...and it's the plane we have now in FC/RoF.

 

The problem is that literature and technical data from that time period does not make any distinction between a regular 180hp Mercedes D.IIIa engine, and an overcompressed Mercedes D.IIIaü. The ü (for "über"  — overcompressed) was never an official designation and was never officially rated over 180hp by the Germans. Only post-war British tests correctly rated it at 200hp.

 

What we do know is that every single Mercedes-powered scout of the Fliegertruppe had undergone this engine field modification by the summer of 1918, some straight from the factory. Hence, all post-war test data is valid for this engine type only, when talking about the Mercedes D.IIIa.

 

Luckily we will have the 240hp BMW IIIa-powered Fokker D.VIIF soon, which will render the Fokker D.VII (even with overcompression) inferior. That's not to say that overcompression should not be modeled in down the line, as it would especially benefit the Pfalz D.IIIa and upcoming Albatros D.Va to reach a top speed around 10km/h higher than they will right now, which they will more or less maintain at altitude and possibly gain a small edge over the Camel at 3000m. It has been confirmed by @AnPetrovich that this is not a planned feature for Volume 1, but it's certainly something that should be considered — perhaps even through a separate collector plane purchase.

 

P.S. Without wanting to sound like a complete jackass, my considered opinion from thousands of hours of play (mostly spent in two-seaters, though) matches your opinion. The German planes are underpowered. That is because a) they were, and b) we don't have their most powerful versions. But even so, they'd still be underpowered, especially by 1918 standards. If a mission calls for those planes to be flown 1 on 1 against an Entente counterpart, then that is pure fantasy. By that time, they were deployed en masse and defensively over their own lines (hence why parachutes will come in very handy, regardless of what the treetop level dogfighters say).

 

/end rant

Edited by Hellbender
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1 hour ago, Uffz-Prien said:

Anyone who had any expectations the 'axis' forces would ever come out with the best plane in any of the IL2 modules (or tank for that matter) is probably smoking some pretty strong tobacco. Lol. Fokker D7 now, Fw190D next. ;)

The allied planes that were historically good are always good, plus a bit extra. The axis planes that were historically good are always not quite as good, minus a bit extra. That's my considered opinion from hundreds of hours of play.

 

I agree on the DVII, but for all the WW2 modules the axis had some pretty strong contenders... The K4 performs extremely well, and i expect the D9 to do the same.

 

 @Hellbender

 

We are getting the Halberstadt with the au engine. Would make sense to put in the Fokker and Albatros as well. Maybe it's just to time consuming right now?

 

Grt M

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26 minutes ago, I./ZG1_Dutchvdm said:

 @Hellbender

 

We are getting the Halberstadt with the au engine. Would make sense to put in the Fokker and Albatros as well. Maybe it's just to time consuming right now?

 

Grt M

 

I also mentioned that to the developers a few times. The 3D model change is minimal.

 

From the RoF store:

 

engine.png

 

The engine sounds a bit different, too, especially below 1200m where adding too much throttle is causing pre-ignition problems which leads to knocking noises and eventually engine failure (since the high density low altitude air is overly compressed when it enters the valve, the air/fuel mix tends to ignite and combust prematurely — not the same thing as detonation, for the record).

 

Other than that, there's increased performance, and especially a slower drop-off in performance at higher altitudes. Essentially it's an engine performance/RPM change (with a risk of failure at low altitude with continued use).

 

In any case, I am not in position to make demands to the developers or distribute their workload, we already know that FC flight models is not high up on the list of priorities. Hence why I would suggest this modification as part of a collector plane (package?).

Edited by Hellbender
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2 hours ago, Hellbender said:

 

The Fokker D.VII in Flying Circus (and Rise of Flight for that matter) is not the actual "production" Fokker D.VII which equipped Jastas from May 1918. The reason for that is simple: the plane we have right now doesn't have engine overcompression. In fact, it was one of the reasons why Manfred von Richthofen met his end in a Fokker Dr.I. He'd been bothering Idflieg for more than a month to get a Fokker D.VII (which he had already test flown at the factory), but while the airframes were ready, the engines weren't. At least not in sufficient numbers. In the end, he even begged to receive a D.VII without overcompression, but those were only ever deployed in very small numbers, not to entire Jastas.

 

...and it's the plane we have now in FC/RoF.

 

The problem is that literature and technical data from that time period does not make any distinction between a regular 180hp Mercedes D.IIIa engine, and an overcompressed Mercedes D.IIIaü. The ü (for "über"  — overcompressed) was never an official designation and was never officially rated over 180hp by the Germans. Only post-war British tests correctly rated it at 200hp.

 

What we do know is that every single Mercedes-powered scout of the Fliegertruppe had undergone this engine field modification by the summer of 1918, some straight from the factory. Hence, all post-war test data is valid for this engine type only, when talking about the Mercedes D.IIIa.

