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smink1701

Please fix the NASCAR AI.

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Before you give us another plane, another map, another cool feature, another anything, please fix the constant turning, NASCAR-inspired AI.  In an otherwise amazing flight sim, there is nothing simulated about chasing the enemy in endless turns.  I played Cliffs recently and while there are many things about it that are dated, the AI is surprisingly realistic compared to BOM. I didn't say it's great, but at least it's passable.  I know it's very time intensive and expensive to address the AI problem but it is the elephant in the room and needs to be addressed.

 

Thank you.  

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In my experience the AI usually turn right................. I think NASCAR turns left.................  So this must be an Australian version of NASCAR!..............

 

But yes it does need to be fixed, the evasion tactics and formation flying are atrocious. 

 

jmtcw.............

 

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Right, left, whatever.  You get the point.  The endless turning does not simulate combat which is one of the main components of a combat flight simulator.  

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The AI continues to be a tricky issue and they have made some progress on some basic issues that have plagued us since the start. The AI are now pretty decent ground attackers and they do a good job of avoiding the ground now. Not perfect in that regard but then some human pilots aren't either.

 

The issue with the AI using a limited number of defensive tactics is definitely there. I hope there's time to add more to the repertoire over time.

 

What may not help get the point across is calling it NASCAR AI. One too far man. You'll only get backs up and loose the original meaning and point which IMHO is valid.

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16 minutes ago, ShamrockOneFive said:

The AI continues to be a tricky issue and they have made some progress on some basic issues that have plagued us since the start. The AI are now pretty decent ground attackers and they do a good job of avoiding the ground now. Not perfect in that regard but then some human pilots aren't either.

 

The issue with the AI using a limited number of defensive tactics is definitely there. I hope there's time to add more to the repertoire over time.

 

What may not help get the point across is calling it NASCAR AI. One too far man. You'll only get backs up and loose the original meaning and point which IMHO is valid.

The AI have improved in small but noticeable ways in air combat since I started playing, and that's only a year or so. AI will engage in scissors and vertical maneuvers, or even boom and zoom a bit, in the right circumstances. The problem is that once they get low they go luftberry circle on you, its just one of the limited routines. Il21946 is regularly praised for its AI, and it was good, but even then the routines could be predictable, and the 'AI cheats' separate simplified AI flight model produced some weird behaviour and frustrations and was routinely criticized with the same vehemence we see here about the AI in general.

Bottom line: They don't have an AI programmer. They're hard to come by - if they were easy to come by, other sims currently being developed would have better AI, but they don't. Cracking the AI system wide open without someone specializing in that is a recipe for disaster. If you think we have bugs now, wait until overworked programmers start wading through the guts of unfamiliar code.

I want great AI. A lot of people do. But slamming on the brakes on everything else won't get us good AI. It will get us a dead sim. 

The incremental improvements to AI are a safe bet to improve the play experience without introducing massive headaches in development, and it lets the dev cycle stay on track and keeps the programmers fed.

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Posted (edited)

It has been said that the AI doest not cheat like in the old IL2. But i dont understand why is that a problem? Why do we get a really bad (not cheating) AI instead of a good (cheating) AI. The AI in IL2 was good and it made a lot of fun. I support the request not to build many more planes, effects and maps. Make the AI cheating again and give us an AI that can compare to 18 years old standards. I am really sick of starting campaings and just flying in endless circles while mission passes over.

 

In 2001, with old IL2, we received an good and fun flying AI. I request that 777 thinks over its realistic non cheating AI to a non realistic flying AI that at the end behaves more like a realistic pilot then the currenct routines do.

Edited by JG27_Steini
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There were some updates to the AI, do you think they are trying to update AI without dedicated programer?

 

Current AI is good for bomber protection, once you engage enemy fighters they are gone, fighting near the ground :)

 

It will be very hard to have good AI.

 

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They’ve twiddled the knobs a bit lately with regards to lawn darting, but as the OP suggests, the interactivity with the player is still very much the same.  I don’t believe it is likely to change significantly however and the devs have indicated as much.  

 

 

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I think one of the reasons why AI in GB feels different is following: Its FM actually simulates best sustained turn speeds. (In 1946 the harder you pulled the better your turn rate was.) That (and simpler gunnery model) was the reason why such prolonged turning fights were rarer there. So I believe it's not just AI.