 

Luckily we will have the 240hp BMW IIIa-powered Fokker D.VIIF soon, which will render the Fokker D.VII (even with overcompression) inferior. That's not to say that overcompression should not be modeled in down the line, as it would especially benefit the Pfalz D.IIIa and upcoming Albatros D.Va to reach a top speed around 10km/h higher than they will right now, which they will more or less maintain at altitude and possibly gain a small edge over the Camel at 3000m. It has been confirmed by @AnPetrovich that this is not a planned feature for Volume 1, but it's certainly something that should be considered — perhaps even through a separate collector plane purchase.

 

P.S. Without wanting to sound like a complete jackass, my considered opinion from thousands of hours of play (mostly spent in two-seaters, though) matches your opinion. The German planes are underpowered. That is because a) they were, and b) we don't have their most powerful versions. But even so, they'd still be underpowered, especially by 1918 standards. If a mission calls for those planes to be flown 1 on 1 against an Entente counterpart, then that is pure fantasy. By that time, they were deployed en masse and defensively over their own lines (hence why parachutes will come in very handy, regardless of what the treetop level dogfighters say).

 

/end rant


So one is bound to wonder why the first D7 they put into the game is the one that wasn't present historically. Just why? Why would that choice be made? What's the rationale behind it? Is there a shortage of ones and zeroes at the digital factory?

And then they'd be offended if somebody cynically surmised it was deliberate, because Russian devs etc (that old beaten rug of yore).

Edit: Thank you for that very interesting information, especially the part about Richthofen. :)

Edited by Uffz-Prien
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13 minutes ago, Uffz-Prien said:


So one is bound to wonder why the first D7 they put into the game is the one that wasn't present historically. Just why? Why would that choice be made? What's the rationale behind it? Is there a shortage of ones and zeroes at the digital factory?

And then they'd be offended if somebody cynically surmised it was deliberate, because Russian devs etc (that old beaten rug of yore).

 

That's a question I can answer as well. 

 

All the way back in 2009, when Rise of Flight was originally released, there were only 2 planes available: the SPAD XIII and the Fokker D.VII.

 

lyt79Oh.jpg

 

Now the original developer, neoQB, the people who developed the Digital Nature engine (back when 777 was only the U.S. publisher), I believe may have envisioned the WWI aspect of the game as a stepping stone towards developing a much broader flight simulator. Fast forward 10 years later, and while only a small part of neoQB still exists (rebranded as 777) and has joined forces with some ex-1C/Maddox developers, that vision has become a reality.

 

All this to say: the research that happened back then was likely not as exhaustive as it is today. They found data which claimed that the Fokker D.VII had an 180hp engine and modeled it as such. For all intents and purposes, that information wasn't wrong. Still historians (real ones and armchair ones alike) have pointed this out to them several times in the past, which is in no small part why we got the Fokker D.VIIF (and incidentally why the Pfalz D.XII also has a BMW IIIa engine, but that's another story). Since it was the first plane "re-release" with a new engine, it was also sold as a separate package, which sets it apart from the planes that do come in several variants, such as the Albatros D.II (early and late), Bristol F.2B (F.II and F.III) and Halberstadt CL.II (180hp and 200hp).

 

 

Now I don't even want to argue whether or not we should get the overcompressed Mercedes D.IIIaü on the Fokker D.VII (and especially on the Pfalz D.IIIa and Albatros D.Va). Of course we do. The only reason I took it out of my signature is that it started to bother me more than it would be getting noticed by developers anyway.

 

My only question is: should we pay for it?

 

I'm inclined to say: yes, because there is no free lunch, especially not if you're into WWI sims. I'm sure that people who find the $70 pricetag for Flying Circus excessive would disagree, but personally I wouldn't mind paying another $20 for a "D.IIIaü bundle", so to speak.

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I'm curious to see what the Devs would think about an 'engine bundle', after they've got the task at hand completed, of course...

 

It would be really nice to see the engine mods available for the Camel, Alb, Fokker, Spad, S.E.5, etc. etc. but I expect that if it's ever going to happen it'll be a long way off...

 

After all, we all know how niche WW1 sims are. I'm just excited to see one being worked on in 2019!! 

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6 minutes ago, Hellbender said:

paying another $20 for a "D.IIIaü bundle"

Easiest sale under the sun. 

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32 minutes ago, Hellbender said:

Now I don't even want to argue whether or not we should get the overcompressed Mercedes D.IIIaü on the Fokker D.VII (and especially on the Pfalz D.IIIa and Albatros D.Va). Of course we do. The only reason I took it out of my signature is that it started to bother me more than it would be getting noticed by developers anyway.

 

My only question is: should we pay for it?

 

I'm inclined to say: yes, because there is no free lunch, especially not if you're into WWI sims. I'm sure that people who find the $70 pricetag for Flying Circus excessive would disagree, but personally I wouldn't mind paying another $20 for a "D.IIIaü bundle", so to speak.


Now there's a question. Are they holding back the historically correct D7 in order to make coin off it by selling it as a 'collector's Edition'? Having paid $70 so far I'm not going to take kindly to being given yet another barge with which to go online and tackle the typical and ever-present allied UFO fare (in this case the Camel). But the flip-side of that is a niche developer in a niche genre having to pull every trick they can just to stay in business, with conflating accusations of deliberate bias having to be taken on the chin.
If they'd given us the historical D7 up front would anyone down the road give them more money for a 'Collectors Edition' barge-version D7? The same kind of question can be asked re DH2s and E1s, given that it's highly unlikely we'll ever see top-quality online servers giving us historically accurate early-war campaigns in which to use them. Offline however I guess there IS a market for them (but not for an a-historical D7).

Ultimately, what's twenty bucks in the grand scheme anyway? I know there are students etc for whom that's a significant sum but their situation isn't a commercial gold standard. Most players have the money available for significantly more expensive hardware, the cost of the software is a drop in the ocean. So 'principles', given the niche situation, can and probably should be set aside. In which case give us the $20 historical D7 right now, so we don't continue to get screwed online (that being the common perception).

None of this will happen of course and the ultimate result will be far lower sales of FC, leading to a lack-lustre online presence which will feed into more lower sales ad infinitum. The off-liners won't touch any of it until (or if ever) they see the full enchilada (full plane-set and a stellar SP campaign) available to buy. Keep screwing the Central Powers (as it's perceived by many) and you not only put them off buying into the game, it also puts off the allied buyers who see the lack of opponents that would otherwise make it worth buying the game (lots of vicious-circle obstacles to success here).

That's my speculative 2 cents.

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35 minutes ago, Uffz-Prien said:


Now there's a question. Are they holding back the historically correct D7 in order to make coin off it by selling it as a 'collector's Edition'? Having paid $70 so far I'm not going to take kindly to being given yet another barge with which to go online and tackle the typical and ever-present allied UFO fare (in this case the Camel). But the flip-side of that is a niche developer in a niche genre having to pull every trick they can just to stay in business, with conflating accusations of deliberate bias having to be taken on the chin.
If they'd given us the historical D7 up front would anyone down the road give them more money for a 'Collectors Edition' barge-version D7? The same kind of question can be asked re DH2s and E1s, given that it's highly unlikely we'll ever see top-quality online servers giving us historically accurate early-war campaigns in which to use them. Offline however I guess there IS a market for them (but not for an a-historical D7).

 

Let me assure you that you're already getting the very best of the best included with Volume I, which is the 240hp Fokker D.VIIF. Nothing on the Central side will top that (released so far in RoF), save perhaps a Pfalz D.XII, which shares the same engine as the F. Since it outperforms everything above 3000m, even SPADs, you can become effectively untouchable, which was the whole historical point of the plane. It's also slightly faster than a Camel at sea level. A 200hp overcompressed Fokker D.VII would be comparable to an F — slightly worse, but still far better than our current 180hp Fokker D.VII.

 

The Pfalz and Albatros would benefit the most from overcompression.

 

Quote

Ultimately, what's twenty bucks in the grand scheme anyway? I know there are students etc for whom that's a significant sum but their situation isn't a commercial gold standard. Most players have the money available for significantly more expensive hardware, the cost of the software is a drop in the ocean. So 'principles', given the niche situation, can and probably should be set aside. In which case give us the $20 historical D7 right now, so we don't continue to get screwed online (that being the common perception).

None of this will happen of course and the ultimate result will be far lower sales of FC, leading to a lack-lustre online presence which will feed into more lower sales ad infinitum. The off-liners won't touch any of it until (or if ever) they see the full enchilada (full plane-set and a stellar SP campaign) available to buy. Keep screwing the Central Powers (as it's perceived by many) and you not only put them off buying into the game, it also puts off the allied buyers who see the lack of opponents that would otherwise make it worth buying the game (lots of vicious-circle obstacles to success here).

That's my speculative 2 cents.

 

I think it's a fair point.

 

FC is definitely not priced in the way a regular PC game is, or a flightsim developed in the 90's or early 00's. It's also not priced like a study sim, on the other end of the spectrum.

 

I believe that the way it is being marketed right now will at least attract those immediately interested in a WWI sim, and perhaps even a few of the WWII flyers, which is probably more than Rise of Flight did originally. I would definitely wait until we have the D.VIIF (very soon I hope), the Arras map, the SE5a and Albatros before I make my final judgment of the current product.

 

Personally, I'm thrilled to see the flight models following historical data again, which can't be said about Rise of Flight post-2014. Whether that data is correct and makes for a good multiplayer experience is a very different question. If Central is prepared to fight asymetrically, which was historically the case, then the Camel being rather optimistic in its performance really isn't a big deal.