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I tried to enjoy Sea Dragon lately , but for some reason this time I cannot keep up with my wing leader. First time I flew it I had no such difficulty. At least in my memory. I guess something has happened with AI 

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20 minutes ago, 312_Lazy said:

I think one of the reasons why AI in GB feels different is following: Its FM actually simulates best sustained turn speeds. (In 1946 the harder you pulled the better your turn rate was.) That (and simpler gunnery model) was the reason why such prolonged turning fights were rarer there. So I believe it's not just AI.

 

That is completely wrong. 

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Everyone wants better AI, the developers are well aware of it, and if they had the means to really get to it they would. However, as has been mentioned over and over, they lack an AI coder on staff and, speaking as  a game developer, AI programming (let alone delving into someone elses AI code) is one of the trickiest things there is. Good AI coders are in extremely high demand and low supply, and finding one willing and capable of working on something so particular as a flight sim must be very difficult, especially on a project with slim profit margins that may render you unable to compete with others trying to hire those same people. 

 

Stopping development on Maps, Planes, FM's, Effects, campaigns--- ANYTHING else, would do absolutely nothing to speed up AI improvements. Think about it - An artist prevented from working on a map can't be retasked on AI. Keep raising the issue (politely) by all means, but please stay away from sweeping assumptions and inflammatory language. It will happen when they have the means.

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26 minutes ago, Luftschiff said:

Stopping development on Maps, Planes, FM's, Effects, campaigns--- ANYTHING else, would do absolutely nothing to speed up AI improvements.

 

I wish more people would realize this.

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But they are doing tank commanders and platoon leader ai right now - aren't they? So they DO have some kind of AI guy onboard. And if he is to tackle armored combat AI (which in my book seems harder to do properly than airial combat) then he hopefully knows his Job.

 

So I keep my hopes up, that after tank combat is done (and I also hope they take the time to do tank AI as good as possible!), maybe he could give the airial ai the overhaul it needs!

 

But noone can see the future ^^

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1 minute ago, Eisenfaustus said:

which in my book seems harder to do properly than airial combat)

I'd love to see your book....

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30 minutes ago, Eisenfaustus said:

But they are doing tank commanders and platoon leader ai right now - aren't they?

 

Tanks turn in circles too. :)

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Diggun said:

I'd love to see your book....

 

One thing that the AI of tanks and other ground weapon systems should take into account that does not affect air-air combat is the effect of terrain on line of sight.  This affects not only the detection of enemy and gunnery but more subtly tactical choices.  Good tank (and infantry) commanders use ground to try to get  optimum range engagements for their weapons, approaches to enemy positions covered from view, and know when being stationary is better than moving. 

 

Not sure I agree with @Eisenfaustus  that this is harder to program than air-air AI: but I am not convinced that it is easier either. It is just very different: I doubt that the game will do it well at platoon commander level, but it may be able to get the "wingtank" AI to an acceptable level under the tactical control of a human player.

Edited by unreasonable

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I’ll wait and see with Tank Crew etc. in case the gameplay turns out to be a swing and a miss. 

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, unreasonable said:

 

One thing that the AI of tanks and other ground weapon systems should take into account that does not affect air-air combat is the effect of terrain on line of sight.  This affects not only the detection of enemy and gunnery but more subtly tactical choices.  Good tank (and infantry) commanders use ground to try to get  optimum range engagements for their weapons, approaches to enemy positions covered from view, and know when being stationary is better than moving. 

 

Not sure I agree with @Eisenfaustus  that this is harder to program than air-air AI: but I am not convinced that it is easier either. It is just very different: I doubt that the game will do it well at platoon commander level, but it may be able to get the "wingtank" AI to an acceptable level under the tactical control of a human player.

Line of sight and spotting was modelled quite believably in Panzer Elite 20 years ago. Each crew member of the tank had his specific LOS depending in general on 3 conditions:

1. Design/construction restrictions of view slots/periscopes

2. Spotting as a skill of crew members

3. General coeficient of overall spotting/LOS abilities of each individual tank (tanks with commander cupola were better then those without, buttoned-up vs open hatch etc...)

Hiding behind terrain features or buildings without being spotted was  essential for gameplay. Especially if you were sherman commander creeping on or trying to avoid tigers 😁

Edited by Brano
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The reason the P47 is worthless as a dog fighter in BOM is that combat pilots were able to sneak up on their prey and they never knew what hit them. In this game the moment you get behind an enemy they go into NASCAR mode the fight and fun are over.  This problem can be fixed but if you tell the developers you are content with mediocre AI that’s exactly what we’ll get. 