Edited by Hellbender

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Oh, the F is going to be included in the $70 EA price? Then WTH are they doing giving us the porker at all?! Lol. That's got me completely baffled now. Why didn't they spend the time on doing the porker on the F instead? Weird.

The Arras map might be the pivot-point for enthusiasm, it really is the foundation upon which the planes will sensibly stand. :)

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As you can see at the very top of this thread, I was rather surprised that they didn't immediately add the F as an engine modification to the, um, porker. They'd have followed the same principle as what they did with the La-5 and La-5F (clearly the letter F makes everything better — press F to pay respects).

 

As @LukeFF points out, they will probably add her in later (soon, I reckon) as a separate plane. She does need a bit more tinkering than the regular D.VII, since she has an altitude throttle on her BMW engine and the problems with pre-ignition/knocking at lower altitude (same as the overcompressed Mercedes) also need to be modeled in.

 

For the record, as @I./ZG1_Dutchvdm points out, we will indeed get the overcompressed Mercedes engine on the Halberstadt CL.II. Much like the Mercedes scouts, two-seaters underwent the same engine modification by mid-1918.

 

 

From the FC store page:

  •  Also includes the Fokker D.VIIF, Bristol Fighter F.III and Halberstadt CL.II 200hp engine modifications.
Edited by Hellbender

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Well, I've suspended my online play until the map is out so I guess it'll all come together at the right time.

Cheers HB. :)

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1 hour ago, Uffz-Prien said:

The same kind of question can be asked re DH2s and E1s, given that it's highly unlikely we'll ever see top-quality online servers giving us historically accurate early-war campaigns in which to use them.

 

Oh yea of little faith....

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2 minutes ago, J5_Baeumer said:

 

Oh yea of little faith....


Dude, bring it on! Masochist me, I'll happily do my duty and go up in an E1 against DH2s, day after day for weeks and months. But if not in MP I'd do it in SP. I used to be a fanatical role-player and even though that fire has waned somewhat with age I'd still jump back into it. :)

Edited by Uffz-Prien

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15 minutes ago, Uffz-Prien said:

Well, I've suspended my online play until the map is out so I guess it'll all come together at the right time.

Cheers HB. :)

 

Outside of the Thu and Sun night organised dogfights, there is little else to do on WW1 MP just now, closest thing to some action is Shooting Stars and even that ain't what it used to be in RoF.

We justy have to be patient and wait for the map, maybe then we won't have to fly 20 miles in a WW1 crate to find a dogfight.


S!

 

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11 minutes ago, Zooropa_Fly said:

 

Outside of the Thu and Sun night organised dogfights, there is little else to do on WW1 MP just now, closest thing to some action is Shooting Stars and even that ain't what it used to be in RoF.

We justy have to be patient and wait for the map, maybe then we won't have to fly 20 miles in a WW1 crate to find a dogfight.


S!

 

 

Except if you join a Discord or Team speak channel, we fly most nights atleats two upto five or more players each night, mostly fly on training server 72AG, starting from about 22:00 GMT

If anyone is interested, here is the discord channel i fly on and find MP FC opponents on, it has no FC Sqadrens, it is just a chat room to give a shout out if interested in FC MP flight.

All welcome !

 

The Irregulars

https://discord.gg/W9RV46p    ( if you already have discord just copy and paste address into discord )

Irregulars.jpg.d7648370d14f325791d82e4941df0d9c.jpg

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2 hours ago, Uffz-Prien said:

Oh, the F is going to be included in the $70 EA price? Then WTH are they doing giving us the porker at all?! Lol. That's got me completely baffled now. Why didn't they spend the time on doing the porker on the F instead? Weird.

 

Because the D.VII was part of the original Rise of Flight planset and yes, while the D.IIIa was not the main engine type in this particular plane, early versions were apparently fitted with it (from the research I've done). 

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16 hours ago, Uffz-Prien said:

Anyone who had any expectations the 'axis' forces would ever come out with the best plane in any of the IL2 modules (or tank for that matter) is probably smoking some pretty strong tobacco. Lol. Fokker D7 now, Fw190D next.
 

 

The Bf 109 K-4, specially with the 1.98 ata modification, is objectively the best fighter in the sim. The only plane that would dethrone it is a Spitfire Mk XIV with +21 boost.

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Is our Camel running a Bentley or is it supposed to be the Clerget 9b?  I'm still trying to figure out why it is so fast.

 

Very interested to see how much of a bump the BMW provides.  Sea level in RoF it pulls a little over 200 at sea level using altitude throttle IIRC.  When they put it in this sim I expect we'll see about 207-208 bearing in mind the small bump everything here (minus the pfalz) got.

Edited by hrafnkolbrandr

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