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2 hours ago, unreasonable said:

 

One thing that the AI of tanks and other ground weapon systems should take into account that does not affect air-air combat is the effect of terrain on line of sight.  This affects not only the detection of enemy and gunnery but more subtly tactical choices.  Good tank (and infantry) commanders use ground to try to get  optimum range engagements for their weapons, approaches to enemy positions covered from view, and know when being stationary is better than moving. 

 

Not sure I agree with @Eisenfaustus  that this is harder to program than air-air AI: but I am not convinced that it is easier either. It is just very different: I doubt that the game will do it well at platoon commander level, but it may be able to get the "wingtank" AI to an acceptable level under the tactical control of a human player.

It was just an estimate because I have seen decent airial combat AI while I never found any good tank AI. And that exactly because of the point you stated - using the terrain to your advantage and making corresponding tactical calls seems to me harder than similar tactical decisions in the air. But having served in the infantry I'm obviously biased and can be completely wrong ^^

However I would love if (big IF here) the PL AI turns great we get a flightleader AI as well - having the AI using airial group tactics instead of each plane fighting on it's own and cooperation being purely incidental would add a great deal of immersion to SP and COOP gameplay, I believe...

 

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Yesterday, after several months, I tried to play a 1vs1 against AI in 1946. While I still play it regularly, its just to fly around and not to fight nor ground attack. But I finally decided that I wanted to fight again in there, and tried the classic 109 G-2 vs Yak1b.

 

Man, the maneuvers that little rat did... were something too difficult to manage for me. They were unpredictable, and challenging. Finally I landed some shots in his plane (that totally rekt him).

 

 

The day I see that AI in BoX, then it will become the best game/sim of all genres of all times.

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Sorry to hijack the thread but,

 

While the "combat tactics" routine of the AI could certainly use some attention, I would love to see the "decision making" and "own side player interaction" routines see some more love first.

I would love to be able to communicate in a more robust fashion to the AI on my side, especially my own flight...um, I'm out of fuel, going home, I need help, form up you morons, return to base the stupid mission is over let that loan bandit that is trying to rtb go, etc.....

I would love to see my own team and the enemy team AI make better RTB decisions.  Why does one loan enemy hound me over 10-20km to my base only to be shot down by my anti-aircraft batteries?....Why does my flight stay on station just because there is an enemy hanging around, when the mission is complete....PLEASE try to extricate yourself so we can complete the mission as a flight!!!!  (A lot of the time, they aren't even actively engaging because neither the AI on my side nor the enemy AI has ammunition left - they are just flying around each other.)

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3 hours ago, smink1701 said:

if you tell the developers you are content with mediocre AI that’s exactly what we’ll get

 

And no one is saying that. They are quite aware that people want better AI. 

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28 minutes ago, LukeFF said:

 

And no one is saying that. They are quite aware that people want better AI. 

 

Exactly.

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7 hours ago, Eisenfaustus said:

But they are doing tank commanders and platoon leader ai right now - aren't they? So they DO have some kind of AI guy onboard. And if he is to tackle armored combat AI (which in my book seems harder to do properly than airial combat) then he hopefully knows his Job.

 

So I keep my hopes up, that after tank combat is done (and I also hope they take the time to do tank AI as good as possible!), maybe he could give the airial ai the overhaul it needs!

 

But noone can see the future ^^

  Everyone knows the ai is broken. I would like the developers to say we are taking steps to fix it  and it’s a priority over tanks, multiple versions of planes that already exist, new maps, etc.  Instead we hear there is no time or funds available to address the ai. 

When the core game is good, then move on to embellishments. 

 

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Hi,

 

Devs have said multiple times, they will take a look when posible.

 

If you opened this topic expecting a new answer other than that, there is no reason for the topic since it wont happen. When they do work on IA with a dedicated guy, we as customer will be the first to know.

 

Priority is to maintain cash flow so improvements can be done as any other business, the way for that in game industry is to release new things for people. Note that this is not EA or SEGA and even those sell DLC that should be ingame from the start to keep the cash flow, take a look at Total War games. 

 

Again, dev team had said multiple times the same and they are aware of the complains.

 

Locked

 

Haash

 

 

 

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